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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/20/2009 2:05:00 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
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ORIGINAL: kelman
If you want to know about real biblical tongues, you can read the following: "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language....And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (Acts 2:6,8).
And onece again you display your mioptic view of Scripture concerning tongues.Hmm, let's see did you mean "myopic" by some chance? I post a Bilbe verse and you call me "mioptic" for doing so.
Regardless of your spelling, your personal opinions hold little weight with me especially since you've given no support for your position - just snide remarks.
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(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
Paul says here that man is speaking to God (prayer) and that no man understands the tongues.There is nothing in this verse that can lead to the conclusion that "tongues" is not an actual language in Scripture..
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(1Co 14:14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
(1Co 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Paul speaks here of praying in tongues, and singing in tongues, but also that he will also pray and sing in a known language.As usual, this does nothing to help your position.
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And then of course there is the Acts 2 tongues where they evidently speak in other known languages and someone does understand (though that could be the miracle of hearing by those of different languages)Also apparent is that you don't read the posts very closely. I am maintaining that the tongues in Scripture IS a KNOWN language not the nonsense we see today.
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Now since you dismiss praying, profecying, and singing in tongue as for this day and time; do you think that the example of Acts 2 is still for today?Of course it isn't for today. God does not add to His Word, He is giving no further revelation and He will not accommodate those who seek such things.
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That particular manisfitation has happened to me one in the Yucatan Jungle of Mexico, when I prayed in a tongue and all those in attendace heard it in thier own Mayan dialect, and so did the Mexican Evangelist that was in attendance heard it in the Mayan dialect. The locals there only spoke their dialect.
So do you think that was really the Holy Spirit or am I lying, and were those folks in that Jungle lying.Other than knowing that if something truly supernatural was going on, it wasn't from God. Aside from that, I have no idea what was going on.
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I am still wainting on the Scriptures that you base your opinion on that the Holy Spirit does not give gifts anymore since John wrote Revelations. Since you are so firm about your belief, surely you have Scripture for it.
Speaking of "mioptic".....more evidence you simply don't bother to read the posts very closely since I've given many scriptural passages to support my position.
None of your post prove anything, other than You have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. As for your professer also. For when I was Baptized at 16 yoa I had no idea what tongues even were and the Holy spirit fell on me and I begain speaking in tongues. Not even knowing about them, scared me to death, the Pastor had to explian what happen to me. Just as these folks are trying to explain to you now. Christ meant for the Unity of Believers, as Members of Christ Body.
(1Corinthians 12:12) For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, so also in Christ. So I will repeat myself; Would you say Paul is a part of the body of Christ? But in the same breath say you are not?
Respectfully
R Dove
Shall I assume your remarks are intended for me? If so, they give abundant evidence you haven't a clue as to what being baptized in the Holy Spirit is.
God has completed His revelation to the "body of Christ" regardless of those who insist He hasn't.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/20/2009 2:33:33 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
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Kelman, in your view if a person is 'called' by the Lord into ministry would that not be a 'new revelation?' It's a 'new revelation' for the person who is being called, right..?
Let's say a person is believing they are called to go into ministry, but are unsure if it is really God...then down the road they are visiting a church service, and someone comes to them, whom they have never met or ever known, and they have a Word from the Lord for them...this person proceeds to inform the 'called one' that they believe the Lord is calling them into ministry; first in a Spiritual tongue, then interpreted. This is what many would call 'confirmation,' and in this case would be a confirmation of what the person had been feeling all along; God was calling them into ministry.
Following so far..?
So, would the 'Word' of confirmation be a moving of the Holy Spirit in your opinion? Would that not be a confirmation of the 'new revelation' to this person?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/20/2009 2:38:40 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2728
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Kelman, in your view if a person is 'called' by the Lord into ministry would that not be a 'new revelation?' It's a 'new revelation' for the person who is being called, right..?
Let's say a person is believing they are called to go into ministry, but are unsure if it is really God...then down the road they are visiting a church service, and someone comes to them, whom they have never met or ever known, and they have a Word from the Lord for them...this person proceeds to inform the 'called one' that they believe the Lord is calling them into ministry; first in a Spiritual tongue, then interpreted. This is what many would call 'confirmation,' and in this case would be a confirmation of what the person had been feeling all along; God was calling them into ministry.
Following so far..?
So, would the 'Word' of confirmation be a moving of the Holy Spirit in your opinion? Would that not be a confirmation of the 'new revelation' to this person?
Matthew
Using that, wouldn't any direction at all by the Holy Spirit be a "new revelation?"
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rawr.ben
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/20/2009 2:39:55 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
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Exactly... 
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/20/2009 3:12:43 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
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FELETICAS GOODMAN's bio.
With all the stuff she was studying, I'm not so sure I would believe her studies on speaking in tongues; but that's just my personal opinion.
Looks as if she has studied some pretty intense rituals that may have clouded her judgement. I do not know if she is a Christian, but I do know that delving deeply into anthropology can jade one's understanding of scripture.
Just a thought.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/20/2009 3:28:58 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE WEBSITE has some interesting chatter on the topic.
Here is an excerpt from the site that I thought was interesting...
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Brain scans of people speaking in tongues:
A group of researchers at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine used Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography (SPECT) to analyze brain activity within individuals as they spoke in tongues. It was the first study of this kind. During this technique, a small quantity of a radioactive drug is injected into a person's vein. The scanner then makes detailed images of tissues as cells take up the drug.
During an interview on 2006-SEP-20 by Steve Paulson, Andrew Newberg -- Associate Professor of Radiology, Psychiatry, and Religious Studies and Director for the Center for Spirituality and the Mind, at the University of Pennsylvania -- said that the region of the brain involved in language is not activated when a person speaks in tongues. He said:
"Speaking in tongues is a very unusual kind of vocalization. It sounds like the person is speaking a language, but it’s not comprehensible. And when people have done linguistic analyses of speaking in tongues, it does not correspond to any clear linguistic structure. So it seems to be distinct from language itself. That’s interesting because we did not see activity in the language areas of the brain. Of course, if somebody is a deep believer in speaking in tongues, the source of the vocalizations is very clear. It’s coming from outside the person. It’s coming through the spirit of God. 11
They found decreased activity in the brain's frontal lobes, an area associated with self-control. One of the researchers, Andrew Newberg, said: "It’s fascinating because these subjects truly believe that the spirit of God is moving through them and controlling them to speak." The data partly confirms the subjects' beliefs. In fact, the subjects are not in control of their usual language centers as they spoke in tongues.
Newberg, who is Principal Investigator in the study, was later interviewed about his team's article in the journal Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging. He stated:
"We noticed a number of changes that occurred functionally in the brain. Our finding of decreased activity in the frontal lobes during the practice of speaking in tongues is fascinating because these subjects truly believe that the spirit of God is moving through them and controlling them to speak. Our brain imaging research shows us that these subjects are not in control of the usual language centers during this activity, which is consistent with their description of a lack of intentional control while speaking in tongues."
Newberg went on to explain,
"These findings could be interpreted as the subject's sense of self being taken over by something else. We, scientifically, assume it's being taken over by another part of the brain, but we couldn't see, in this imaging study, where this took place. We believe this is the first scientific imaging study evaluating changes in cerebral activity -- looking at what actually happens to the brain -- when someone is speaking in tongues. This study also showed a number of other changes in the brain, including those areas involved in emotions and establishing our sense of self."
The study also compared the brain activity in the same subjects as they sang gospel music. Newbert said: "We noticed a number of changes" including in brain regions tied to emotions and the sense of self. 12,13
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I found it fascinating that these tests were being done probably with people who were just 'speaking' their prayer language. We do not know if the Holy Spirit was a part of the tests Himself...
Matthew
< Message edited by ironsharpensiron -- 6/20/2009 3:35:40 AM >
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/20/2009 3:45:28 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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Kelman...I do have another question for you. It may seem off-topic, but bear with me...
Since you adamantly believe speaking in tongues ended when Revelation was penned, do you also believe, and practice, that Saturday is and should be the Christian's only 'church day?'
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/20/2009 10:11:43 PM
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DoveMinistries
Posts: 308
Joined: 6/8/2009
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quote:
Shall I assume your remarks are intended for me? If so, they give abundant evidence you haven't a clue as to what being baptized in the Holy Spirit is.
God has completed His revelation to the "body of Christ" regardless of those who insist He hasn't.
Well thats part of the problem. We are to study only one book, and that is the Holy Bible. And use our faith, which I can see here, there is lack of.
We are called believer's for a reason. And if we dont believe one thing He said, then we call Christ a lier.
Those who stay in the boat only ever need the Disiples. So brother I tell you, step of unto the water. You are missing alot more that Christ has to offer you.
(Ephesians4:30) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. What day? Sealed by who?
Brother I am not allways right, but on this matter I will assure you I am not wrong. By the evidence shown to me by God. Amen.
R Dove
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/21/2009 12:22:12 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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Something has been on my mind all day, it actually started sparking last night when I was searching the 'two' names that Kelman offered for his viewpoint.
I truly believe that if one is raised in a church system where it is preached that tongues, and other workings of the Holy Spirit, is 'taboo' then that bias will be evident in a person into adulthood. Now, I do not know the churched lives of the two linguistic people, but I would say that if they were raised believing it was not of God, then that teaching would be evident in their studies. They would be so adamant about debunking tongues, that they would more than likely not even know true giftings of such if it hit them on the head. In other words, they have hardened their hearts so much against it that they would actually be grieving the Holy Spirit.
It would seem to me that if a person is raised in a church believing in the gifting in this area, then they are more open (more free) to the Holy Spirit, and what He has to offer.
My dad was born and raised in a strict RCC. My mom in the Pentacostal Holiness. They were both unsaved and wanted nothing to do with God when they came of age. Eventually both became saved, and called into the ministry. Considering both of their differing backgrounds the Lord put them in the ranks of the Wesleyan/Methodist. That was what I grew up in; a calm, demure, very structured church denomination who did not believe in the giftings of tongues.
When I became an adult the Lord impressed upon me that what I had been taught was not of God; that it indeed 'was' of God. And, later, discovered that my dad had believed so as well, but being in the denomination we were in, didn't share that aspect of his walk with too many.
I battled it in my mind and heart for some time, mainly because of how I was 'taught' growing up. But the Holy Spirit was, and is, a true gentleman and gradually showed me His way, and time.
That was about twenty years ago when I first uttered the words that the Holy Spirit had given to me. I would not ever go back and change it!! It has given me much more freedom in worship, in understanding His Word, and in living the Christian life.
Based upon my own experience, if one is taught something is of the devil, of course they're going to believe it, and try anything possible to dissuade others from practicing it. I wonder though, if the linguistic people mentioned had been brought up in a more charismatic church, if their studies would have turned out differently... 
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/21/2009 12:43:01 AM
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DoveMinistries
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Well put Matthew.
And I agree with you. It is how one is taught, on what and how they believe.
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/21/2009 4:58:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Kelman, in your view if a person is 'called' by the Lord into ministry would that not be a 'new revelation?' It's a 'new revelation' for the person who is being called, right..? God leads us all the time. If He leads someone, or someone "thinks" he is being led into a particular ministry, that's not being given a vision, dream, audible word or a new "revelation".
quote:
Let's say a person is believing they are called to go into ministry, but are unsure if it is really God...then down the road they are visiting a church service, and someone comes to them, whom they have never met or ever known, and they have a Word from the Lord for them...this person proceeds to inform the 'called one' that they believe the Lord is calling them into ministry; first in a Spiritual tongue, then interpreted. This is what many would call 'confirmation,' and in this case would be a confirmation of what the person had been feeling all along; God was calling them into ministry.
Following so far..? Yep.
quote:
So, would the 'Word' of confirmation be a moving of the Holy Spirit in your opinion? Would that not be a confirmation of the 'new revelation' to this person? No, it would not be. God is not speaking in that manner today. God speaks to us through His completed Word not by a "word" given to another. Certainly, God can bring people into our lives who encourage or motivate us but not by revelatory gifts since Scripture is completed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Kelman...I do have another question for you. It may seem off-topic, but bear with me...
Since you adamantly believe speaking in tongues ended when Revelation was penned, do you also believe, and practice, that Saturday is and should be the Christian's only 'church day?'
Matthew
No, because it is confirmed in Scripture that the Lord's Day is Sunday - the "new" Sabbath.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/21/2009 5:02:02 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Something has been on my mind all day, it actually started sparking last night when I was searching the 'two' names that Kelman offered for his viewpoint.
I truly believe that if one is raised in a church system where it is preached that tongues, and other workings of the Holy Spirit, is 'taboo' then that bias will be evident in a person into adulthood. Now, I do not know the churched lives of the two linguistic people, but I would say that if they were raised believing it was not of God, then that teaching would be evident in their studies. They would be so adamant about debunking tongues, that they would more than likely not even know true giftings of such if it hit them on the head. In other words, they have hardened their hearts so much against it that they would actually be grieving the Holy Spirit. Professor Samarin is a linguistic expert so there's no reason to attach any particular bias to him, especially without any evidence.
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It would seem to me that if a person is raised in a church believing in the gifting in this area, then they are more open (more free) to the Holy Spirit, and what He has to offer. It stands to reason if one is raised in a "signs and wonders" church, he would continue in such practices. Although, hopefully not forever.
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I battled it in my mind and heart for some time, mainly because of how I was 'taught' growing up. But the Holy Spirit was, and is, a true gentleman and gradually showed me His way, and time. I have a particular abhorence of calling the Holy Spirit "a true gentleman" afterall He is Almighty God Himself.
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Based upon my own experience, if one is taught something is of the devil, of course they're going to believe it, and try anything possible to dissuade others from practicing it. I wonder though, if the linguistic people mentioned had been brought up in a more charismatic church, if their studies would have turned out differently... Can experts in various fields be influenced by their environment?...I guess so. Still, to say that an expert is biased simply because his conclusions differ from your experiences is, I think, really somewhat unfair. Perhaps it is you who are biased because of your environment and not the Professor?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/21/2009 5:05:35 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
quote:
Shall I assume your remarks are intended for me? If so, they give abundant evidence you haven't a clue as to what being baptized in the Holy Spirit is.
God has completed His revelation to the "body of Christ" regardless of those who insist He hasn't.
Well thats part of the problem. We are to study only one book, and that is the Holy Bible. Who has suggested studying anything other than the Bible? Actually, the problem is those who seek more than the Bible, they seek "signs and wonders".
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And use our faith, which I can see here, there is lack of. I praise God there is a "lack of faith" in your gospel.
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We are called believer's for a reason. And if we dont believe one thing He said, then we call Christ a lier. Yes, and why not believe when He says "do not add to the prophecies of this book"?
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Those who stay in the boat only ever need the Disiples. So brother I tell you, step of unto the water. You are missing alot more that Christ has to offer you. Well, God seems to think the ship's a pretty safe place to be: "Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved."
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(Ephesians4:30) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. What day? Sealed by who? Have you read the rest of the chapter? It has absolutely nothing to with new revelation from God. It is speaking about how a true child of God should conduct himself.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/21/2009 9:03:19 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6721
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
quote:
Shall I assume your remarks are intended for me? If so, they give abundant evidence you haven't a clue as to what being baptized in the Holy Spirit is.
God has completed His revelation to the "body of Christ" regardless of those who insist He hasn't.
Well thats part of the problem. We are to study only one book, and that is the Holy Bible. Who has suggested studying anything other than the Bible? Actually, the problem is those who seek more than the Bible, they seek "signs and wonders".
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And use our faith, which I can see here, there is lack of. I praise God there is a "lack of faith" in your gospel.
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We are called believer's for a reason. And if we dont believe one thing He said, then we call Christ a lier. Yes, and why not believe when He says "do not add to the prophecies of this book"?
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Those who stay in the boat only ever need the Disiples. So brother I tell you, step of unto the water. You are missing alot more that Christ has to offer you. Well, God seems to think the ship's a pretty safe place to be: "Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved."
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(Ephesians4:30) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. What day? Sealed by who? Have you read the rest of the chapter? It has absolutely nothing to with new revelation from God. It is speaking about how a true child of God should conduct himself.
And onece again you err by claiming that any dream, prophecy, or tongue is a "New Revelation", which of course is not the case.
You seem to be alright with leading as long as it does not include any of the ways that Scripture speaks that it can be; dreams, visions, etc.
Why are you so afraid of the ministry of the Holy Spirit that is so plainly laid out in the Scriptures you claim to hold so dear?
And by the way; there will be new revelation revealed like when the Father gives the scroll to the Son, and then the revelation of the end time will be revealed to all. So I guess if you see or hear that it will not be true; but if you conjure it up in your own mind then it is a go? Wow.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/21/2009 11:35:25 PM
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DoveMinistries
Posts: 308
Joined: 6/8/2009
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quote:
I praise God there is a "lack of faith" in your gospel.
Now I understand, Under the law... Not under Grace. Are you would know these things which we all speak of to you.
Hearing but do not hear, and seeing you do not see.
Again Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Pretty sure last time I checked forever was just that. And do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the Heart be established by grace.
By the way its called the Gospels of Jesus Christ. (not my gospel)
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Have you read the rest of the chapter? It has absolutely nothing to with new revelation from God. It is speaking about how a true child of God should conduct himself.
(Ephesians4:30) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. What day? Sealed by who?
Still didnt answer the question. ^
Verse 30 is the one I was pointing out, not the rest of the chapter. Sence you say there is nothing new from the Holy Spirit. Was kinda wondering how you where gonna be redemded?
And before you answer, you did say all that ended after the Bible was written. Right?
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 2:19:47 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
quote:
Shall I assume your remarks are intended for me? If so, they give abundant evidence you haven't a clue as to what being baptized in the Holy Spirit is.
God has completed His revelation to the "body of Christ" regardless of those who insist He hasn't.
Well thats part of the problem. We are to study only one book, and that is the Holy Bible. Who has suggested studying anything other than the Bible? Actually, the problem is those who seek more than the Bible, they seek "signs and wonders".
quote:
And use our faith, which I can see here, there is lack of. I praise God there is a "lack of faith" in your gospel.
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We are called believer's for a reason. And if we dont believe one thing He said, then we call Christ a lier. Yes, and why not believe when He says "do not add to the prophecies of this book"?
quote:
Those who stay in the boat only ever need the Disiples. So brother I tell you, step of unto the water. You are missing alot more that Christ has to offer you. Well, God seems to think the ship's a pretty safe place to be: "Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved."
quote:
(Ephesians4:30) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. What day? Sealed by who? Have you read the rest of the chapter? It has absolutely nothing to with new revelation from God. It is speaking about how a true child of God should conduct himself.
And onece again you err by claiming that any dream, prophecy, or tongue is a "New Revelation", which of course is not the case. Sure it is. God completed His message to mankind when the Book of Revelation was completed around 95AD. Any other "word" from God would be an addition, and would of necessity, be "new" revelation from Him. But, of course, God will not violate His own Word.
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You seem to be alright with leading as long as it does not include any of the ways that Scripture speaks that it can be; dreams, visions, etc. No, Scripture doesn't say the Holy Spirit leads us today through dreams, visions and tongues . These types of "prophecies" are forbidden once God completed the Bible.
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Why are you so afraid of the ministry of the Holy Spirit that is so plainly laid out in the Scriptures you claim to hold so dear? The better question is, why is Scripture not sufficient for you? Why are you so fearful that you must add to it? None of the "gifts" claimed today measure-up up to the NT gifts. A superior covenant with inferior gifts? No, this business is not from God.
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And by the way; there will be new revelation revealed like when the Father gives the scroll to the Son, and then the revelation of the end time will be revealed to all. So I guess if you see or hear that it will not be true; but if you conjure it up in your own mind then it is a go? Wow.
No, the revelation of the last days has been written. Although, God will open the understanding to what has already been written but He will not give new revelation.
The problelm is those in the signs and wonders gospel might be unlikely to heed the warnings in Mat 24 "23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 2:22:26 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
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I praise God there is a "lack of faith" in your gospel.
Now I understand, Somehow, I doubt that you do and I'm sure you will shortly demonstrate precisely that.
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Under the law... Not under Grace. All are commanded to obey God's laws - even the law not to add to His Word.
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Again Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Pretty sure last time I checked forever was just that. The Lord Jesus Christ was, is and always will be God. That's what this verse is referring to. But clearly, we know from Scripture that Christ deals with people differently in different times. So while this is a beautiful verse, it is irrelevant to the present discussion of tongues, dreams, visions, etc.
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And do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the Heart be established by grace. Yes, by grace but not by signs and wonders.
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Have you read the rest of the chapter? It has absolutely nothing to with new revelation from God. It is speaking about how a true child of God should conduct himself.
(Ephesians4:30) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. What day? Sealed by who?
Still didnt answer the question. ^
Verse 30 is the one I was pointing out, not the rest of the chapter. The rest of the chapter is the context in which vs 30 is found. It clarifies the meaning, and you cannot divorce the verse from its context to make it say something it isn't.
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Sence you say there is nothing new from the Holy Spirit. Was kinda wondering how you where gonna be redemded? I didn't say there was nothing new from the Holy Spirit. Of course, there is. Everytime He opens the eyes of understanding and applies the Gospel to the one being saved - it is NEW. But, the Holy Spirit will not give additional/new dreams, visions, etc.
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And before you answer, you did say all that ended after the Bible was written. Right? Nope, not "right" - at all.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 2:45:19 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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God leads us all the time. If He leads someone, or someone "thinks" he is being led into a particular ministry, that's not being given a vision, dream, audible word or a new "revelation".
I strongly disagree with you here, but there is no point in dicussing this further since I already know where you stand.
It is fascinating to me that you place God in a box; do you ever let Him out..?
Like I previously stated, I grew up believing as you, but praise God He opened my eyes!!
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 2:49:30 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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No, it would not be. God is not speaking in that manner today. God speaks to us through His completed Word not by a "word" given to another. Certainly, God can bring people into our lives who encourage or motivate us but not by revelatory gifts since Scripture is completed.
Than how, pray tell, does a person motivate us when they have never met us before yet get their 'encouraging word' spot on? That could only be the working of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 2:57:57 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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No, because it is confirmed in Scripture that the Lord's Day is Sunday - the "new" Sabbath.
This is quite interesting to me because one of the sites that touts Ms. Goodman says otherwise...
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"Today there are a substantial number of Christians who are unaware that some of the beliefs in Christian Churches have originated from manmade traditions and paganism. The current day of worship is a good example of this as it originated from sun worship which is why we have the pagan name SUN-day. It was not changed in honour of the resurrection as some claim and history confirms that all Christians worshipped on Saturday until at least 120 AD, when persecution for Judaism caused some to change days in fear of their lives. Millions also died through the dark ages for refusing to worship on Sunday that was made law in the fourth century and is why all except around five hundred denominations now worship on Sunday. These are facts unbeknown to most Christians today.
We also trust the example of Jesus and Paul who always kept the Sabbath. Paul was a Pharisee and hence a Jew and followed the Jewish ways to the strictest letter. Acts 26:3-5 “The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee.” Notice in the following verse that this is a Jewish synagogue and that Jews have all through history, without change, worshipped on Saturday as they still do today. Acts 17:2 “…they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As his CUSTOM was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.” Since it was the custom of Jesus, (Luke 4:16) Paul and the early Church, and Jesus assured us not one stroke of the law is going to pass, then we also follow their example and enjoy the promised blessings of God’s Holy Sabbath day. Most of the misunderstanding in this area comes from confusion between the Mosaic Law (ended) and the Ten Commandment law."
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Would this be incorrect? It sure sounds believable to me...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 3:00:34 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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Professor Samarin is a linguistic expert so there's no reason to attach any particular bias to him, especially without any evidence
Okay. Do you have any evidence to say otherwise..?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 3:02:32 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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It stands to reason if one is raised in a "signs and wonders" church, he would continue in such practices. Although, hopefully not forever.
If you are suggesting the likes of Benny Hinn & friends, then we actually agree on something.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 3:08:19 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
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I have a particular abhorence of calling the Holy Spirit "a true gentleman" afterall He is Almighty God Himself.
God is not gentle..? Does He not love His children..? Or are you more comfortable with a jealous God? Or a God of justice? Which, of course, He is that, although in my life He, God Almighty, is loving, caring, and gentle towards me.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 3:16:31 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
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Can experts in various fields be influenced by their environment?...I guess so. Still, to say that an expert is biased simply because his conclusions differ from your experiences is, I think, really somewhat unfair. Perhaps it is you who are biased because of your environment and not the Professor?
Merely something to ponder, sir, and not unfair. Based upon your answer, and circular reasoning, I suppose you either have no real thoughts on this or have never thought of this before. Or probably both.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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