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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/27/2009 1:22:44 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
Well, Kelman, it's been an interesting journey. It's really too bad you feel I was being biased, when I really was not. I apologize if the way my posts were worded led you to that conclusion, but truthfully, I was just posing questions so that we could see things from different angles.
For me, when an 'expert' is brought into a discussion concerning Christianity, it is my belief that there should be a known 'walk with the Lord' from that 'expert.' I would hope that you would agree on this mainly because unless a person 'knows' God in a real and personal manner how would they truly understand His ways? No, a linguistic expert was offered - not a theologian. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.
quote:
I brought up the institute Goodman founded because it raises red flags, not red herrings, on what she has based her life on. She may have been a great linguistic expert, but it looks as if she had no real relationship with the Lord, thus my thoughts that her 'expertize' is lacking for lack of knowledge of who God is.
Isn't that an important issue? No, in fact, it is not an important issue as it pertains to linguistics.
quote:
It is to me. I'm alright with someone who is really trying to be nuetral, and come to an educated assumption, although I would rather the nuetral person knows the Lord. Is that too much to ask..? Again, why are you making the assumption that Professor Samarin is not "neutral"?
quote:
By the way, you never commented on my post #231. Below is the excerpt of a study done, I'd like to hear your thoughts on what they discovered. I guess his findings are suspect since we can't determine his "walk with the Lord", he might be biased. That radiologist does seem a mite suspect :)
Seriously, his conclusions line up precisely with that of Samarin and Goodman - it is not a language. The "tongues" found in today's charismatic churches have no language character. This does not line-up with Scripture. The tongues in Scripture are always seen to be literal languages(see Acts 2:6-8; Rev 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15; 1Cor 14:2l; Isa 28:11).
Whatever type of vocalization is going on stems from emotional sources. The same type of emotion evidenced when a heartfelt song is sung - even the National Anthem or God Bless America. That was the findings of the study you offered.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/27/2009 1:24:11 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
quote:
quote:ORIGINAL: kelman
"I was raised a Roman Catholic". (see above)
quote:
Story catches eye of the Vatican.YAHOO'S HOME PAGE.June 24,2009
Ok he's starting to confuse me. RC I am with Matthew and you, does this respones make sence?
DoveMinistries:
quote:
kelman did you include miracle's in the etc. part ? It is listed with the gifts.
yes or no question;
kelman:
quote:
As much mumbo-jumbo as the "miracle" healings in your church; but, at least you don't canonize your "healers".
What kind of answer is this?
R Dove
Rather, more to the point, what kind of questions are these? You deliberately and not too honorably conflate two different posts hoping to achieve exactly what?
I'll leave you guys to yourselves, since it's apparent you've nothing left but personal attacks.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/27/2009 5:45:08 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Sorry but only one post #267 The begining of the post and the end, which is in question form. You can not twist this one to evade the question, however you can choose not to answer though.
Start of post:quote:
Hey kelman I wonder what their finding my be on this.
Story catches eye of the Vatican.YAHOO'S HOME PAGE.June 24,2009
Is it a miracle that Colwich man survived?
And your the one that said your raised "Roman Catholic." and you are also the one who said that you did not believe; I Quote:
End of post:
quote:
quote:Original kelman
No, any church that has a gospel of signs and wonders which would include visions, dreams, tongues, etc.
Original:DoveMinistries;kelman did you include miracle's in the etc. part ? It is listed with the gifts.
And you still did not answer!
Again post # 267 all one not two!
And not attacking anyone. simply debating. Maybe you just did not read the post.
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/27/2009 5:45:58 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2730
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Seriously, his conclusions line up precisely with that of Samarin and Goodman - it is not a language. The "tongues" found in today's charismatic churches have no language character. This does not line-up with Scripture. The tongues in Scripture are always seen to be literal languages(see Acts 2:6-8; Rev 5:9; 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 14:6; 17:15; 1Cor 14:2l; Isa 28:11).
All the study proves is that it wasn't the individual doing the talking cognitively. Isn't that what Paul talks about when he says that even though he spoke in tongues, his mind was still active elsewhere? That the speaking part wasn't HIS doing? Because, then, it wouldn't be a gift of the Holy Spirit, but just someone with language skills.
quote:
Whatever type of vocalization is going on stems from emotional sources. The same type of emotion evidenced when a heartfelt song is sung - even the National Anthem or God Bless America. That was the findings of the study you offered.
Oy Vey. Are you qualified to interpret the study that you didn't even get to see?
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rawr.ben
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/27/2009 5:49:37 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
I'll leave you guys to yourselves, since it's apparent you've nothing left but personal attacks.
It speaks volumes of the person you are; I have not made any 'personal attacks' on you, but have only posed questions that are differing from 'your opinion.' It is unfortunate you have not, or choose not to see this.
Matthew
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/27/2009 5:54:05 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
All the study proves is that it wasn't the individual doing the talking cognitively. Isn't that what Paul talks about when he says that even though he spoke in tongues, his mind was still active elsewhere? That the speaking part wasn't HIS doing? Because, then, it wouldn't be a gift of the Holy Spirit, but just someone with language skills.
That's the impression I got out of it as well. I was just really hoping some one else would have undertsood that. Oh, well...
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/27/2009 6:17:25 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
No, a linguistic expert was offered - not a theologian. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.
Again, you have not read my responses. I never said anything about a 'theologian' at any time; only you have. I guess I have to state it further...I have stated that, in my personal belief, that any 'expert' in linguistics (who is studying the work of the Holy Spirit) should have a known 'walk with the Lord.' You are so adamant about your opinion you are reading what is not there. Again, isn't it important for a person who is studying a part of Christianity to have a belief and personal walk with God? How can anyone make assumptions about God if they do not know Him and His ways?
Obviousely this is not a problem in your views.
And, might I add, that out of hundreds, possibly thousands, of linguistic 'experts,' you have only produced two that did their studies thirty years ago; the two that follow your opinions, and one with a questionable belief system at that.
That sounds a lot more 'biased' than me posing questions about their 'religious' backgrounds.
Here is another question that maybe you can shed some light on...
Why then, the gift of the Holy Spirit when tongues is concerned, is it mentioned at all in scripture? Would it make sense for God to inspire the use of tongues and interpretation if He was going to stop its use after the apostles died? It seems to me a lot of writing for nothing if that was the case. There a lots of stuff not mentioned in the Bible because it is stuff we don't need to know (an example would be Jesus childhood). If the gifting of tongues wasn't for us today then why mention it at all to begin with..? 
We would still have the core Word of God without those scriptures, right? God placed them there for a purpose. Not just to show us what we missed, what we can never attain ~~ sort of like teasing us ~~ but to show us and teach us what the Holy Spirit has for us.
So, enlighten us. Why would God inspire those things to be documented in scripture if He had no intention for us to use them?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/28/2009 3:32:04 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Romans11:29 answers all of our questions about gifts.
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/28/2009 4:37:04 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
That's a fair point. One of the criterions used when determining the canonization of certain works was the appliability to people.
Sorry rawr.ben, but I must have missed the Scripture that describes how to "Cannonize" folks.
Could you please provide those Scritpures?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/28/2009 7:40:34 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2730
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
That's a fair point. One of the criterions used when determining the canonization of certain works was the appliability to people.
Sorry rawr.ben, but I must have missed the Scripture that describes how to "Cannonize" folks.
Could you please provide those Scritpures?
Thanks
RC
There isn't a Scripture I am using. I am stating that the councils that worked together and decided which books made it into the canon had different criteria they worked with, and one of them was it was applicable and orthodox.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/30/2009 1:29:25 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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It's been quiet in here the last couple of days. I was rather enjoying the discussion.
Am I to assume we will not be continuing..?
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/30/2009 7:03:05 PM
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DoveMinistries
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I think kelman took offence, and for us we all agree.
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/30/2009 10:05:33 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
It's been quiet in here the last couple of days. I was rather enjoying the discussion.
Am I to assume we will not be continuing..?
Matthew
There's an interesting discussion going on in the music thread about whether or not Freddy and the gang from Queen were or are Christians...you might try that out
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/1/2009 12:22:27 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
There's an interesting discussion going on in the music thread about whether or not Freddy and the gang from Queen were or are Christians...you might try that out
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/1/2009 12:18:59 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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That is an interesting thread, Solarflare...I honestly do not understand where people get such ideas when those people's lives do not reflect anything remotely of Jesus.
Matthew
_____________________________
"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/1/2009 5:34:32 PM
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solarflare
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I think it's because talent like Mr. Mercury possessed is just such a terrible waste if the person never had the choice of accepting Jesus or not. We don't know....but conjecture, is not truth...and that was my point all along.
Thanks very much!
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/6/2009 3:57:23 AM
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Godhead
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Personally If I want to see a clown I will go to the circus. 
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! ... They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD. And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have SEDUCED my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace. (Eze 13:3, 6-10)
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1Th 5:3)
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to SEDUCE, if it were possible, even the elect.
(Mar 13:22)
_____________________________
"Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ. It is always by his word that he manifests himself to those whom he designs to draw to himself." (John Calvin)
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/6/2009 8:44:35 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Godhead
Personally If I want to see a clown I will go to the circus.
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! ... They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD. And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have SEDUCED my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace. (Eze 13:3, 6-10)
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1Th 5:3)
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to SEDUCE, if it were possible, even the elect.
(Mar 13:22)
Good Word Godhead, and those who try to eliminate the ministry of the Holy Spirit from the lives of Believers are definately false teachers.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/6/2009 8:19:49 PM
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Godhead
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I think that you may have missed my point, that is that what happened in the time of Ezekiel is also happening today in the church. So much so that it even overshadows it. If you read the commentary by Mathew Henry on the entire chapter of Ezekiel 13 you will see just how relevant it is. I just erg people to read the chapter and read what Matthew Henry has said. Make up your own minds. Falsely prophesying is not the work of the holy Spirit. These men are seducers, who teach doctrine that flatter the people out of their own imagination and not God's word. The sins in Ezekiel 13 are happening today in the church. They are the ones who say that the Holy spirit is speaking through them.
"Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name?"
_____________________________
"Faith consists in the knowledge of God and Christ. It is always by his word that he manifests himself to those whom he designs to draw to himself." (John Calvin)
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/6/2009 10:50:21 PM
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DoveMinistries
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quote:
Falsely prophesying is not the work of the holy Spirit.
Of course not. Its the work of Fasle prophets.
God Bless
R Dove
_____________________________
The Consummation of Love,
Love has been perfected amoung us in this; that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 1John 4:17
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/7/2009 12:26:12 AM
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solarflare
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You should know that this thread is not about:
quote:
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! ... They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word. Have ye not seen a vain vision, and have ye not spoken a lying divination, whereas ye say, The LORD saith it; albeit I have not spoken? Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore, behold, I am against you, saith the Lord GOD. And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD. Because, even because they have SEDUCED my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace. (Eze 13:3, 6-10)
It is about:
quote:
ORIGINAL: josephus777
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Did God do away with the prophetic gifting? Or did man?[/size]
This thread is not about:
quote:
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1Th 5:3)
And one more thing, concerning this Scripture:
quote:
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to SEDUCE, if it were possible, even the elect.
(Mar 13:22)
There would be no false Christs, prophets or signs and wonders if there were no authentic gifts of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 7/7/2009 12:28:54 AM
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ironsharpensiron
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Very nice, Solarflare.
Matthew
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"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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