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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/12/2009 9:36:19 PM
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PinkCarnations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Is a severely retarded child less deserving of life, regardless of how short it is? How about deformed children or those born with congenital birth defects? Are they less deserving of life? Is a short life worth less?
That is very different from anencephaly.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/12/2009 9:51:40 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Is a severely retarded child less deserving of life, regardless of how short it is? How about deformed children or those born with congenital birth defects? Are they less deserving of life? Is a short life worth less?
That is very different from anencephaly.
But why does it matter?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/12/2009 9:56:38 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4636
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quote:
That is very different from anencephaly. Excuse me, but what is "very different"? Anencephalics are deformed children. They are born with a congenital birth defect (if not murdered in the womb). Is there life worth less, short or long as it may be?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/12/2009 10:04:03 PM
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PinkCarnations
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
That is very different from anencephaly. Excuse me, but what is "very different"? Anencephalics are deformed children. They are born with a congenital birth defect (if not murdered in the womb). Is there life worth less, short or long as it may be?
There are times that they are born dead. I'm not saying that abortion is right or wrong with anencephalic babies. I'm just saying that we need to be a little more sympathic to the mother in those situations.
I'm actually prolife. When anencephaly or life of the mother comes into play though, I don't think it's any of our business except to be a friend to the mother and not try to talk her into believing our views.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/12/2009 10:39:39 PM
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solo_soprano23
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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A majority of the ones who aren't terminated are don't survive birth. In most situations, I don't believe in abortion. I think when dealing with something like this, it's good to understand how a woman can feel like she's between a rock and a hard place.
(Edited for spelling.)
< Message edited by solo_soprano23 -- 4/12/2009 10:51:26 PM >
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/12/2009 10:49:54 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 646
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Anencephaly is different than Down Syndrome and other disorders. Most moms will get a second opinion before aborting a baby with anencephaly.
I know they are different.
But the fact is, anencephaly *is* misdiagnosed at times.
And I still don't see how it is moral, even with a firm diagnoses, to murder such a baby, nor how it could *possibly* be more physically and emotionally healthy for the mother. 
I can't help but think of the first ever NEWBORN heart transplant. The donor was an anencephalic baby. Why butcher the child when you can allow it to die it's NATURAL death and donate it's viable organs to help another innocent child?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 12:22:18 AM
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prayforwisedom
Posts: 22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Anencephaly is different than Down Syndrome and other disorders. Most moms will get a second opinion before aborting a baby with anencephaly.
I know they are different.
But the fact is, anencephaly *is* misdiagnosed at times.
And I still don't see how it is moral, even with a firm diagnoses, to murder such a baby, nor how it could *possibly* be more physically and emotionally healthy for the mother.
Totally agree with 3cappuccinosmom and consider that in some cases even when the diagnoses is correct the baby will still be born alive and live.......
A quote from the blog link I posted earlier Baby Faith Hope at 39 days had a CAT scan and....
"A neurosurgeon, neuro-radio-interventionologist (big word), and a radiologist looked at the photos and they all agreed that the diagnosis of anencephaly was correct. They have no explanation as to how she is functioning on a conscious level without a cerebrum, or how she is even alive. It's the kind of miracle that makes atheists scratch their heads..."
And quite frankly I am curious if there are any mothers who brought anencephalic babies to term who were stillborn or died shortly after birth, who regret making that decision. As a mother and woman I cannot see how the trauma of an abortion could possibly help the emotional and mental health of woman whose baby has been diagnosed with anencephaly.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 12:30:55 AM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prayforwisedom
And quite frankly I am curious if there are any mothers who brought anencephalic babies to term who were stillborn or died shortly after birth, who regret making that decision. As a mother and woman I cannot see how the trauma of an abortion could possibly help the emotional and mental health of woman whose baby has been diagnosed with anencephaly.
I don't know of any mothers who carried out the pregnancies of anencephalic babies. However, I do know some who've aborted those babies. I hold no judgement against those women. It took a lot for them to go against their beliefs - and worse yet have to face prolifers who consider them murderers. What they did had to be hard. However, the ones I know, said that they were in no way able to deliever a dead child or to watch their child die shortly after birth.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 1:06:19 AM
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prayforwisedom
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ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
quote:
I fail to see how it would help a woman to give birth do a dead baby or one that will die very soon. I don't think that it is wrong for a woman to choose abortion in that case. I also don't think it's heroic for her to choose to give birth in that case either.
No I don't think it is heroic to continue an anencephalic pregnancy either anymore than it is to continue with a regular pregnancy. Both are children who the Lord knows in the womb.....
I do think it is interesting that many mothers who bring anencephalic pregnancies to term often do not have support for their decision from the medical community.
quote:
It took a lot for them to go against their beliefs - and worse yet have to face prolifers who consider them murderers.
But why would they go against their beliefs?? And I am only addressing Christian mothers here......do they not need to put their trust in the Lord and His plan? If their beliefs do not convict them of God being able to sustain them through any circumstance, including delivering a stillborn child, then are they not missing a critical part of faith? And should that not be addressed? We do not know the trials God will use to refine and grow our faith and for His glory!
Where in the abortion of any pregnancy that is diagnosed with a deformation or imperfection by a Christian are you allowing God to show His power of healing? Are you not killing the opportunity for a miracle?
And how can delivering a stillborn child be worse than feeling the movement of a child inside you one day and not the next, knowing you decided when the end of that life would be....
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Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 2:03:41 AM
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PinkCarnations
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I'm not saying that it's right or wrong for a woman to abort an anencephalic baby. I'm just saying that maybe the prolife community (and I do consider myself prolife) who has so much compassion should get down off of their high horses and show some compassion to the women who have to make that decision. Instead they want to lump her in with all the other abortion cases and have her so shamed that she feels she has no one to talk to.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 10:27:50 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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I know two women who carried anencephalic babies to term. My parents being pro-life doctors know a few more.
Yes, it hurt like heck to watch their children die after living such short lives, but none of them said "Gee, yeah, I really should have killed it before it was born". One of them was the youngest child in a family of 8 or 9 and two of his siblings were close to my age, so it was something that the whole community, including the school children knew about, talked about, and helped comfort the family.
Killing a baby, no matter how imperfect or how likely to die after birth, is wrong. A woman may be highly pressured, and she may cave to the pressure to do it, but that does not make it any less wrong.
Abortion still results in a dead baby, and it is an intentional killing rather than a natural death which adds a whole new facet to the parents emotional pain. *And* these are generally late term abortions to they introduce unnecessary physical risk to the mother. IOW, bad idea all around.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 10:42:17 AM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
I fail to see how it would help a woman to give birth [to]...one that will die very soon. I don't think that it is wrong for a woman to choose abortion in that case.
Why stop there? What about the mother that finds out that her (insert whatever age you want) child is going to die a painful death due to some terminal condition (cancer, brain tumor, etc.)? If it were legal for the mother to "terminate" her child in this case and she did want to have to experience seeing her child suffer and ultimately die, would you be against this?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 11:03:36 AM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
I fail to see how it would help a woman to give birth [to]...one that will die very soon. I don't think that it is wrong for a woman to choose abortion in that case.
Why stop there? What about the mother that finds out that her (insert whatever age you want) child is going to die a painful death due to some terminal condition (cancer, brain tumor, etc.)? If it were legal for the mother to "terminate" her child in this case and she did want to have to experience seeing her child suffer and ultimately die, would you be against this?
I've never heard of a case where the mother knew of something like that beforehand.
What would you say to a mother who had aborted an anencephalic baby? Would you try to comfort her for her loss? Turn your back on her? Other?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 11:18:39 AM
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drmark
Posts: 4636
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quote:
I've never heard of a case where the mother knew of something like that beforehand. Get use to it, folks. With all the new and sophisticated genetic testing that's coming out, we will soon be able to eliminate all kinds of babies with all kinds of genetic "defects" before they become a "burden to society". God help us as we rationalize more infanticide!
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 4:22:58 PM
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MissInnocent
Posts: 646
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prayforwisedom
Where in the abortion of any pregnancy that is diagnosed with a deformation or imperfection by a Christian are you allowing God to show His power of healing? Are you not killing the opportunity for a miracle?
Exactly! Also, what about my last post about the first newborn heart transplant. The donor was an anacephalic baby. Even if YOU don't get a miracle why not give a miracle to other parents by donating your child's viable organs to save other tiny lives?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 4:37:13 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MissInnocent
Exactly! Also, what about my last post about the first newborn heart transplant. The donor was an anacephalic baby. Even if YOU don't get a miracle why not give a miracle to other parents by donating your child's viable organs to save other tiny lives?
That is a wonderful idea. However, I'm not going to throw stones at a woman who is not strong enough emotionally to do that.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 5:58:42 PM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
I fail to see how it would help a woman to give birth [to]...one that will die very soon. I don't think that it is wrong for a woman to choose abortion in that case.
Why stop there? What about the mother that finds out that her (insert whatever age you want) child is going to die a painful death due to some terminal condition (cancer, brain tumor, etc.)? If it were legal for the mother to "terminate" her child in this case and she did want to have to experience seeing her child suffer and ultimately die, would you be against this?
I've never heard of a case where the mother knew of something like that beforehand.
So you have never heard of or read of situations where a child is diagnosed with terminal cancer of some kind or an inoperable brain tumor where nothing can be done and also where it will result in pain and suffering before death occurs?
quote:
What would you say to a mother who had aborted an anencephalic baby? Would you try to comfort her for her loss?
Define what you mean by "comfort".
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 6:10:28 PM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10801
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
What would you say to a mother who had aborted an anencephalic baby? Would you try to comfort her for her loss?
Define what you mean by "comfort".
Hold her hand, offer her a shoulder to cry on, direct her to a Christ-centered post abortion counseling place, etc.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 10:17:44 PM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
What would you say to a mother who had aborted an anencephalic baby? Would you try to comfort her for her loss?
Define what you mean by "comfort".
Hold her hand, offer her a shoulder to cry on, direct her to a Christ-centered post abortion counseling place, etc.
If you first answer the question I asked you, I will address yours.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 10:25:06 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1614
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I'm sorry, but this hypothetical woman did not suffer loss as we usually mean it. She would have willingly had her own child murdered.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 11:46:14 PM
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318
Posts: 346
Joined: 1/9/2009
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Wow-- here I went and got behind again.
I'll try to catch up:
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Since it can not proven beyond a doubt when ensoulment occurs, then why would a professing Christian not want to err on the side of caution?
Why would a professing Christian want to err at all?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
But if they have no spirit, then they're not alive - if I've understood you correctly.
. . . Well, that's a dicey question. Without breath there is no spirit (by biblical standards), but that does not mean that there are no signs of life at a perfunctory level. A fetus is considered alive if it has a heartbeat, but until it breaths, it has no personhood, i.e. no spirit.
quote:
So, malice or not, no life has been taken, if you stick by your spirit-at-first-breath view.
. . . No.
Life has been taken, but no murder has been committed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: JeCrois
318,
Do you have any children?
Yes. Interesting that you should bring that up:
My kid is not the fruit of my loins, but I am raising him as my own. At 3 years of age, he does not know the difference.
The interesting thing is that he was born with gross internal deformities that would have killed him had the doctors not played God and fixed what God did.
Remember?: according to your scripture quotes, you concluded that God hand-knits each and every individual together in each womb; therefore, God knit my kid together with non-functional, fatal flaws. We went against God's workmanship and had surgeons fix it so that he could live in spite of God's obvious desire to the contrary.
Ironic, isn't it.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/13/2009 11:58:17 PM
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Retro80s
Posts: 277
Joined: 3/10/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
I'll try to catch up:
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
Since it can not proven beyond a doubt when ensoulment occurs, then why would a professing Christian not want to err on the side of caution?
Why would a professing Christian want to err at all?
Your question here makes no sense in regards to the issue being discussed. Again, you are ignoring context.
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See for Yourself
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