|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 1:47:42 PM
|
|
|
dbark
Posts: 406
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
Then you believe in criminal charges for adultery and fornication then? Or are you just wishing to rationalize your support for those behaviours?
In what manner? I don't recall voting for support of such things... But by all means show how support for abortion laws/rights isn't support abortion itself... Is this about being "personally " against it but not against a law forbidding it?
You didn't answer the question. Should there be laws enforcing all of our morals? I'm not saying that there shouldn't be abortion laws, what I did say is that abortion laws and abortion are two separate issues - and they are.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 1:56:56 PM
|
|
|
dbark
Posts: 406
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
The question we all have to ask (and I mean all of us - both sides) is what makes a baby a baby? Who has the right to decide such a thing?
What does the bible say?
quote:
What is life and when is life to be considered sacred?
Is human life ever sacred in scripture?
quote:
Who can give life and who can take it away?
We can. As Bill Cosby said, " I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it."
quote:
Hardly an ideal starting point for a discussion, wouldn't you say? What's the point of talking to anyone about anything if you are not willing to entertain the possibility of changing your mind?
I don't expect to change anyone's mind; why should you?
With all due respect to Bill Cosby - he was wrong. We have nothing to do with creating life - we cannot create it, nor do we have the right to take it away ... especially without cause. God creates life - He alone breathes life into our bodies.
I don't go into a discussion expecting to change someone else's mind - but I do allow for the possibility of having my mind changed. If you don't enter conversations with at least the possibility of changing your own mind - you will never learn anything and talking is pointless for everyone involved. Looks like that is likely the case here in this thread.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 2:43:10 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
You didn't answer the question. Should there be laws enforcing all of our morals?
I'm not aware that being against a form of murder is attempting to enact a moral code on the masses... Sorry, but this is just an attempt to justify being both for and against something... I have been down this road...
If this is an issue you should be against most laws...
quote:
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be abortion laws, what I did say is that abortion laws and abortion are two separate issues - and they are.
Only for those who wish to believe they can support the right to murder the child in one place and post here they are against abortion...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 4:11:59 PM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I'm not aware that being against a form of murder is attempting to enact a moral code on the masses...
Ok.
So I'm assuming that the holy grail is to have human life defined as beginning at conception and for any taking of that life at any time to be defined as murder.
So where do you go from there?
Do you take every teenage girl who procures an abortion and try her for murder?
Every mother who does so because she can't feed the ones she has?
And if not, why not?
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 4:53:39 PM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 1139
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
quote:
Do you take every teenage girl who procures an abortion and try her for murder?
That sounds like a good idea. Why not?
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 4:54:55 PM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 1139
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
quote:
Every mother who does so because she can't feed the ones she has?
There is NO mother in the Western world so poor she cannot feed her children. Much poorer mothers in other parts of the world manage.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 4:57:58 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 883
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Do you take every teenage girl who procures an abortion and try her for murder?
Every mother who does so because she can't feed the ones she has?
How about we try and stop unwanted pregnancies before they happen instead?
p.s. if the woman can afford to abort her baby, she can afford to get some sort of birth control. no sympathy for her, sorry.
babies are not mistakes. having irresponsible sex is the mistake.
_____________________________
Choice happens before the bedroom.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 5:16:31 PM
|
|
|
DougHorton
Posts: 1139
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
quote:
p.s. if the woman can afford to abort her baby, she can afford to get some sort of birth control. no sympathy for her, sorry.
True. Abortions cost more than birth control. From the providers point of view, there is much more money to be made in giving abortions than in birth control. The plea to poverty is a deflated balloon.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 6:21:54 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
So I'm assuming that the holy grail is to have human life defined as beginning at conception and for any taking of that life at any time to be defined as murder.
Wouldn't anything less be, "barbaric"?
quote:
So where do you go from there?
Do you take every teenage girl who procures an abortion and try her for murder?
Every mother who does so because she can't feed the ones she has?
Hardly the common reasons for aboritons....
quote:
And if not, why not?
I have no issue with charging those who murder the unborn with murder... Doesn't it seem hypocritical to charge those who murder outside the womb with a crime? For that matter Scott Peterson was charged with double murder for his unborn son here in California where abortion is more than readily available.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 6:45:56 PM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: online
|
Capital punishment for those who procure abortions?
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 9:34:10 PM
|
|
|
sharonjef2007
Posts: 2302
Joined: 4/10/2007
Status: offline
|
Honestly, I can't say when life begins and when it does not. If you talk about the scripture about knowing the number of hairs on your head before you were born, then you could call users of birth control just as guilty as someone who has an abortion. I mean, if you use birth control and don't allow a pregnancy that God wants.....really how is it any different?
Here is the reality of this situation.....The Bible does say say "Abortion is ok or is a sin." With other issues like this one, each of us needs to go to God, take HIS guidance on the situation and then we will ALL have to answer for that.
And, I happen to think that the people who are so amazingly uncaring, unloving and un-Jesus like about how they treat women who are considering or who have had abortions are guilty of a whole other set of sins. And really, aren't all sins seen the same in the sight of God?
_____________________________
my blog......Picture This.......
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:14:19 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
Capital punishment for those who procure abortions?
If I paid someone to murder another person I believe they would charge with me murder as well...Kinda ironic that murder for hire outside the womb is generally consider pretty heinous... Downright barbaric, wouldn't you say?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:30:55 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
Here is the reality of this situation.....The Bible does say say "Abortion is ok or is a sin." With other issues like this one, each of us needs to go to God, take HIS guidance on the situation and then we will ALL have to answer for that.
So all one has to is word things in such a way to avoid a direct command in God's word and presto we are all the judge of right and wrong?
quote:
And, I happen to think that the people who are so amazingly uncaring, unloving and un-Jesus like about how they treat women who are considering or who have had abortions are guilty of a whole other set of sins.
Hmmmm.... Let's play with that... I walk upon a skinhead in the park with a Louisville Slugger who is about to bash in the head of a newborn who he doesn't want to hear crying anymore, it's not his kid... Should I calmly address the situation, not wanting to offend the man of course and mention that God may or may not(don't want to offend those who believe God doesn't issue with such actions...) be pleased with what he's about to do? I mean I could consider that at least this guy isn't seeking to pay someone to murder his own flesh and blood like those who seek abortions... And his selfishness for why he's going to kill the child isn't really any greater than the more common reason for abortions... Now I wouldn't be much of man of Christ if I didn't put myself between him and the child, right? Even to the point of causing harm to him? Now of course you can point out some scenario regarding abortion where in fact the person having the person is in part a victim as well, yet that is not the rule, but exception, and even where it looks like the person has valid reasons, that doesn't grant permission or relief for the act...
quote:
And really, aren't all sins seen the same in the sight of God?
Christ told Pilate others had a greater sin than his... Said it would have been better had Judas not been born... There is the sin that won't be forgiven, and there is the following....
Matt 18:6
"But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
While on one hand sin is sin, yet there are things that seem to offend more than others...
The bottom line.... Anything not done in faith is a sin... I can't see abortion finding it's way into something being done in faith....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 10:35:56 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
I said it about 8 years ago on an abortion thread on this forum and I feel the need to repeat...
Arguing abortion like there is some middle ground is like standing outside a death camp trying to find a acceptable number of people to bake or gas...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 3:10:15 AM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
Capital punishment for those who procure abortions?
If I paid someone to murder another person I believe they would charge with me murder as well...Kinda ironic that murder for hire outside the womb is generally consider pretty heinous... Downright barbaric, wouldn't you say?
So just to be clear.
You support the trial of a woman who procures an abortion for murder.
And you think the prosecutor arguing for the death penalty in such a case is reasonable.
Would you even argue that it is God's Will that such a penalty should be sought?
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 12:28:34 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
So just to be clear.
You support the trial of a woman who procures an abortion for murder.
Yes, I would support charges to filed against a person who seeks to pay another person to murder another person, and in this case the person's own child.... Just to be clear... Isn't that a barbaric thing, a mother(and I use that term loosely) seeking to murder their own flesh a blood...
quote:
And you think the prosecutor arguing for the death penalty in such a case is reasonable.
It's a murder for hire case, sure...Against a helpless individual who there can be no just cause to held against to warrant the death penalty...
quote:
Would you even argue that it is God's Will that such a penalty should be sought?
God said those who don't take of their family are worse than the infidel.... Paying someone to murder your unborn child falls under that verse, among others... God's will is that those who don't honor that parents should be put to death... I can't see how seeking to hire someone to murder your unborn child would get any less.
So just to be clear. Given your questions are you in favor of abortion, or the right to have one...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 4:18:54 PM
|
|
|
deermousie
Posts: 2218
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: online
|
American law is based on Old Testament Law and has been rendered into Common Law (established by courts). Smart, since God thought it up (in Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).
Murder is unlawful killing of a human being with malice aforethought.
It's divided into four categories:
(1) intentional murder;
(2) a killing that resulted from the intent to do serious bodily injury;
(3) a killing that resulted from a depraved heart or extreme recklessness; and
(4) murder committed by an Accomplice during the commission of, attempt of, or flight from certain felonies.
(from http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Third-degree+murder)
Is abortion murder? That is answered by looking at the definition of Common Law - did the abortionist plan ahead to kill the child? Did he mean to kill the child? Is the mother an accomplice of killing the child?
Looks like murder in the first degree to me.
Is a preborn child alive? In American courts, a person can be declared dead with the cessation of brain waves.
A 28 day old human preborn has brain waves.
It used to be that when the heart stops was consided death .
A 24 day old human preborn has a heart beat, often before the mother knows she is even pregnant.
People are starting to cringe if their ancestors had anything to do with the slave trade that ended in the American South in 1863. The Bible calls that "man stealing" and the OT punishment was death (so you know what God thought of it).
In the future, how many people will be covering up that their ancestor aborted a child?
What is worse - to cruelly deprive a person of freedom or scrape/cut them up alive without pain medication and deprive them of life?
To balance this, the person (and there have been many) who confesses to God they aborted a child and repents of it receives God's forgiveness just like the rest of us forgiven sinners. God is so awesome!
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 4:20:48 PM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
So just to be clear. Given your questions are you in favor of abortion, or the right to have one...
I'd hate to think of anyone beng in favour (pardon the Australian spelling) of abortion.
Horrible.
But, I do not think personhood starts at conception.
I do not think it's murder.
And I definitely cast myself in the "cast the first stone category".
That is, I don't like to judge anybody's actions when I can't see inside their heads.
I'd prefer to let God do that.
I think he's more qualified.
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 4:27:37 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
I'd hate to think of anyone beng in favour (pardon the Australian spelling) of abortion.
Horrible.
But, I do not think personhood starts at conception.
I do not think it's murder.
And I definitely cast myself in the "cast the first stone category".
That is, I don't like to judge anybody's actions when I can't see inside their heads.
I'd prefer to let God do that.
I think he's more qualified.
If it's not murder, then why would it be horrible to be in favor of it?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 6:23:48 PM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: online
|
Something doesn't have to be murder to be horrible.
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 6:43:12 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
I'd hate to think of anyone beng in favour (pardon the Australian spelling) of abortion.
Horrible.
Why? It's not murder, it's not a person that is being snuffed out... What is horrible about being for abortion?
quote:
But, I do not think personhood starts at conception.
I do not think it's murder.
And I definitely cast myself in the "cast the first stone category".
I hope so, since there is nothing wrong with act according to you...
quote:
That is, I don't like to judge anybody's actions when I can't see inside their heads.
I'd prefer to let God do that.
I think he's more qualified.
Roughly 3000 murdered unborn children daily isn't evidence enough? Not barbaric enough? Maybe if they stack them like cord wood people would could fathom the horror...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 6:44:53 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
Something doesn't have to be murder to be horrible.
What is the horror of abortion? You have sanitized it to the point it's really strange to consider you'd mention horror regarding it..
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 6:52:29 PM
|
|
|
McFatty
Posts: 879
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
|
The Bible says that God created each person and knew them while they were still in the womb. The Bible says that murder is sinful. What's the complication?
_____________________________
"O LORD, You have pleaded my soul's cause; You have redeemed my life." - Lamentations 3:58
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
