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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 1:30:16 AM
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Questioner1
Posts: 11
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I believe in free choice so long as it doesn't involve killing unborn babies. An abortion by definition means the removal of a fetus from the womb. If an abortion only involved transporting the fetus to another womb or artificial womb than I would consider it acceptable.
There are two situations where I would consider an abortion with the death of the unborn acceptable:
1.Removal of a fertilized egg within the first two weeks because it is undifferentiated and could turn out to be twins, etc. It is not an individual person yet. Early Christian theologians such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe a soul entered a fetus until after forty days . It was in the 19th century that Pope IX decided personhood begins at conception.
2. If a choice is made between saving the mother or the infant. An infant without a mother is more harmful than a woman without an infant. I don't believe abortions should be performed for the convenience of the mother. Also, I don't believe abortions should be performed for incest unless the pregnant girl is too small to give birth. AAnd I don't think an abortion should be performed because the unborn is considered defective..
3.I believe the decision to have an abortion is a spiritual and medical choice and should not be criminalized and/or supported with laws. It is like having a law that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus or Allah will go to prison!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 2:45:19 AM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2069
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Laguna Beach. Presently an Arizona desert dweller
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quote:
So at the very least you have to agree that the bible demonstrates that things in the womb are considered people.
Correct, the Bible does this without question.
quote:
Since the Bible doesn't address when personhood begins,
But it does give characteristic traits to an unborn child.
quote:
. . . I wouldn't say that the bible doesn't address it at all. The book of Genesis says that Adam "became a living soul" after he "breathed in his nostrils the breath of life."
The unborn don't breath air.
Hmmm but does the unborn " parasite " as you refer to them leap for joy?
" And it came about that when Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb... Luke 1:41
" For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy " Luke 1:44
The " baby leaped in my womb for joy " describes the unborn as a distinct person, able to feel "joy"
_____________________________
If you can't be thankful for what you receive, be thankful for what you escape.
"You are never more free than when you fulfill the plan God has for your life." Warren Wiersbe
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 6:06:00 AM
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dbark
Posts: 406
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From: Canada
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quote:
quote:
but it is, IMHO, clearly against what we are taught in the bible about love, selfishness, standing up for the helpless and innocent
If I may, this is way too general. Can you narrow down what you mean by what the bible "taught" in these categories that relate to abortion?
Well, since the bible does not specifically reference abortion we have to deal in generalities. This is not a cop-out as there are lots of things that we believe are immoral or wrong which the bible deals with only indirectly. Taking illicit drugs is not mentioned in the bible, but is widely viewed as a bad thing. Viewing pornography on the internet is also not mentioned, but ... you get the point hopefully. General principles are laid out for us regarding not living only to please ourselves and how we are to value other people - that to me includes babies.
Yes, I consider a fetus a baby - to me it is a ridiculous and sad world we live in where we can abort a baby with impunity up until the moment he/she is born, whereas a moment later if you did the same thing, you would end up in prison for a very long time and be loathed by society as a deranged murderer. Logically speaking, you must perform some pretty tough mental gymnastics to reconcile that in your mind as reasonable.
You mentioned that people want to turn it into a biblical issue and, to me, that's not really the point. It's not a biblical issue per se - it is a moral one. The question we all have to ask (and I mean all of us - both sides) is what makes a baby a baby? Who has the right to decide such a thing? What is life and when is life to be considered sacred? Who can give life and who can take it away?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 6:11:32 AM
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dbark
Posts: 406
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
I just had a thought that might change your mind
Thank you, but I am not looking to change my mind. My mind's made up. I just want to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue.
Hardly an ideal starting point for a discussion, wouldn't you say? What's the point of talking to anyone about anything if you are not willing to entertain the possibility of changing your mind?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 6:36:08 AM
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dbark
Posts: 406
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Besides - abortion laws and abortion are two separate issues.
Only for those who wish to rationalize their support for those who support abortion...
Then you believe in criminal charges for adultery and fornication then? Or are you just wishing to rationalize your support for those behaviours?
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 6:48:42 AM
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schtumpy
Posts: 900
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Indeed.
It does seem just a touch hypocritical when there is railing against the legalization of certain sins but not others.
To those of us who lament the encroachment of Sharia Law into Western societies must at least grant that their proponents act in a consistent manner.
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I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:32:14 AM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
That is a question for abortion supporters to ask of God when they stand before Him.
No, that is a question for Christians to answer here and now.
quote:
pbo
Isn't it rather hypocritical to favor abortion after you've already been born?
. . . Maybe if you are born male.
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ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
I meant it doesn't address the conception=person view that permeates. I'm not sure where it came from anyway. Do you know?
. . . Out of their hats, but not out of the bible. The traditional view used to be that 1st breath = person.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:37:09 AM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I am curious as to the reason for your post. I mainly ask because you specifically addressed some people from the forum.
. . . It started in another thread with them.
quote:
Is abortion against the bible? Yes.
Proof, please. I know of no biblical verses addressing abortion.
Since the unborn baby is alive, then any verses addressing the wrongful killing of humans would suffice.
quote:
quote:
Is abortion murder? Yes.
No. The legal definition of murder involves malicious intent. I can't imagine any woman getting an abortion out of malice for the fetus.
God's law always trumpts man's definition of a law.
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:38:42 AM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: texastweet
So 318, the first thing I would ask is why is your mind already closed?
. . . No- already made up.
quote:
When do you think life begins?
Not what I think: what does the bible say?
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Is it ok to destroy them up until they are out of the womb?
The law says not beyond the 1st trimester.
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The bible talks about being in the womb many times.
The bible talks about many things. Where does it tell us that abortion is murder?
quote:
So at the very least you have to agree that the bible demonstrates that things in the womb are considered people.
No, all I see in those verses is that God had a plan for those individuals once they got out of the womb.
quote:
To think one can support abortion and at the same time say they are Christian are simply deceiving themselves.
Scripture, please?
quote:
Maybe you agree with that episcopalian lesbian bishop who says abortion is a blessing...
. . . Maybe, whoever "that episcopalian lesbian bishop" is.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:39:53 AM
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raivyne
Posts: 883
Joined: 8/28/2008
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Abortion is an abomination IMO.
Every life form on this planet has beginning stages of development until they become fully mature. It doesn't make a rose bush less of a rose bush just because it's just popping through the soil and can't flower yet. Once the seed germinates it begins it's life cycle. It is the same with humans - once the egg is fertalized the life cycle has begun. Destroying that beginning life is just as murderous as destroying it outside the womb.
I'm absolutely appaled by the attitudes of so many with regards to life. I can't think of any issue aside from child molestation that makes me as angry as this form of child abuse. To deprive a little baby of nourishment is just unthinkable. Tossing them out like garbage... just utterly reprehensible.
_____________________________
Choice happens before the bedroom.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:46:54 AM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
Hmmm but does the unborn " parasite " as you refer to them leap for joy?
Maybe John the Baptist did; the rest do not.
Again, the medical defintion of parasite.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
The question we all have to ask (and I mean all of us - both sides) is what makes a baby a baby? Who has the right to decide such a thing?
What does the bible say?
quote:
What is life and when is life to be considered sacred?
Is human life ever sacred in scripture?
quote:
Who can give life and who can take it away?
We can. As Bill Cosby said, " I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it."
quote:
Hardly an ideal starting point for a discussion, wouldn't you say? What's the point of talking to anyone about anything if you are not willing to entertain the possibility of changing your mind?
I don't expect to change anyone's mind; why should you?
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:48:31 AM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
Abortion is an abomination IMO.
. . . In your opinion, but what does the bible say?
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:50:37 AM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Since the unborn baby is alive, then any verses addressing the wrongful killing of humans would suffice.
Wrong. The bible clearly separates human value under 30 days old.
quote:
God's law always trumpts man's definition of a law.
Which commandment forbids abortion?
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:56:39 AM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Questioner1
There are two situations where I would consider an abortion with the death of the unborn acceptable:
1.Removal of a fertilized egg within the first two weeks because it is undifferentiated and could turn out to be twins, etc. It is not an individual person yet.
And this proves that this still is not a living child/soul how? What if this will not be twins? Then would you say this is an individual person? Just because humans can not fully understand how something may occur does not mean it does not occur.
quote:
Early Christian theologians such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas did not believe a soul entered a fetus until after forty days . It was in the 19th century that Pope IX decided personhood begins at conception. First of all, using the word "personhood" is just playing word games. There is either a life present or there is not. Secondly, What exactly is your point? Who is to say which were correct? There are very good reasons to believe that a life begins at conception. Since this is a human life, should not the decision be to err on the side of caution?
quote:
3.I believe the decision to have an abortion is a spiritual and medical choice and should not be criminalized and/or supported with laws. It is like having a law that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus or Allah will go to prison!
No it is not. How is having a law to protect a human life (the baby's) similar to having a law against not believing in Jesus or Allah?
< Message edited by CCCdnt -- 4/3/2009 10:03:13 AM >
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:02:26 AM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Since the unborn baby is alive, then any verses addressing the wrongful killing of humans would suffice.
Wrong. The bible clearly separates human value under 30 days old.
Chapter(s) and verse(s) please.
quote:
quote:
God's law always trumpts man's definition of a law.
Which commandment forbids abortion?
Again, any verses addressing the wrongful killing of humans.
Also, I saw in other posts where you said that your mind is made up. That being the case, why would you care what other Christians believe about this? I could see you commenting on a thread already in progress but you started this thread. It would seem that your only intent here is to debate (not seek knowledge of any kind - kind of like a person that does not believe in God who comes to this forum simply to attack what Christians believe) or to try to change the minds of Christian who are pro-life. Unless you can explain otherwise, discussion about this with you is pointless.
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:06:40 AM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
Thank you, but I am not looking to change my mind. My mind's made up. I just want to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue.
If that were true, then why are you debating the answers that are being given? If you truly just wanted "to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue", then why did you just not start a thread asking that specific question and then read the answers? It seems to me that you just want to debate.
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:08:57 AM
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GodsMusic
Posts: 713
Joined: 4/3/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
Which commandment forbids abortion?
Thou shalt not kill.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:26:14 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
Then you believe in criminal charges for adultery and fornication then? Or are you just wishing to rationalize your support for those behaviours?
In what manner? I don't recall voting for support of such things... But by all means show how support for abortion laws/rights isn't support abortion itself... Is this about being "personally " against it but not against a law forbidding it?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:32:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
You mentioned that people want to turn it into a biblical issue and, to me, that's not really the point. It's not a biblical issue per se - it is a moral one. The question we all have to ask (and I mean all of us - both sides) is what makes a baby a baby? Who has the right to decide such a thing? What is life and when is life to be considered sacred? Who can give life and who can take it away?
Taking life without just cause is certainly a biblical issue... So is using the bible to justify it for those that so...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:37:18 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
.
Again, the medical defintion of parasite.
That pig isn't flying no matter how high you toss it....Of course there is some irony in the fact that many of the folks you called needy in another thread can have the same word attached to them as well...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:38:26 AM
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texastweet
Posts: 399
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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318
quote:
Not what I think: what does the bible say?
It was a simple question, but of course your position cannot be examined since your mind is already made up and we wouldn't want facts getting in the way.
quote:
The law says not beyond the 1st trimester.
Like this un-fact. I am unsure of what law you are talking about? Abortions happen at every stage.
quote:
Where does it tell us that abortion is murder?
Where does it say that I shouldn't get addicted to drugs? Where does it say not to drive 100mph through school zone? So is your approach to say that if it is not specifically addressed in a 2000 yr old book then we are free to do it?
Don't you think Christ valued life? I assume you think killing people is wrong and the bible demonstrates this. So the real question is therefore, when does life begin? So that is why I asked what you think. It doesn't matter that the word "abortion" isn't in the bible.
quote:
Scripture, please?
Why? You already have your mind made up and any principles derived from scripture you obviously can simply dismiss.
quote:
Maybe, whoever "that episcopalian lesbian bishop" is.
Google it. The goal of the choice crowed is unrestricted abortions and even some have said you should have a couple months after birth to make up your mind. Is that the kind of people you like to hang out with?
Otis
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:40:17 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
Thank you, but I am not looking to change my mind. My mind's made up. I just want to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue.
If that were true, then why are you debating the answers that are being given? If you truly just wanted "to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue", then why did you just not start a thread asking that specific question and then read the answers? It seems to me that you just want to debate.
More like flaunt.... Strange this forum comes down heavy on those who promote homosexuality, but gives a voice to those who support the murder of the unborn, and not simply for whomever, but those who claim the name of Jesus Christ...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:48:34 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Questioner1
I believe in free choice so long as it doesn't involve killing unborn babies. An abortion by definition means the removal of a fetus from the womb. If an abortion only involved transporting the fetus to another womb or artificial womb than I would consider it acceptable.
There are two situations where I would consider an abortion with the death of the unborn acceptable:
quote:
2. If a choice is made between saving the mother or the infant. An infant without a mother is more harmful than a woman without an infant.
Strange thoughts... I have four children... If I "saved myself" and my children died from my efforts to "save myself" I doubt many folks would think I loved my children, but that I loved "myself" far, far more...
quote:
3.I believe the decision to have an abortion is a spiritual and medical choice and should not be criminalized and/or supported with laws. It is like having a law that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus or Allah will go to prison!
Given how things work the above allows for abortions to take place up to the moment of the children coming out the birth canal....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:58:13 AM
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raivyne
Posts: 883
Joined: 8/28/2008
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quote:
In your opinion, but what does the bible say?
The bible says to love others above yourself for one. Who is being loved when there is an abortion?
It also says not to murder. Stopping the life cycle of an infant is murder - no matter when it is stopped.
It also says we were formed in the womb. Job 3:11 says "Why did I not perish at birth, and die as I came from the womb?" At birth, not after. You must live before you can die. Job 10:19 says "If only I had never come into being, or had been carried straight from the womb to the grave!" No existance or death (at birth again) is what he was wishing for, it is safe to deduce that inside the womb is being - life.
You ask for a verse that contains the word abortion. You choose to not put abortion the category of murder.
Many ask for exact wording or numbers in the bible so that they can justify their choices, habits or beliefs. What they fail to realize is that the bible as a complete context is just as important and clear as specific words. The bible as a whole speaks of selfless love.
What kind of selfless love is it to stop the cycle of human life?
< Message edited by raivyne -- 4/3/2009 11:05:36 AM >
_____________________________
Choice happens before the bedroom.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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