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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/22/2009 3:38:15 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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Kelman, if I may ask, in what denomination were you raised? It would help to better understand where you are coming from.
Thank you.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/23/2009 12:39:37 AM
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DoveMinistries
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quote:
Kelman, if I may ask, in what denomination were you raised? It would help to better understand where you are coming from.
it's odvious what he's not....lol
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The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 3:53:26 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
quote:
God leads us all the time. If He leads someone, or someone "thinks" he is being led into a particular ministry, that's not being given a vision, dream, audible word or a new "revelation".
I strongly disagree with you here, but there is no point in dicussing this further since I already know where you stand.
It is fascinating to me that you place God in a box; do you ever let Him out..? That's simply an empty rejoinder which really means: "I don't agree with your explanation but I don't have an argument in response".
Whether you understand or not God actually is in a box. He cannot act contrary to His nature. God's very attributes which we see described in Scripture define Him, they describe His "box".
Seems you prefer an arbitrary God, one who will do anything and everything you want?
He has declared there would be no further revelation from Him in dreams, visions, tongues, etc., and He will not violate His own words. He will not step from His "box" and lie.
quote:
Like I previously stated, I grew up believing as you, but praise God He opened my eyes!! And, I once believed as you do, but now with the evidence from Scripture and the illumination of the Holy Spirit, I've been freed from the stranglehold of the "signs and wonders" gospels.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 3:58:16 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
quote:
No, because it is confirmed in Scripture that the Lord's Day is Sunday - the "new" Sabbath.
This is quite interesting to me because one of the sites that touts Ms. Goodman says otherwise... What's that got to do with anything? Someone asked for "linguistic" experts, I provided them. I have no idea what Goodman's view on the Sunday Sabbath is nor do I see how it's relevant.
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"Today there are a substantial number of Christians who are unaware that some of the beliefs in Christian Churches have originated from manmade traditions and paganism. The current day of worship is a good example of this as it originated from sun worship which is why we have the pagan name SUN-day. It was not changed in honour of the resurrection as some claim and history confirms that all Christians worshipped on Saturday until at least 120 AD, when persecution for Judaism caused some to change days in fear of their lives. Millions also died through the dark ages for refusing to worship on Sunday that was made law in the fourth century and is why all except around five hundred denominations now worship on Sunday. These are facts unbeknown to most Christians today. "These are facts unbeknown to most Christians today" probably because they are untrue. It's frankly stupid to use as support that SUN-day originates from pagans. EVERY day of the week including Saturday(named after the god Saturn) comes from that pagan period of time.
Philip Schaff who is a noted church historian cites Ignatius, Barnabus and Justin Martyr as observing the first day of the week. History includes Dionysius, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian of Africa and numerous others attesting to Sunday as the day of worship from the beginning of the church.
Schaff writes: "Sunday… was adopted by the early Christians as a day of worship.. . Sunday was emphatically the weekly feast of the resurrection of Christ, as the Jewish Sabbath was the feast of creation. It was called the Lords day, and upon it the primitive church assembled to break bread. No regulations for its observance are laid down in the new testament nor, indeed, is its observance even enjoined. Yet Christian feeling led to the universal adoption of the day, in imitation of the apostolic precedence. In the second century its observance was universal." Schaff- Herzog Encyclopedia of religious knowledge 1891 Ed., vol.4 Article on Sunday
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We also trust the example of Jesus and Paul who always kept the Sabbath. Paul was a Pharisee and hence a Jew and followed the Jewish ways to the strictest letter. Acts 26:3-5 “The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee.” Notice in the following verse that this is a Jewish synagogue and that Jews have all through history, without change, worshipped on Saturday as they still do today. Acts 17:2 “…they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. As his CUSTOM was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.” Paul went to the synagogues on Saturday because that's where the Jews were and he was evangelizing them.
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Since it was the custom of Jesus, (Luke 4:16) Paul and the early Church, and Jesus assured us not one stroke of the law is going to pass, then we also follow their example and enjoy the promised blessings of God’s Holy Sabbath day. Most of the misunderstanding in this area comes from confusion between the Mosaic Law (ended) and the Ten Commandment law." Goodman is confused here, as are many. The seventh day Sabbath was a ceremonial law which pointed to the fact that we can do no work to save ourselves. The ceremonial laws are no longer practiced.
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Would this be incorrect? It sure sounds believable to me... No, it is not correct. If it sounds believeable to you, perhaps you haven't fully investigated all that Scripture has to say on the matter.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 4:18:30 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
quote:
Professor Samarin is a linguistic expert so there's no reason to attach any particular bias to him, especially without any evidence
Okay. Do you have any evidence to say otherwise..?
Matthew
It is you who makes the claim he is biased, therefore, the burden of proof is upon you to prove your claim.
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It stands to reason if one is raised in a "signs and wonders" church, he would continue in such practices. Although, hopefully not forever.
If you are suggesting the likes of Benny Hinn & friends, then we actually agree on something.
No, any church that has a gospel of signs and wonders which would include visions, dreams, tongues, etc.
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I have a particular abhorence of calling the Holy Spirit "a true gentleman" afterall He is Almighty God Himself. God is not gentle..? Don't obfuscate. You didn't say God is gentle; you said the Holy Spirit is a gentleMAN.
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Does He not love His children..? And you introduce this red herring exactly why?
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Or are you more comfortable with a jealous God? Or a God of justice? Which, of course, He is that, although in my life He, God Almighty, is loving, caring, and gentle towards me. I'll play, but I wouldn't be so complacent: "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ****s, and not sons."
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Can experts in various fields be influenced by their environment?...I guess so. Still, to say that an expert is biased simply because his conclusions differ from your experiences is, I think, really somewhat unfair. Perhaps it is you who are biased because of your environment and not the Professor? Merely something to ponder, sir, and not unfair. Of course, you're being unfair. You have no evidence and yet you accuse him of being biased...why?...because he doesn't agree with you? That's plenty unfair.
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Based upon your answer, and circular reasoning "My" circular reasoning? All you've offered is: "he's bias because I say he's bias"........lol
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I suppose you either have no real thoughts on this or have never thought of this before. Or probably both. Hmm, you might be right. Unlike you, I don't automatically think an individual is biased nor would I accuse someone of bias simply because he doesn't agree with me.
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Kelman, if I may ask, in what denomination were you raised? It would help to better understand where you are coming from. Actually, I don't think it would help much since I've written nothing other than that which comes from Scripture. In any event, I was raised a Roman Catholic but did a stint in a "signs and wonders" church.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 8:54:48 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Kelman, if I may ask, in what denomination were you raised? It would help to better understand where you are coming from. Actually, I don't think it would help much since I've written nothing other than that which comes from Scripture. In any event, I was raised a Roman Catholic but did a stint in a "signs and wonders" church.
Interesting.
Most folks are more that willing to share thier denominations, Hmmmmmmmm.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 9:04:57 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
He has declared there would be no further revelation from Him in dreams, visions, tongues, etc., and He will not violate His own words. He will not step from His "box" and lie.
I have said that I agree there will be no 'New" revelation outside of Scripture, but do really deny that God would not do as Scripture says and the Holy Spirit would birng edification, exhortation, and/or comfort to His children?
(1Co 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
Do you deny that the Holy Spirit guides us, and that Scriptue plainly says that that guidance can come from an inner unction, as well as words from others, dreams, visions, etc. Not new revelation, but guidance as promised.
Was Joel lying, and was Peter lying, and was Paul lying, was Jesus lying about these the Spirit and His Ministry?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 4:30:31 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
That's simply an empty rejoinder which really means: "I don't agree with your explanation but I don't have an argument in response".
Actually, no. What it meant was there is no point in discussing because we are both set on what our viewpoints are.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 4:35:50 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
Whether you understand or not God actually is in a box. He cannot act contrary to His nature. God's very attributes which we see described in Scripture define Him, they describe His "box".
Seems you prefer an arbitrary God, one who will do anything and everything you want?
He has declared there would be no further revelation from Him in dreams, visions, tongues, etc., and He will not violate His own words. He will not step from His "box" and lie.
I agree there are some things God cannot do; sin. So, yes, there is a kind of 'box' when it comes to that. The 'box' I was refering to regards this current discussion of the person of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 4:37:23 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
And, I once believed as you do, but now with the evidence from Scripture and the illumination of the Holy Spirit, I've been freed from the stranglehold of the "signs and wonders" gospels.
Would the 'illumination of the Holy Spirit' be a revelation to you..? 
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 4:48:36 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
What's that got to do with anything? Someone asked for "linguistic" experts, I provided them. I have no idea what Goodman's view on the Sunday Sabbath is nor do I see how it's relevant.
You didn't need to go through all the process that you did, but thank you for doing so. A simple answer would have sufficed.
I brought up the Sabbath/Sunday issue, not just because they touted Goodman's premise on speaking in tongues, but also to make a point. You claim we are wrong and quote many scriptures to prove your side correct. It is ironic that these people who believe the Sabbath is the only day for worship qoute many scriptures as well, and reason their opinions based on their interpretation of scripture and other historical venues.
Of course your claim is that they are wrong, which wasn't a surprise, and you cite bunches of stuff to 'prove' they are incorrect. See where I am going here..?
They are doing the same as you are, citing scripture yet interpreting them as you would view them. Since they used scripture and historical data how can you say they are incorrect in their assumptions? Can you then be incorrect in your assumptions as well or are you all-knowing?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 4:51:43 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
No, it is not correct. If it sounds believeable to you, perhaps you haven't fully investigated all that Scripture has to say on the matter.
I suppose I will have to start using the 'winking smiley' in the future since you couldn't see the sarcasm... 
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 4:55:13 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
It is you who makes the claim he is biased, therefore, the burden of proof is upon you to prove your claim.
Actually, if you would read my post, you will see that I never said they were biased. I simply posed the question that they 'could' be because we do not know their background.
Are you willing to take their word as truth without knowing where their personal convictions come into play? Isn't that trusting in man more than trusting in the Holy Spirit?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 5:01:36 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
Don't obfuscate. You didn't say God is gentle; you said the Holy Spirit is a gentleMAN.
Don't try and make something into more than what it is. It seems you are now 'picking' at straws. You knew very well what I was stating.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 5:10:32 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
Actually, I don't think it would help much since I've written nothing other than that which comes from Scripture. In any event, I was raised a Roman Catholic but did a stint in a "signs and wonders" church.
Thank you for sharing. I do appreciate it.
Nothing to do with you ~~ many years ago (possibly twenty) I read a statistic that most RC's that left the RCC went into the full gospel churches. They would spend maybe two or three years in them, get burned out, then leave for either a more calm/demure church or go back to the RCC.
Not sure how acurate that statistic was/is, although it does make sense.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 5:24:11 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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The institute Goodman founded
Based upon the 'new age' beliefs by this person, I, personally, would not consider her 'findings' to be something a Christian should follow. But, hey, that's just me...
How can people, who have no personal relationship with the Lord, say if something is or is not of God..?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/24/2009 8:34:33 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Original:kelman
quote:
Actually, I don't think it would help much since I've written nothing other than that which comes from Scripture. In any event, I was raised a Roman Catholic but did a stint in a "signs and wonders" church
Hey kelman I wonder what their finding my be on this.
Story catches eye of the Vatican.YAHOO'S HOME PAGE.June 24,2009
Is it a miracle that Colwich man survived?
Colwich athlete's story catches eye of Vatican investigator
BY ROY WENZL
The Wichita Eagle
Chase Kear sits and relaxes at the Wesley Rehabilitation Center a week ago. Kear suffered a traumatic brain injury while pole vaulting during a practice at Hutchinson Community College. The right side of Kear's skull was removed to relieve pressure off his swelling brain after the accident.
The piece of Chase Kear's skull that was removed during surgery to relieve pressure on his brain has been replaced with a ceramic piece. Kear was injured during a pole vaulting accident last October. An offical from the Vatican is scheduled to be in Wichita next week to investigate the canonization of Fr. Emil Kapuan. Relatives of Chase prayed the Fr. Kapaun prayer often while Chase was near death.
COLWICH - "Chase survived in part because hundreds of people prayed to Father Emil Kapaun to intercede on his behalf. It was absolutely a miracle." — Paula Kear, Chase's mother
People in Colwich like to touch Chase Kear's arm or his shoulder with their fingers. Or they hug him. "Miracle Man," they say. "Let me touch the miracle." With anybody else in Colwich, this would be just talk. But it's not just talk to the Vatican.
Prompted in part by what the Kear family has said publicly, and partly by a preliminary investigation begun by the Catholic Diocese of Wichita, a Vatican investigator named Andrea Ambrosi will arrive from Italy in Wichita on Friday.
He will investigate on behalf of the church in Rome whether 20-year-old Chase Kear's survival qualifies as a miracle; whether he survived a severe head injury last year in part because his family and hundreds of friends successfully prayed thousands of prayers to the soul of Father Emil Kapaun, a U.S. Army chaplain from Pilsen, Kan., who died a hero in the Korean War.
Ambrosi, a lawyer by training, is coming here to thoroughly "and skeptically" investigate whether Chase's story is a miracle, said the Rev. John Hotze, the judicial vicar for the Wichita diocese. The church requires miracles to elevate a person to sainthood.
Hotze has investigated Kapaun's proposed sainthood for eight years, which is only a fraction of the time the church has been considering whether to elevate Kapaun to sainthood.
Soldiers came out of prisoner-of-war camps in 1953 with incredible stories about Kapaun's heroism and faith. Across Kansas, his memory is kept alive at Wichita's Kapaun Mount Carmel High School, in his hometown of Pilsen and elsewhere.
Kapaun is so well-known and so highly regarded by area Catholics that the diocese has received other reports of miracles involving Kapaun, Hotze said. Ambrosi on Friday will consult area physicians in at least three such cases, including Chase's, Hotze said.
Only two American-born people have ever been canonized as saints. For sainthood, the church will require at least one and possibly two miracles be proven on Kapaun's behalf, depending on whether he died a martyr, something the church is also trying to determine.
Among people that Ambrosi will consult on Friday will be Chase's neurosurgeon, Raymond Grundmeyer, who said in a brief e-mail last week that he considers Chase's survival a miracle.
If Ambrosi's report concurs, more church officials would still have to evaluate the case, but it would further a cause that Kapaun's fellow prisoners of war and Catholic Church officials have carried on for years: to persuade the church to declare Father Kapaun a saint.
"There is no doubt in anyone's mind in our family that Father Kapaun helped save our son," Paula Kear said of Chase, who is making a full recovery. "We were told at least three or four times in those first two days that Chase wasn't going to make it.
"Dr. Grundmeyer did a great job in saving him, but even he said he couldn't explain why he survived."
Father Kapaun
Kapaun was a chaplain assigned to the U.S. Army's Eighth Cavalry regiment, which was surrounded and overrun by the Chinese army in North Korea in October and November 1951.
Kapaun became a hero, rescuing wounded soldiers from the battlefield and risking death by preventing Chinese executions of wounded Americans too injured to walk.
He became a hero again in prison camp, stealing food for prisoners, ministering to the sick, saying the rosary for soldiers, defying guards' attempts to indoctrinate soldiers, making pots and pans out of roofing tin so that soldiers could boil snow into drinking water and boil lice out of their filthy clothing.
Hundreds of American prisoners died in the camp of exposure or starvation or illness that first winter. The Chinese guards did nothing to tend Kapaun when he became sick; he died in May 1951, two years before the war ended.
Soldiers who survived have praised Kapaun for decades; some of them have said he deserved not only sainthood but the Medal of Honor, in addition to the lesser Distinguished Service Cross the Army awarded him after his death.
Chase's accident
The Kear family says Kapaun's role in Chase Kear's survival 57 years later began about two hours after their son was injured.
Chase, a member of the Hutchinson Community College track team, fell on his head during pole vaulting practice in October.
By the time a helicopter delivered him to Via Christi Regional Medical Center-St. Francis Campus, his family was already frantically praying as they watched the helicopter land.
Within an hour of that landing, Paula Kear's sister, Linda Wapelhorst, was asking a priest at St. Francis to perform the Catholic sacrament of anointing the sick, which used to be called last rites.
And she was calling Sacred Heart Church in Colwich, asking people there to get everyone in the church praying to Father Kapaun for help.
In the following days, Grundmeyer and others had told the family that Chase's skull had been cracked from ear to ear, that his brain was swelling, and that either the surgery to remove a skull piece or the infection that might follow would probably kill him.
Paula and Paul Kear and dozens of other people made regular trips to the chapel at St. Francis to pray, always with the Father Emil Kapaun prayer.
The Kapaun prayer had become a standard for parishioners in Colwich since a priest from the parish had come down with cancer several months before.
"Father Emil Kapaun gave glory to God by following his call to the priesthood and thus serving the people of Kansas and those in the military," the prayer says. "Father Kapaun, I ask you intercession not only for Chase Kear... but that I too may follow your example of service to God and my neighbor. For the gifts of courage in battle and perseverance of faith, we give you thanks oh Lord."
What happened next, Grundmeyer said last week, was "a miracle."
The family agrees. Only a few weeks after Chase broke his skull, he walked out of a rehabilitation hospital, shaken but alive.
His near-complete recovery stunned all the doctors involved, Paul and Paula Kear said.
"Chase survived in part because hundreds of people prayed to Father Emil Kapaun to intercede on his behalf," Paula Kear said.
"It was absolutely a miracle."
Chase himself says he has little memory of what happened. For interested visitors, he will calmly part his thick hair with his fingers and show the long semi-circular scar that traverses much of the right side of his scalp.
He's working a summer job and plans to coach the pole-vaulters at the Hutchinson Community College. He misses vaulting; he's grateful to Grundmeyer and Kapaun.
"So how does it feel to be a miracle?" his mother asked him last week.
"It feels pretty cool," he said.
quote:
No, any church that has a gospel of signs and wonders which would include visions, dreams, tongues, etc.
kelman did you include miracle's in the etc. part ? It is listed with the gifts.
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/26/2009 2:08:09 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Kelman, if I may ask, in what denomination were you raised? It would help to better understand where you are coming from. Actually, I don't think it would help much since I've written nothing other than that which comes from Scripture. In any event, I was raised a Roman Catholic but did a stint in a "signs and wonders" church.
Interesting.
Most folks are more that willing to share thier denominations, Hmmmmmmmm.
Thanks
RC
Apparently, you didn't even read the above post to which you responded. I guess you were just hoping to latch onto something to "get" me....shame.
He asked: "what denomination were you raised"
and I answered:
"I was raised a Roman Catholic". (see above)
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/26/2009 2:10:32 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
quote:
That's simply an empty rejoinder which really means: "I don't agree with your explanation but I don't have an argument in response".
Actually, no. What it meant was there is no point in discussing because we are both set on what our viewpoints are.
Matthew
Nope, your little "God in a box" is precisely that - an empty rejoinder - as you have proven and will, no doubt, continue to prove.
quote:
I agree there are some things God cannot do; sin. So, yes, there is a kind of 'box' when it comes to that. The 'box' I was refering to regards this current discussion of the person of the Holy Spirit.
The term offers no intellectual observation, it’s totally unproductive and is simply a cop-out allowing those using it to pretty much believe what they want without foundation.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
The institute Goodman founded
Based upon the 'new age' beliefs by this person, I, personally, would not consider her 'findings' to be something a Christian should follow. But, hey, that's just me...
How can people, who have no personal relationship with the Lord, say if something is or is not of God..?
Matthew
Your posts are filled with red herrings. You continually attempt to divert attention from the basic issue. One, she is a linguistic expert NOT a theologian and two, it's never been suggested that anyone should follow her....whatever that means.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/26/2009 2:13:51 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
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What's that got to do with anything? Someone asked for "linguistic" experts, I provided them. I have no idea what Goodman's view on the Sunday Sabbath is nor do I see how it's relevant.
You didn't need to go through all the process that you did, but thank you for doing so. A simple answer would have sufficed. As with many scriptural prinicples a simple "yes or no" answer often will not suffice. We can only come to scriptural truth when we apply all passages that relate to the subject matter at hand.
quote:
I brought up the Sabbath/Sunday issue, not just because they touted Goodman's premise on speaking in tongues, but also to make a point. You claim we are wrong and quote many scriptures to prove your side correct. It is ironic that these people who believe the Sabbath is the only day for worship qoute many scriptures as well, and reason their opinions based on their interpretation of scripture and other historical venues. What Goodman believes about the Saturday sabbath or, in fact, any biblical doctrine is irrelevant. Her "expertise", along with that of Professor Samarin's is that of linguistics and were provided as such. They were not offered as theologians.
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Of course your claim is that they are wrong, which wasn't a surprise, and you cite bunches of stuff to 'prove' they are incorrect. See where I am going here..?
Somehow, I doubt you’re going very far.
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They are doing the same as you are, citing scripture yet interpreting them as you would view them. Since they used scripture and historical data how can you say they are incorrect in their assumptions? Can you then be incorrect in your assumptions as well or are you all-knowing?
Confirming my doubts. Where did either expert use Scripture to confirm their linguistic conclusions?
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/26/2009 2:22:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
quote:
It is you who makes the claim he is biased, therefore, the burden of proof is upon you to prove your claim.
Actually, if you would read my post, you will see that I never said they were biased. I simply posed the question that they 'could' be because we do not know their background. Nope, most definitely not true. You couldn’t be any more clear that you though they were biased. The following are from some of your previous posts.
From post 234
"I wonder though, if the linguistic people mentioned had been brought up in a more charismatic church, if their studies would have turned out differently”. That is statement made from bias.
From post 238
”I truly believe that if one is raised in a church system where it is preached that tongues, and other workings of the Holy Spirit, is 'taboo' then that bias will be evident in a person into adulthood. Now, I do not know the churched lives of the two linguistic people, but I would say that if they were raised believing it was not of God, then that teaching would be evident in their studies. They would be so adamant about debunking tongues, that they would more than likely not even know true giftings of such if it hit them on the head. In other words, they have hardened their hearts so much against it that they would actually be grieving the Holy Spirit."
Those are statements made from bias unsuccessfully couched within misapplied biblical terms.
In addition...
I said: "Professor Samarin is a linguistic expert so there's no reason to attach any particular bias to him, especially without any evidence."
to which you replied:
"Okay. Do you have any evidence to say otherwise..?"
Here you are asking for evidence that they are not biased, thereby indicating you believe them to be.
quote:
Are you willing to take their word as truth without knowing where their personal convictions come into play? Isn't that trusting in man more than trusting in the Holy Spirit? Again, you are indicating they are biased...apparently, you just can't stop it, notwithstanding your denials and NO evidence that they are.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/26/2009 2:26:01 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
Original:kelman
quote:
Actually, I don't think it would help much since I've written nothing other than that which comes from Scripture. In any event, I was raised a Roman Catholic but did a stint in a "signs and wonders" church
Hey kelman I wonder what their finding my be on this.
Story catches eye of the Vatican.YAHOO'S HOME PAGE.June 24,2009 As much mumbo-jumbo as the "miracle" healings in your church; but, at least you don't canonize your "healers".
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/26/2009 3:13:37 AM
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ironsharpensiron
Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/21/2006
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
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Well, Kelman, it's been an interesting journey. It's really too bad you feel I was being biased, when I really was not. I apologize if the way my posts were worded led you to that conclusion, but truthfully, I was just posing questions so that we could see things from different angles.
For me, when an 'expert' is brought into a discussion concerning Christianity, it is my belief that there should be a known 'walk with the Lord' from that 'expert.' I would hope that you would agree on this mainly because unless a person 'knows' God in a real and personal manner how would they truly understand His ways?
I brought up the institute Goodman founded because it raises red flags, not red herrings, on what she has based her life on. She may have been a great linguistic expert, but it looks as if she had no real relationship with the Lord, thus my thoughts that her 'expertize' is lacking for lack of knowledge of who God is.
Isn't that an important issue? It is to me. I'm alright with someone who is really trying to be nuetral, and come to an educated assumption, although I would rather the nuetral person knows the Lord. Is that too much to ask..? You may disagree with me on this, but that is okay. We're all individuals. We're all wired differently. That's fine. In all this I hope you wil be respectful of my belief, of my interpretation of God's Word. I will in turn be respectful of yours.
By the way, you never commented on my post #231. Below is the excerpt of a study done, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what they discovered.
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Brain scans of people speaking in tongues:
A group of researchers at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine used Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography (SPECT) to analyze brain activity within individuals as they spoke in tongues. It was the first study of this kind. During this technique, a small quantity of a radioactive drug is injected into a person's vein. The scanner then makes detailed images of tissues as cells take up the drug.
During an interview on 2006-SEP-20 by Steve Paulson, Andrew Newberg -- Associate Professor of Radiology, Psychiatry, and Religious Studies and Director for the Center for Spirituality and the Mind, at the University of Pennsylvania -- said that the region of the brain involved in language is not activated when a person speaks in tongues. He said:
"Speaking in tongues is a very unusual kind of vocalization. It sounds like the person is speaking a language, but it’s not comprehensible. And when people have done linguistic analyses of speaking in tongues, it does not correspond to any clear linguistic structure. So it seems to be distinct from language itself. That’s interesting because we did not see activity in the language areas of the brain. Of course, if somebody is a deep believer in speaking in tongues, the source of the vocalizations is very clear. It’s coming from outside the person. It’s coming through the spirit of God. 11
They found decreased activity in the brain's frontal lobes, an area associated with self-control. One of the researchers, Andrew Newberg, said: "It’s fascinating because these subjects truly believe that the spirit of God is moving through them and controlling them to speak." The data partly confirms the subjects' beliefs. In fact, the subjects are not in control of their usual language centers as they spoke in tongues.
Newberg, who is Principal Investigator in the study, was later interviewed about his team's article in the journal Psychiatry Research: Neuroimaging. He stated:
"We noticed a number of changes that occurred functionally in the brain. Our finding of decreased activity in the frontal lobes during the practice of speaking in tongues is fascinating because these subjects truly believe that the spirit of God is moving through them and controlling them to speak. Our brain imaging research shows us that these subjects are not in control of the usual language centers during this activity, which is consistent with their description of a lack of intentional control while speaking in tongues."
Newberg went on to explain,
"These findings could be interpreted as the subject's sense of self being taken over by something else. We, scientifically, assume it's being taken over by another part of the brain, but we couldn't see, in this imaging study, where this took place. We believe this is the first scientific imaging study evaluating changes in cerebral activity -- looking at what actually happens to the brain -- when someone is speaking in tongues. This study also showed a number of other changes in the brain, including those areas involved in emotions and establishing our sense of self."
The study also compared the brain activity in the same subjects as they sang gospel music. Newbert said: "We noticed a number of changes" including in brain regions tied to emotions and the sense of self. 12,13
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Alrighty then...Have a blessed day!
Matthew
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"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/26/2009 10:04:55 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6723
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"I was raised a Roman Catholic". (see above)
So are you at the present Roman Catholic ?
If not then please share with us what denominaton you are with, as it will greatly aid this discussion.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/26/2009 5:30:50 PM
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DoveMinistries
Posts: 308
Joined: 6/8/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:ORIGINAL: kelman
"I was raised a Roman Catholic". (see above)
quote:
Story catches eye of the Vatican.YAHOO'S HOME PAGE.June 24,2009
Ok he's starting to confuse me. RC I am with Matthew and you, does this respones make sence?
DoveMinistries:
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kelman did you include miracle's in the etc. part ? It is listed with the gifts.
yes or no question;
kelman:
quote:
As much mumbo-jumbo as the "miracle" healings in your church; but, at least you don't canonize your "healers".
What kind of answer is this?
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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