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RE: No disrespect taken - 5/9/2009 6:09:04 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rawr.ben
Kelman,
I know you are a busy, busy poster, but I would like to ask a question. Let me try and find the right words for it:
I agree that nothing can be added to Scripture, but I think we may not agree on what defines such a thing.
Let me use a cliche-hollywood type of an example: God tells me, in one way or another, that "Frank" is going to make a mess of things at a party this weekend. I give Frank said warning "Frank, God told me if you go to this party, you will <get drunk, get a girl pregnant, general sin and falling away from God, etc>. Turn from your sin and find God."
Now, if this story actually happened (however unrealistic the example may be), it would be a prophetic word from God. The problem with believing this is an actual message from God is that you are probably well aware from past experience that Frank is a jerk and that the particular outcome you describe would not be completely unexpected. Hence, these thoughts can reasonably be seen to be a result of your subconscious awareness of Frank’s not untypically bad behavior. We need not assume it is a personal message given to you by God.
quote:
But I would not consider it to be "adding" to the Bible. The message does not change anything in Scripture, it does not offer a new revelation of God's nature, character, or behavior. It does not introduce a new doctrine foreign to the rest of the God's Word. It does not void any other part of Scripture. And it does not seem like anything that would be equated to being on the same level of Scripture, because it is not a matter of God revealing Himself to mankind, as is the case and purpose of Scripture. Much of Scripture cannot be described as containing the above information where it neither changes anything, offers new revelation of God’s nature or character, etc. We have long explanations of battles, we have a book that doesn’t once even mention “God”. We see that God often reiterates and there definitely is some repeating of information.
For instance we see in John 6 God says four times ”I will raise him up the last day”. It seems unnecessary to repeat this four times but would we dare reduce it down to three times? We would be be removing from the Word of God. In the same way, if God repeated this phrase, to give it to us a fifth time, then that would be an addition to the Word of God.
If it was truly a word from God, then it must of necessity be infallible/inspired and hold the weight of divine authority, therefore, it is adding to what the only thing God speaks of as being inspired - Scripture. God makes that declaration of inspiration only of Scripture. There's much in Scripture that "does not change anything". How many times does God repeat the same teaching - over and over in some cases. So, even if the “message" is exactly the words of Scripture, it would be adding to the faith “once delivered”.
quote:
If the message was instead something like, "Frank, God has told me He doesn't mind if you get drunk tonight," now, I have introduced something that is in contradiction to the rest of God's Word, and thus is clearly a false prophesy.
Or, "Frank, God told me that even He sometimes gets sleepy." In this case (it was all I could think up at the time), it does not necessarily contradict anything in Scripture, but it is an addition to Scripture because it is a message (a false one at that) about some unrevealed characteristic or nature quality of God. I really don't think we can see adding to Scripture in so narrow a manner. Afterall, if it is an addition - it is an addition. Now, even when something blatantly contradicts Scripture, we know many actually will believe it. But, thankfully, God has not left us in the position of having to decide whether this one or that one has gotten a message from Him. We can know immediately it is not true if someone says he has gotten a personal message, dream or vision from God. It is notable and should be worrisome that references to “signs and wonders” in the endtime church are satanically related – Mat 24:24.
quote:
I hope this made sense. I was struggling with a way to process it into words. What are your thoughts on the way I would define "adding to Scripture?" Perfect sense and your analogies were good. As we read Scripture we never see a time when a "word" from God was without divine authority. There is no one today who can make such claims, make them truthfully, that is. I think it's serious business because God is teaching in Rev 22:18 that if we look for divine truth from sources other than the Bible, it indicates that we are still subject to the plagues therein.
Let me hasten to add that I’m not saying God doesn’t reveal Himself to man today…He certainly does through creation, through our consciences and most importantly through the Bible as the Holy Spirit illiminates it for us. But, He is not imparting “new” revelation. God has given us everything we need as it pertains to salvation and the perfection of the believer.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/9/2009 11:21:49 AM
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rcudawg
Posts: 207
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Southeastern Nebraska.
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Kelman,
For thousands of years, because His Word had not been written down, His Sprit inspired many different people to write about God and His expectations. During this time, the Holy Spirit only got intvolved in the lives of a few people. People like Saul, the first king of Israel, David, all of the prophets, Abraham, etc., all experienced God in a person way. It was in a way that was unique to them, but it was in a personal way.
This continued into the 'New Testament" times. Not only did God continue to inspire people to write about Jesus and all that He had done, but God's Spirit continued to protect His Word and enable the various manusripts to be preserved. By the time that Paul's letters, Hebrews and Revelation were being written, God was 'wrapping thing up' as far as insipiring the greatest book of all times, the Holy Bible.
However, Jesus Himselfe said that He was going to give us the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, to comfort us, guide, inspire us, etc. Because our God is on who is very, very interested in how we live our lives, both big and small things, part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to help us to bring our lives into alaingment with God's will for us. Think of it... God gave Moses the Ten Commandments over 4,000 years ago. Yet, the call was repeatedly to 'circumcise your hearts.' If there's no attitude change, then there will be no change in actions.
The fist thing that happens when a Christian is born again is that the Holy Spirit enters their lives as a seal. That is, it's God's pledge of Himself that He will follow through with everything that He has promised concerning adopting them as His child and promise for eternal life. But, that's not the only thing that the Holy Spirit does. It also calls to mind things we have learned about God/Jesus at appropriate times so that we can apply them to the current situation. For example, have you never been in a discussion with someone about something that you were not familiar with and then God brought certain facts to your mind that were 'exactly what needed to be said?" Or, been ministering to someone who was in pain and you had no idea what to say. But, then, you felt the 'right words' come to your mind. Again, that was the Holy Spirit 'speaking to you.'
I have many experiences with God speaking to me. For example, while I was in Iraq in 2006-2007. My wife and I were just friends from the Crosswalk forum at that time. Sharon felt God laying on her heart to correspond with me regularily, to encourage me, and be there for me. And, this was when she still had a lot of issues with men and having a serious relationship a man. But, even though this went against the grain with how she felt about relationships (and she still resisted at times), she did trust God with it. In November, she was asking me questions about issues that her older sister, who was adopted, might face. This is because I'm adopted and have already met my biological family and her sister was in the process of finding out if her biological family wanted to have contact with her.
Our conversation went on for hours. Again, remember, at this stage in her life, she was still not very trusting of men. But, by the end of the conversation, after a lot of personal things being talked about, we were both starting to get the impression that God wanted us to 'become more than just friends.' It was a few weeks later, after lots of prayer about it, that we decided to start a long distance dating relationship. I, for one, was not wanting a long distance relationship because of how my first marriage had ended up.
Long story short, we both recoinized God directly working in our lives, drawing us together. Yes, we had friction at times. And, we have our disagreements. But, over a period of a year and a half to two years, we obeyed God and got married. And, God is still very, very active in our lives. He is opening doors of possiblity with us in the Methodist church that we are members of, He blessed us with a great starter home, enabled us to get our car paid off, etc. And, time and again, we feel Him nudge us in one direction or another. It's something that we've learned how to listen to, and to discern between God speaking to us, just our human spirit talking, and some sort of demonic spirit talking. Part of it is getting confirmation from other godly people that we trust. Part of it is lifting up the 'nudge' that we feel in pray and asking for confirmation. It just depends.
Learning to live by the Holy Spriit's guidance is both scary and awesome at the same time. In developing a reliance on His leading, one's Spiritual Gifts become more appearent and more often used, you'll have all sorts of 'spontaneous opportunties' to minister to people with 'just the right words to say,' etc. I would highly encourage any Christian to learn how to 'live by the Spirit.' It's not easy to do, and it's a continuing learning process, just like any other relationship. But, it's definitely worth it!
RC
_____________________________
Everybody dies. Not everyone really lives. Braveheart
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/9/2009 1:22:49 PM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2731
Joined: 5/16/2005
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Thanks for your reply Kelman. I can respect that.
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rawr.ben
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/10/2009 2:23:32 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcudawg
Kelman,
For thousands of years, because His Word had not been written down, His Sprit inspired many different people to write about God and His expectations. During this time, the Holy Spirit only got intvolved in the lives of a few people. People like Saul, the first king of Israel, David, all of the prophets, Abraham, etc., all experienced God in a person way. It was in a way that was unique to them, but it was in a personal way.
This continued into the 'New Testament" times. Not only did God continue to inspire people to write about Jesus and all that He had done, but God's Spirit continued to protect His Word and enable the various manusripts to be preserved. By the time that Paul's letters, Hebrews and Revelation were being written, God was 'wrapping thing up' as far as insipiring the greatest book of all times, the Holy Bible. So far, we're in agreement.
quote:
However, Jesus Himselfe said that He was going to give us the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, to comfort us, guide, inspire us, etc. Now, we disagree. Where does the Lord Jesus Christ ever say that the Holy Spirit will "inspire" us?....He doesn't. In fact, God says only of Scripture that it is inspired.
quote:
Because our God is on who is very, very interested in how we live our lives, both big and small things, part of the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to help us to bring our lives into alaingment with God's will for us. That's absolutely true. Once a sinner is converted, the Holy Spirit begins the process of sanctification in his life.
quote:
The fist thing that happens when a Christian is born again is that the Holy Spirit enters their lives as a seal. That is, it's God's pledge of Himself that He will follow through with everything that He has promised concerning adopting them as His child and promise for eternal life. But, that's not the only thing that the Holy Spirit does. We have no disagreement here.
quote:
It also calls to mind things we have learned about God/Jesus at appropriate times so that we can apply them to the current situation. For example, have you never been in a discussion with someone about something that you were not familiar with and then God brought certain facts to your mind that were 'exactly what needed to be said?" Or, been ministering to someone who was in pain and you had no idea what to say. But, then, you felt the 'right words' come to your mind. Again, that was the Holy Spirit 'speaking to you.' This is something totally different than God speaking in an audible word, tongue, dream or vision. Of course, God is involved in our lives but in no way does this translate into anything either infallible or inspired. God is clear that He works in the lives of His children for His own good pleasure Phil 2:13 "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
quote:
I have many experiences with God speaking to me. For example, while I was in Iraq in 2006-2007. My wife and I were just friends from the Crosswalk forum at that time. Sharon felt God laying on her heart to correspond with me regularily, to encourage me, and be there for me. And, this was when she still had a lot of issues with men and having a serious relationship a man. But, even though this went against the grain with how she felt about relationships (and she still resisted at times), she did trust God with it. In November, she was asking me questions about issues that her older sister, who was adopted, might face. This is because I'm adopted and have already met my biological family and her sister was in the process of finding out if her biological family wanted to have contact with her.
Our conversation went on for hours. Again, remember, at this stage in her life, she was still not very trusting of men. But, by the end of the conversation, after a lot of personal things being talked about, we were both starting to get the impression that God wanted us to 'become more than just friends.' It was a few weeks later, after lots of prayer about it, that we decided to start a long distance dating relationship. I, for one, was not wanting a long distance relationship because of how my first marriage had ended up. I'm almost at a loss for words. I do not mean this to be unkind and considered just not replying to this part at all. But here goes. I do not believe your "feelings' were from God at all. The most glaring reason is because He would never encourage you to disobey His law. Now, unless your first marriage ended in the death of your wife, you were not eligible to marry again....divorce is not biblically permitted, let alone remarriage.
quote:
Long story short, we both recoinized God directly working in our lives, drawing us together. Yes, we had friction at times. And, we have our disagreements. But, over a period of a year and a half to two years, we obeyed God and got married. And, God is still very, very active in our lives. He is opening doors of possiblity with us in the Methodist church that we are members of, He blessed us with a great starter home, enabled us to get our car paid off, etc. And, time and again, we feel Him nudge us in one direction or another. No, as I said above God would never encourage anyone to sin.
quote:
It's something that we've learned how to listen to, and to discern between God speaking to us, just our human spirit talking, and some sort of demonic spirit talking. Part of it is getting confirmation from other godly people that we trust. Part of it is lifting up the 'nudge' that we feel in pray and asking for confirmation. It just depends. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any of this was satanic because I don't know. If I had to guess, I'd say you were probably just working from your own feelings. Knowing whether something is satanic or not is not as easy as you are implying. The Apostles lived right along with Judas for over three years and didn't have a clue. We're told in 2Cor 11:14-15 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
This is why we stay close to Scripture and do not look for additional revelation from God outside of it. We are less likely to be buffeted by every "wind of doctrine" and those who say "here is Christ, there is Christ".
Eph 4:14 "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"
Mark 13:21-23 "And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things."
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: No disrespect taken - 5/11/2009 6:10:35 PM
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c_h_b
Posts: 146
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Kelman,
I am convinced that you won't accept this, but your lengthy response proved my point. Your belief that there is no more prophecy doesn't come from starting with Scripture and applying the overarching principles to events. Instead, you take whatever bits and pieces fit what you already have concluded to be true. The "I'm rubber, you're glue" tone of some of your responses, together with you making some assumptions about how I interpret and apply Scripture to this subject, support my view.
As such, saying anything to you is useless unless it is to agree with you. You have a set of definitions of terms such as prophecy, revelation, inspired etc. that perfectly satisfy your conclusions, yet are only suited to that purpose. Defining those terms differently would of course destroy your conclusions, so you reject any definition other than your own. (Akin to the person who responds to "the sky is blue" by saying "No, it's azure." LOL)
I don't bother discussing any issue with someone who has such ironclad circular logic as you have displayed in your last post.
_____________________________
Charles
"Jesus is good medicine, khenoronkhwa!"
Jonathan Maracle and Broken Walls
"We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit."
Red Jacket 1805
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RE: No disrespect taken - 5/12/2009 2:36:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
Kelman,
I am convinced that you won't accept this, but your lengthy response proved my point. Your belief that there is no more prophecy doesn't come from starting with Scripture and applying the overarching principles to events. Why would I accept what is patently untrue?...to please you? As to my "lengthy" response, I simply gave you the courtesy of replying to each of the points you raised. Although, I see now all you wanted was a "yes man" and get quite defensive when it isn't forthcoming.
quote:
Instead, you take whatever bits and pieces fit what you already have concluded to be true. No, what I do is compare scripture with scripture versus what you do, address Scripture according to what "feels" good to you and filter it through your theological presuppositions. We know from the Bible that the purpose of the NT miracles was to substantiate and authenticate Jesus and the apostles(see Heb 2).
quote:
The "I'm rubber, you're glue" tone of some of your responses, together with you making some assumptions about how I interpret and apply Scripture to this subject, support my view. I haven't called you any names if that's what you're implying by your childish remark, though noticeably, you've resorted to a few.
If I made an incorrect "assumption" you certainly made no effort to clarify. You seem confused as to whether your "messages" are or are not inspired/infallible. That is rather an important distinction to make....is it from God or simply my own mind?....if from God, then it must of necessity be inspired/infallible....if inspired/infallible messages from God, then an addition to His completed revelation.
quote:
As such, saying anything to you is useless unless it is to agree with you. You have a set of definitions of terms such as prophecy, revelation, inspired etc. that perfectly satisfy your conclusions, yet are only suited to that purpose. You've yet to scripturally challenge any of what you call "my set of definitions"....not surprisingly, since they come from Scripture itself.
quote:
Defining those terms differently would of course destroy your conclusions, so you reject any definition other than your own. (Akin to the person who responds to "the sky is blue" by saying "No, it's azure." LOL) It's rather telling that you accuse me of what you are so blatantly guilty. Your personal definition of "prophecy", and other words, simply doesn't align with what is found in the Bible. Neither have you been able to challenge the corrections I've made to your usage of certain words. No doubt, that's why you've decided to opt out rather than your supposed excuse.
quote:
I don't bother discussing any issue with someone who has such ironclad circular logic as you have displayed in your last post.
Interestingly, you've been completely unable to address the substance of the argument or produce any convincing evidence against it. It's unfortunate you think my logic is circular since I've proved all my points from Scripture.
It's been a pleasure.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/12/2009 4:52:43 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: josephus777
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Did God do away with the prophetic gifting? Or did man?[/size]
kelman:
quote:
The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God.
So that's a no from you then? 
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/12/2009 5:00:29 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
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Just some thoughts with general application, not intended for anyone in particular
Why try so hard to change what someone else believes? We cannot force someone to become a Christian and you cannot force a Christian to think just like you do.
Not looking for a response.....don't need one...thanks!
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/19/2009 2:24:50 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: josephus777
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Did God do away with the prophetic gifting? Or did man?[/size]
kelman:
quote:
The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God.
So that's a no from you then?
Unless you're willing to say that God still provides apostles today, I suggest you consider "prophets" to be those God gave as the church was being established and His revelation was being completed.
quote:
Just some thoughts with general application, not intended for anyone in particular
Why try so hard to change what someone else believes? We cannot force someone to become a Christian and you cannot force a Christian to think just like you do. I don't see anyone trying to "force" a belief. What I see is a forum people are using to express their beliefs....and, yes, sometimes it can get "testy" because people don't like to have their closely held beliefs challenged.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/19/2009 11:46:19 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29).
God is resolute in His decisions. What He has given He will not take back. There is no fluctuation or quibbling. He made His choice, and He’s sticking with it. He will not change His mind later, no matter what. His choice is “without repentance.”
1 Corinthians 12:7–11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Thank you heavenly Father for the infilling of your precious Holy Spirit. I thank you that you do not change and that your standards are above ours. Thank you that you do work in the world today by your Spirit and thank you for the gifts of your Spirit that enable us to live for you in the midst of so much unbelief.
< Message edited by solarflare -- 5/19/2009 11:53:01 AM >
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/20/2009 5:32:26 PM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
Joined: 5/9/2008
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a friend of mine was raised from the dead---- and a roomate of mine had his finger tip grow back--- my evidence is pretty hard to refute, except to accuse me of lying, and i assure you, i am not.
God speaks to me, kelman--- maybe if you let him He will speak to you as well.
because something is outside of your theology does not mean it didn't happen.....
He said we would do greater things --- so why are we not?
unbelief, mostly.
God telling me to take the bus-----is not adding to His word---it is God getting me to take the bus so that the lady i meet can get saved.
God did not cease speaking after rev 22.
He speaks to intercessors to pray specifically for folk in certain situations---
this is not adding to His word---this is the normal Christian life.
He is GRIEVED by unbelief.
you think He doesn't raise the dead and heal these days?
you should see what happens in HIS church sometime!
not the finance fellas and the big deal wolves---just His little congregations who pray for healing and get it...
it is beautiful.
house meetings and folks on the street---praying and believing and seeing miracles----
and getting a word of knowledge sometimes, kelman--- to lead a sinner into the grace of God---it happens----and would happen even more if YOU stepped up , humbled yourself, and asked God about it.
check out this fella's testimony---in cartoon form---
He was like you---didn't believe in healings---and the Lord spoke to Him----
http://www.theophilus.org/cartoons1.html
which was not God adding to His word, see... it was God talking to His sheep---they hear His voice, eh?
LOVE!
gibbin<><
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/21/2009 4:40:09 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29).
God is resolute in His decisions. What He has given He will not take back. There is no fluctuation or quibbling. He made His choice, and He’s sticking with it. He will not change His mind later, no matter what. His choice is “without repentance.” So I take it you do believe there are apostles today?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/21/2009 4:42:36 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gibbin
a friend of mine was raised from the dead---- and a roomate of mine had his finger tip grow back--- my evidence is pretty hard to refute, except to accuse me of lying, and i assure you, i am not.
God speaks to me, kelman--- maybe if you let him He will speak to you as well. We speak to God in prayer and He speaks directly to us through His written Word. If we are a child of God, we will have that sense that what the Bible says is God speaking and we want to listen to what He says. We delight in the fact that we can hear from God. God is witnessing to our spirit.
quote:
because something is outside of your theology does not mean it didn't happen..... No, simply because it is "outside" of Scripture. Do "things" happen?....sure, but to say that God is working apart from the laws of nature which He put into place is simply not true.
quote:
He said we would do greater things --- so why are we not? And you somehow attribute these "greater things" to wonder working miracles....why? The context does not support such a conclusion.
quote:
God telling me to take the bus-----is not adding to His word---it is God getting me to take the bus so that the lady i meet can get saved.
God did not cease speaking after rev 22.
He speaks to intercessors to pray specifically for folk in certain situations---
this is not adding to His word---this is the normal Christian life.
He is GRIEVED by unbelief.
you think He doesn't raise the dead and heal these days? God is the giver of life. All who get "healed" are healed by God and that includes the Atheist and those for whom a prayer was never uttered. God acts supernaturally today when He saves souls from hell. People want some kind of sign or manifestation, and, of course, God will not accommodate them. The Bible warns in 2Cor 11:13-15 that Satan comes as an angel of light...we should be very cautious whom we trust to teach us.
quote:
and getting a word of knowledge sometimes, kelman--- to lead a sinner into the grace of God---it happens----and would happen even more if YOU stepped up , humbled yourself, and asked God about it. True humility would be to accept what God has written concerning the end of visions, "words", dreams, tongues, etc., rather than to attempt to "improve" upon His Revelation and desire something more "exciting". Apparently, the revelation of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible is not sufficient. And this despite the fact we are told that Scripture is sufficient to "perfect" the man of God(2Tim 3:16-17).
quote:
which was not God adding to His word, see... it was God talking to His sheep---they hear His voice, eh? Yes, indeed, they do.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/21/2009 8:11:07 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, simply because it is "outside" of Scripture. Do "things" happen?....sure, but to say that God is working apart from the laws of nature which He put into place is simply not true.
Me thinks you may have overstepped with this statement.
God does not work ouside the laws of Nature?
Moving the sun back.
Parting the Red Sea (with dry ground where it parted)
Virgin Birth
Resurrection of Christ
Ascending into Heaven.
Lazarus
etc.
God does operate in the super-natural
quote:
We speak to God in prayer and He speaks directly to us through His written Word.
And by the Holy Spirit (John 14,15,16)
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/21/2009 10:51:06 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
So I take it you do believe there are apostles today?
“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance” (Romans 11:29).
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/21/2009 10:58:49 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
So I take it you do believe there are apostles today?
Here is a definition of what the word apostle actually means.
Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel.
A missionary of the early Christian Church.
A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region.
One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation.
A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.
1 Corinthians 12:7–11 :
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
Argue with Scripture. I did not write the above.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/21/2009 12:34:35 PM
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dwain
Posts: 170
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: gibbin
a friend of mine was raised from the dead---- and a roomate of mine had his finger tip grow back--- my evidence is pretty hard to refute, except to accuse me of lying, and i assure you, i am not.
God speaks to me, kelman--- maybe if you let him He will speak to you as well.
because something is outside of your theology does not mean it didn't happen.....
He said we would do greater things --- so why are we not?
unbelief, mostly.
God telling me to take the bus-----is not adding to His word---it is God getting me to take the bus so that the lady i meet can get saved.
God did not cease speaking after rev 22.
He speaks to intercessors to pray specifically for folk in certain situations---
this is not adding to His word---this is the normal Christian life.
He is GRIEVED by unbelief.
you think He doesn't raise the dead and heal these days?
you should see what happens in HIS church sometime!
not the finance fellas and the big deal wolves---just His little congregations who pray for healing and get it...
it is beautiful.
house meetings and folks on the street---praying and believing and seeing miracles----
and getting a word of knowledge sometimes, kelman--- to lead a sinner into the grace of God---it happens----and would happen even more if YOU stepped up , humbled yourself, and asked God about it.
check out this fella's testimony---in cartoon form---
He was like you---didn't believe in healings---and the Lord spoke to Him----
http://www.theophilus.org/cartoons1.html
which was not God adding to His word, see... it was God talking to His sheep---they hear His voice, eh?
LOVE!
gibbin<><
Liked the cartoons, earnestly, especially the legalism dream.
><>
_____________________________
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/thegoodnewsofjesuschrist/
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dwainfred/
Deut. 33:27 The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/22/2009 2:18:15 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, simply because it is "outside" of Scripture. Do "things" happen?....sure, but to say that God is working apart from the laws of nature which He put into place is simply not true.
Me thinks you may have overstepped with this statement.
God does not work ouside the laws of Nature?
Moving the sun back.
Parting the Red Sea (with dry ground where it parted)
Virgin Birth
Resurrection of Christ
Ascending into Heaven.
Lazarus
etc.
God does operate in the super-natural
quote:
We speak to God in prayer and He speaks directly to us through His written Word.
And by the Holy Spirit (John 14,15,16)
Thanks
RC
Yes, RC, I fully understand God performed many supernatural miracles. We can't read Scripture and not see this. But, I'm speaking about today once God ended any further additonal revelation to His Word.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/22/2009 2:29:04 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
So I take it you do believe there are apostles today?
Here is a definition of what the word apostle actually means.
Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel.
A missionary of the early Christian Church.
A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region.
One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation.
A passionate adherent; a strong supporter. The Bible defines what an "apostle" is - not a dictionary. In Scripture, it is most often used to designate "the Twelve". In fact, one of the qualifications of an apostle is that he witnessed Christ's resurrection.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/22/2009 9:31:55 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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The Bible defines what an "apostle" is - not a dictionary. In Scripture, it is most often used to designate "the Twelve". In fact, one of the qualifications of an apostle is that he witnessed Christ's resurrection.
Oh, I think my quote explains quite well with regards to Scripture. It certainly does not contradict Scripture. Splitting hairs does not prove a point Kelman.
And how about this:
1 Corinthians 12:7–11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
You appear to be contradiciting what Scripture says while saying I should consult Scripture. The gifts are real Kelman and still applicable. You're apparent desire to avoid them results only in you not experiencing them.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/22/2009 9:53:49 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Yes, RC, I fully understand God performed many supernatural miracles. We can't read Scripture and not see this. But, I'm speaking about today once God ended any further additonal revelation to His Word.
I think we have discussed this before, but for the bemefit of the readers of this particular thread;
I agree that there will not be any future "Revelations" outside of Scripture; but the Holy Spirit gives plenty of "Clarifications". It happens everytime we read the Scriptures, hear a sermon or a teaching, attend Church with other Believers, or just while talking "Jesus" stuff over coffee with someone.
Without the ministry of the Holy Spirit the Bible is just a book full of words, but with His teaching us; Scripture become a living testimony to us.
God has not gone on vacaton to Acapulco or somewhere; He works in this world, and in our lives on a daily basis through the Ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said;
(Joh 16:7) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And I say Praise God that He is working in us, and in the world today as always;
(Heb 13:8) Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
The promise of Christ (God) is;
(Joh 14:16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(Joh 14:17) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(Joh 14:18) I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
We are not confortless, we are not alone, God is with us and in us just as much as He ever was. Actually moreso; for now He is not only with us, but in us who believe.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 2:23:36 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
The Bible defines what an "apostle" is - not a dictionary. In Scripture, it is most often used to designate "the Twelve". In fact, one of the qualifications of an apostle is that he witnessed Christ's resurrection.
Oh, I think my quote explains quite well with regards to Scripture. It certainly does not contradict Scripture. Splitting hairs does not prove a point Kelman. I don't think it's "splitting hairs" to remind you that we don't get our definition of scriptural words from secular sources.
quote:
And how about this:
1 Corinthians 12:7–11
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
You appear to be contradiciting what Scripture says while saying I should consult Scripture. I said you should consult Scripture for the definition of the word "apostles" and that certainly is no contradiction.
We know from Scripture that the completed canon is all that is needed for life and godliness (2Peter 1:3) and for equipping the man of God for every good work (2Tim 3:17). While edification within the church was certainly part of the purpose of the miraculous gifts (1Cor 12), it was not the only purpose (Heb 2:4), nor does it mandate that the gifts themselves have continued.
It is quite impossible to claim that the canon is closed and yet at the same time that God is still giving true, error-free revelation to His people.
quote:
The gifts are real Kelman and still applicable. You're apparent desire to avoid them results only in you not experiencing them.
To experience that which God has not given has never been a desire of mine.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 2:25:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Yes, RC, I fully understand God performed many supernatural miracles. We can't read Scripture and not see this. But, I'm speaking about today once God ended any further additonal revelation to His Word.
I think we have discussed this before, but for the bemefit of the readers of this particular thread;
I agree that there will not be any future "Revelations" outside of Scripture; but the Holy Spirit gives plenty of "Clarifications". It happens everytime we read the Scriptures, hear a sermon or a teaching, attend Church with other Believers, or just while talking "Jesus" stuff over coffee with someone.
Without the ministry of the Holy Spirit the Bible is just a book full of words, but with His teaching us; Scripture become a living testimony to us. Absolutely, without the Holy Spirit "opening" Scripture for us, the Bible would remain just a rather interesting book.
The "main" ministry and true miracle of the Holy Spirit is the inward working upon the heart of a sinner to regenerate him - not outward miracles.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 9:29:17 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The "main" ministry and true miracle of the Holy Spirit is the inward working upon the heart of a sinner to regenerate him - not outward miracles.
Well of course that is important, but the convincing us of our rughteousness after repentance (John 16;10), and convincing us of judgment because the devil is judged (John 16:11), and telling us of all the wonderful things that God has prepared for us who believe (1 Corinthians 2:10-14) is also important.
Least we forget, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are also very important to our salvation, growth, and spiritual well being (1 Corthians 12-4-14), as his His revealing things to come (John 16:14), and he prays for us (Romans 8:26-27), The Holy Spirit will teach us what to say (Luke 12:12), and bring to our memories what Christ has taught us (John 14:16).
And on and on and on.
I for one am not going to discount any of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, nor try to decide which part of what Scripture says is true, or which part of Scripture is a lie: I just happen to believe all of it.
Now as to the gifts that many want to act like in not in Scripture; there is a lot of our New Testament dedicated to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; so personally, I am not going to act as though they are not there.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 9:34:53 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5285
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons get mugged and shot at...
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God. We can be extraordinarlity grateful to God that we don't have to run around trying to hear the latest version of His "word". Afterall, if God is still speaking today, we should want to know what He says...did He speak in Peru today?....did He speak in New York today? No, God has completed His "Word".
BTW, do you think we still have "apostles" today?....the verse says we do. Hopefully, you answer in the negative. God did give us apostles and prophets as He was finishing the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Bible. Now, we have it all and that is what we preach or prophesy.
Amen, amen and amen.
We have the full Word of God now, no excuses or lack.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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