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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 9:39:18 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
So now I wonder what sort of prophecy you consider to be "adding to the word"?
For starters? Benny Hinn who is a false prophet and a false teacher.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 10:52:34 AM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
So now I wonder what sort of prophecy you consider to be "adding to the word"?
For starters? Benny Hinn who is a false prophet and a false teacher.
Is it really necessary to turn everything into a Benny Hinn thread? Isn't there a one stop for that?
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 11:00:45 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
So now I wonder what sort of prophecy you consider to be "adding to the word"?
I would consider "Adding to the Word" to be speaking something contrare to the plain and simple Word;
such as "You have to hold a copper penny in your mouth when baptized to be saved".
Or the ever popular cult prophesy; "God says I am to take your pre-teen daughter as my wife".
Using the New Testament as a benchmark for all things will help to keep us on the straight and narrow.
NOw phrases such as "Trinity" and others are well based in Scripture even though the actual word "Trinity" is not.
Some of the more popular additions of late come from the emergent Chruch; such as universalism, etc.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 2:02:45 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
So now I wonder what sort of prophecy you consider to be "adding to the word"?
For starters? Benny Hinn who is a false prophet and a false teacher.
Is it really necessary to turn everything into a Benny Hinn thread? Isn't there a one stop for that?
Turn "everything"? I have thousands and thousands and thousands of posts.
He asked for an example and he is a prime living one of what is meant when the term 'false prophet' is used.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 3:35:33 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Turn "everything"? I have thousands and thousands and thousands of posts.
He asked for an example and he is a prime living one of what is meant when the term 'false prophet' is used.
Yes. I know. This thread is not about false prophets.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/23/2009 6:21:20 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Turn "everything"? I have thousands and thousands and thousands of posts.
He asked for an example and he is a prime living one of what is meant when the term 'false prophet' is used.
Yes. I know. This thread is not about false prophets.
I answered a question that was asked. Move on.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/27/2009 4:52:36 AM
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gibbin
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hmmm---
i gather you think that the KJV is the perfection that would come---so that this is the "one day" when tongues cease? and such?
i see no other faint HINT that the gifts have been done away with--- in scripture---
in fact i see lotsa suggestion that we should covet the best gifts---and paul prays that we all would speak in tongues, but pray rather that we would prophecy...
would that prophecy be adding to the scripture?
i understand yer concern--- no body wants what God does not give--- but honestly---He still raises the dead and heals and such---and folks speak in tounges---and sometimes it's german or what have you--and it glorifies God---
i also see no place in the scripture that says--- no more five fold ministry-- the apostles must have been more than the 12--- or the 72-- because of the office set up in the letter---
but even if it were only the 72---what about praying that we all prophecy?
and the prophets---where were they coming from? is it JUST agabus and the four virgin daughters---and who ever else is mentioned in acts?
you'd have to site a bit more scripture to convince me otherwise--- i see none at the moment---
( unless you mean "one day prophecy will fail, etc....and are convinced that the KJV is perfection---instead of the return of Christ--- which strikes me as a pretty shaky interpretation--- do you have any other scriptures to back it up?)
cheers!
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/27/2009 8:45:12 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gibbin
hmmm---
i gather you think that the KJV is the perfection that would come---so that this is the "one day" when tongues cease? and such?
i see no other faint HINT that the gifts have been done away with--- in scripture---
in fact i see lotsa suggestion that we should covet the best gifts---and paul prays that we all would speak in tongues, but pray rather that we would prophecy...
would that prophecy be adding to the scripture?
i understand yer concern--- no body wants what God does not give--- but honestly---He still raises the dead and heals and such---and folks speak in tounges---and sometimes it's german or what have you--and it glorifies God---
i also see no place in the scripture that says--- no more five fold ministry-- the apostles must have been more than the 12--- or the 72-- because of the office set up in the letter---
but even if it were only the 72---what about praying that we all prophecy?
and the prophets---where were they coming from? is it JUST agabus and the four virgin daughters---and who ever else is mentioned in acts?
you'd have to site a bit more scripture to convince me otherwise--- i see none at the moment---
( unless you mean "one day prophecy will fail, etc....and are convinced that the KJV is perfection---instead of the return of Christ--- which strikes me as a pretty shaky interpretation--- do you have any other scriptures to back it up?)
cheers!
Excellent post gibbin.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/30/2009 3:56:36 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The "main" ministry and true miracle of the Holy Spirit is the inward working upon the heart of a sinner to regenerate him - not outward miracles.
Well of course that is important, but the convincing us of our rughteousness after repentance (John 16;10), and convincing us of judgment because the devil is judged (John 16:11), and telling us of all the wonderful things that God has prepared for us who believe (1 Corinthians 2:10-14) is also important.
Least we forget, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are also very important to our salvation, growth, and spiritual well being (1 Corthians 12-4-14), as his His revealing things to come (John 16:14), and he prays for us (Romans 8:26-27), The Holy Spirit will teach us what to say (Luke 12:12), and bring to our memories what Christ has taught us (John 14:16). And somehow you take this to mean God is telling you that He will continue to give special revelations in dreams, visons, audible words, etc., rather than what He has revealed in Scripture? Sorry, but we don't find that in those verses.
What we do find is Peter telling us that because he wants us to have the fullness of the truth he will write it down(2Peter 1). John 14:16 is speaking specifically to the Apostles - not us. Jesus tells them the Holy Spirit will bring to their remembrance all that He taught THEM so that THEY might teach us in turn. The work of the Holy Spirit today is to save and to teach us. We see this in John 14:26. He gives us an understanding so that we know we are sinners and that we need the Savior. The Holy Spirit applies His Word to our hearts so that we begin to trust in Jesus as our Savior.
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I for one am not going to discount any of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, nor try to decide which part of what Scripture says is true, or which part of Scripture is a lie: I just happen to believe all of it. Nope, no need to decide what part of Scripture is true for it is all true. The need, though, comes in rightly understanding what God is saying.
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Now as to the gifts that many want to act like in not in Scripture; there is a lot of our New Testament dedicated to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; so personally, I am not going to act as though they are not there. Of course, God has given believers certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. The problem is that many want to think of themselves as some type of "special" prophet with personal additional revelation from God....only God will not violate His own words to accommodate them.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/30/2009 3:57:54 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The only prophetic "office" today is the one given to all believers - to preach the Word of God. We can be extraordinarlity grateful to God that we don't have to run around trying to hear the latest version of His "word". Afterall, if God is still speaking today, we should want to know what He says...did He speak in Peru today?....did He speak in New York today? No, God has completed His "Word".
BTW, do you think we still have "apostles" today?....the verse says we do. Hopefully, you answer in the negative. God did give us apostles and prophets as He was finishing the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Bible. Now, we have it all and that is what we preach or prophesy.
Amen, amen and amen.
We have the full Word of God now, no excuses or lack.
Unfortunately, that fullness of the Word of God is not sufficient for many.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/30/2009 3:59:27 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: c_h_b
So now I wonder what sort of prophecy you consider to be "adding to the word"?
I would consider "Adding to the Word" to be speaking something contrare to the plain and simple Word; Interesting definition of the word "adding" - it only means adding when someone adds what I don't think belongs.
Sorry, but "adding" means adding.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/30/2009 4:02:12 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
I don't think it's "splitting hairs" to remind you that we don't get our definition of scriptural words from secular sources.
This reminds me of a dog shaking a bone. He will not let it go even though there is a whole bowl of food just waiting. No, he holds on to that bone and shakes it and shakes it because he owns it and it is his. Can't help what something reminds you of, but the fact remains the Bible defines its own words not Merriam-Webster.
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Kelman, you ignore the rest of Scripture....you are never going to prove anything...because you ignore what Scripture says. Well, it's not me ignoring Rev 22:18.
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I said you should consult Scripture for the definition of the word "apostles" and that certainly is no contradiction.
I see. So the Bible contains its own dictionary as well now which describes every word in it only in a Scriptural sense?  Why would you want to define biblical words by secular sources? If God uses a word no doubt He explains what He means by it...if we take the time to see how He uses it.
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The word apostle does not have the narrow narrow definition of being only the 12 or the apostle Paul. Actually, the word is used overwhelmingly in its narrow definition.
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Let God call an apostle whom He will...personally, I don't know any nor do I believe that those calling themselves such, necessairly are. Your argument starts to sound like the person that says
"I don't believe in God because I can't see him." You're the one who just said that because you don't "know" any apostles you don't think there are any....so, you're guilty of using same type of "argument" with which you accuse me.
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It is quite impossible to claim that the canon is closed and yet at the same time that God is still giving true, error-free revelation to His people.
Yeah, so? No one but you keeps saying that. No, actually that's been the point of most of this thread. There are those who claim they get revelations from God but will also claim the canon is closed....can't have it both ways, though.
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I'm not adding to Scripture..why do you keep harping on this? This is old news You are, if you claim that you receive revelations from God.
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To experience that which God has not given has never been a desire of mine.
And do you think anyone here wants that by default because they didn't say so? You said that I "desire to avoid" certain "gifts", hence, my statement about not wanting to experience that which God has not given. As to what others here want, I don't claim to know.
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Scripture does not back up your claim that the gifts are no longer in existance.
A dogmatic statement; but one which you haven't substantiated.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/30/2009 4:05:31 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gibbin
hmmm---
i gather you think that the KJV is the perfection that would come---so that this is the "one day" when tongues cease? and such? A rather strange assumption on your part.
quote:
i see no other faint HINT that the gifts have been done away with--- in scripture---
in fact i see lotsa suggestion that we should covet the best gifts---and paul prays that we all would speak in tongues, but pray rather that we would prophecy... There's a lot more than a "faint hint" the evidence is overwhelming. If God is still giving us new revelation today through prophecy and the interpretation of tongues then we best take close notice of every occurrence since this means God is still giving Scripture. Did Paul try to "heal" himself or Timothy, didn't he leave Trophimus sick at Miletus? No, within twenty or so years these "miracles" had ceased. To begin with miracles never went any further than the Apostles and two other close associates of theirs.
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would that prophecy be adding to the scripture? Any new revelation from God is considered an addition to Scripture. How does the Bible tell us we received Scripture?..."Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
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i understand yer concern--- no body wants what God does not give--- but honestly---He still raises the dead and heals and such---and folks speak in tounges---and sometimes it's german or what have you--and it glorifies God--- There is not one modern occurrence of “raising the dead” which can be verified – not one. No, those who claim miracles today are not able to substantiate their claims.
quote:
i also see no place in the scripture that says--- no more five fold ministry-- the apostles must have been more than the 12--- or the 72-- because of the office set up in the letter--- Were there 70 other disciples?...yes. But when the word "apostle" is used, overwhelmingly it refers to the Twelve.
quote:
but even if it were only the 72---what about praying that we all prophecy?
and the prophets---where were they coming from? is it JUST agabus and the four virgin daughters---and who ever else is mentioned in acts? Of course, they prophesied; but, when Scripture was complete this prophecy ended - God's revelation was complete.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/30/2009 9:17:02 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And somehow you take this to mean God is telling you that He will continue to give special revelations in dreams, visons, audible words, etc., rather than what He has revealed in Scripture? Sorry, but we don't find that in those verses.
It is hard to understand Scripture when they are all filtered through a misunderstanding of 1 Corintians 13:10.
quote:
Of course, God has given believers certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. The problem is that many want to think of themselves as some type of "special" prophet with personal additional revelation from God....only God will not violate His own words to accommodate them.
And because some idiot who "want to think of themselves as some type of "special" prophet", then we should discount all the work of and gifts from the Holy Spirit?
quote:
Of course, God has given believers certain gifts of the Holy Spirit
In your understanding of Scripture which gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to Beleivers today?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/30/2009 3:35:42 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Can't help what something reminds you of, but the fact remains the Bible defines its own words not Merriam-Webster.
This is not even addressing the post I made. This is just a remark to once again deflect the fact that your claims cannot be backed up by Scripture. You say the same things over and over which is why I wrote what I did. You may have convinced yourself, but I think it is a party of one
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Well, it's not me ignoring Rev 22:18.
No one has added to Scripture. You are trying hard to subract from it though. But did you know that many people feel that only applies to Revelations? Now I don't....but again, no one is adding to Scripture...
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Why would you want to define biblical words by secular sources? If God uses a word no doubt He explains what He means by it...if we take the time to see how He uses it.
The question really should be why do you think a word means something in Scripture and something else outside of it? If you do that with one word, where will you draw the line?
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You're the one who just said that because you don't "know" any apostles you don't think there are any....so, you're guilty of using same type of "argument" with which you accuse me.
Not really. You say there are none. I simply said I don't know any.
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You are, if you claim that you receive revelations from God.
If you are going to quote me, at least do so truthfully. I never said I receive revelations from God. I know what you believe or think the Bible says...but you do not grasp what the rest of us are actually saying here.
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A dogmatic statement; but one which you haven't substantiated.
The New Testament backs it up....but apparently you don't think so.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/31/2009 5:01:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And somehow you take this to mean God is telling you that He will continue to give special revelations in dreams, visons, audible words, etc., rather than what He has revealed in Scripture? Sorry, but we don't find that in those verses.
It is hard to understand Scripture when they are all filtered through a misunderstanding of 1 Corintians 13:10. Since I haven't offered an opinion on that verse, your point is lost.
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quote:
Of course, God has given believers certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. The problem is that many want to think of themselves as some type of "special" prophet with personal additional revelation from God....only God will not violate His own words to accommodate them.
And because some idiot who "want to think of themselves as some type of "special" prophet", then we should discount all the work of and gifts from the Holy Spirit? Sorry, but I don't consider those who believe in dreams, visions and tongues to be "idiots". So, again, your point is lost. Besides, who said anything about discounting "all the work and gifts from the Holy Spirit"?....not me.
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quote:
Of course, God has given believers certain gifts of the Holy Spirit
In your understanding of Scripture which gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to Beleivers today?
All believers have been given the "gift" of the Holy Spirit (Jn 7:37-39; Acts 2:38; 1Cor 12:13). The church today has all the "ordinary" gifts or offices such as pastors and teachers (Rom. 12:7; Eph. 4:11; I Tim. 3:1-7); ruling elders("governments," I Cor. 12:28; "he who rules," Rom. 12:8) and deacons(Rom. 12:7-8; I Tim. 3:8-13).
It does not, however, continue with the apostolic gifts - apostles, prophets, miracles, healings, tongues, words of wisdom and knowledge, etc. Why?....because God has completed His revelation to man. There will be no additional "word" from Christ until He returns.
Clearly, the continuation of post-apostolic prophecy (and tongues,etc.) in the church would violate the closed finished character of the canon. It would, in fact, exclude a completed canon.
Eph 2:20 tells us that both the apostles and the NT prophets were given to the church for its foundational stages. Since apostles are no longer in the church today, it follows that the foundational stage is over. Thus, the revelatory gifts that accompanied apostles and prophets (such as the gift of prophecy) are no longer needed in the church.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/31/2009 5:04:29 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Can't help what something reminds you of, but the fact remains the Bible defines its own words not Merriam-Webster.
This is not even addressing the post I made. This is just a remark to once again deflect the fact that your claims cannot be backed up by Scripture. You say the same things over and over which is why I wrote what I did. You may have convinced yourself, but I think it is a party of one I addressed a portion of your post, in fact, your first sentence. That portion where you continue to imply that biblical terms should be defined by secular dictionaries. For some very odd reason, my pointing this out reminds you "of a dog shaking a bone".
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Well, it's not me ignoring Rev 22:18.
No one has added to Scripture. You are trying hard to subract from it though. But did you know that many people feel that only applies to Revelations? Now I don't....but again, no one is adding to Scripture... When one says he has been "given a word from God", then that one is adding to Scripture. You cannot say that the canon of Scripture is closed and then in the next breath say God has given you additional "words".
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Why would you want to define biblical words by secular sources? If God uses a word no doubt He explains what He means by it...if we take the time to see how He uses it.
The question really should be why do you think a word means something in Scripture and something else outside of it? If you do that with one word, where will you draw the line? I draw the line where all lines should be drawn - with Scripture. I can't imagine how anyone could attempt to study the Bible and not search it to see what God means by certain words and phrases. Take, for instance, the words "soul and spirit". Do we go to a dictionary to see how God uses those words?...whatever for? No, we search Scripture to determine His meaning.
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You're the one who just said that because you don't "know" any apostles you don't think there are any....so, you're guilty of using same type of "argument" with which you accuse me.
Not really. You say there are none. I simply said I don't know any. Yep, that's your argument, you don't know if there are apostles, therefore, "Your argument starts to sound like the person that says I don't believe in God because I can't see him." Your words, not mine.
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You are, if you claim that you receive revelations from God.
If you are going to quote me, at least do so truthfully. I never said I receive revelations from God. I know what you believe or think the Bible says...but you do not grasp what the rest of us are actually saying here. Since you are arguing in favor of the continuation of the revelatory gifts, I assumed you thought you had some, my apologies.
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A dogmatic statement; but one which you haven't substantiated.
The New Testament backs it up....but apparently you don't think so.
No, what we see in the NT, Eph 2:20 and 4:11 for instance, tells us that the apostles and prophets along with their revelatory gifts were the foundation of the church. The job God gave them to do (lay the foundation of the church) has been done. Now that stage has been completed, neither of the two groups is needed.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/31/2009 8:44:02 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Clearly, the continuation of post-apostolic prophecy (and tongues,etc.) in the church would violate the closed finished character of the canon. It would, in fact, exclude a completed canon.
Which canon are you refering to and when was it closed?
And do you consider all the gifts of the Holy Spirit active up until that date?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/31/2009 9:35:42 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And do you consider all the gifts of the Holy Spirit active up until that date?
Thanks
RC
Firstly, God still heals today and miracles are still done by Him. To say otherwise would be wholly unbiblical.
Yet we do see a lot of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit tampering off with the apostles and disciples before even the close of the canon of Scripture. Instances where they could not always heal someone as certain as before, etc..
We also see how both in Acts and the Epistles - the vast majority of miracles are performed by the apostles and their close associates.
The Apostle Paul gives us the reason why: “The things that mark an apostle - signs, wonders and miracles - were done among you with great perseverance” (2 Corinthians 12:12).
If every believer in Christ was equipped with the ability to perform signs, wonders, and miracles, then signs, wonders, and miracles could in no way be the identifying marks of an apostle.
Acts 2:22 tells us that Jesus was “accredited” by “miracles, wonders, and signs.”
Similarly, the apostles were “marked” as genuine messengers from God by the miracles they performed... Acts 14:3 describes the gospel message being “confirmed” by the miracles Paul and Barnabas performed.
Beside the apostles and their close associates, the New Testament nowhere specifically describes individuals exercising the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.
I hope we all do understand why it was so important for the Holy Spirit to empower those He did during that time - the Church did not have God's completed Word as we are so blessed to have today. Such being the case, the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, wisdom, etc... were necessary for early Christians.
Because we have the full Word of God the "revelatory" gifts are no longer necessary, at least not in the same manner as they were in the New Testament.
One of my many study Bibles has this following piece in it: "God miraculously heals people every day. God still speaks to us today, whether in an audible voice, in our minds, or through impressions and feelings.
God still does amazing miracles, signs, and wonders and sometimes performs those miracles through a Christian.
However, these things are not necessarily the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. The primary purpose of the miraculous gifts was to prove that the gospel was true and that the apostles were truly God’s messengers.
The Bible does not say outright that the miraculous gifts have ceased, but it does lay the foundation for why they might no longer occur to the same extent as they did as recorded in the New Testament."
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/31/2009 10:41:45 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Firstly, God still heals today and miracles are still done by Him. To say otherwise would be wholly unbiblical.
Yet we do see a lot of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit tampering off with the apostles and disciples before even the close of the canon of Scripture. Instances where they could not always heal someone as certain as before, etc..
We also see how both in Acts and the Epistles - the vast majority of miracles are performed by the apostles and their close associates.
The Apostle Paul gives us the reason why: “The things that mark an apostle - signs, wonders and miracles - were done among you with great perseverance” (2 Corinthians 12:12).
If every believer in Christ was equipped with the ability to perform signs, wonders, and miracles, then signs, wonders, and miracles could in no way be the identifying marks of an apostle.
Acts 2:22 tells us that Jesus was “accredited” by “miracles, wonders, and signs.”
Similarly, the apostles were “marked” as genuine messengers from God by the miracles they performed... Acts 14:3 describes the gospel message being “confirmed” by the miracles Paul and Barnabas performed.
Beside the apostles and their close associates, the New Testament nowhere specifically describes individuals exercising the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.
I hope we all do understand why it was so important for the Holy Spirit to empower those He did during that time - the Church did not have God's completed Word as we are so blessed to have today. Such being the case, the gifts of prophecy, knowledge, wisdom, etc... were necessary for early Christians.
Because we have the full Word of God the "revelatory" gifts are no longer necessary, at least not in the same manner as they were in the New Testament.
One of my many study Bibles has this following piece in it: "God miraculously heals people every day. God still speaks to us today, whether in an audible voice, in our minds, or through impressions and feelings.
God still does amazing miracles, signs, and wonders and sometimes performs those miracles through a Christian.
However, these things are not necessarily the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. The primary purpose of the miraculous gifts was to prove that the gospel was true and that the apostles were truly God’s messengers.
The Bible does not say outright that the miraculous gifts have ceased, but it does lay the foundation for why they might no longer occur to the same extent as they did as recorded in the New Testament."
I will agree mostly with your post Earthless, but whether we 'See" something or not, does not make it unavailable or passe'. I have never seen anyone go to Heaven, Lordy I have not even seen Heaven, but I know it is there because the Word says that it is.
As to prophecy in the Church; the Biblical definition of prophecy is;
(1Co 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
And I think the Church needs edification, exhortation, and comfort now as much as it ever did.
Some seem to not understand the definiton of prophecy in the Chruch and try to make it a doctrine changing thingy; that is just not the case, nor the purpose of the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit.
As far as miracles and healings being scarce; Christ suffered this same problem;
(Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
And when the Church as a whole does not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit then it seems the same. We just need to believe the Word.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 5/31/2009 10:58:38 AM >
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/31/2009 12:11:44 PM
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TJStarfire
Posts: 237
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: josephus777
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Did God do away with the prophetic gifting? Or did man?[/size]
MEN did it when they turned to blaspheming the Holy spirit by claiming all spirits are evil.
PS that is not to say that it doesn't happen, it is just not believed.
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Every time you are observed,
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 5/31/2009 3:19:08 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1521
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I addressed a portion of your post, in fact, your first sentence. That portion where you continue to imply that biblical terms should be defined by secular dictionaries. For some very odd reason, my pointing this out reminds you "of a dog shaking a bone".
Kelman, you have repeatedly ignored much of any post other than what you think you can refute. I never said or implied that Biblical terms should be defined by secular dictionaries. And you know that. It would appear a convenient argument from your perspective if I had actually written such a thing. However, this is what I actually wrote:
quote:
Here is a definition of what the word apostle actually means.
Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel.
A missionary of the early Christian Church.
A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region.
One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation.
A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.
and in a follow up post I wrote this:
quote:
I see. So the Bible contains its own dictionary as well now which describes every word in it only in a Scriptural sense? The word apostle does not have the narrow narrow definition of being only the 12 or the apostle Paul. Let God call an apostle whom He will...personally, I don't know any nor do I believe that those calling themselves such, necessairly are. Your argument starts to sound like the person that says
"I don't believe in God because I can't see him."
What reminds me of a 'dog shaking a bone' is the way you get a hold of a piece of what I have written and shake it repeatedly, no matter how many times I point out that is not what I really said. A dog shakes a bone because often a canine will shake an animal to death and so the dog shakes the bone...part of their behavior...even tho it is not alive. You keep trying to make a point over things I either did not really even write or you twist what I write...such as your statement that I said that all Biblical terms should be defined by secular dictionaries. You are hung up on the word dictionary.
A word means what it means period. I am aware that Scripture defines what an apostle is, not by the meaning of the word itself, but by what an apostle does and is according to Scripture. You might have seen that yourself instead of unjustly making the statement that I use secular means other than Scripture to understand same.
quote:
When one says he has been "given a word from God", then that one is adding to Scripture. You cannot say that the canon of Scripture is closed and then in the next breath say God has given you additional "words".
So say you. Scripture is plain that the Holy Spirit prophesying through
someone is edifying, exhorting and comforting. That is what is generally meant as a word from God. But, since you have decided not to believe that, you want the rest of us to govern ourselves accordingly. You berate me for supposedly using a dictionary as my yardstick for understanding Scripture, which I do not do, but then you would like me to believe that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than what you say He is.
quote:
I draw the line where all lines should be drawn - with Scripture. I can't imagine how anyone could attempt to study the Bible and not search it to see what God means by certain words and phrases. Take, for instance, the words "soul and spirit". Do we go to a dictionary to see how God uses those words?...whatever for? No, we search Scripture to determine His meaning.
No Kelman. You draw the line where you want to and with your own experience. If I experience something, I will hold it up in the light of Scripture. You, will tell me there is no such thing.
I already covered your erroneous belief that I do not know what proper exegesis of the Scriptures is above.
quote:
Since you are arguing in favor of the continuation of the revelatory gifts, I assumed you thought you had some, my apologies.
No, what you are really doing here is being sarcastic.
quote:
No, what we see in the NT, Eph 2:20 and 4:11 for instance, tells us that the apostles and prophets along with their revelatory gifts were the foundation of the church. The job God gave them to do (lay the foundation of the church) has been done. Now that stage has been completed, neither of the two groups is needed.
Yes and of course we do not need any interference from the Holy Spirit now as the church has all it needs.
I can only re-iterate what RC wrote above:
As far as miracles and healings being scarce; Christ suffered this same problem;
(Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
And when the Church as a whole does not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit then it seems the same. We just need to believe the Word.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/1/2009 5:24:25 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5089
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Clearly, the continuation of post-apostolic prophecy (and tongues,etc.) in the church would violate the closed finished character of the canon. It would, in fact, exclude a completed canon.
Which canon are you refering to and when was it closed? I only know of one Bible. Unless, you're referring to the RC or EOC Bible which include the Apocrypha? The canon was closed about 95AD when the Book of Revelation was completed.
quote:
And do you consider all the gifts of the Holy Spirit active up until that date? Yes.
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