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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/19/2009 4:11:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
After the NT canon was completed and the last prophet and apostle died, the revelatory gifts ceased.
So do think that the Holy Spirit still teaches today (either directly or through Scripture). Had you read my reply to you in post #44 you'd have seen the answer is yes. Therefore, the rest of your post is superfluous.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/19/2009 8:24:29 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
After the NT canon was completed and the last prophet and apostle died, the revelatory gifts ceased.
So do think that the Holy Spirit still teaches today (either directly or through Scripture). Had you read my reply to you in post #44 you'd have seen the answer is yes. Therefore, the rest of your post is superfluous.
So if the Holy Spirit teaches (reveals the truth) of Scripture to someone (such as me when I am preparing a message) then when that revealation is gjiven; that is prophysying. Speaking forth the oracles of God.
I really do not know your definition of prophesy, but what is referred to in the New Testament is just that; speaking the oracles of God.
I do strongly disagree with the cessationist theory that sends the Holy Spirit on a vacation to Acapulco or somewhere and leaves the interpretation and professing of the truth of Scripture to the very fallible minds of mere men. Scripture plainly tells us;
(1Co 1:19) For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
(1Co 1:20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
(1Co 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
So as I go down to the Church and deliver the messages today, I pray that they are from the Holy Spirit and not my mind; For is they are of the Spiirit then lives will be changed, if they are from my mind, then confusion will reign.
quote:
From kelman post 44 After the NT canon was completed and the last prophet and apostle died, the revelatory gifts ceased.
I pray that you are wrong here, as my congregation will greatly suffer if the Holy Spirit is not revealing the truth of Scripture, and it is left up to me.
Be Blessed Kelman
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 4/19/2009 8:31:53 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/19/2009 9:21:37 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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quote:
I do strongly disagree with the cessationist theory that sends the Holy Spirit on a vacation to Acapulco or somewhere and leaves the interpretation and professing of the truth of Scripture to the very fallible minds of mere men. Scripture plainly tells us;
(1Co 1:19) For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
(1Co 1:20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
(1Co 1:21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Just so. Just so.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/19/2009 9:35:33 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
kelman, is there any difference between someone who does not believe in God and is not saved or someone who says they are saved yet does not believe what God says in His word?
I think not.
Well, I think that's an excellent question you might want to ask yourself.....but,you won't.
I see, so I ask the question...you do not answer, but tell me I should answer it. You have answered me. You just do not believe a large portion of NT Scripture.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/19/2009 9:44:34 AM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/20/2009 2:04:23 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
After the NT canon was completed and the last prophet and apostle died, the revelatory gifts ceased.
So do think that the Holy Spirit still teaches today (either directly or through Scripture). Had you read my reply to you in post #44 you'd have seen the answer is yes. Therefore, the rest of your post is superfluous.
So if the Holy Spirit teaches (reveals the truth) of Scripture to someone (such as me when I am preparing a message) then when that revealation is gjiven; that is prophysying. Speaking forth the oracles of God. If you are faithfully declaring the Word of God, you are "prophesying". Obviously not in the sense of making "predictions", though.
quote:
I really do not know your definition of prophesy, but what is referred to in the New Testament is just that; speaking the oracles of God. I absolutely agree with you. Even in the OT, the prophets were not always "predicting" most of the time they simply told the people what God revealed to them in a dream, vision or audible word. Today, of course, that cannot happen since God has completed the canon of Scripture. But since Pentecost, all believers have a "prophetic" ministry - to declare the Word of God.
quote:
I do strongly disagree with the cessationist theory that sends the Holy Spirit on a vacation to Acapulco or somewhere and leaves the interpretation and professing of the truth of Scripture to the very fallible minds of mere men. Scripture plainly tells us; LOL...no, the Holy Spirit hasn't skipped off to Acapulco. I've repeatedly said that it only through the ministry of the Holy Spirit that we come to truth. Although, unfortunately, many do preach from their "very fallible minds".
quote:
So as I go down to the Church and deliver the messages today, I pray that they are from the Holy Spirit and not my mind; For is they are of the Spiirit then lives will be changed, if they are from my mind, then confusion will reign. As we pray for wisdom, study and meditate while comparing scripture with scripture we are at least doing it God's way, the "harvest" is up to Him.
quote:
quote:
From kelman post 44 After the NT canon was completed and the last prophet and apostle died, the revelatory gifts ceased.
I pray that you are wrong here, as my congregation will greatly suffer if the Holy Spirit is not revealing the truth of Scripture, and it is left up to me.
I guess I'm not making myself clear. Of course, it is the Holy Spirit who reveals the truth from Scripture....He is not, though, giving you, or anyone else , additional extrabiblical revelation or "words".
In order to avoid confusion, perpaps the better word to use for what the Holy Spirit does concerning the truths of Scripture is "illuminate" our minds.
quote:
Be Blessed Kelman Thank you, RC.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/20/2009 9:48:47 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
If you are faithfully declaring the Word of God, you are "prophesying". Obviously not in the sense of making "predictions", though.(
We are in complete agreement here
quote:
I guess I'm not making myself clear. Of course, it is the Holy Spirit who reveals the truth from Scripture....He is not, though, giving you, or anyone else , additional extrabiblical revelation or "words".
Agreed There is nothing new, but the Holy Spirit does a lot of "Clarifying" of Scripture.
So it would seem that our supposed disagreement in more along the lines of semantics than of doctrine on the Monistry of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/20/2009 6:30:55 PM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
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kelman,
You have piqued my curiosity. You say that you agree with rcjames regarding the Holy Spirit giving guidance to presenting a message as being "prophesy".
So now I wonder what sort of prophecy you consider to be "adding to the word"?
Let's say I'm praying in church and the Holy Spirit lays in on my heart-a clear message-that a woman in the congregation has been diagnosed with cancer, and God wants me to offer a word of comfort to her. The church I'm in allows for a time of prophetic utterance, so I tell the pastor about what I believe the Holy Spirit has told me. I'm given the microphone and share, "The Lord has shown me that a woman here has just been diagnosed with cancer-it's in or around your stomach. He wants me to tell you to be secure that He is in control and that the cancer will not claim your life."
How is this adding to the Bible?
(True, first hand story by the way. I did in fact deliver that "word". I had never met the woman in question and she'd only told her family and close friends about the cancer. 12 years later she is still cancer free after being told she had only 2 to 3 years to live.)
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/20/2009 6:42:09 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
Let's say I'm praying in church and the Holy Spirit lays in on my heart-a clear message-that a woman in the congregation has been diagnosed with cancer, and God wants me to offer a word of comfort to her. The church I'm in allows for a time of prophetic utterance, so I tell the pastor about what I believe the Holy Spirit has told me. I'm given the microphone and share, "The Lord has shown me that a woman here has just been diagnosed with cancer-it's in or around your stomach. He wants me to tell you to be secure that He is in control and that the cancer will not claim your life."
If the Holy Spirit has told you to give a word of comfort to her; why announce it to the Church, why not just go to the woman and give her comfort.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/20/2009 6:50:11 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2104
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
If the Holy Spirit has told you to give a word of comfort to her; why announce it to the Church, why not just go to the woman and give her comfort.
Thanks
RC
That was my question.
In that situation, to me it seems that what was important was for the woman's faith to be strengthened and for her to be comforted... and to be reassured that God's comfort would continue to be present.
c_h_b:
Was God wanting to build up the faith of the congregation as well? (I ask seriously... not in jest or sarcasm.)
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RE: No disrespect taken - 4/20/2009 9:06:50 PM
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AbsolutelyNumb
Posts: 15
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peloton
Really the current crop of teleprophets have given the calling a bad name by selling prophetic touches, words, and other stuff to those with the cash, checks, and credit cards.
There are true prophets out there. They preach and prophesy without fear or favor to man and are therefore not very prosperous. I still feel that there are real prophets and persons of God who still operate in the gifts. The difference is who your promoter is. If God is your promoter, you and your giftings will be revealed in His time. We call the others "shooting stars." Big and bright until they burn out over the horizon.
Remember this as well...there has to be an original for there to be a counterfeit.
Couldn't have said it any better myself! And I assure you there are true prophets out here. If you go to www.familyradio.com and www.ebiblefellowship.com, you will see and hear people who are truly blessed by the LORD with the gift of prophesy.
May the LORD richly bless you...
_____________________________
"But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief...Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."
1 Thessalonians 5:4,6
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/21/2009 1:19:24 AM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I hadn't met the woman and though I prayed to get some sort of indicator of who she was, I didn't. Maybe it was my lack of faith or more likely, some fear that I would walk up to the wrong person and make a fool of myself. Also, our church had a policy that any sort of prophetic word was to be approved by the pastor. Part of this was to avoid such situations as I feared.
You see, I was just the "delivery boy". How it was to be delivered wasn't up to me, was it?
Yes, it could also have been to encourage the entire congregation. I know one result: some people who had been giving some pretty vague, "generic" "words from the Lord" seemed to refrain from doing so for a while.
The Biblical model as laid forth in 1 Corinthians actually calls for (or at least allows) such words to be given before the entire congregation. In part to boost faith. In part to prove that God is at work. In part because by sharing a word with the entire "family" people relationships can be strengthened.
Was this woman embarrassed by what happened? Not in the least. It gave her tremendous hope to find that God cared enough about her condition to tell her and 1800 other people He was going to heal her.
I have had times where a revelation I've received was meant to be told only to the person involved. Even then, for the sake of accountability, I did so with a witness, such as a pastor or elder, to ensure that it wasn't taken the wrong way (some people do use so called prophetic gifts to manipulate others). I have had times when knew exactly which visitor a word was for and upon starting to deliver it, have told the person things that I couldn't possibly have known without divine guidance. One woman was on the verge of turning from Christ before I and some others "read her mail" and showed her first hand that not only was God real, but that He had people willing to stand with her and help her through a difficult time.
At all times, I've been involved in this sort of ministry with groups that are strong on accountability. Avoid using terms like "Thus saith the Lord" or even "God says" (unless you are truly recognized as having that level of anointing.) Use phrases such as "What I sense in the Spirit" or "What I feel the Holy Spirit has laid on my heart." Do all you can to make it clear that you are fallible and the word you are giving is therefore imperfect and under no circumstances to be equated with Scripture. Never deliver a word without at least 1 witness. Never accept a word without praying about it's meaning and checking it against Scripture. Never assume that a predictive word is guaranteed to come to pass.They are all conditional: a nudge into proper action, rather than a set-in-stone declaration of what will come to pass.
I've since found that much of what is going on in the "Prophetic Movement" has strayed into commercialism and politics/power-mongering among some of the leaders, and faddishness among many congregations. (The "Apostolic Movement is even worse IMO). So I'm wary any time someone says "read this great word from the Lord." Often they strike me as someone simply vocalizing what the Holy Spirit has already been doing among those with ears to hear, rather than the "lead the way" quality that truly prophetic teaching, praying or speaking displays.
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: No disrespect taken - 4/21/2009 5:07:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
kelman,
You have piqued my curiosity. You say that you agree with rcjames regarding the Holy Spirit giving guidance to presenting a message as being "prophesy". Yes, prophecy but only in the sense that he is declaring, preaching, teaching the Word of God found in the closed canon of Scripture. Since Pentecost every believer is qualified and mandated to bring the Gospel. In the OT, this mandate was limited to the prophets only.
quote:
So now I wonder what sort of prophecy you consider to be "adding to the word"? Anything which claims to be from God by way of tongues, dreams, visions, audible word, etc., would be conveying the idea of additional divine revelation. According to God, the Bible contains all that is necessary to equip us "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
quote:
Let's say I'm praying in church and the Holy Spirit lays in on my heart-a clear message-that a woman in the congregation has been diagnosed with cancer, and God wants me to offer a word of comfort to her. The church I'm in allows for a time of prophetic utterance, so I tell the pastor about what I believe the Holy Spirit has told me. I'm given the microphone and share, "The Lord has shown me that a woman here has just been diagnosed with cancer-it's in or around your stomach. He wants me to tell you to be secure that He is in control and that the cancer will not claim your life."
How is this adding to the Bible? Because you have made the claim that the message was from God presumably it was an inspired word from God as all His “words” are. Prophecy in Scripture was the infallible, inspired word God gave to certain people. If you are not prepared to say that your messages are infallible inspired words from God then they are not the true biblical prophesying we find in Scripture which carries with it divine authority.
quote:
(True, first hand story by the way. I did in fact deliver that "word". I had never met the woman in question and she'd only told her family and close friends about the cancer. 12 years later she is still cancer free after being told she had only 2 to 3 years to live.)
God is the giver of life and is gracious and heals many people even those who have no interest whatsoever in Him. It’s not unheard of that people are told they have X amount of years to live yet survive long past that time.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: No disrespect taken - 4/21/2009 10:47:45 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
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Praise God for the good gift of His precious Holy Spirit who works today as He did when the New Testament was written. May God's grace shine upon those who obey Him and follow Him and who have a heart that longs for Him. May the love of God be shed abroad in our hearts.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/21/2009 11:17:26 AM
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poetessfree
Posts: 568
Joined: 12/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
No, the Lord has not done away with the five fold ministries. Neither has He done away with miracles or anything else that Jesus did when he walked this earth.
Will you now offer your evidence for the dead being raised to life and the restoration of withered limbs?
I can offer evidence, her name is Mother Boyd and her son was declared dead by the doctors. He was lying on the table with the sheet covered over him having been declared dead, the line flat. But Mother Boyd, a powerfully faithful woman of God, prayed and said one word, Jesus and her son came back to life. God had promised her while she was states away that HE would give her back her son. She still had the death certificate that the doctors had given her as proof of God's working power. The extent of his injuries: stabbed all the way through his lungs and out through the front of his diaphram, was enough to kill any man but God, Who performs miracles in this day and age, did a miracle on him. Doctors kept him for a week because they couldn't believe the healings that were taken place in his body until they finally released him. Yes God can and still does works miracles. If one does not believe in them, how in this world can they expect to see them? For their minds are made up, smh. For even with evidence they will still not believe.
_____________________________
The Sum of us is greater than all of our parts
Maya Angelou
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 4/22/2009 3:33:41 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: poetessfree
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
No, the Lord has not done away with the five fold ministries. Neither has He done away with miracles or anything else that Jesus did when he walked this earth.
Will you now offer your evidence for the dead being raised to life and the restoration of withered limbs?
I can offer evidence, her name is Mother Boyd and her son was declared dead by the doctors. He was lying on the table with the sheet covered over him having been declared dead, the line flat. But Mother Boyd, a powerfully faithful woman of God, prayed and said one word, Jesus and her son came back to life. God had promised her while she was states away that HE would give her back her son. She still had the death certificate that the doctors had given her as proof of God's working power. The extent of his injuries: stabbed all the way through his lungs and out through the front of his diaphram, was enough to kill any man but God, Who performs miracles in this day and age, did a miracle on him. Doctors kept him for a week because they couldn't believe the healings that were taken place in his body until they finally released him. Yes God can and still does works miracles. If one does not believe in them, how in this world can they expect to see them? For their minds are made up, smh. For even with evidence they will still not believe.
It's not believable because it is not evidence. These "miracles" are always unable to produce widely convincing evidence. There is no similarities to the "raisings" in Scripture. Does it sometime happen that people have, so called, come back from the dead?....yes. Their hearts stopped beating or lungs stopped breathing and they're pronounced dead....and lo and behold they revive! A "supernatural" miracle?....no, just a facet of our physical makeup.
There is no one today who is perfoming the miracles that Christ and the Apostles did. There is no one dead and buried for four days who comes back to life - no one.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: No disrespect taken - 4/22/2009 9:08:57 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Anything which claims to be from God by way of tongues, dreams, visions, audible word, etc., would be conveying the idea of additional divine revelation.
I would have to diverge a bit from this statement. If the Holy Spirit uses tongues, dreams, visions, audible words etc. to speak to man; it does not necessarily mean additional divine revelation, but could and does came as emphasis or clarification of Scritprure.
Though I will agree that anyone who claims to have heard from God something that is contrare to Scripture, or is not supported by Scripture did not hear from God.
It is the same when reading Scripture. We may have read a passage a hundred times, but on the hundred and first time the Holy Spirit teaches us something from that passage that we never had gleaned before. That, in my estimation, is the Holy Spirit teaching us, and not man's intelluct or wisdom.
Joel spoke this, and Paul quoted it, and I am not going to deny the working of the Holy Spirit today;
(Joe 2:28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
(Joe 2:29) And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Again, I will say that any "Revelation" that contredicts or does not line up with Scripture" is not from the Holy Spirit.
But the Holy Spirit still teaches, guides, leads, directs, convicts, gives dreams, visions etc.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: No disrespect taken - 4/23/2009 2:25:24 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Anything which claims to be from God by way of tongues, dreams, visions, audible word, etc., would be conveying the idea of additional divine revelation.
I would have to diverge a bit from this statement. If the Holy Spirit uses tongues, dreams, visions, audible words etc. to speak to man; it does not necessarily mean additional divine revelation, but could and does came as emphasis or clarification of Scritprure. As you know, God often repeats Himself in Scripture so it makes no difference that what is "heard" is something from Scripture. Take for instance, the case of Ellen G. White. She too claimed to have the "spirit of prophecy" and that her messages were direct from God for the guidance and instruction of the church. She had a "vision" concerning the 4th commandment "keep the Sabbath"...the Saturday Sabbath. Did she add to the Bible or simply repeat and put a special emphasis on what God had previously written? Did she err and drag many along in her errors?...of course, she did.
Any revelation that purports to be from God, if it actually were, would be an addition to the Bible. And God would never violate His Word by doing so.
quote:
Though I will agree that anyone who claims to have heard from God something that is contrare to Scripture, or is not supported by Scripture did not hear from God. As I explained above anything purporting to be from God would qualify as adding to Scripture whether or not it is already written in the Bible.
quote:
It is the same when reading Scripture. We may have read a passage a hundred times, but on the hundred and first time the Holy Spirit teaches us something from that passage that we never had gleaned before. No, I totally disagree, it is not the same - at all. When the Holy Spirit enlightens us there is no additonal revelation from God. God is simply being gracious by giving us an understanding of what He has previously written.
You know, one thing that I've always found amazing which reflects how everything is done at God's own good pleasure. Remember when Paul said "a mystery has been revealed to me"? This in reference to the Gentiles also becoming saved. What mystery? All throughout the OT it states precisely that, yet, Paul never knew even though he was a great student of the OT. That's the work of the Holy Spirit illuminating God's Word for us....not the visions, tongues, dreams, etc., of today.
quote:
That, in my estimation, is the Holy Spirit teaching us, and not man's intelluct or wisdom. Exactly, even a man of Paul's wisdom couldn't, without the Holy Spirit, come to a relatively simple conclusion repeated over and over in the OT....it just didn't "register".
quote:
Joel spoke this, and Paul quoted it, and I am not going to deny the working of the Holy Spirit today; Good, I'm glad you don't and neither do I. Though, I will never presume that God will violate His own Word - not to add to the Bible.
quote:
(Joe 2:28) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: God did pour out His Spirit on all believers at Pentecost which was the fulfillment of Joel 2:28 and Isaiah 43:3; 32:14-18. In fact, this was also the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy that He would baptize with the Spirit. These OT prophesies are envisioning a time when God, the Holy Spirit, would have a relationship to believers decidedly different from the of OT days.
We "prohesy" as we preach from the completed canon of Scripture. The last book of the Bible abrogates "visions and dreams" just as Jesus' additional commands abrogated divorce which was permitted up until Chirst gave the new commandment.
quote:
Again, I will say that any "Revelation" that contredicts or does not line up with Scripture" is not from the Holy Spirit.
But the Holy Spirit still teaches, guides, leads, directs, convicts, gives dreams, visions etc.
Yes, God still teaches, etc.; but no, God will give no further "revelation" regardless of whether it agrees with what has already been written. And God is to be praised that He has revealed to us that He will not add to His Word. He protects us, if we heed Him, from the confusion and error which surrounds most of the church today.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: No disrespect taken - 4/23/2009 10:07:16 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
But the Holy Spirit still teaches, guides, leads, directs, convicts, gives dreams, visions etc.
Yes, God still teaches, etc.; but no, God will give no further "revelation" regardless of whether it agrees with what has already been written. And God is to be praised that He has revealed to us that He will not add to His Word. He protects us, if we heed Him, from the confusion and error which surrounds most of the church today.
Kelman, I do bleieve we agree much more than we disagree on this.
I will affirm that the Holy Spirit will not add to what we have in Scripture, but without the Holy Spirit teaching and illuminating those Scriptures to us, bringing the Word alive as it were; Scripture would just simply be a book of words.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 4/24/2009 9:32:19 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: No disrespect taken - 4/24/2009 2:36:50 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
But the Holy Spirit still teaches, guides, leads, directs, convicts, gives dreams, visions etc.
Yes, God still teaches, etc.; but no, God will give no further "revelation" regardless of whether it agrees with what has already been written. And God is to be praised that He has revealed to us that He will not add to His Word. He protects us, if we heed Him, from the confusion and error which surrounds most of the church today.
Kelman, I do bleieve we agree much more than we disagree on this.
I will affirm that the Holy Spirit will not add to what we have in Scripture, but without the Holy Spirit teaching and immuminating those Scriptures to us, bringing the Word alive as it were; Scripture would just simply be a book of words.
Thanks
RC
I'm glad we have this area of agreement. You're right, how many hear the Word but it makes no impact? And yet on others?....their lives are changed. It is only the Holy Spirit as He applies the Word to the hearts of the hearers that makes the difference between the two.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/1/2009 3:31:42 AM
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sympathy07
Posts: 40
Joined: 4/29/2009
Status: offline
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Good points here, God had make this beautiful world with this gift but man doing crimes with this gift.
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Sympathy Words
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RE: No disrespect taken - 5/7/2009 10:52:45 AM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Yes, prophecy but only in the sense that he is declaring, preaching, teaching the Word of God found in the closed canon of Scripture. Since Pentecost every believer is qualified and mandated to bring the Gospel. In the OT, this mandate was limited to the prophets only.
Unfortunately, this is NOT the Biblical definition of prophecy. You will not find a rightly interpreted verse that says that prophecy consists exclusively of "declaring, preaching, teaching the Word of God found in the closed canon of Scripture." What you are holding to as "sound doctrine" is actually the result not of exegesis, but the opposite. That is, taking a foregone conclusion (opinion) and searching for ways to support it with Scripture.
You've placed yourself on a carousel of poorly interpreted, out of context Scriptural support. It comes from the habit of taking lists or statements in the Bible that are of limited, inclusive application and assuming they are also exclusive in application. IE: "All Scripture" is inspired, etc. doesn't mean that only Scripture is inspired.
quote:
If you are not prepared to say that your messages are infallible inspired words from God then they are not the true biblical prophesying we find in Scripture which carries with it divine authority.
I never said that any message I gave or might give are infallible or equal in authority to the Bible. If you think I did or do, then you are making an inference from the false position of projecting your inferences onto my actions.
Again there is absolutely no sound Scriptural support for this definition of the Gift of Prophesy. Your "logic" would imply that every prophesy ever spoken in the churches to which Paul wrote letters mentioning prophecy must also be part of the canon of Scripture. Since they obviously aren't, your argument falls apart. The example we find mentioned in 1 Corinthians is that the Gift of Prophesy operates on a more "immediate" basis than "Canonical prophesy". That is, it's given within the congregation for that congregation or individuals. Hence, there was no need to include it specifically in the grafe of the Bible. This exclusion doesn't mean it didn't occur.
quote:
God is the giver of life and is gracious and heals many people even those who have no interest whatsoever in Him. It’s not unheard of that people are told they have X amount of years to live yet survive long past that time.
I don't see that your response has anything to do with the fact that I shared one of a great many times that I received a revelation from the Holy Spirit which turned out to be true, accurate and valid.
You see, you embrace some common mistakes that fuel cessationist thinking.
1. God only communicates through the Bible. Therefore, any divinely inspired communication must be some variation on what the Bible already says (Point of failure: I'm about to get in my car to go to work. A friend from church calls me and says "I was just praying about you and God told me to call you and tell you to take a different route to work today". I do, and avoid an a pile up that would have included me. Actual event. How do you dismiss this as being "unscriptural"?)
2. Related to the first, that prophecy is specifically and exclusively predictive in nature. It wasn't the case in the Bible. This contenion can't even be supported linguistically, as both the Hebrew and Greek words commonly translated as prophesy or prophecy relate to forthtelling not foretelling.
3. Inspired word means logos, or something exclusive to the canon of Scripture. When the NT writers mention revelatory gifts, they use a different word, rhema or profetuo than when they refer to Scripture logos or grafe. Acts 2:18, quoting Joel "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..." (profetuo). 2 Ti. 3:16, "All Scripture (grafe) is inspired..."
Since the Bible makes a clear distinction between Scripture and "temporal" revelation, it's difficult to go beyond the teaching of Scripture as cessationists have done.
So why do they do it? IMO: Fear. Fear that someone will in fact declare that his/her prophesy is adding to the Holy Bible. So the idea you have embraced, kelman, is pretty much a matter of throwing the baby out with the bath water. The attempt to enforce accountability and assure validity of the revelatory gifts became disavowing their validity at all. In my experience (limited though it may be compared to some) most of the time when someone says "God doesn't do that any more" it's not because there is Scriptural support for the statement. In fact, there is seldom practical support for it. Usually it's because the person saying so has been taught that and never questioned the teaching.
The source of the teaching is often from people who never experienced the it. Or they saw it misused or misrepresented and so dismissed it out of hand because they judged all according to the erroneous few. Also, in some cases it's simply arrogance: the assumption that God must reveal everything He ever has to say to anyone in history to them, and since all they have that they accept is the Bible, then that is all that God has said or ever will say to anyone.
What a remote and unapproachable God that is!
What to make of the reality that millions of people all over the world experience the Relevatory Gifts on a regular basis, but a few still maintain that it isn't happening? What is usually done is to declare those millions to be deceived or worse, false Christians. That's a dangerous thing to do, especially when there is far more Scriptural support for them than against them.
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: No disrespect taken - 5/7/2009 8:28:09 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2731
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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Kelman,
I know you are a busy, busy poster, but I would like to ask a question. Let me try and find the right words for it:
I agree that nothing can be added to Scripture, but I think we may not agree on what defines such a thing.
Let me use a cliche-hollywood type of an example: God tells me, in one way or another, that "Frank" is going to make a mess of things at a party this weekend. I give Frank said warning "Frank, God told me if you go to this party, you will <get drunk, get a girl pregnant, general sin and falling away from God, etc>. Turn from your sin and find God."
Now, if this story actually happened (however unrealistic the example may be), it would be a prophetic word from God.
But I would not consider it to be "adding" to the Bible. The message does not change anything in Scripture, it does not offer a new revelation of God's nature, character, or behavior. It does not introduce a new doctrine foreign to the rest of the God's Word. It does not void any other part of Scripture. And it does not seem like anything that would be equated to being on the same level of Scripture, because it is not a matter of God revealing Himself to mankind, as is the case and purpose of Scripture.
If the message was instead something like, "Frank, God has told me He doesn't mind if you get drunk tonight," now, I have introduced something that is in contradiction to the rest of God's Word, and thus is clearly a false prophesy.
Or, "Frank, God told me that even He sometimes gets sleepy." In this case (it was all I could think up at the time), it does not necessarily contradict anything in Scripture, but it is an addition to Scripture because it is a message (a false one at that) about some unrevealed characteristic or nature quality of God.
I hope this made sense. I was struggling with a way to process it into words. What are your thoughts on the way I would define "adding to Scripture?"
_____________________________
rawr.ben
Facebook
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RE: No disrespect taken - 5/8/2009 12:33:29 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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Example;
If the Holy Spirit speaks through someone and says the He is the agent of the Trinty that ministers to us, consoles us, comforts, leads us, and guides us; that is not revelation, but clarification. It is what is written in John 14,15 and 16, but that through lack of faith in the Word, and man's traditions that truth has been lost; then Bod re-emphasizes the truth of Scripture. and bringing to our rememberance all things that Christ has said.
That truth may seem like "New Revelation" to many who have bought into the lies of tradition; but it is just plain simple Scripture.
So I say praise God for the Ministry of the Holy Spirit to keep us from being condemned;
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(Rom 8:3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(Rom 8:4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
(Rom 8:6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
(Rom 8:7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(Rom 8:8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(Rom 8:9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
(Rom 8:11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Now if someone believes that the Holy Soirit told them that to be a Child of God that one must be Baptized with a copper coin in their mouth; the folks that claim that are just weird.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: No disrespect taken - 5/9/2009 5:57:03 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
quote:
Yes, prophecy but only in the sense that he is declaring, preaching, teaching the Word of God found in the closed canon of Scripture. Since Pentecost every believer is qualified and mandated to bring the Gospel. In the OT, this mandate was limited to the prophets only.
Unfortunately, this is NOT the Biblical definition of prophecy. You will not find a rightly interpreted verse that says that prophecy consists exclusively of "declaring, preaching, teaching the Word of God found in the closed canon of Scripture." To be sure, your definition is not found in Scripture since God has given no further inspired or infallible revelation from God. There remains, of course, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, illumination of God's revelation ”which was once delivered unto the saints”.
Of course, there is a difference between the OT and the NT as it concerns who is called to prophesy. At Pentecost God poured out His Spirit upon all believers. All believers are filled with the Holy Spirit which qualifies them to bring the words of God.
quote:
What you are holding to as "sound doctrine" is actually the result not of exegesis, but the opposite. That is, taking a foregone conclusion (opinion) and searching for ways to support it with Scripture. I employ what is found in Scripture - not presuppostions. We get our understanding from ALL of Scripture not just the parts that uphold our presuppositions or what someone has said is the truth.
quote:
You've placed yourself on a carousel of poorly interpreted, out of context Scriptural support. No, that is the precise way of studying Scripture - by comparing spritual with spiritual - scripture with scripture....not by our "feelings" or by what we’d like it to mean.
quote:
IE: "All Scripture" is inspired, etc. doesn't mean that only Scripture is inspired. Actually what it does, in fact, mean is that God had said only of Scripture that it is inspired. If you wish to hold something else inspired or infallible, you are simply engaging in personal opinion which, of course, amounts to nothing but a ride on that carousel of yours. "It is not so much a matter of the denial of the truth, but rather such an addition to the truth that eventually it becomes a departure from it."
quote:
quote:
If you are not prepared to say that your messages are infallible inspired words from God then they are not the true biblical prophesying we find in Scripture which carries with it divine authority.
I never said that any message I gave or might give are infallible or equal in authority to the Bible. You just now said above that NOT only Scripture is inspired…so what else is if not your “messages” from God which is what this discussion is about? Or do you mean your “messages” are inspired but not infallible …please be a mite more specific…only inspired but not infallible? Although, how God’s words can be inspired but not infallible would be a true mystery.
quote:
If you think I did or do, then you are making an inference from the false position of projecting your inferences onto my actions. Quite a mouthful but unfortunately you contradict what you’ve just said above. Still, if you insist your "mesage" is from God...is He lying?...does God give false "messages"? If a "message" was truly from God it would be inspired and infallible and carry the full weight of divine authority. You can deny this all you please but it is simply a fact.
We can thank God that He doesn't indulge in this type of message giving. Otherwise, it would behoove us to hear every "word" He has given, wherever He is giving it. No, graciously He has written all His revelation in a Book so that we may be made "perfect" "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
quote:
Again there is absolutely no sound Scriptural support for this definition of the Gift of Prophesy. Your "logic" would imply that every prophesy ever spoken in the churches to which Paul wrote letters mentioning prophecy must also be part of the canon of Scripture. Since they obviously aren't, your argument falls apart. Not at all. Were the words of the Lord Jesus Christ inspired?...not all of His words are included in the canon. So, it's not my argument falling apart here.
quote:
The example we find mentioned in 1 Corinthians is that the Gift of Prophesy operates on a more "immediate" basis than "Canonical prophesy". That is, it's given within the congregation for that congregation or individuals. Hence, there was no need to include it specifically in the grafe of the Bible. This exclusion doesn't mean it didn't occur. Did I say it didn't occur?...no, I did not. But, it "occurred" before God's revelation was complete and before God stopped giving messages in dreams, visions, etc.
quote:
quote:
God is the giver of life and is gracious and heals many people even those who have no interest whatsoever in Him. It’s not unheard of that people are told they have X amount of years to live yet survive long past that time.
I don't see that your response has anything to do with the fact that I shared one of a great many times that I received a revelation from the Holy Spirit which turned out to be true, accurate and valid. You have no evidence that your "feeling" was from the Holy Spirit. That is simply your surmise due to a presupposition. It is not unheard of that people's "feelings" occasionally might actually come to pass. What our minds "see" can often materialize.
quote:
You see, you embrace some common mistakes that fuel cessationist thinking.
God only communicates through the Bible. Therefore, any divinely inspired communication must be some variation on what the Bible already says… As can clearly be seen here – you are working from your presuppositions – not from Scripture.
quote:
(Point of failure: I'm about to get in my car to go to work. A friend from church calls me and says "I was just praying about you and God told me to call you and tell you to take a different route to work today". I do, and avoid an a pile up that would have included me. Actual event. How do you dismiss this as being "unscriptural"?) Many an atheist has had the same "feeling" or premonition....doesn't mean it's from God. If you notice you are now saying that the "communication" is divinely inspired. Weren’t you just denying that above?....yep, you were. So, not only do you come to Scripture with your presuppostions but then proceed to contradict your own presuppostion.
quote:
2. Related to the first, that prophecy is specifically and exclusively predictive in nature. It wasn't the case in the Bible. This contenion can't even be supported linguistically, as both the Hebrew and Greek words commonly translated as prophesy or prophecy relate to forthtelling not foretelling. I never said it was...what have you been reading? In fact, I'm making the precise opposite argument....that the prophet simply declares the words God gave him...just as now all those who declare Scripture are, in that sense, a prophet. The word "prophecy" is used in Scripture to mean both the revealing of future events and "forthtelling".
quote:
3. Inspired word means logos, or something exclusive to the canon of Scripture. When the NT writers mention revelatory gifts, they use a different word, rhema or profetuo than when they refer to Scripture logos or grafe. Acts 2:18, quoting Joel "Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..." (profetuo). 2 Ti. 3:16, "All Scripture (grafe) is inspired..." The word rhema is also used to mean that which comes from God "every word (rhema) that proceedth from the mouth of God" Mat 4:4. As I said above, the word prophesy in use to mean both the "foretelling" and "forthtelling".
quote:
Since the Bible makes a clear distinction between Scripture and "temporal" revelation, it's difficult to go beyond the teaching of Scripture as cessationists have done. No. I don't see this "clear" distinction that you do since both rhema and prophesy are used to declare the inspired words of God.
quote:
So why do they do it? IMO: Fear. Fear that someone will in fact declare that his/her prophesy is adding to the Holy Bible. So the idea you have embraced, kelman, is pretty much a matter of throwing the baby out with the bath water. That makes no sense...why do who do what? If you mean me, I have no fear someone "will in fact declare that his/her prophesy is adding to the Holy Bible" since I would never presume to say that God gave me a personal message. I know this, would, in fact, be adding to His ”which was once delivered to the saints” revelation, something He would never do. No, I haven't thrown out the baby, but you have added a bunch of babies to your bathwater....babies God has not put there.
quote:
The attempt to enforce accountability and assure validity of the revelatory gifts became disavowing their validity at all. In my experience (limited though it may be compared to some) most of the time when someone says "God doesn't do that any more" it's not because there is Scriptural support for the statement. In fact, there is seldom practical support for it. Usually it's because the person saying so has been taught that and never questioned the teaching. Nope, that person has simply read the entire Book and recognizes and believes when God says He will no longer make additions to His revelation.
quote:
The source of the teaching is often from people who never experienced the it. Or they saw it misused or misrepresented and so dismissed it out of hand because they judged all according to the erroneous few. Actually, it is a judgment derived only from the Bible....not one based on subjective feelings.
quote:
Also, in some cases it's simply arrogance: the assumption that God must reveal everything He ever has to say to anyone in history to them, and since all they have that they accept is the Bible, then that is all that God has said or ever will say to anyone. Boy, do you take a massive leap and land painfully on some massively erroneous conclusions! I've never said or even implied that "God must reveal everything...". As for “arrogance”, I’m not the one claiming God is giving me personal messages.
quote:
What a remote and unapproachable God that is! What's remote about a God who wrote His complete revelation over a period of 1,600 years so that man might have intimate knowledge of Him, a God who sent His Son to die for those who would be saved, a God who would dwell within His children, a God who will someday take His children home, a God who desires the prayers of His people, a God who guides the steps of His children, a God who upholds and keeps believers?.....hardly, some "unapproachable" God.
quote:
What to make of the reality that millions of people all over the world experience the Relevatory Gifts on a regular basis, but a few still maintain that it isn't happening? What is usually done is to declare those millions to be deceived or worse, false Christians. That's a dangerous thing to do, especially when there is far more Scriptural support for them than against them. I make no judgment on people's Christianity. There's all ready enough of that going on in some circles here. But I do make a judgment on beliefs based on what the Bible says...to do otherwise is what is "dangerous".
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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