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Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 4:53:16 PM
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318
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I hope that this is an okay topic; I didn't see anything in the TOS about it, nor did I find a dedicated "one stop thread" about it.
Is abortion against the bible? I say no.
Is abortion murder? I say no.
Care to chime in (e.g. SovereignIsHe, WesP, et al)?
_____________________________
Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 4:56:08 PM
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318
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Btw, I apologize ahead of time if it takes me awhile to get back to this thread sometimes. I have a hectic schedule at times.
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 4:58:54 PM
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Retro80s
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
I hope that this is an okay topic; I didn't see anything in the TOS about it, nor did I find a dedicated "one stop thread" about it.
Is abortion against the bible? I say no.
Is abortion murder? I say no.
Care to chime in (e.g. SovereignIsHe, WesP, et al)?
I am curious as to the reason for your post. I mainly ask because you specifically addressed some people from the forum.
Is abortion against the bible? Yes.
Is abortion murder? Yes.
_____________________________
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See for Yourself
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 5:08:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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Where is there just cause for taking life in the womb? Christian liberty?
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 5:35:02 PM
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DougHorton
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Is it possible to have an abortion without murdering an innocent life?
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You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 6:28:23 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
I hope that this is an okay topic; I didn't see anything in the TOS about it, nor did I find a dedicated "one stop thread" about it.
Is abortion against the bible? I say no.
Is abortion murder? I say no.
Care to chime in (e.g. SovereignIsHe, WesP, et al)?
Is abortion against the bible? As far as I know it is not specifically referenced in the bible, but it is, IMHO, clearly against what we are taught in the bible about love, selfishness, standing up for the helpless and innocent. Those who want to say that abortion is not a moral or ethical issue, but simply a personal choice are guilty of wishful thinking. It could only be an amoral (no morality one way or the other) choice if you delude yourself into believing that a baby is not a baby because it has not yet been born.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 6:38:37 PM
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dbark
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318 ...
I think that you will find near universal opposition to abortion on this forum ... that said, the conversation is welcome. Rather than having everyone on here tell you how they almost all believe abortion to be wrong, why don't you give us some of your rationale for what you believe so that we can respond directly to those ideas.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 6:51:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
318 ...
I think that you will find near universal opposition to abortion on this forum ... that said, the conversation is welcome. Rather than having everyone on here tell you how they almost all believe abortion to be wrong, why don't you give us some of your rationale for what you believe so that we can respond directly to those ideas.
There are plenty of people who support abortion on this forum... Everyone voted for the current President is for it regardless of their explanation...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 7:15:31 PM
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dbark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
318 ...
I think that you will find near universal opposition to abortion on this forum ... that said, the conversation is welcome. Rather than having everyone on here tell you how they almost all believe abortion to be wrong, why don't you give us some of your rationale for what you believe so that we can respond directly to those ideas.
There are plenty of people who support abortion on this forum... Everyone voted for the current President is for it regardless of their explanation...
I guess we'll find that out in this thread. I don't think it is your place to say what anyone else believes.
Besides - abortion laws and abortion are two separate issues. If you don't agree with that - ask yourself if you believe people should be charged with a crime for adultery.
_____________________________
"In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it, thou art a fool." ~ Rabbi Ben Azai
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 7:25:40 PM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2081
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
I hope that this is an okay topic; I didn't see anything in the TOS about it, nor did I find a dedicated "one stop thread" about it.
Is abortion against the bible? I say no.
Is abortion murder? I say no.
Care to chime in (e.g. SovereignIsHe, WesP, et al)?
Since the Bible doesn't address when personhood begins, you'll find different beliefs about this. Accordingly, you'll find different opinions on abortion. Methinks you know that. :)
I'm agaist abortion in most instances (although I do not believe that life begins at conception). If it comes down to the life of the mother vs. the life of the embryo, I do not believe it's wrong to abort. Same with ectopics, although a very few ectopics have lived (along with their mothers).
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 7:26:19 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
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From: S/W Nebraska
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
I hope that this is an okay topic; I didn't see anything in the TOS about it, nor did I find a dedicated "one stop thread" about it.
Is abortion against the bible? I say no.
Is abortion murder? I say no.
Care to chime in (e.g. SovereignIsHe, WesP, et al)?
318, Shalom.
The following is not an exact match, but does address the death of an unborn child through intent:
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
(KJV)
If it is unintentional, then there is a fine, as dictated by the husband, but if intentional, the culprit is to die. The match is no perfect, as I said, but abortion is the intentional killing of an unborn child.
I have to vote YES, and YES, also.
In Messiah, His Shalom, and reconsideration, please. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 8:27:21 PM
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318
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
I am curious as to the reason for your post. I mainly ask because you specifically addressed some people from the forum.
. . . It started in another thread with them.
quote:
Is abortion against the bible? Yes.
Proof, please. I know of no biblical verses addressing abortion.
quote:
Is abortion murder? Yes.
No. The legal definition of murder involves malicious intent. I can't imagine any woman getting an abortion out of malice for the fetus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Where is there just cause for taking life in the womb?
Because it is the woman's body; her interests supercede that of the parasite (again, medical definition).
Gotta run- I'll be back later . . .
_____________________________
Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 8:50:13 PM
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dboe
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I don't know if it is entirely unbiblical or not, it is not referenced of course. I like the stance of the Methodist church on it (of course that is the denomination I belong to) that sometimes there is a need, for example if the mother's life is in danger or sometimes in the case of very severe disabilities for the child (you can look it up I think from the United Methodist Church probably if you google it). Yes that was a shameless plug for my denomination I know and I am Christian first but, there is more to the issue than yay and nay. For example, some denominations really really stress out about the abortofacient possiblities of birth control. I think that goes a bit too far towards the legalistic extreme. So, author of the post, do you think birth control is abortion as some do? Or are you referring to a more traditional abortion. I believe I would be opposed to a traditional abortion with the exception of a mother being at risk during pregnancy, and also in the case of very very severe disabilities (I also work with kids with disabilities so am obviously not advocating this except in a very extreme situation like a child being born without a head, this is actually a situation my husband's friend is facing), I am not referring to autism, MI, etc. Also, in the case of birth control, I agree with its use and I don't think using it is causing an abortion as that is a highly controversial and scientifically shaky issue (even Dr Dobson will not go against it entirely if you read FOcus on the Family's stance on the pill). I think birth control use is wise and prudent and diminishes misery and extreme poverty, again working with kids it saddens me to see kids removed sometimes when parents cannot care for them. So, is that a good answer for you? By the way, thanks for posting on a controversial issue.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 8:59:57 PM
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solo_soprano23
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Ah, I forgot to add. In cases such as anencephaly, I can see abortion being okay as well. I do know Christian doctors who will recommend abortion for that, but the death rate is 100%, with most who survive being stillborn. The others are aborted or kept comfortable until they die naturally in a few hours or days.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 9:38:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
I guess we'll find that out in this thread.
I know most of them.... This isn't the first thread on the subject....
quote:
I don't think it is your place to say what anyone else believes.
They say what they believe by their words and actions...
quote:
Besides - abortion laws and abortion are two separate issues.
Only for those who wish to rationalize their support for those who support abortion...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 9:43:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
Because it is the woman's body; her interests supercede that of the parasite (again, medical definition).
What verse is that taken from? Book of Humanism Chapter 7 verse 5... And if you think anyone believes your using the term "parasite" is simply for medical reason you are only kidding yourself...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 10:10:35 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
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318, Shalom, again.
I just had a thought that might change your mind. Spend $19.00, on a DVD, at Zola Levitt Ministries, www.levitt.com to order 'A child is born,' under 'Jewish Feasts' section. I obtained it to show see a messianic viewpoint about Jesus (I thought), but found out that Zola was not teaching about Jesus, but about the gestation period from conception to birth, and how gestation fits the Bible, and the Feasts of God, to the day. Every person I have shown it to, in my Feasts ministry, has either ordered their own copy, or came back to have me reshow it to them. It will impact your faith, and attitude.
Of course, if you wish not to change your mind, please do not obtain, nor view that DVD. 'Viewing of that DVD can be hazardous to your abortion rights attitude.' (Required disclaimer so you won't think I tricked you)
In Messiah, His Shalom, and truth. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 11:08:42 PM
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318
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Is it possible to have an abortion without murdering an innocent life?
Yes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
Is abortion against the bible? As far as I know it is not specifically referenced in the bible
. . . Exactly.
quote:
but it is, IMHO, clearly against what we are taught in the bible about love, selfishness, standing up for the helpless and innocent
If I may, this is way too general. Can you narrow down what you mean by what the bible "taught" in these categories that relate to abortion?
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
Since the Bible doesn't address when personhood begins, you'll find different beliefs about this.
. . . I wouldn't say that the bible doesn't address it at all. The book of Genesis says that Adam "became a living soul" after he "breathed in his nostrils the breath of life."
The unborn don't breath air.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
The following is not an exact match, but does address the death of an unborn child through intent:
It does, but you and I interpret what it says differently.
The death of the premature baby in this instance and in that day would have been a given; yet, this verse classified it as "no mischief." The mischief is if the mother died as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dboe
So, author of the post, do you think birth control is abortion as some do?
Birth control that prevents pregnancy is not abortion in any way, shape, nor form.
< Message edited by 318 -- 4/2/2009 11:14:51 PM >
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Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 11:13:12 PM
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318
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
What verse is that taken from? Book of Humanism Chapter 7 verse 5...
I was not pleading from scripture in that statement.
quote:
And if you think anyone believes your using the term "parasite" is simply for medical reason you are only kidding yourself...
I am done with you, now . . . and I am not kidding.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
I just had a thought that might change your mind
Thank you, but I am not looking to change my mind. My mind's made up. I just want to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue.
_____________________________
Brian
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 11:28:28 PM
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SamsonUSA
Posts: 2067
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
318 ...
I think that you will find near universal opposition to abortion on this forum ... that said, the conversation is welcome. Rather than having everyone on here tell you how they almost all believe abortion to be wrong, why don't you give us some of your rationale for what you believe so that we can respond directly to those ideas.
There are plenty of people who support abortion on this forum... Everyone voted for the current President is for it regardless of their explanation...
Without question.
quote:
Thank you, but I am not looking to change my mind. My mind's made up. I just want to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue.
That is a question for abortion supporters to ask of God when they stand before Him.
_____________________________
If you can't be thankful for what you receive, be thankful for what you escape.
"You are never more free than when you fulfill the plan God has for your life." Warren Wiersbe
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/2/2009 11:36:15 PM
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pbo
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Isn't it rather hypocritical to favor abortion after you've already been born?
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 12:10:01 AM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2081
Joined: 4/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Is it possible to have an abortion without murdering an innocent life?
Yes.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
Is abortion against the bible? As far as I know it is not specifically referenced in the bible
. . . Exactly.
quote:
but it is, IMHO, clearly against what we are taught in the bible about love, selfishness, standing up for the helpless and innocent
If I may, this is way too general. Can you narrow down what you mean by what the bible "taught" in these categories that relate to abortion?
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
Since the Bible doesn't address when personhood begins, you'll find different beliefs about this.
. . . I wouldn't say that the bible doesn't address it at all. The book of Genesis says that Adam "became a living soul" after he "breathed in his nostrils the breath of life."
The unborn don't breath air.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
The following is not an exact match, but does address the death of an unborn child through intent:
It does, but you and I interpret what it says differently.
The death of the premature baby in this instance and in that day would have been a given; yet, this verse classified it as "no mischief." The mischief is if the mother died as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dboe
So, author of the post, do you think birth control is abortion as some do?
Birth control that prevents pregnancy is not abortion in any way, shape, nor form.
Yes, it does; I meant it doesn't address the conception=person view that permeates. I'm not sure where it came from anyway. Do you know? The Church holds this view (as a whole), but that hasn't always been the case (because they thought no soul was destroyed and apparently have flip-flopped several times), and I feel as if many think it's Biblical (conception=life) because they were told the Bible says that and have always believed that. I know Christians believe that breathe=life, blood=life, (of course) conception=life, brain development or function=life, etc.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 12:55:27 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 318
I was not pleading from scripture in that statement.
That's for sure...
quote:
I am done with you, now . . . and I am not kidding.
Nice to know I made my point...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Pro-life/Pro-choice: let's talk - 4/3/2009 1:09:17 AM
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texastweet
Posts: 399
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quote:
Thank you, but I am not looking to change my mind. My mind's made up. I just want to know why so many Christians think that abortion is a biblical issue.
So 318, the first thing I would ask is why is your mind already closed? When do you think life begins? Is it ok to destroy them up until they are out of the womb? If I gave you a gun and said it might be loaded would you still hold it to your head and pull the trigger? The analogy shows that if you are not sure when life begins then you should choose not to pull the trigger or not let them kill what is a human being. Use your mind don't close it.
The bible talks about being in the womb many times.
Jeremiah:
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)
John the Baptist:"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)
Paul:
But when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased (Galatians 1:15)
So at the very least you have to agree that the bible demonstrates that things in the womb are considered people. To think one can support abortion and at the same time say they are Christian are simply deceiving themselves. Maybe you agree with that episcopalian lesbian bishop who says abortion is a blessing...
What a strange world...
Otis
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