|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 11:32:05 PM
|
|
|
deermousie
Posts: 2218
Joined: 9/26/2007
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
I do not think it's murder.
And if law was based on everyone's opinion, I could take your life and who could say it was wrong?
Thank God He gives us absolute values. Life is not death, humans are not kittens. Murder means taking an innocent life by planning for it - either they planned it or they didn't. There's no opinion here.
quote:
And I definitely cast myself in the "cast the first stone category".
That is, I don't like to judge anybody's actions when I can't see inside their heads.
I'd prefer to let God do that.
I think he's more qualified.
And God said for His people Proverbs 24:11, 12
Rescue those being led away to death;
hold back those staggering toward slaughter. If you say, "But we knew nothing about this,"
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who guards your life know it?
Will he not repay each person according to what he has done?
In OT times, the religious structure God built was also the civil structure, and execution was allowed for wicked people whose evil could spread to the rest of the country. God said to stone wicked people and protect the innocent ones. How much more innocent than a babe inside its mother's body? It was and is a great evil to murder innocent people.
Only the civil government has the right to execute, and that is meant only for evil people.
------------------------------------------
A non-exhaustive list of verses on what God thinks about killing innocent people:
Exodus 23:7 do not kill the innocent
Deuteronomy 19:10
lest innocent blood be shed in the midst of your land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, and thus guilt of bloodshed be upon you.
Deuteronomy 19:13
you shall put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel, that it may go well with you.
Deuteronomy 21:9
So you shall put away the guilt of innocent blood from among you when you do what is right in the sight of the LORD.
Deuteronomy 27:25
‘Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay an innocent person.’
Psalm 10:8
[The wicked] sits in the lurking places of the villages;In the secret places he murders the innocent
Ps. 106
37 They even sacrificed their sons
And their daughters to demons,
38 And shed innocent blood,
The blood of their sons and daughters,
Whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan;
And the land was polluted with blood.
Prov. 6:
16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
Isaiah 59:7
Jeremiah 2:34
Jeremiah 7:6
Jeremiah 19:4
Jeremiah 22:3
Jeremiah 22:17
Joel 3:19
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
"Federal Husband" by Doug Wilson
www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/4/2009 11:46:55 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Bible says that God created each person and knew them while they were still in the womb. The Bible says that murder is sinful. What's the complication?
In my years I have heard the following reasons...
Free Will
Christian Liberty
God's will
I am against it, but for the rights of other to have one
God killed children even in the womb
They all go to heaven so what's the the big deal
What is killed is not human
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 1:15:23 AM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Something doesn't have to be murder to be horrible.
If it's not a person, it is the equivalent of having one's tonsils removed; why would that be horrible?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 2:40:30 AM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Something doesn't have to be murder to be horrible.
If it's not a person, it is the equivalent of having one's tonsils removed; why would that be horrible?
I don't recall saying that it was the same as having one's tonsils removed.
I said I can't judge someone when I can't see inside their head.
That judging someone was more God's role than my own.
I am not qualified.
I am qualified to give compassion.
Not judgement.
The people I know who have had abortions have to a woman thought the process and the decisions leading to the process were horrible.
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 3:00:54 AM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
I don't recall saying that it was the same as having one's tonsils removed.
I said I can't judge someone when I can't see inside their head.
That judging someone was more God's role than my own.
I am not qualified.
I am qualified to give compassion.
Not judgement.
The people I know who have had abortions have to a woman thought the process and the decisions leading to the process were horrible.
So you are saying you personally don't think it's horrible, just that some do?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 3:17:12 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
The people I know who have had abortions have to a woman thought the process and the decisions leading to the process were horrible.
Not "horrible" enough to not hire someone to murder their own flesh and blood...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 4:52:25 AM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I don't recall saying that it was the same as having one's tonsils removed.
I said I can't judge someone when I can't see inside their head.
That judging someone was more God's role than my own.
I am not qualified.
I am qualified to give compassion.
Not judgement.
The people I know who have had abortions have to a woman thought the process and the decisions leading to the process were horrible.
So you are saying you personally don't think it's horrible, just that some do?
I do think it's horrible.
I said quote:
I'd hate to think of anyone beng in favour (pardon the Australian spelling) of abortion.
Horrible.
And that's it.
I think I'm done with you on the subject.
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 4:56:52 AM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
The people I know who have had abortions have to a woman thought the process and the decisions leading to the process were horrible.
Not "horrible" enough to not hire someone to murder their own flesh and blood...
And, again, these people have not thought that the foetus (again pardon the Australian spelling) had attained personhood and therefore could not be murdered.
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 11:00:38 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
And, again, these people have not thought that the foetus (again pardon the Australian spelling) had attained personhood and therefore could not be murdered.
People will and have rationalize anything... Wasn't ok to kill the indigenous people of your land because they wee thought to be less than?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 8:27:50 PM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: schtumpy
And, again, these people have not thought that the foetus (again pardon the Australian spelling) had attained personhood and therefore could not be murdered.
People will and have rationalize anything... Wasn't ok to kill the indigenous people of your land because they wee thought to be less than?
Yes, that was precisely the rationalization of that attempted genocide.
The aborigines were deemed to be less than people.
In fact, the British (who made a Treaty with the Indigenous Polynesians of New Zealand) did not do so in Australia because it was deemed to be Terra Nullus - land without people.
Most attempted genocides from the Amelikites to the Bosnian Muslims have had some sort of rationalization behind them.
In the case of the aborigines, that rationalization was not religious.
Our current government is attempting to address this (and other) barbaric atrocities in our past.
This has nothing to do with the debate over the personhood of embryos though.
Why do those who propose that abortion is murder - and argue for the indictment of those women who procure them - not also rail against IVF clinics?
Why aren't IVF clinics also picketed or worse?
And how can a candidate who is pro-choice be unelectable to the Faithful yet one who advocates IVF be fine?
Just wondering.....
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 8:48:51 PM
|
|
|
solo_soprano23
Posts: 2082
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
|
We've discussed the IVF aspect in CE. Honestly, I think because babies come of it, (prolife) people don't often see the wrong with it. A couple can have babies via IVF, while tossing others down the drain. (And, tossing goes on often.) I just wonder why there isn't such an outcry against IVF; the only thing I can see is that babies DO come from it (with the help of it, I should say).
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/5/2009 9:53:34 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
I do think it's horrible.
Well then your position is quite confused, because if you don't think it is a person, than it is just an unwanted growth of cells. The only horrid thing about thinking that is horrible is the horrid logic employed to come to such a conclusion.
Either it's a person and horrible, or it's not a person and not horrible at all; the removal of unwanted tissue from one's body is never 'horrible' no matter how 'compassionate' someone claims to be.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 12:11:50 AM
|
|
|
Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
|
This is my one and only post in this thread.
If you claim Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and can not tell that killing a human child is wrong, then you are either lying about your conversion or so apostate I doubt any argument form man or woman would convince you otherwise.
Life is sacred. It is given by God. It can be forfeited through the commission of various barbarous acts. An unborn child can not do this. One may choose to murder, an unborn child does not ask to be given life.
There is debate on when life begins? Simple, at conception. Dead matter does not reproduce. If cells divide, it is alive. So other debates arise trying to differentiate between being a living human and "personhood." Life is sacred - not personhood, not when ensoulment happens, not whether or not a thing is viable.
If you perform an abortion you are murdering an unborn child. If you have an abortion then you have had your child murdered. To claim there is no biblical evidence against this would be laughable if it weren't so sad and dangerous. If you claim such you either do not read your Bible or do not take it seriously. In the USA we have killed more babies than Stalin and Hitler killed people in WWII.
Thankfully, true repentance means anyone can be forgiven and whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. There is forgiveness and redemption.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 5:32:20 AM
|
|
|
schtumpy
Posts: 900
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
Honestly, I think because babies come of it, (prolife) people don't often see the wrong with it. A couple can have babies via IVF, while tossing others down the drain. (And, tossing goes on often.) I just wonder why there isn't such an outcry against IVF; the only thing I can see is that babies DO come from it (with the help of it, I should say).
I agree.
There seems to be a great deal of cherry picking about what to get outraged about and what not - when the out come is just the same.
_____________________________
I deplore what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
- attributed to Voltaire
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 11:58:42 AM
|
|
|
318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
|
Okay, sorry everyone.
Here I'm the OP, and yet I can't seem to find adequate time to post timely, full replies. I have a few minutes right now, so I will hit a few of the main points/questions aimed at me and go from there . . .
_____________________________
Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 12:29:48 PM
|
|
|
318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Since the unborn baby is alive, then any verses addressing the wrongful killing of humans would suffice.
Wrong. The bible clearly separates human value under 30 days old.
Chapter(s) and verse(s) please.
Leviticus 27:6 "estimates" the monetary value (!) of children "from a month old even unto five years old." Apparently, children under one month of age had no value whatsoever.
quote:
Again, any verses addressing the wrongful killing of humans.
Wrong again. The bible is very specific about what constitutes the wrongful killing of individuals, and abortion is not addressed in any of them.
quote:
It would seem that your only intent here is to debate
So? What is wrong with that?
quote:
not seek knowledge of any kind
Not true. If there is something in the bible about abortion that I somehow missed, I would dearly like someone to point it out to me. If no one can, then I would equally like to know where this adamant "God is prolife" doctrine stems from.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Thou shalt not kill.
Wrong again. The sixth commandment is not an absolute prohibition. If it were, then the commandments that call for the death penalty would put God's law in contradiction with itself, as well as God's direct commands to wage war and utterly destroy whole cities down to every last man, woman, and child.
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
The bible says to love others above yourself for one. Who is being loved when there is an abortion?
Interestingly, the bible does not command parents to love their children. Likewise, there is no command to love one's unborn child.
quote:
It also says not to murder. Stopping the life cycle of an infant is murder - no matter when it is stopped.
I disagree. Until a baby viably draws breath for 30 days, it has not achieved personhood by biblical standards.
quote:
It also says we were formed in the womb.
This proves nothing. According to Genesis 2:7, "the Lord God FORMED man of the dust of the ground" before he breathed life into him and he became a living soul.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
With all due respect to Bill Cosby - he was wrong. We have nothing to do with creating life - we cannot create it, nor do we have the right to take it away
With all due respect to you, dbark, the vast majority of humanity has the power of procreation within their bodies, and we also have the power to end life whether or not we have the arguable right to do so.
quote:
If you don't enter conversations with at least the possibility of changing your own mind - you will never learn anything and talking is pointless for everyone involved.
Then why won't you do the same?
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
The Bible says that God created each person and knew them while they were still in the womb. The Bible says that murder is sinful. What's the complication?
I think that I have addressed the complications fairly well- thus far, anyway . . .
_____________________________
Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 1:48:55 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 883
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
The bible says to love others above yourself for one. Who is being loved when there is an abortion?
Interestingly, the bible does not command parents to love their children. Likewise, there is no command to love one's unborn child.
quote:
It also says not to murder. Stopping the life cycle of an infant is murder - no matter when it is stopped.
I disagree. Until a baby viably draws breath for 30 days, it has not achieved personhood by biblical standards.
quote:
It also says we were formed in the womb.
This proves nothing. According to Genesis 2:7, "the Lord God FORMED man of the dust of the ground" before he breathed life into him and he became a living soul.
1) The bible does command parents to love their children.
2) You completely misunderstand Leviticus. Not surprising.
3) The first man and woman were created just a tad different than the rest of them, fully formed from dust... duh.
_____________________________
Choice happens before the bedroom.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 3:09:06 PM
|
|
|
318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
1) The bible does command parents to love their children.
. . . Chapter and verse, please?
quote:
2) You completely misunderstand Leviticus. Not surprising.
. . . And yet you have failed to expound on the "correct" understanding of Leviticus 27:6.
quote:
3) The first man and woman were created just a tad different than the rest of them, fully formed from dust... duh.
The point remains that being formed by God does not in and of itself constitute a living soul.
_____________________________
Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 3:38:42 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
Wrong again. The bible is very specific about what constitutes the wrongful killing of individuals, and abortion is not addressed in any of them.
So any specific means not mentioned in the bible is not prohibited?
quote:
not seek knowledge of any kind
Not true. If there is something in the bible about abortion that I somehow missed, I would dearly like someone to point it out to me. If no one can, then I would equally like to know where this adamant "God is prolife" doctrine stems from.
quote:
Wrong again. The sixth commandment is not an absolute prohibition. If it were, then the commandments that call for the death penalty would put God's law in contradiction with itself, as well as God's direct commands to wage war and utterly destroy whole cities down to every last man, woman, and child.
I don't believe the commended was posted in context that all taking of life is equated to murder... Though you mentioning the distinction between taking life with just case and murder doesn't really help your case, even when referring to the unborn as a parasite...
quote:
Interestingly, the bible does not command parents to love their children. Likewise, there is no command to love one's unborn child.
How do you expel children from "others' in respect to how one is commanded to treat others?... And the bible speaks of those who don't take care of the family, as in regards to providing for them as being worse than the infidel... According to your logic it's ok to murder the child, but it's highly sinful to not provide for it?
quote:
With all due respect to you, dbark, the vast majority of humanity has the power of procreation within their bodies, and we also have the power to end life whether or not we have the arguable right to do so.
Apart from the will of God? As well the the consequences for unjustly taking life?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 3:53:29 PM
|
|
|
318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
This is my one and only post in this thread.
Well, I'll answer you anyway.
quote:
If you claim Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and can not tell that killing a human child is wrong
A potential human child; there is a difference.
quote:
then you are either lying about your conversion or so apostate I doubt any argument form man or woman would convince you otherwise.
This statement is a useless, baseless accusation that makes no argument at all.
quote:
Life is sacred.
Where does the bible say this?
quote:
It is given by God. It can be forfeited through the commission of various barbarous acts.
. . . And the bible is rife with examples of God commanding some of these acts.
quote:
One may choose to murder
But abortion isn't murder: not by biblical nor legal definitions.
quote:
There is debate on when life begins? Simple, at conception.
Conception takes days. At what point within this process does life begin?
quote:
If cells divide, it is alive.
But is it a living soul? What does the bible say?
quote:
Life is sacred - not personhood, not when ensoulment happens, not whether or not a thing is viable.
WDtBS?
quote:
If you perform an abortion you are murdering an unborn child. If you have an abortion then you have had your child murdered. To claim there is no biblical evidence against this would be laughable if it weren't so sad and dangerous.
. . . And yet, you provided not so much as one scripture to back your opinion with.
_____________________________
Brian
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 6:00:55 PM
|
|
|
Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Since the unborn baby is alive, then any verses addressing the wrongful killing of humans would suffice.
Wrong. The bible clearly separates human value under 30 days old.
Chapter(s) and verse(s) please.
Leviticus 27:6 "estimates" the monetary value (!) of children "from a month old even unto five years old." Apparently, children under one month of age had no value whatsoever.
You are taking this out of context. First of all, the first verse says that this is addressing making "difficult vows".
quote:
quote:
Again, any verses addressing the wrongful killing of humans.
Wrong again. The bible is very specific about what constitutes the wrongful killing of individuals, and abortion is not addressed in any of them.
The word abortion does not have to be in the Bible for the Bible to say it is wrong. All that is required is for the Bible to mention wrongful killing. In this case, if the unborn baby is a living human, then it would be wrong to kill the person. Can you prove that the unborn baby is not alive?
quote:
quote:
It would seem that your only intent here is to debate
So? What is wrong with that?
Well, since you have already said that your mind is made up and unchangeable on the subject, then why discuss it? When I ask a question, it is because I am seeking information about something of which I know very little or nothing or something I may have doubts about, etc. It appears as if your intent is just to "pick a fight".
quote:
quote:
not seek knowledge of any kind
Not true. If there is something in the bible about abortion that I somehow missed, I would dearly like someone to point it out to me.
Even if that were to happen, would you accept it? You have already said your mind is made up. With that attitude you are likely to see answers, etc. as you want to see them.
Also, in another post you said, "Thank you, but I am not looking to change my mind. My mind's made up. I just want to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue."
Again, if that were the case (you "just want to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue") and since "[you] am not looking to change [your] mind", then what would be the point of debating other than just to "fight"?
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 6:15:53 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
A potential human child; there is a difference.
If one is going to use a system of this nature isn't it fair to continue it outside the womb?
quote:
. . . And the bible is rife with examples of God commanding some of these acts.
Yes, God commanding such acts... Which of course is not a mandate...
quote:
But abortion isn't murder: not by biblical nor legal definitions.
Neither would be beating one to death with a baseball bat according to your logic.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
Even if it was, it's illegal to kill alligators. Yeah, I've heard these, too. 
I still think it's unethical. But I can see why people don't complain about it as much. 
