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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 6:03:37 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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The weirdos out there who talk to angels every 5 minutes and speak words that never come true do not negate the truth and do not offer a reason for saying that there are no more spiritual gifts.
True, the "weirdos" may not offer a reason but the Bible does - not to add to the word of God.
Hmmm...let's see....I admit that many people are not operating in the power of the Holy Spirit, but from themselves and in some cases demonic spirits. These people are not adding to the word of God. Nope, doesn't change the fact these people are "proclaiming" what they say is from God and are trying to get others to have faith in what is not from God. They are proclaiming it is from God, iow, an addition to His Word.
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These people are twisting Scripture and applying same to their own supposed advantage. That, is not adding to Scripture. That, is ignoring what Scripture teaches much like saying that the gifts no longer exisit. Those who declare they are "hearing" from God are dismissing the very words of God - not to add to the Bible, and, yep, they are twisting Scripture.
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What thinking person would believe that we do not need supernatural strength in this day and age when we are bombarded on every side by satanic things. Then, to top it all off, we have this arm of Christianity that preaches a false gospel stating that the gifts are no longer needed.
I have come to believe that the worship of the word is a false idol...that is to say, believing that your own mind can grasp all the Bible teaches without the Holy Spirit, puffs up some and causes them to argue more than love. The Word is Jesus and He is the One who sent the Holy Spirit. A specious argument and one made of straw.
No. It is straight from Scripture. Are you saying Jesus did not promise the Holy Spirit? Are you saying the day of Pentecost did not occur? Are you saying that there are no gifts listed in the NT complete with instructions on how they are to be used?
Did you actually read what was written?...it appears not. The argument is specious because I never said we do not need supernatural strength nor did I say we can understand Scripture without the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. And your argument is pretty much more of the same.
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The only way God speaks today is through His Word as revealed by the Holy Spirit....not by men claiming they are "hearing" and getting messages from God.
That is not true. Your only example is one that every other person on this thread has already decried. Sorry, but the truth of Scripture is not determined by consensus.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 6:05:31 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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No, the Lord has not done away with the five fold ministries. Neither has He done away with miracles or anything else that Jesus did when he walked this earth.
Will you now offer your evidence for the dead being raised to life and the restoration of withered limbs?
The question by the OP is about prophetic gifting. You are introducing another topic here...the healings would fit under the description of 'signs'....not prophetic gifting. I am sure you may start another thread to discuss the above. You're still not reading what's been written. I didn't "introduce" anything. I was responding to the above bolded statement by another poster: "Neither has He done away with miracles or anything else that Jesus did when he walked this earth."
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 6:11:00 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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One thought more on this subject with regards to 'adding to the Bible'. This claim that people who believe they have something to say that is inspired by the Holy Spirit is 'adding to the Bible' is like a smokescreen for people who make that claim. That's a fairytale and a totally unacceptable unorthodox unscriptural idea that there is anyone inspired other than the ones God gave us in the Bible. There is no one today who is inspired and anyone who thinks they are is, at best, delusional.
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You have stated several times that anyone who supposedly has a word from God is adding to the Bible... That's correct. If anyone claims to have a special revelation from God, he is adding to His Word.
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I made the point that all words spoken by even OT prophets would be spurious unless included in the Bible. Are you operating under the false impression that every word spoken by Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, etc., was inspired? When they said: "looks like it's gonna rain today", that's inspired?...absurd.
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As that is highly unlikely, it would stand to reason that not every word spoken by prophets is recorded and it is equally unlikely that words not recorded were 'adding to the Bible' or, falsely spoken. Frankly, that "reasoning" is far from standing. God gave us the inspired words of the prophets that He wanted us to have - not one word more or less.
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Question: Does that make their claims that God gave them a message untrue? If only what is in the Bible is in fact from God, then every word spoken by these prophets that is not recorded in Scripture, with the claim that God had them say it, is a lie and then you must ask if any of what they say is true. It obviously does not follow that every word they said was a lie because it wasn't inspired. Whyever would you make the claim that aside from the recorded inspired words of these prophets they were otherwise inspired? God makes no claim of inspiring anyone other than those He gave us in Scripture....so why do you?
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Even most of what Jesus did on this earth is NOT in the Bible, according to the Bible. Does that make the unrecorded miracles not of God? The logic is faulty. Since Jesus is God, anything He did was "of God".
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Question: Where in the Scripture does it say that every word spoken on behalf of God is written down? Every inspired word from God that He wants us to have has been recorded. You're laboring under the false impression these penman remained inspired apart from the job God inspired them to do - pen Scripture.
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On the other hand, the NT is clear how we are to use the gifts given...for the edification of the body of Christ etc. We are to try the spirits and not believe that every spirit is of Christ. You, on the other hand say, never mind any of it! If you're going to make such specious claims, at least make an effort to support them. I've clearly said God is not giving addition revelation and just as clearly I said nothing about "trying the spirits". If you wish to present an argument against what I'm actually saying, then please do, otherwise, I will not argue the strawman arguments you insist upon raising.
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The Word of God is not just the letter.....it is also the Spirit and that which does not go against the written word and edifies the Body and is found to be true has most likely passed the test as to whether or not it does in fact, originate with God and is inspired in the individual through the Holy Spirit. I'm amazed you put the imaginary claims made by men on the same level as Holy Scripture. How illogical it is to say of God's inspiration "most likely". Is that how you see the Bible also...as "most likely"?
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 12:45:33 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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Nope, they wouldn't have to. My point is perfectly valid because most won't admit to adding to the Bible when they are, in fact, doing precisely that as they report their visions, dreams and voices "supposedly" from God.
You are adding to the Bible whenever you state that God no longer is active through His Spirit.
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Yep, it's something I believe because it is what Scripture teaches.
Well, you say that but you have not provided one single verse to back it up.
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You fail to mention the fact that the OT prophets were inspired, these other most definitely are not.
So the NT was not inspired? You choose to ingnore most of what I wrote.
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Easy to say, but so far you've yet to "plug" any holes you say you see.
I see. so Scripture that actually affirms what I wrote does not work for you?
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You miss understand my argument. I never said, nor do I believe that the Holy Spirit has stopped operating. If He did, we'd all be in trouble and unsaved. God is simply not adding to His Word, He has said He would not when He pronounced the curses on those who add to or take away from Scripture
You deny the gifts of the Spirit are still in existance. Therefore, you deny that the Holy spirit is working. You would like to confine Him to your own
ideologies and comfort zone.
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Exactly, the Bible is complete and those who add to it by claiming further direct revelation from God are in danger of the curses pronounced by God.
I have never added to the Bible. Removing verses that you have a problem with....such as saying the gifts are not for this day...surely must be something frowned upon too.....
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 12:56:10 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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Nope, doesn't change the fact these people are "proclaiming" what they say is from God and are trying to get others to have faith in what is not from God. They are proclaiming it is from God, iow, an addition to His Word.
We are all in agreement that alot of what passes for prophecy today is not. Why can't you get past that? You deny that there are any spiritual gifts in operation today. That, is what is being discussed here. You just keep saying the same thing over and over. We agree on that item. I do not agree that the Holy Spirit is dormant like you believe.
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Those who declare they are "hearing" from God are dismissing the very words of God - not to add to the Bible, and, yep, they are twisting Scripture.
Have you got yourself on instant replay? The above does not even make sense. Saying you 'heard' from God is your expression that you seem to be quite stuck on.
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Did you actually read what was written?...it appears not. The argument is specious because I never said we do not need supernatural strength nor did I say we can understand Scripture without the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. And your argument is pretty much more of the same.
Actually, you have chosen to ignore the following:
No. It is straight from Scripture. Are you saying Jesus did not promise the Holy Spirit? Are you saying the day of Pentecost did not occur? Are you saying that there are no gifts listed in the NT complete with instructions on how they are to be used?
Where do you stand re the above? Those things never happened? You think that the Holy Spirit does not do the same things today?
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Sorry, but the truth of Scripture is not determined by consensus.
This remark indicates that you did not understand what I wrote. Your complaint is about the false prophets and misuse of the gifts (for personal profit). I am stating that everyone on this thread agrees with that. I am not stating that truth is arrived at through concensus. Not at all.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 1:07:43 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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That's a fairytale and a totally unacceptable unorthodox unscriptural idea that there is anyone inspired other than the ones God gave us in the Bible. There is no one today who is inspired and anyone who thinks they are is, at best, delusional.
You have a very narrow observation confined to your own beliefs if you believe the word inspire is somehow hallowed and contained in its meaning to your own interpretation of same.
Paintings, music, poetry...even a speech...can be inspired....
To inspire does not mean to add to the Bible. A good sermon is inspired, a hymn can be inspired...I really hope you do not think the word inspire is sanctified in and of itself and has no meaning other than that which you have given it
Here is a def from the dictionary...lets hope the dictionary is not prejudiced...or perhaps delusional
5. To infuse into; to affect, as with a superior or supernatural influence; to fill with what animates, enlivens, or exalts; to communicate inspiration to; as, to inspire a child with sentiments of virtue; to inspire a person to do extraordinary feats
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 1:42:43 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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Are you operating under the false impression that every word spoken by Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, etc., was inspired? When they said: "looks like it's gonna rain today", that's inspired?...absurd.
No, I am not. I am sure they said many things that were not included in Scripture that they believed God told them to say. That, is what I am referring to. Sorry you had trouble with that.
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Frankly, that "reasoning" is far from standing. God gave us the inspired words of the prophets that He wanted us to have - not one word more or less.
Did I say otherwise? Your use of the word 'inspire' is alarming if you think if it is not in the Bible it cannot be inspired.
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It obviously does not follow that every word they said was a lie because it wasn't inspired. Whyever would you make the claim that aside from the recorded inspired words of these prophets they were otherwise inspired? God makes no claim of inspiring anyone other than those He gave us in Scripture....so why do you?
I made no such claim. You have quite a knack for adding to what I wrote.
Every time you say that the gifts are no longer in operation you deny what Scripture teaches. What do you know of what God claims? You deny hearing from Him.
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The logic is faulty. Since Jesus is God, anything He did was "of God".
So why do you deny that a Christian is also obeying God and doing what is of God when he/she practices a gift of the Holy Spirit?
There are charlatans but there are also the true followers of Jesus who would never betray His trust or try to gain something from a Spiritual gift.
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Every inspired word from God that He wants us to have has been recorded. You're laboring under the false impression these penman remained inspired apart from the job God inspired them to do - pen Scripture.
Actually, you are laboring under the impression I want to add to the Bible.
The problem is that you deny parts of the New Testament and I do not.
Nowhere does the NT teach that all prophecy should be has been or will be written down. Only a deaf person would say that God no longer speaks or acts through His Holy Spirit. God speaks through His word, first and primairly, but also through His Spirit in various ways. You, do not believe that. You are not alone. You have no Scriptural basis for that belief and that is perhaps why you continue in it.
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On the other hand, the NT is clear how we are to use the gifts given...for the edification of the body of Christ etc. We are to try the spirits and not believe that every spirit is of Christ. You, on the other hand say, never mind any of it!
If you're going to make such specious claims, at least make an effort to support them. I've clearly said God is not giving addition revelation and just as clearly I said nothing about "trying the spirits". If you wish to present an argument against what I'm actually saying, then please do, otherwise, I will not argue the strawman arguments you insist upon raising.
Where is the Scripture that supports your claim that the gifts are no longer in operation? I am not arguing...sorry if you are. You have no Scripture because there is none.
You know very well what Scripture teaches. You just do not believe it.
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The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God. We can be extraordinarlity grateful to God that we don't have to run around trying to hear the latest version of His "word". Afterall, if God is still speaking today, we should want to know what He says...did He speak in Peru today?....did He speak in New York today? No, God has completed His "Word".
BTW, do you think we still have "apostles" today?....the verse says we do. Hopefully, you answer in the negative. God did give us apostles and prophets as He was finishing the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Bible. Now, we have it all and that is what we preach or prophesy.
That, is what you believe. Why pick apostles?
1 Corinthians 12:4, 7-11 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.... (7) Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
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The Word of God is not just the letter.....it is also the Spirit and that which does not go against the written word and edifies the Body and is found to be true has most likely passed the test as to whether or not it does in fact, originate with God and is inspired in the individual through the Holy Spirit.
I'm amazed you put the imaginary claims made by men on the same level as Holy Scripture. How illogical it is to say of God's inspiration "most likely". Is that how you see the Bible also...as "most likely"?
Very disappointing that you do not recognize what is taught in Scripture. We are to try all things...part of that is holding it up against the written word. But, you would not understand that, even though I quote from the Bible, because you have decided it is no longer valid. For some reason, adding to Scripture alarms you no end, but cutting out the parts you have objection to, is not a problem. Go figure.
No one is saved without the Holy Spirit...no human being can save another. What you believe, is that having been saved, you are now able to grasp the Bible through study and intellect alone. Even that does not line up with NT teaching.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 3:31:25 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The argument is specious because I never said we do not need supernatural strength nor did I say we can understand Scripture without the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. And your argument is pretty much more of the same.
Kelman,
Could you please explain what you feel the ministry of the Holy Spirit is for today (If you think there is any).?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/16/2009 3:43:33 PM
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poetessfree
Posts: 568
Joined: 12/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
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No one has to say "anything about adding to the Bible" to be, in fact, doing so. If someone claims they are "prophesying", they are getting an additional message from God. It is absurd to say differently.
One thought more on this subject with regards to 'adding to the Bible'. This claim that people who believe they have something to say that is inspired by the Holy Spirit is 'adding to the Bible' is like a smokescreen for people who make that claim. You have stated several times that anyone who supposedly has a word from God is adding to the Bible....I made the point that all words spoken by even OT prophets would be spurious unless included in the Bible. As that is highly unlikely, it would stand to reason that not every word spoken by prophets is recorded and it is equally unlikely that words not recorded were 'adding to the Bible' or, falsely spoken.
Question: Does that make their claims that God gave them a message untrue? If only what is in the Bible is in fact from God, then every word spoken by these prophets that is not recorded in Scripture, with the claim that God had them say it, is a lie and then you must ask if any of what they say is true.
Question: Where in the Scripture does it say that every word spoken on behalf of God is written down? Even most of what Jesus did on this earth is NOT in the Bible, according to the Bible. Does that make the unrecorded miracles not of God?
On the other hand, the NT is clear how we are to use the gifts given...for the edification of the body of Christ etc. We are to try the spirits and not believe that every spirit is of Christ. You, on the other hand say, never mind any of it! None of that is for us today! The Word of God is not just the letter.....it is also the Spirit and that which does not go against the written word and edifies the Body and is found to be true has most likely passed the test as to whether or not it does in fact, originate with God and is inspired in the individual through the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
I wonder how many prophecies were given in the NT churches? Are they all included in the Bible?
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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The Sum of us is greater than all of our parts
Maya Angelou
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 1:25:21 AM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No need to justify God's Word by the evil actions of men. The fact remains those who claim a "word" from God are adding to the Bible...a dreadful sin and one for which God proclaims a curse.
Since the Bible itself makes a clear distinction between rhema and logos, and that the mandate against additions only applies to the logos, this sort of statement is as Scripturally baseless as it has always been.
On a practical note: I have to ask if the Holy Spirit never communicates with you directly? Do you never hear His gentle, reassuring voice when you need it most? If so, then you are guilty of the same sin because you have received "extrabilbical revelation" according to your reasoning.
Really, Kelman, you are aping a long standing dispensationalist belief which stands only on the a priori position that God must have dispensed with the Gifts because X number of people hadn't seen them operate. So, rather than admit they were lacking in faith, they started teaching that "Scripture clearly says" that the Gifts have been discontinued.
Except Scripture says nothing of the sort. The "that which is perfect is come..." gerrymandering of 1 Cor. 13 has nothing to do with the completed canon of the Bible. It has to do with the coming of the fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven.
The "adding to Scripture" argument is equally baseless. Why? Because no legitimate prophetic minister declares his/her words to be logos and equal to Scripture. As has been noted, the assumption that leads to this flawed thinking is that A-every Word God has spoken to any human being who ever lived is recorded in the Bible. and ergo B-the Bible contains everything God would choose to say to human beings for all time.
So, what do you expect when you pray? Do you ask for guidance, then open the Bible with your eyes closed to see which passage provides the answer? (since God is no longer speaking to people directly). If you do, you are practicing a form of soothsaying. That is far more of a sin than someone saying "God has laid it on my heart to tell you this in these words" which is essentially what prophetic ministry is.
Kelman, you can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is the standard against which any current communication from God is measured, whether it be that still small voice in answer to a prayer, or a dream or vision, or a prophetic utterance. Or God no longer communicates with us directly, having decided that the Bible contains all He has to say to His children, period. If this is the case, the Bible contains a lot of NT directives which are at best obsolete, and at worst contradictory.
Oh yeah, 1983, Kenya, a man named Erskine Holt was present when a young man, having been dead for over two days, sat up in his coffin.
Robert Cornwall (brother of author Judson Cornwall) witnessed a young woman suffering from polio as her legs regained proper size and strength.
Or just read the books about Smith Wigglesworth, Watchman Nee and others.
For that matter, I was present when an 8 year old boy, deaf in his left ear since he was a toddler, regained full hearing.
Just because you belong to a denomination which has decided it doesn't believe in such things (and therefore will not seek out information regarding miracles) doesn't mean they have ceased to happen. In fact, Jesus warned that God doesn't do many miracles among people who refuse to believe in them. Dispensationalism is a self-defeating theology when it comes to such things.
< Message edited by c_h_b -- 4/17/2009 1:52:48 AM >
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 5:59:43 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
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Nope, they wouldn't have to. My point is perfectly valid because most won't admit to adding to the Bible when they are, in fact, doing precisely that as they report their visions, dreams and voices "supposedly" from God.
You are adding to the Bible whenever you state that God no longer is active through His Spirit. The only one adding to anything is you as you add to my comments. I've unambiguously stated that the Holy Spirit is active.
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Yep, it's something I believe because it is what Scripture teaches.
Well, you say that but you have not provided one single verse to back it up. I have, you just don't like them.
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You fail to mention the fact that the OT prophets were inspired, these other most definitely are not.
So the NT was not inspired? You choose to ingnore most of what I wrote. Actually, I'm beginning to wish I ignored "all" of what you write since your tendency is to ignore plain English. Clearly, the other prophets I was speaking about are those today who think they're getting messages from God which, of course, they are not. You don't do your side any good with these attempts to obfuscate.
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Easy to say, but so far you've yet to "plug" any holes you say you see.
I see. so Scripture that actually affirms what I wrote does not work for you? Actually, I'm afraid you don't "see" at all. As I said, you've yet to present any support for your position.
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You miss understand my argument. I never said, nor do I believe that the Holy Spirit has stopped operating. If He did, we'd all be in trouble and unsaved. God is simply not adding to His Word, He has said He would not when He pronounced the curses on those who add to or take away from Scripture
You deny the gifts of the Spirit are still in existance. Therefore, you deny that the Holy spirit is working. You would like to confine Him to your own
ideologies and comfort zone. Convoluted logic not to mention distinctly opposite to what I explicitly said. You just have a problem with how the Holy Spirit works today.
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Exactly, the Bible is complete and those who add to it by claiming further direct revelation from God are in danger of the curses pronounced by God.
I have never added to the Bible. Removing verses that you have a problem with....such as saying the gifts are not for this day...surely must be something frowned upon too.....
Did I say that you added to the Bible?....nope. I don't remove any verses. I simply compare scripture with scripture to reach the correct biblical conclusion.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 6:03:35 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
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Nope, doesn't change the fact these people are "proclaiming" what they say is from God and are trying to get others to have faith in what is not from God. They are proclaiming it is from God, iow, an addition to His Word.
We are all in agreement that alot of what passes for prophecy today is not. Why can't you get past that? I don't "get past that" because the point I'm making is that no one is getting messages from God in audible words, visions or dreams. Perhaps if you could get that, we could get past it.
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You deny that there are any spiritual gifts in operation today. That, is what is being discussed here. Properly understood and in agreement with all scripture, of course, there are spiritual gifts but not in the way you claim. God is not superseding or suspending natural law. God works through natural means.
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You just keep saying the same thing over and over. We agree on that item. I do not agree that the Holy Spirit is dormant like you believe. Obviously, we don't agree on either "item".
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Those who declare they are "hearing" from God are dismissing the very words of God - not to add to the Bible, and, yep, they are twisting Scripture.
Have you got yourself on instant replay? The above does not even make sense. Saying you 'heard' from God is your expression that you seem to be quite stuck on. Since I'm speaking about those who claim they have "heard" from God, seems appropriate enough to repeat myself because you don't seem to have quite gotten the point.
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Did you actually read what was written?...it appears not. The argument is specious because I never said we do not need supernatural strength nor did I say we can understand Scripture without the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. And your argument is pretty much more of the same.
Actually, you have chosen to ignore the following: And for good reason it didn't make any sense then and it still doesn't.
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No. It is straight from Scripture. Are you saying Jesus did not promise the Holy Spirit? Are you saying the day of Pentecost did not occur? Are you saying that there are no gifts listed in the NT complete with instructions on how they are to be used?
Where do you stand re the above? Those things never happened? You think that the Holy Spirit does not do the same things today? I'll respond to the two bolded sentences since the others are nothing short of silly. Yes, there are gifts today; but, they are not the ones you propose....the ones that add to the Word of God and claim supernatural "miracles". The supernatural gift of prophecy was necessary during the time prior to the completion of the NT Scriptures. However, now that the Scriptures are complete there is no further need for oral revelation. The Scripture warns not to add to or take away from its teaching (Gal. 1:8-9; Rev. 22:18). People really ought to take these warnings seriously. The supernatural gift of prophecy ceased when the NT was completed, written down and preserved.
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Sorry, but the truth of Scripture is not determined by consensus.
This remark indicates that you did not understand what I wrote. Your complaint is about the false prophets and misuse of the gifts (for personal profit). I am stating that everyone on this thread agrees with that. I am not stating that truth is arrived at through concensus. Not at all.
Good, I'm glad you don't see concensus as the means by which we come to truth. Still, you've yet to properly or correctly state my position, instead, you prefer straw. I've repeatedly said I'm referring to ALL those who profess to be getting messages from God.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 6:05:45 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
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That's a fairytale and a totally unacceptable unorthodox unscriptural idea that there is anyone inspired other than the ones God gave us in the Bible. There is no one today who is inspired and anyone who thinks they are is, at best, delusional.
You have a very narrow observation confined to your own beliefs if you believe the word inspire is somehow hallowed and contained in its meaning to your own interpretation of same.
Paintings, music, poetry...even a speech...can be inspired.... Since the discussion is certered on the Bible, the only inspiration in view is that which comes from God. Your remarks are simply an attempt to muddy the context in which we are speaking to cover-up your belief that God is supernaturally inspiring the so-called "prophets" of today.
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To inspire does not mean to add to the Bible. A good sermon is inspired, a hymn can be inspired...I really hope you do not think the word inspire is sanctified in and of itself and has no meaning other than that which you have given it And I would really hope you'd at least make an attempt at a good-faith discussion instead of what you've been doing so far.
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Here is a def from the dictionary...lets hope the dictionary is not prejudiced...or perhaps delusional
5. To infuse into; to affect, as with a superior or supernatural influence; to fill with what animates, enlivens, or exalts; to communicate inspiration to; as, to inspire a child with sentiments of virtue; to inspire a person to do extraordinary feats
You're back peddling with dictionary definitions. We were speaking about the Bible and the inspiration of the penmen - not someone who writes a speech. You clearly believe that the "prophets" today are inspired by God - you said so here: "has most likely passed the test as to whether or not it does in fact, originate with God and is inspired in the individual through the Holy Spirit.". If you wish to now say you mis-spoke, fine.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 6:09:30 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Are you operating under the false impression that every word spoken by Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Micah, etc., was inspired? When they said: "looks like it's gonna rain today", that's inspired?...absurd.
No, I am not. I am sure they said many things that were not included in Scripture that they believed God told them to say. That, is what I am referring to. Sorry you had trouble with that. Nope, didn't have any trouble at all. You said exactly what you meant...that the OT prophets were inspired aside from the job God gave them - penning Scripture.
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Frankly, that "reasoning" is far from standing. God gave us the inspired words of the prophets that He wanted us to have - not one word more or less.
Did I say otherwise? Your use of the word 'inspire' is alarming if you think if it is not in the Bible it cannot be inspired. Actually, what is "alarming" is your belief that people are running around today with God given inspiration equal to that of Scripture.
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It obviously does not follow that every word they said was a lie because it wasn't inspired. Whyever would you make the claim that aside from the recorded inspired words of these prophets they were otherwise inspired? God makes no claim of inspiring anyone other than those He gave us in Scripture....so why do you?
I made no such claim. You have quite a knack for adding to what I wrote. You said precisely that. It wasn't that long ago so it's rather odd that you "forgot".
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Every time you say that the gifts are no longer in operation you deny what Scripture teaches. What do you know of what God claims? You deny hearing from Him. One "hears" from God when one meditates on His Word not by listening to those who make false claims.
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The logic is faulty. Since Jesus is God, anything He did was "of God".
So why do you deny that a Christian is also obeying God and doing what is of God when he/she practices a gift of the Holy Spirit? Since by "practicing a gift of the Holy Spirit" to you means receiving additional messages from God, it is not "of God" because now that the Scriptures are complete there is no further need for oral revelation and that gift is no longer in operation.
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There are charlatans but there are also the true followers of Jesus who would never betray His trust or try to gain something from a Spiritual gift. I've never said all those who think they are "practicing" a gift are charlatans, though, they are misguided.
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Every inspired word from God that He wants us to have has been recorded. You're laboring under the false impression these penman remained inspired apart from the job God inspired them to do - pen Scripture.
Actually, you are laboring under the impression I want to add to the Bible. Okay, about time you offer up some evidence for your assertions. Precisely where did I say that you want to add to the Bible? What I've clearly said is those who think they are getting messages from God ARE adding to the Bible - not that they want to, but that they ARE. Nor did I ever say you were doing so or wanted to do so. Now present evidence to the contrary or simply stop make such assertions.
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The problem is that you deny parts of the New Testament and I do not. Nope, the problem, for you at least, is that I understand the teaching and you do not.
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Nowhere does the NT teach that all prophecy should be has been or will be written down. We do not glean truth from Scripture by what it does not say, although, God most certainly has said we may not add to His Word.
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Only a deaf person would say that God no longer speaks or acts through His Holy Spirit. God speaks through His word, first and primairly, but also through His Spirit in various ways. You, do not believe that. You are not alone. You can't seem to get it right, can you? Of course, God speaks to us through His Word and the Holy Spirit enlightens us so that we may receive God's truths. But, most definitely God is not inspiring anyone today.
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The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God. We can be extraordinarlity grateful to God that we don't have to run around trying to hear the latest version of His "word". Afterall, if God is still speaking today, we should want to know what He says...did He speak in Peru today?....did He speak in New York today? No, God has completed His "Word".
BTW, do you think we still have "apostles" today?....the verse says we do. Hopefully, you answer in the negative. God did give us apostles and prophets as He was finishing the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Bible. Now, we have it all and that is what we preach or prophesy.
That, is what you believe. Why pick apostles? Well, yeah, obviously that's what I believe. Why don't you answer the question?.....do you think we still have "apostles" today?
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The Word of God is not just the letter.....it is also the Spirit and that which does not go against the written word and edifies the Body and is found to be true has most likely passed the test as to whether or not it does in fact, originate with God and is inspired in the individual through the Holy Spirit.
I'm amazed you put the imaginary claims made by men on the same level as Holy Scripture. How illogical it is to say of God's inspiration "most likely". Is that how you see the Bible also...as "most likely"?
Very disappointing that you do not recognize what is taught in Scripture. What's "disappointing" is your total inability to answer any question.
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We are to try all things...part of that is holding it up against the written word. But, you would not understand that, even though I quote from the Bible, because you have decided it is no longer valid. For some reason, adding to Scripture alarms you no end, but cutting out the parts you have objection to, is not a problem. Go figure.
Sure, it should alarm anyone who adds to Scripture in the face of God's ominous words: "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"
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No one is saved without the Holy Spirit...no human being can save another. What you believe, is that having been saved, you are now able to grasp the Bible through study and intellect alone. Even that does not line up with NT teaching.
What doesn't line up is your complete inability to get the facts of my position straight.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 6:14:07 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The argument is specious because I never said we do not need supernatural strength nor did I say we can understand Scripture without the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. And your argument is pretty much more of the same.
Kelman,
Could you please explain what you feel the ministry of the Holy Spirit is for today (If you think there is any).?
Thanks
RC
I'd be glad to explain and to answer the other posts, but right now I'm out of time. I'll try to get to it later in the day otherwise it will have to wait 'til my regular early morning hours.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 2:56:53 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
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kelman, is there any difference between someone who does not believe in God and is not saved or someone who says they are saved yet does not believe what God says in His word?
I think not.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 2:59:36 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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c_h_b....great post as was the other one. I have experienced healing myself and seen others healed. But that is not even the main issue here for me. I maintain that believers who think the Holy Spirit no longer operates in any way other than through the written word do not have a real relationship with God any more than someone who never knew there earthly father and all they have is a letter from him.
Thanks!
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/17/2009 10:47:19 PM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
c_h_b....great post as was the other one. I have experienced healing myself and seen others healed. But that is not even the main issue here for me. I maintain that believers who think the Holy Spirit no longer operates in any way other than through the written word do not have a real relationship with God any more than someone who never knew there earthly father and all they have is a letter from him.
Thanks!
Thanks. Personally, I wouldn't go so far to say that people who hold to a strict cessationist position lack a relationship with God. I feel they are doing something we all can do: gerrymandering Scripture to fit an opinion derived from experience, rather than assessing experience in light of Scripture.
Too often, such people resort to two primary techniques. Scripturally, they rely on snatching verses out of context from a variety of unrelated passages. Experientially, they resort to extremes ("if healing is still for today, why aren't people emptying out hospitals?" is a common challenge. Answer: for one, Jesus didn't do that, so why is expected we should?)
IMO, some people actually need to be in that sort of place to maintain faith. Like it or not, the Holy Spirit is tolerant of a lot of things that give us trouble.
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/18/2009 4:53:07 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The argument is specious because I never said we do not need supernatural strength nor did I say we can understand Scripture without the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. And your argument is pretty much more of the same.
Kelman,
Could you please explain what you feel the ministry of the Holy Spirit is for today (If you think there is any).?
Thanks
RC
Some gifts were foundational, and some were revelatory. With the foundation complete and revelation ceased, these gifts are now extinct. They were temporary gifts - gifts given to the church initially but given temporarily, nonetheless. This is explicitly outlined in Heb 2:3-4 ” how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was first communicated through the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard him, 4 while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.”
While the Holy Spirit is not giving additional divine revelation, He is still working in the world. Believers are given the spiritual gift of saving faith. We are given the gift to “spiritually” heal by proclaiming the Word of God and by prayer. We see this in the Book of James as the elders are called for a physically sick brother. We see, though, that it is spiritual sickness and salvation in view ”And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.” And, of course, we still have those who are especially gifted to be teachers, pastors and evangelists.
In Eph 4:11; 1Cor 12:28, we see that God gave some ministries which remain with us and some that don’t. ” And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;” So, it is very obvious that when some say “all” the gifts are for today that it is incorrect. At the end of God’s revelation for us in the Rev 22, God gives serious warning about adding to His word so we can know for a surety that He will not give any additional divine revelation in tongues, visions, dreams or audible word.
One good definition of spiritual gifts is the following: “a capacity for service which is given to every true Christian without exception and which is something each did not possess before he became a Christian.” Every true believer is given a manifestation of the Spirit. Every believer without exception is gifted in some manner by the Holy Spirit for Christian service. However, there’s a distinction to be made in the spiritual gifts between sign gifts (prophecy, tongues, miracles) that were given to the apostolic church to lay the foundation and continuing gifts (teaching, helps, etc.) that operate until the second advent.
The offices of apostle and prophet were unique to the situation of the church before the completion of the canon. Revelation was needed to produce the NT. And before the NT was completed, direct revelation was necessary to explain the work of Christ and to meet contemporary needs. After the NT canon was completed and the last prophet and apostle died, the revelatory gifts ceased.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/18/2009 5:14:25 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No need to justify God's Word by the evil actions of men. The fact remains those who claim a "word" from God are adding to the Bible...a dreadful sin and one for which God proclaims a curse.
Since the Bible itself makes a clear distinction between rhema and logos, and that the mandate against additions only applies to the logos, this sort of statement is as Scripturally baseless as it has always been. No, the mandate applies to the "Book" - the entire divine revelation from God.
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On a practical note: I have to ask if the Holy Spirit never communicates with you directly? Do you never hear His gentle, reassuring voice when you need it most? If so, then you are guilty of the same sin because you have received "extrabilbical revelation" according to your reasoning.
God communicates through Scripture - not extrabiblical revelation - because He would never contradict His Word.
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Really, Kelman, you are aping a long standing dispensationalist belief which stands only on the a priori position that God must have dispensed with the Gifts because X number of people hadn't seen them operate. More of your "extrabiblical revelation"?....or just ignoring the reasons I've given?
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So, rather than admit they were lacking in faith, they started teaching that "Scripture clearly says" that the Gifts have been discontinued. No doubt, they just had a desire to obey God's commandment by not adding to Scripture.
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Except Scripture says nothing of the sort. The "that which is perfect is come..." gerrymandering of 1 Cor. 13 has nothing to do with the completed canon of the Bible. It has to do with the coming of the fullness of the Kingdom of Heaven. A lovely opinion of yours, nonetheless, still just an opinion. It could as easily mean the completion of the canon of Scripture.
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The "adding to Scripture" argument is equally baseless. Why? Because no legitimate prophetic minister declares his/her words to be logos and equal to Scripture. A "prophet" of God who is not inspired?....now you're talking baseless. Of course, these individuals would be adding to Scripture if, in fact, they received a message from God. But, of course, they've received no such thing.
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As has been noted, the assumption that leads to this flawed thinking is that A-every Word God has spoken to any human being who ever lived is recorded in the Bible. and ergo B-the Bible contains everything God would choose to say to human beings for all time. Speaking of making assumptions, you're the one doing so. You have no evidence that God intended to continue revelation to "prophets" who nevertheless are not "inspired" as the true prophets of Scripture were. In fact, that is not only baseless but absurd considering what we know concerning true prophecy from Scripture.
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So, what do you expect when you pray? Do you ask for guidance, then open the Bible with your eyes closed to see which passage provides the answer? (since God is no longer speaking to people directly). If you do, you are practicing a form of soothsaying. That is far more of a sin than someone saying "God has laid it on my heart to tell you this in these words" which is essentially what prophetic ministry is. No, that is simply egotism and misuse of Scripture, nothing which resembles the true ministry of prophecy we find in Scripture.
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Kelman, you can't have it both ways. Either the Bible is the standard against which any current communication from God is measured,... There is no "current" communication from God outside of the Bible. And frankly, the view you espouse is very schizophrenic. On the one hand, that view claims divine revelation is not closed but continues. Yet, otoh, it wants to maintain the unique authority of Scripture. So, if anyone is looking to "have it both ways", it's you.
And, absolutely no where in Scripture do we find the vague so-called "prophecies" as seen in these churches. The true God given miracle of prophecy is reduced to nothing more than an exciting part of a service - a total departure from the true gift of prophecy found in the Word of God.
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...whether it be that still small voice in answer to a prayer, or a dream or vision, or a prophetic utterance. God has graced us with the wonderful gift of the Word of God, the Bible, and we can be absolutely certain that it is the Word of God. So, you are welcome to your vague "prophetic" utterances. The minute one tries to add to the Bible, from this vision or that tongue or whatever, and one person adds this, and another one adds that, and someone else adds something else and then attempt to interpret the Bible in the light of all this new information, they end up with a gospel that will take them almost anywhere. This is exactly what is happening today.
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Or God no longer communicates with us directly, having decided that the Bible contains all He has to say to His children, period. If this is the case, the Bible contains a lot of NT directives which are at best obsolete, and at worst contradictory. God communicates to His children directly through His Word never through what passes for "direct" revelation of today. Paul clearly taught the fact that the NT prophetic office is revelatory like the OT when he used such words as "mystery" and "revelation". But in these churches today those who proclaim: "God told me this, God told me that..." are about as dependable as a roll of the dice.
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Just because you belong to a denomination which has decided it doesn't believe in such things (and therefore will not seek out information regarding miracles) doesn't mean they have ceased to happen. Actually, it is because we seek out and have found the truth from Scripture that we can know for a certainty that the so-called sign miracles are not from God.
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In fact, Jesus warned that God doesn't do many miracles among people who refuse to believe in them. Dispensationalism is a self-defeating theology when it comes to such things.
Actually, what is self defeating is labels that don't apply and the misuse of Scripture. Christ didn't perform many miracles because they didn't believe in Him - not because they didn't believe in miracles(Mat 13:53-58).
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/18/2009 5:17:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
kelman, is there any difference between someone who does not believe in God and is not saved or someone who says they are saved yet does not believe what God says in His word?
I think not.
Well, I think that's an excellent question you might want to ask yourself.....but,you won't.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/18/2009 9:25:50 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The argument is specious because I never said we do not need supernatural strength nor did I say we can understand Scripture without the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. And your argument is pretty much more of the same.
Kelman,
Could you please explain what you feel the ministry of the Holy Spirit is for today (If you think there is any).?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/18/2009 4:47:02 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Thanks. Personally, I wouldn't go so far to say that people who hold to a strict cessationist position lack a relationship with God. I feel they are doing something we all can do: gerrymandering Scripture to fit an opinion derived from experience, rather than assessing experience in light of Scripture.
Hmmm.......I've known a number who certainly lack a relationship ..... but yes, anyone can mix and match verses. I certainly agree about experience taking second place to Scripture.....on the other hand, cessationists appear to lack experience and thereby conclude there is none to be had. Without a doubt the abuse is real but to conclude that everything is extra Biblical does not stand up in the light of Scripture. There was plenty of abuse when the books we call the NT were written, which is one reason we have the books to begin with.....instruction and truth to counter those who abused the gifts or just lacked knowledge about them.
Anyway...........
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/18/2009 5:42:31 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
After the NT canon was completed and the last prophet and apostle died, the revelatory gifts ceased.
So do think that the Holy Spirit still teaches today (either directly or through Scripture).
When a person recieves something from a passage of Scripture that they never noticed before is that the Holy Spirit as per;
(1Jn 2:27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
or in your opinion is it just man's intellengce and wisdom that does it.
Or how about the Spirit revealing all things that God has for us, as in;
(1Co 2:10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
(1Co 2:11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
(1Co 2:12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
(1Co 2:13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Or how about this ministry of the Holy Spirit;'
(Joh 14:16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
And what about this part of the Holy Spirit's ministry:
(Joh 16:8) And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(Joh 16:9) Of sin, because they believe not on me;
(Joh 16:10) Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
(Joh 16:11) Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
(Joh 16:12) I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
(Joh 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Am I to believe that you think the Holy Spirit does none of these?
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/19/2009 4:08:37 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The argument is specious because I never said we do not need supernatural strength nor did I say we can understand Scripture without the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. And your argument is pretty much more of the same.
Kelman,
Could you please explain what you feel the ministry of the Holy Spirit is for today (If you think there is any).?
Thanks
RC
Did you somehow miss post #44 in which I answered your question?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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