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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 8:24:11 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I am saying that the bible seems to suggest ( and it is the traditional belief of many other cultures) that a human is embued with a spirit when they draw breath.
The unborn don't draw breath.
So if a doctor killed a baby while his/her mother was in labor, before it came out and took its first breath, there would be no sin committed?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 10:07:32 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MissInnocent
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
"Unplanned" now covers everything from pregnancies that occur between married couples to those that are merely inconvenient because the interfere with the woman's current life or plans.
I was only trying to point out that just because someone says the pregnancy is "unplanned" does not mean they would remotely consider having an abortion.
I know, I was just clarifying what I meant.
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ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
I believe this is why scripture teaches life is sacred.
. . . Verses, Bro. What verses are you refering to?
Are you being difficult for the fun of it, or are you truly as ignorant of scripture as you are making yourself out to be? Either way, here you go:
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Here we see God created us in His image.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Here we see that Christ has come to give abundant life in direct contrast to our enemy that comes (among other things) to both kill and destroy. Now, if life were not sacred, neither would God have given it to us nor would Satan try to take it and destroy it. I also refer you to God's wrath against those nations that sacrificed their children to Baal and Marduk.
The teaching that human life is sacred, and differs from animal life, is so clear and uncontradicted in both Testaments that to assert it is not there, or that it leaves out any stage of human development, is patently absurd.
Are we different than the animals? It has been put forth that if human life is sacred then all life must be.
Psalm 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
We know we are the highlight of His creation and that, unlike animals, we have understanding.
In Jeremiah 1:5 God states, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee." Psalm 139 states, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;" Let us also not forget one of the commandments states "Thou shall not murder."
So, just from these few verses we see that humanity is a special creation of God, made in His image, given life by Him. We also see that Satan hates our life and will take it if he can (refer to the beginning of the book of Job). We are told not to murder. What else could you say? I again refer y
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<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 10:28:07 PM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
You are taking this out of context. First of all, the first verse says that this is addressing making "difficult vows".
So what? Why aren't babies under 30 days old worth anything in context?
Context is everything. Jhud explained this better than I in his post.
quote:
quote:
The word abortion does not have to be in the Bible for the Bible to say it is wrong.
What I am saying is that abortions weren't addressed because they probably weren't even practiced
Irrelevant. All that matters is that the Bible speaks against wrongful killings...and the killing of an unborn baby, since the baby is alive, is wrong.
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quote:
Well, since you have already said that your mind is made up and unchangeable on the subject, then why discuss it?
Your mind is made up: why are you discussing it?
The difference is that you started the post. I never said that someone with his mind made up should not respond to a post. I do that often. If a post asks a question, it does not matter if the person that answers has his mind made up.
Also, having one's mind made up does not automatically mean one should not start a thread about the topic to discuss. However, I do not think the purpose should be just to debate/fight. From your comments and attitude, that is how your post came across.
< Message edited by CCCdnt -- 4/7/2009 10:49:03 PM >
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 11:21:18 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
So if a doctor killed a baby while his/her mother was in labor, before it came out and took its first breath, there would be no sin committed?
That depends on whether the doctor was murdering it with malicious intent, or whether he was trying to save the life of the mother.
In case one, it is murder which is a sin and a crime; in case two, the doctor is simply doing what he/she must which is neither a sin nor a crime.
quote:
Bro_Shane
Are you being difficult for the fun of it, or are you truly as ignorant of scripture as you are making yourself out to be?
Perhaps we'll soon see who is ignorant of scripture . . .
quote:
Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Here we see God created us in His image.
Yes we do see this, but it does not say that life is therefore sacred just because God created it.
Is animal, plant, or bacterial life sacred as well? God created those, too, did he not?
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John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Here we see that Christ has come to give abundant life in direct contrast to our enemy that comes (among other things) to both kill and destroy. Now, if life were not sacred, neither would God have given it to us nor would Satan try to take it and destroy it.
Again, if something is sacred simply by virtue of the fact that God created it, then absolutely everything is sacred.
Is this what you think?
quote:
I also refer you to God's wrath against those nations that sacrificed their children to Baal and Marduk.
Sacrificing a child drawing breath over the age of 30 days to a pagan god is not the same as aborting the unborn- not by a long shot.
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The teaching that human life is sacred, and differs from animal life, is so clear and uncontradicted in both Testaments that to assert it is not there, or that it leaves out any stage of human development, is patently absurd.
Is the book of Ecclesiastes "patently absurd?":
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity."
Ecclesiastes 3:18-19
quote:
Are we different than the animals? It has been put forth that if human life is sacred then all life must be.
Psalm 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
We know we are the highlight of His creation and that, unlike animals, we have understanding.
But that is not the point of Psalms 32:9. The point is that horses and mules do not follow instruction, but rather must be steered with bit and bridle. It contrasts the preceding verse:
"I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye."
Psalms 32:8
quote:
In Jeremiah 1:5 God states, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee."
This is not saying that all human life is sacred, but simply that God had a predetermined purpose for Jeremiah's life: two very different ideas.
quote:
Psalm 139 states, "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;"
Again, this only acknowledges that God is the psalmist's creator; it does not declare all human life sacred.
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Let us also not forget one of the commandments states "Thou shall not murder."
It is, "Thou shalt not kill." And as I stated already, this is not a absolute commandment, otherwise there could be no death penalty nor war.
< Message edited by 318 -- 4/7/2009 11:29:46 PM >
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 11:24:41 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Context is everything. Jhud explained this better than I in his post.
Is Jhud your nuncio?
quote:
Irrelevant. All that matters is that the Bible speaks against wrongful killings...and the killing of an unborn baby, since the baby is alive, is wrong.
The bible doesn't say that killing an unborn baby is wrong.
quote:
The difference is that you started the post.
. . . And you are willingly participating in it. If it bothers you so much that I don't agree with you, then why participate?
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 11:29:46 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10816
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
So if a doctor killed a baby while his/her mother was in labor, before it came out and took its first breath, there would be no sin committed?
That depends on whether the doctor was murdering it with malicious intent, or whether he was trying to save the life of the mother.
In case one, it is murder which is a sin and a crime; in case two, the doctor is simply doing what he/she must which is neither a sin nor a crime.
I have never heard of a case where it would save the mother's life to kill the baby she is in labor with.
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Thank you Veterans.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 11:35:27 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
That depends on whether the doctor was murdering it with malicious intent, or whether he was trying to save the life of the mother.
In case one, it is murder which is a sin and a crime; in case two, the doctor is simply doing what he/she must which is neither a sin nor a crime.
Why would it count as murder if the child hadn't taken a breath - and thus, in your view, had no spirit?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/7/2009 11:50:15 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6371
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
Yes we do see this, but it does not say that life is therefore sacred just because God created it.
Is animal, plant, or bacterial life sacred as well? God created those, too, did he not?
In His image?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 12:08:21 AM
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Reba
Posts: 665
Joined: 8/18/2008
Status: online
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quote:
Sacrificing a child drawing breath over the age of 30 days to a pagan god is not the same as aborting the unborn- not by a long shot.
Sure it is, the pagan god has a name Selfishness
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 2:34:39 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
Perhaps we'll soon see who is ignorant of scripture . . .
No, we have already seen it by your claiming to be a child of God yet consenting to the slaughter of unborn children. Now, let's look at your answers.
quote:
Yes we do see this, but it does not say that life is therefore sacred just because God created it.
Is animal, plant, or bacterial life sacred as well? God created those, too, did he not?
Excellent attempt at obfuscation. Are animals, plants, or bacteria treated the same in scripture? For whom did Christ die? Not animals, plants, and bacteria. Were they the pinnacle of His creation?
quote:
Again, if something is sacred simply by virtue of the fact that God created it, then absolutely everything is sacred.
Is this what you think?
You know good and well it is not what I think, and it is intellectually dishonest for you to try and make it seem so. Look at the circumstances of the creation of man. See through scripture the special place man holds in the heart of God. God has a plan to redeem man. Humans were not to be part of any sacrifice yet God sacrificed and shed blood first to cover Adam and Eve.
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Sacrificing a child drawing breath over the age of 30 days to a pagan god is not the same as aborting the unborn- not by a long shot.
Sure it is. You just wish it weren't so. You have to reverse engineer a definition for "human" and "child" to make your argument work. Regardless of the motivation or method the result is the same. God already had made it plain that the worship of other gods was forbidden, yet He made sure to note the killing of children specifically:
Leviticus 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
II Kings 16:3 But he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, yea, and made his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.
In these few verses we see God not pleased about two things: the worship of other gods and the murder of the children.
quote:
Is the book of Ecclesiastes "patently absurd?":
"I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity."
Ecclesiastes 3:18-19
No, but the way you try to use it is. Yet again, context is not kind to your argument. What is being said here is that the same things happen to both man and beast, not that one is not over the other. Again, look at the pinnacle of God's creation - it was man. It was man created in His image, not animals.
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But that is not the point of Psalms 32:9. The point is that horses and mules do not follow instruction, but rather must be steered with bit and bridle. It contrasts the preceding verse:
"I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye."
Psalms 32:8
And they have to be controlled because they have no understanding. They can not reason. Something that separates man from animal and the exact point I made. Well, at least you are trying to find context.
quote:
This is not saying that all human life is sacred, but simply that God had a predetermined purpose for Jeremiah's life: two very different ideas.
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
Psalm 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
Psalm 71:6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.
Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
So, I imagine you will now say these verses were speaking of one particular person? That they do not apply to all people? You can not take God out of the womb, which is what you are attempting to do. A child in the womb is just as important to God when outside. Which only shows the reason for God's anger at those who sacrificed their children that were clearly outside the womb.
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Again, this only acknowledges that God is the psalmist's creator; it does not declare all human life sacred.
OK, so God created man in His image; gave us will and understanding; we were the pinnacle of creation; we are higher than animals; Christ died for our redemption and rose for our justification; and God is concerned for children at all stages of development, from womb to childhood, and beyond - yet it is foolish to say life is sacred? The entire weight of scripture teaches this.
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It is, "Thou shalt not kill." And as I stated already, this is not a absolute commandment, otherwise there could be no death penalty nor war
Wrong. The word translated "kill" in the KJV is ratsach in the Hebrew. It means to murder. If it meant to kill under any circumstance the word would have been shachat, as used when Joseph's brothers killed a small goat to put the blood on his coat. Ratsach is used for intentional, malicious killing, hence murder.
This is also why there is no contradiction to killing as a means of executing justice or war. God understood the difference, and biblical Hebrew was developed enough to make the distinction clear.
So, the commandment was absolute.
Now you have a good bit of scripture from me. You have tried to twist it, undercut it, and dismiss it. You have been shown to be in error by me and others. How about your scriptural stance? Show me your scripture that justifies your position and let's take a look at it.
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<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 3:03:14 AM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2085
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MissInnocent
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
Conception is a process that takes a while, 12 to 24 hours I believe-- it might be days; I can't remember. What people get in biology 101 is usually something like sperm finds an egg, they fuse and there's the embryo... which seems like it happens in a second or two. I think he was asking at what point durng the entire process would a "conceptionist" (made-up word) call what's there "life." I do hear things like "from the moment of conception," but, it's not instantaneous.
From what I recall (and it's been awhile) is that sperm can survive for up to 72 hours in the woman's body. It can take up to that long to find the egg. Then it takes several sperm to bang their heads against the egg and release some kinda enzyme that breaks down a barrier around the egg thereby allowing one sperm to stick its head in the egg and inject its DNA. Then after the DNA of the sperm joins the DNA of the egg dividing and moving starts. I think it's around a week to 16 days before it implants in the womb after moving from the tube.
Yeah, I knew those parts. What I was getting at is that even after the sperm and egg begin their tango of fertilization, they do not immediately become a new human. :)
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 8:25:22 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4637
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
That depends on whether the doctor was murdering it with malicious intent, or whether he was trying to save the life of the mother. Oh come on, 318, one does not need to go to medical school to figure out that there is absolutely NO medical reason to kill an almost delivered baby in order to save the mother's life! In fact, a physician who wasted precious time killing the newborn infant instead of aggressively completing the delivery and immediately attending to the mother's health would be committing malpractice, in my professional judgement.
quote:
The bible doesn't say that killing an unborn baby is wrong. I find Exodus 20:13 compelling - is that page missing from your Bible?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 9:18:00 AM
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raivyne
Posts: 880
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MissInnocent
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
It has HUMAN DNA, I guess that somehow makes it a dog or a tree? I mean really!
Actually, they tend to use terms like "parasite" and "tumor". 
In a wrapped way "parasite" makes sense with the baby taking from the mom. But I can't figure out "tumor."
Every living thing on this planet lives off of something. So i've never understood their reasoning for using that word to justify killing a person.
quote:
I am saying that the bible seems to suggest ( and it is the traditional belief of many other cultures) that a human is embued with a spirit when they draw breath.
The unborn don't draw breath.
Now you're changing your argument from when life starts to when we get a spirit, so I believe I have made my point well enough.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
So if a doctor killed a baby while his/her mother was in labor, before it came out and took its first breath, there would be no sin committed?
quote:
That depends on whether the doctor was murdering it with malicious intent, or whether he was trying to save the life of the mother.
In case one, it is murder which is a sin and a crime; in case two, the doctor is simply doing what he/she must which is neither a sin nor a crime.
So the baby hasn't been born and hasn't taken a breath and whether or not it's murder depends on the intent of the doctor?
That doesn't line up very good with your earlier assertion, unless you're now saying that it is murder to take a life before the spirit has inhabited the body (your assertion - not mine).
Also, I will make it very clear to my doctor that he is to save my baby no matter what. That is the love of a mother.
Also, what drmark said is a very good point. There's no reason to kill a baby for the sake of a the mother. That's a red herring.
quote:
Sacrificing a child drawing breath over the age of 30 days to a pagan god is not the same as aborting the unborn- not by a long shot.
So sacrificing a breathing baby under the age of 30 days is OK? That's rather absurd.
< Message edited by raivyne -- 4/8/2009 9:50:07 AM >
_____________________________
Choice happens before the bedroom.
I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody if asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly, I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. Original Hippocratic Oath, circa 400 B.C.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 9:30:18 AM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Context is everything. Jhud explained this better than I in his post.
Is Jhud your nuncio?
So instead of addressing the issue you are resorting to responses such as this?
quote:
quote:
Irrelevant. All that matters is that the Bible speaks against wrongful killings...and the killing of an unborn baby, since the baby is alive, is wrong.
The bible doesn't say that killing an unborn baby is wrong.
The Bible does not have the exact words of - "You shall not bash a baby's head in with a baseball bat" either, but hopefully you would agree that the Bible teaches that this is wrong.
quote:
quote:
The difference is that you started the post.
. . . And you are willingly participating in it. If it bothers you so much that I don't agree with you, then why participate?
If people did not participate in posts where the subject matter or some of the subject matter bothered them, then the only participants in posts would be those that agree with the posts, which obviously is not the case.
I can see from your responses to me and others that you are determined to only see your point of view regardless of how clearly it is presented to you that the Bible does consider life sacred including that of a baby's.
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See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 9:33:11 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
Posts: 3595
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
I am saying that the bible seems to suggest ( and it is the traditional belief of many other cultures) that a human is embued with a spirit when they draw breath.
The unborn don't draw breath.
1. They do draw breath in later stages of pregnancy--they use their lungs, but what is going in and out is not air but amniotic fluid. Mechanically, though, they do it.
2. In terms of using oxygen like the rest of us, they also do that.
"Drawing breath" is a weird basis for life, since it can be medically manipulated. A premie baby born without the ability to draw breath would not be a valuable human being to you, apparently. But that same baby, with the help of steroid shots to develop the lungs, could actually draw breath at birth. Same point in gestation, one is not a human life because it was not able to draw breath, but the other is because a doctor gave it a shot to enable it to draw breath.  But if the baby cannot draw breath on it's own, and is thus "not a person", why should anyone attempt to help it breathe? It's just a shell, after all. A thing. It's parents can try again for a *real* baby next time. 
And people in all stages of development may loose their personhood according to that standard, if through some accident or illness they are unable to draw a breath for themselves. IF they are medically assisted in drawing breath until they recover, are they humans during that time? Would it be ok to take a sharp instrument to them and take them apart piece by piece, since they are not capable of surviving on their own? Or burning them to death with chemicals?
_____________________________
 Moo
The Ballad of Bad Biruk
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 1:21:01 PM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2085
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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Re: Plan B and how long conception takes
I was correcting what was said earlier by others; I wasn't the one who brought it up. Fertilization doesn't happen instantaneously.
And if someone wants to believe Plan B and an abortion are the same, that's okay for them. Please know that it is not factual and is not agreed upon even by those who research this (Plan B and implantation); at least tell people as such if you must share your opinion.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 1:25:09 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
I have never heard of a case where it would save the mother's life to kill the baby she is in labor with.
. . . You've never heard of it; therefore, it can't happen? Are you a physician?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Why would it count as murder if the child hadn't taken a breath - and thus, in your view, had no spirit?
Because murder is defined by the malicious intention of the act of extinguishing a life more than the act itself.
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ORIGINAL: Reba
Sure it is, the pagan god has a name Selfishness
No, you are just making this up.
A medical procedure and a sacrifical act to a pagan god/goddess are two distantly distinct things.
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ORIGINAL: drmark
Oh come on, 318, one does not need to go to medical school to figure out that there is absolutely NO medical reason to kill an almost delivered baby in order to save the mother's life!
Even if this were true, then the only reason left would be malice: that would be murder.
Isn't that what I said in the first place?
quote:
I find Exodus 20:13 compelling - is that page missing from your Bible?
I addressed this already. The sixth commandment is not absolute, otherwise it would prohibit capital punishment and war as well as murder.
Besides, do you not find Ecclesiastes 3:3 equally compelling when it unconditionally declares that for everything there is a season and a time to every purpose uner the heaven including "a time to kill?"
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 1:37:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6371
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
No, you are just making this up. A medical procedure and a sacrifical act to a pagan god/goddess are two distantly distinct things.
The simple declaration of it being a medical procedure doesn't grant relief...
quote:
Besides, do you not find Ecclesiastes 3:3 equally compelling when it unconditionally declares that for everything there is a season and a time to every purpose uner the heaven including "a time to kill?"
Yes, but that would be justly, not indiscriminately......
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John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 1:38:23 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
This is not true. Abortion and contraception were well known and widely practiced in the ancient world, though not by the Jews
. . . Well, there you go then.
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Mind-altering drug use wasn't unknown either, but God doesn't specifically address it in the Bible--does that make it OK too?
We are not talking about what is "OK;" we are talking about what God expressly prohibits.
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"Drawing breath" is a weird basis for life, since it can be medically manipulated.
It may seem "weird" to you and me in this day and age, but throughout most of recorded history, this is traditionally how life was determined.
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ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
So instead of addressing the issue you are resorting to responses such as this?
My point was that Jhud admitted that it was beyond him.
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The Bible does not have the exact words of - "You shall not bash a baby's head in with a baseball bat" either, but hopefully you would agree that the Bible teaches that this is wrong.
Actually, there is a similar verse:
"O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones."
Psalm 137:8-9
David does seem to be advocating infanticide of the "little ones" of one's enemies, does he not?
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I can see from your responses to me and others that you are determined to only see your point of view regardless of how clearly it is presented to you that the Bible does consider life sacred including that of a baby's.
I am making it clear that your contentions do not hold up under scrutiny, and this obviously upsets you. It's not my fault if the truth hurts.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 1:39:50 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
Status: offline
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Bro_Shane,
I eagerly anticpate my answer to you, but right now I am out of time.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 1:42:29 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 2333
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
Because murder is defined by the malicious intention of the act of extinguishing a life more than the act itself.
So if I maliciously destroy a flea, I am guilty of murder?
_____________________________
"To the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sun is really a sun; to the humble man, and to the humble man alone, the sea is really a sea."
-G. K. Chesterton
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/8/2009 1:44:50 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10816
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
I have never heard of a case where it would save the mother's life to kill the baby she is in labor with.
. . . You've never heard of it; therefore, it can't happen? Are you a physician?
Please show me proof that it has happened.
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Thank you Veterans.
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