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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 6:57:39 PM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2082
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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Conception is a process that takes a while, 12 to 24 hours I believe-- it might be days; I can't remember. What people get in biology 101 is usually something like sperm finds an egg, they fuse and there's the embryo... which seems like it happens in a second or two. I think he was asking at what point durng the entire process would a "conceptionist" (made-up word) call what's there "life." I do hear things like "from the moment of conception," but, it's not instantaneous.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 7:39:30 PM
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jonfortean6
Posts: 1505
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From: Pennsylvania
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hey, peoples
well, i strongly believe that abortion is wrong. i believe that, if life begins at conception, then that would make abortion definitely wrong, because it would be clearly murder. well, i actually do believe that life begins at conception.
when i saw that this thread was posted, i began to do some research on abortion, considering carefully the arguments for both pro-life and pro-choice sides.
i came across an essay that i thought was really well done. it extols pro-life. it's worth the time.
here is the link, if anyone wants to read it:
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/arg-abor.html
(just copy and paste the link)
let me know what you think, and i'm interested to know what other arguments you have for either side.
In Christ,
~Jon
_____________________________
Why should I gain from His reward? I cannot give an answer. But this I know with all my heart: His wounds have paid my ransom.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 8:39:15 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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I knew I shouldn't even have started in this thread. Now I will go back on my word.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
A potential human child; there is a difference.
The DNA is human. The newly created life is not of mature age and, thus, a child. Where this child resides does not change the nature of what it is.
quote:
This statement is a useless, baseless accusation that makes no argument at all.
It is only useless and baseless if you are a liar or apostate who wishes to inject foolishness into a very clear issue.
quote:
Where does the bible say this?
Where does the Bible say life is sacred? Surely you can't be serious. From Cain slaying Abel to the cried of the martyrs in Revelation you have an entire body called scripture in which the taking of innocent life is condemned. Also note God's particular distaste (to put it mildly) for those nations who "passed their children through the fire" in sacrifice to Marduk and Baal.
How you can ask this with a straight face is beyond me.
quote:
. . . And the bible is rife with examples of God commanding some of these acts.
For the true student of scripture context is your friend. God commanded the punishment of people that had disobeyed Him or that had stood against His people. Likewise, He also saved and rewarded those who followed Him and helped His people.
What God does is just. Unless, of course, you feel yourself in the position to judge God.
quote:
But abortion isn't murder: not by biblical nor legal definitions.
It's life, it has done nothing to deserve death. It can not willingly forfeit its own life. It is murder biblically. I could care less about what the law says when placed against God's law. Slavery used to be legal, would you argue for that? I thought not.
You are being purposely obtuse.
quote:
But is it a living soul? What does the bible say?
I have never figured out just what this line of questioning is supposed to prove. The word translated "soul" is nephesh. It also is translated "living being" or "person." Man is composed of body, spirit, and soul. When God breathed life into Adam he became a living being, a person.
So, yes, it is a living soul in biblical terms. If it is alive, meaning cells are dividing and respiration is taking place, it is as God intended it to be. Even a rudimentary study would bear this out unless the search was for something other than truth. Parsing words to justify a point of view is not logically sound.
quote:
WDtBS?
You'll have to explain that one.
quote:
. . . And yet, you provided not so much as one scripture to back your opinion with.
For scriptural proof all you have to do is read the Bible without trying to prove your point. This argument is akin to a person running into a brick wall because their eyes are closed, yet denying the existence of the wall because they lack empirical proof. It is a stunningly ignorant argument and shows either a complete lack of knowledge of the subject or a deliberate attempt to cloud the issue.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/6/2009 11:00:29 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I disagree. Until a baby viably draws breath for 30 days, it has not achieved personhood by biblical standards.
Just to to pick one wrong statement out of a multitude, where did you come up with this?
The verse you horrible desecratd in you obtuse attempt to make a point was better understood by reading the whole passage, plus knowing a modicum of Biblical history:
Leviticus 27:1 - 8
Again, the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, 'When a man makes a difficult vow, he shall be valued according to your valuation of persons belonging to the LORD. 'If your valuation is of the male from twenty years even to sixty years old, then your valuation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.
'Or if it is a female, then your valuation shall be thirty shekels. 'If it be from five years even to twenty years old then your valuation for the male shall be twenty shekels and for the female ten shekels. 'But if they are from a month even up to five years old, then your valuation shall be five shekels of silver for the male, and for the female your valuation shall be three shekels of silver.
'If they are from sixty years old and upward, if it is a male, then your valuation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels. 'But if he is poorer than your valuation, then he shall be placed before the priest and the priest shall value him; according to the means of the one who vowed, the priest shall value him.
The value being derived here is the value of individuals dedicated to service in the sanctuary or to the preisthood (as Samuel was as a child); it had nothing to do with whtehr the child was living, and they waited thirty days to present a child for service in that respect. Why someone would use this in a discussion about abortion is beyond me.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 10:27:12 AM
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raivyne
Posts: 883
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
1) The bible does command parents to love their children.
. . . Chapter and verse, please?
quote:
2) You completely misunderstand Leviticus. Not surprising.
. . . And yet you have failed to expound on the "correct" understanding of Leviticus 27:6.
quote:
3) The first man and woman were created just a tad different than the rest of them, fully formed from dust... duh.
The point remains that being formed by God does not in and of itself constitute a living soul.
1) John 13:34 and Ephesians 6:4 for starters. The "message" of the bible is to love others (that's all others) above yourself.
2) See Jhud's post. thank you Jhud, now i dont' have to type it all out!
3) so where's the bible passage saying that we are formed outside the womb so that "life" can be breathed into us? Or do you suggest God goes around forming "hulls" and waiting to see the completion of our whims and fancies to instill life?
quote:
When I ask a question, it is because I am seeking information about something of which I know very little or nothing or something I may have doubts about, etc.
Sorry, but just so you know... you come off as if you think you already know it all and just wish everyone else to see their own folly for not agreeing with you.
_____________________________
Choice happens before the bedroom.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 12:29:21 PM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
When I ask a question, it is because I am seeking information about something of which I know very little or nothing or something I may have doubts about, etc.
Sorry, but just so you know... you come off as if you think you already know it all and just wish everyone else to see their own folly for not agreeing with you.
I think you misread that post. What you quoted is what I posted in response to 318.
I had said this to 318:
quote:
It would seem that your only intent here is to debate
To which he said this:
quote:
So? What is wrong with that?
To which I said this:
quote:
Well, since you have already said that your mind is made up and unchangeable on the subject, then why discuss it? When I ask a question, it is because I am seeking information about something of which I know very little or nothing or something I may have doubts about, etc. It appears as if your intent is just to "pick a fight".
I was asking 318 what the point of his thread was if his mind was already made up and it appeared he was not seeking knowledge and rather was just trying to debate/fight with those that disagreed with him.
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 12:51:30 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4632
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Conception is a process that takes a while, 12 to 24 hours I believe-- it might be days; I can't remember. The "process of conception" actually involves numerous steps, some of which occur in the mother over several weeks. The "process of fertilization" also occurs over time, usually several hours. Exactly when a new human being is produced from this process could be subject to debate, but the combining of parental DNA occurs rather quickly once the sperm fuses with the egg and the paternal chromatin penetrates into the egg's cytoplasm. It seems philosophically proper (at least to me) to consider that "moment" of a now living new human being to be congruent with the origin of the now unique human soul.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 2:04:30 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Conception is a process that takes a while, 12 to 24 hours I believe-- it might be days; I can't remember. The "process of conception" actually involves numerous steps, some of which occur in the mother over several weeks. The "process of fertilization" also occurs over time, usually several hours. Exactly when a new human being is produced from this process could be subject to debate, but the combining of parental DNA occurs rather quickly once the sperm fuses with the egg and the paternal chromatin penetrates into the egg's cytoplasm. It seems philosophically proper (at least to me) to consider that "moment" of a now living new human being to be congruent with the origin of the now unique human soul.
Yes. At that point you have complete human DNA and a living organism. Living tissue + human DNA = human being.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 2:29:37 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4632
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
Living tissue + human DNA = human being. Well, it's not quite that simple, Bro_Shane, but I do appreciate your vote of confidence. Many cells and tissues containing human DNA can be maintained artificially in a living state and no one would consider them an ensouled human being. I personally believe physicians and scientists will never precisely identify the when and how of "personhood", but that is exactly why we should all err on the side of very early in conception in order to maintain the tenets of sanctity of life and human dignity.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 3:02:19 PM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I personally believe physicians and scientists will never precisely identify the when and how of "personhood", but that is exactly why we should all err on the side of very early in conception in order to maintain the tenets of sanctity of life and human dignity.
I started a thread where I basically address this - erring on the side of caution. I am curious how those that are "pro-choice" will respond (if any of them respond at all).
_____________________________
http://www.abort73.com
See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 3:22:14 PM
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raivyne
Posts: 883
Joined: 8/28/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
quote:
When I ask a question, it is because I am seeking information about something of which I know very little or nothing or something I may have doubts about, etc.
Sorry, but just so you know... you come off as if you think you already know it all and just wish everyone else to see their own folly for not agreeing with you.
I think you misread that post. What you quoted is what I posted in response to 318.
Ahh, I just went back and looked... I wondered why that comment felt so alien coming from 318... Please disregard ^_^
_____________________________
Choice happens before the bedroom.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 3:29:07 PM
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tromo
Posts: 38
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quote:
Life is sacred.
Where does the bible say this?
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? 17If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 3:38:44 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Living tissue + human DNA = human being. Well, it's not quite that simple, Bro_Shane, but I do appreciate your vote of confidence. Many cells and tissues containing human DNA can be maintained artificially in a living state and no one would consider them an ensouled human being. I personally believe physicians and scientists will never precisely identify the when and how of "personhood", but that is exactly why we should all err on the side of very early in conception in order to maintain the tenets of sanctity of life and human dignity.
And neither would I consider any old batch of human cells kept alive a human being, but within the context of the subject the formula seemed appropriate.
I believe this is why scripture teaches life is sacred. When, exactly, a human has a soul is a mystery and God's business. Since we are not told when this occurs or how it is best to leave it alone.
My point is that scripture does not speak to personhood or ensoulment. It simply teaches life is sacred. Any argument that tries to figure this on those two ideas will lead nowhere as it's not the point.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 4:29:52 PM
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dboe
Posts: 130
Joined: 1/19/2009
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To the writer of this post, thank-you for being brave enough to post to a forum where your opinion is in the minority (believe it or not I know that feeling:) I think some responses to you have been a bit harsh and overly legalistic. I personally see nothing wrong in having a debate for the sake of a debate even if your mind IS made up, it only helps us grow in our journey. At least I feel it helps me to grow so thank-you. It is true you cannot find a Biblical "thou shalt not" for abortion, this upsets many people who are against it as you can see. I would encourage you to first, read through the Bible for yourself with the question prayerfully in mind, obviously God will give you better answers than these bloggers will (myself included) also, study the science of abortion and contraception and seek truth, the Bible DOES say that those who seek truth and seek God with all their hearts will find Him. Also, if you are curious about church and God, explore a church that is a thinking denomination, I know that Methodists and Free Methodists are part of that. We do not like to put our foot down on things which are not clearly stated without lengthy philosophical discussions, but decide for yourself. You can get to knowdenominations by reading their mission statements, etc. Now I am not saying other denominations aren't but that I know for a fact mine is. That is a shameless plug, again but really. If you have questions and want answers go find them and meet others who have those questions too and struggle for answers that are not so clearly defined. God bless you on your journey !!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 4:50:50 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 646
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
Conception is a process that takes a while, 12 to 24 hours I believe-- it might be days; I can't remember. What people get in biology 101 is usually something like sperm finds an egg, they fuse and there's the embryo... which seems like it happens in a second or two. I think he was asking at what point durng the entire process would a "conceptionist" (made-up word) call what's there "life." I do hear things like "from the moment of conception," but, it's not instantaneous.
From what I recall (and it's been awhile) is that sperm can survive for up to 72 hours in the woman's body. It can take up to that long to find the egg. Then it takes several sperm to bang their heads against the egg and release some kinda enzyme that breaks down a barrier around the egg thereby allowing one sperm to stick its head in the egg and inject its DNA. Then after the DNA of the sperm joins the DNA of the egg dividing and moving starts. I think it's around a week to 16 days before it implants in the womb after moving from the tube.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 4:54:11 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 646
Joined: 5/3/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
I knew I shouldn't even have started in this thread. Now I will go back on my word.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
A potential human child; there is a difference.
The DNA is human. The newly created life is not of mature age and, thus, a child. Where this child resides does not change the nature of what it is.
Ya know I can understand (disagree with but understand) the PERSONHOOD argument but how can someone be so stupid (mods I apologize if that's against TOS I'm not attacking any particular poster, just people in general) as to say it's not HUMAN? It has HUMAN DNA, I guess that somehow makes it a dog or a tree?  I mean really!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 5:00:36 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 646
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Living tissue + human DNA = human being. Well, it's not quite that simple, Bro_Shane, but I do appreciate your vote of confidence. Many cells and tissues containing human DNA can be maintained artificially in a living state and no one would consider them an ensouled human being. I personally believe physicians and scientists will never precisely identify the when and how of "personhood", but that is exactly why we should all err on the side of very early in conception in order to maintain the tenets of sanctity of life and human dignity.
That actually reminds me of an argument I recently had about IVF. A person said it's just an embryo not a baby, no one whose had an embryo transfer fail grieve like they'd lost a child. I told the person that that is not true, I have seen people grieve the loss of a CHILD when IVF transfers failed to implant and I know if I ever did IVF (odds are slim that I would due to health issues) I'd feel I lost a CHILD if the embryo didn't implant.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 6:49:28 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
It has HUMAN DNA, I guess that somehow makes it a dog or a tree? I mean really!
Actually, they tend to use terms like "parasite" and "tumor". 
Yes, they have to use words like that to both kill feeling and distract from the point. If they told the truth, if they called it what it was, then things may be different.
Imagine the phone rings and a lady picks it up: "Hello, Pam? Hi, this is Angela from your doctor's office. I just need to make sure that you are going to make your 3:00 appointment to murder your child tomorrow."
Doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?
Notice how they had to change "unwanted" pregnancy to "unplanned" pregnancy. We think we have won a victory there, but the term is now less offensive and more inclusive. Why should anyone believe people who have to lie to make their position more palatable?
Take "pro-choice" for example. That means you are for people making a choice. So, if the choice is not to murder children you are called closed minded. What they really are is pro abortion - but they'll never admit it. And, here's where people usually get upset, if you aren't pro life, even if by default, you are pro abortion.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 7:11:21 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 646
Joined: 5/3/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
It has HUMAN DNA, I guess that somehow makes it a dog or a tree? I mean really!
Actually, they tend to use terms like "parasite" and "tumor".
In a wrapped way "parasite" makes sense with the baby taking from the mom. But I can't figure out "tumor."
I don't think "unplanned" means anything. I know folks that are against abortion but have had unplanned pregnancies.
< Message edited by MissInnocent -- 4/7/2009 7:19:50 PM >
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 8:09:39 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
You are taking this out of context. First of all, the first verse says that this is addressing making "difficult vows".
So what? Why aren't babies under 30 days old worth anything in context?
quote:
The word abortion does not have to be in the Bible for the Bible to say it is wrong.
What I am saying is that abortions weren't addressed because they probably weren't even practiced- not because of moral prohibitions or because God forbade it. It was simply too dangerous to the life of the mother. Childbirth was dangerous, too, but not as dangerous.
quote:
Well, since you have already said that your mind is made up and unchangeable on the subject, then why discuss it?
Your mind is made up: why are you discussing it?
_____________________________
Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 8:15:33 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
The value being derived here is the value of individuals dedicated to service in the sanctuary or to the preisthood (as Samuel was as a child); it had nothing to do with whtehr the child was living, and they waited thirty days to present a child for service in that respect. Why someone would use this in a discussion about abortion is beyond me.
. . . I am quite sure that it is beyond you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: raivyne
so where's the bible passage saying that we are formed outside the womb so that "life" can be breathed into us? Or do you suggest God goes around forming "hulls" and waiting to see the completion of our whims and fancies to instill life?
I am saying that the bible seems to suggest ( and it is the traditional belief of many other cultures) that a human is embued with a spirit when they draw breath.
The unborn don't draw breath.
_____________________________
Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 8:18:15 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
I believe this is why scripture teaches life is sacred.
. . . Verses, Bro. What verses are you refering to?
_____________________________
Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 8:23:54 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 646
Joined: 5/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
"Unplanned" now covers everything from pregnancies that occur between married couples to those that are merely inconvenient because the interfere with the woman's current life or plans.
I was only trying to point out that just because someone says the pregnancy is "unplanned" does not mean they would remotely consider having an abortion.
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