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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/1/2009 5:27:08 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
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ORIGINAL: solarflare
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I addressed a portion of your post, in fact, your first sentence. That portion where you continue to imply that biblical terms should be defined by secular dictionaries. For some very odd reason, my pointing this out reminds you "of a dog shaking a bone".
Kelman, you have repeatedly ignored much of any post other than what you think you can refute. HUH??? I copy and paste EVERY single statement you make and then reply to it.
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I never said or implied that Biblical terms should be defined by secular dictionaries. And you know that. Nope, I know no such thing. The definition you gave was not something found in Scripture and from the way it reads it was from a secular dictionary. If not, then where's it from?
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It would appear a convenient argument from your perspective if I had actually written such a thing. However, this is what I actually wrote:
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Here is a definition of what the word apostle actually means.
Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel.
A missionary of the early Christian Church.
A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region.
One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation.
A passionate adherent; a strong supporter. I don't know about a "convenient" argument but certainly a honest argument. In what dictionary did you find that definition?
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and in a follow up post I wrote this:
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I see. So the Bible contains its own dictionary as well now which describes every word in it only in a Scriptural sense? The word apostle does not have the narrow narrow definition of being only the 12 or the apostle Paul. Let God call an apostle whom He will...personally, I don't know any nor do I believe that those calling themselves such, necessairly are. Your argument starts to sound like the person that says
"I don't believe in God because I can't see him."
You are simply proving my point over and over. You disagree the Bible is its own dictionary, you've said as much above. I'll bold it for you. If that's not what you meant, then tell us what you do mean. It seems from the above that you'd have no problem going elsewhere to find the meaning of a biblical word...such as apostle.
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What reminds me of a 'dog shaking a bone' is the way you get a hold of a piece of what I have written and shake it repeatedly, no matter how many times I point out that is not what I really said. What have I said that YOU haven't impliciting and explicity stated?
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A dog shakes a bone because often a canine will shake an animal to death and so the dog shakes the bone...part of their behavior...even tho it is not alive. You keep trying to make a point over things I either did not really even write or you twist what I write...such as your statement that I said that all Biblical terms should be defined by secular dictionaries. You are hung up on the word dictionary. Nope, I never said that you stated "all Biblical terms should be defined by secular dictionaries". So, obviously, I'm not the one doing the "twisting".
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A word means what it means period. I am aware that Scripture defines what an apostle is, not by the meaning of the word itself, but by what an apostle does and is according to Scripture. You might have seen that yourself instead of unjustly making the statement that I use secular means other than Scripture to understand same. I've made no "unjust" statements concerning you or your use of a secular dictionary to define apostle. Nor, did I say that YOU use "means other than Scripture to understand same". The following is your statement and my reply to it and clearly I "unjustly" accused you of nothing:
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The question really should be why do you think a word means something in Scripture and something else outside of it? If you do that with one word, where will you draw the line? I draw the line where all lines should be drawn - with Scripture. I can't imagine how anyone could attempt to study the Bible and not search it to see what God means by certain words and phrases. Take, for instance, the words "soul and spirit". Do we go to a dictionary to see how God uses those words?..whatever for? No, we search Scripture to determine His meaning
Soul and spirit was a poor choice since it can still remain unclear what God is saying. A better word would be "horn". In Scripture, we see that it often refers to strength or power not simply the horns on an animal. The same with arm or hand. Now, I haven't consulted a secular dictionary to see how they define these words; but, I have consulted Scripture on the matter.
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When one says he has been "given a word from God", then that one is adding to Scripture. You cannot say that the canon of Scripture is closed and then in the next breath say God has given you additional "words".
So say you. Scripture is plain that the Holy Spirit prophesying through
someone is edifying, exhorting and comforting. That is what is generally meant as a word from God. Yes, and that would be an additional word from God and God's words are inspired and infallible. Are your revelatory words from Him also inspired and infallible?
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But, since you have decided not to believe that, you want the rest of us to govern ourselves accordingly. Of course, I believe that you think the Holy Spirit is "edifying, exhorting and comforting" and, of course, that would be an addition to God's Word....something He has said He will not do.
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You berate me for supposedly using a dictionary as my yardstick for understanding Scripture, which I do not do, but then you would like me to believe that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than what you say He is. Let's put this baby to bed, shall we? Did you or did you not use a secular dictionary to come to a conclusion about how the Bible uses "apostle"? It certainly seems you did since you quoted its definition. Now if that was just some fluke, fine, then let's forget it.
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I draw the line where all lines should be drawn - with Scripture. I can't imagine how anyone could attempt to study the Bible and not search it to see what God means by certain words and phrases. Take, for instance, the words "soul and spirit". Do we go to a dictionary to see how God uses those words?...whatever for? No, we search Scripture to determine His meaning.
No Kelman. You draw the line where you want to and with your own experience. No, I'm afraid you're incorrect. When I wish to know the meaning of a word in Scripture, I search it to see how God uses it. Nothing experiential about it.
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If I experience something, I will hold it up in the light of Scripture. You, will tell me there is no such thing. Experience is very subjective and no way to come to scriptural truth. If we determine what is true because of our "experiences" then our theology will take whatever form experience takes.
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I already covered your erroneous belief that I do not know what proper exegesis of the Scriptures is above. Perhaps you might point that out?
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Since you are arguing in favor of the continuation of the revelatory gifts, I assumed you thought you had some, my apologies.
No, what you are really doing here is being sarcastic. There might be cause for concern since you are unable to discern between sarcasm and a truthful statement.
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No, what we see in the NT, Eph 2:20 and 4:11 for instance, tells us that the apostles and prophets along with their revelatory gifts were the foundation of the church. The job God gave them to do (lay the foundation of the church) has been done. Now that stage has been completed, neither of the two groups is needed.
Yes and of course we do not need any interference from the Holy Spirit now as the church has all it needs. Hmm, and you accuse me of sarcasm? The "revelatory" gifts simply continue to lay the foundation and there is only ONE foundation ever laid "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"
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I can only re-iterate what RC wrote above:
As far as miracles and healings being scarce; Christ suffered this same problem;
(Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
And when the Church as a whole does not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit then it seems the same. We just need to believe the Word.
Yes, let's believe the Word.
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
No, God is clear the signs and wonders performed by Jesus and the Apostles were for that time only because we no longer have apostles who performed these for the purpose of attesting that this Gospel, and they, were from God.
2Cor 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/1/2009 9:40:32 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, God is clear the signs and wonders performed by Jesus and the Apostles were for that time only because we no longer have apostles who performed these for the purpose of attesting that this Gospel, and they, were from God.
Was Paul writing only to the Apostles when he wrote;
(1Co 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
and
(1Co 12:11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The Holy Spirit was addressing;
(1Co 1:2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Seems to be addressing 'All" in every place.
And of course what he is referring that "Every man" can have are the gifts of the Spirit;
(1Co 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
(1Co 12:8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
(1Co 12:9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
(1Co 12:10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
(1Co 12:11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The gifts are definately to be given to folks beyond the scope of "Apostles".
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/1/2009 10:37:34 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
Yes, let's believe the Word.
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
No, God is clear the signs and wonders performed by Jesus and the Apostles were for that time only because we no longer have apostles who performed these for the purpose of attesting that this Gospel, and they, were from God.
2Cor 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
See Kelman...this is the kind of response that I am addressing when I say you do not really respond to what I write. At this point, you are not even addressing the OP which is:
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6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity F8 captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill F9 all things.) 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in F10 the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Did God do away with the prophetic gifting? Or did man?
Your answers are smoke and mirrors. You are not even addressing the response to your posts....now you are talking about asking for signs and wonders. The last thing I posted was this:
I can only re-iterate what RC wrote above:
As far as miracles and healings being scarce; Christ suffered this same problem;
(Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
And when the Church as a whole does not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit then it seems the same. We just need to believe the Word.
Scripture tells us to desire Spiritual gifts and ask for them.
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." I Cor. 14:1
If the gifts were ONLY for the BIBLICAL apostles (as according to you there are no more) then why would Paul be telling the Corinthians to eagerly desire spiritual gifts?
Jesus was addressing unbelievers of asking for signs and wonders...they wanted signs so they could believe. You are improperly informed if you think that applies to those seeking spiritual gifts as Scripture tells us we should EAGERLY desire them. The gifts are for believers.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/1/2009 10:56:07 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
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Experience is very subjective and no way to come to scriptural truth.
I guess we will have to discount the experiences of those folks in the Bible too then, as they had no scripture at the time of the experience to back it up. I guess your experience or lack thereof, of spiritual gifts is also subjective?
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/1/2009 2:04:18 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Of course, I believe that you think the Holy Spirit is "edifying, exhorting and comforting" and, of course, that would be an addition to God's Word....something He has said He will not do.
Woa bubba, careful about saying that God will not do what God plainly says he is doing; Scripture plainly says that prophecy given by the Gift of the Holy Spirit is
(1Co 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
Which is exactly in line with the Scripture in John where we are told that Christ will ask the Father to send another; a consoler. So do you deny that also.
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Yes, and that would be an additional word from God and God's words are inspired and infallible. Are your revelatory words from Him also inspired and infallible?
No it would be nothing in addition to Scriopture, just edifying, encouraging, and consoling from the Holy Spirit through the gift He has given someone to speak.
If someone give a prophecy (encouraging, consoling, exhorting) is it infallible; absolutely not; if you would read Scripture you would see that we are instructed to;
(1Co 14:29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
So since we are instructed to judge, then it is not infallable.
Scripture also says;
(1Co 14:21) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
Very, very sad that some will not listen when the Lord is speaking to us!
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/2/2009 5:20:47 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
No, God is clear the signs and wonders performed by Jesus and the Apostles were for that time only because we no longer have apostles who performed these for the purpose of attesting that this Gospel, and they, were from God.
Was Paul writing only to the Apostles when he wrote;
(1Co 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
and
(1Co 12:11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will[/color]. Nope, Paul wasn't writing to any of the Apostles, he was writing to the church at Corinth.
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The Holy Spirit was addressing;
(1Co 1:2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:[/color]
Seems to be addressing 'All" in every place. He was including the church at Corinth with all in every place who are Christians - all who call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. This letter concerns itself particularly and narrowly with the events occurring at Corinth, although, obviously there is some wider application in certain parts. Paul addressed some very specific topics and problems concerning the Corinthian church alone.
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And of course what he is referring that "Every man" can have are the gifts of the Spirit;
(1Co 12:7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Every man has some gifts of the Spirit - not all.
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(1Co 12:8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; This would apply to the Apostles as we see in 2Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;". Although, this "wisdom" is taught to believers. In addition, we see Christ referred to the Apostles as "wise men" in Mat 23:34 "Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:"
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(1Co 12:9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; God gives all believers faith, although, some more than others but always that which accompanies salvation. As for miraculous healings, we see that only with the Apostles and even then for a short period of time. Paul did not "heal" in a number of instances where it seems apparent he would have had he been able.
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(1Co 12:10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: Yes, of course, there was tongues and prophecy until the NT was finished.
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(1Co 12:11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[/color] None of these verses demand the continuation of the revelatory gifts.
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The gifts are definately to be given to folks beyond the scope of "Apostles". Yes, definitely some gifts extend to all believers today. However, Eph 2:20 clearly and steadfastly associates "prophets and apostles" as the foundational base of the church. This demonstrates their unique, non-perpetual role. We know this for a fact because Eph 3:5 contrasts OT revelation with NT "apostles and prophets" "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;".
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/2/2009 5:24:46 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Yes, let's believe the Word.
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
No, God is clear the signs and wonders performed by Jesus and the Apostles were for that time only because we no longer have apostles who performed these for the purpose of attesting that this Gospel, and they, were from God.
2Cor 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
See Kelman...this is the kind of response that I am addressing when I say you do not really respond to what I write. At this point, you are not even addressing the OP which is: You're correct. I was replying to your post in which you reiterated, in part, "We just need to believe the Word" which, of course, was implying that I do not. What's very odd is that you think it permissible to use the Bible to argue your point but it is not permissible for me to do the same....sorry, it doesn't work that way.
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Your answers are smoke and mirrors. You are not even addressing the response to your posts....now you are talking about asking for signs and wonders. I responded to you with scripture and now you're calling that "smoke and mirrors"? In addition, you neglected to include the other passages, the ones in which Christ declares that at the end times false prophets will arise who perform signs and wonders and in John 4 that unless they see signs and wonders - they will not believe. Too much "smoke and mirrors" for you, I guess.
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The last thing I posted was this:
I can only re-iterate what RC wrote above:
As far as miracles and healings being scarce; Christ suffered this same problem;
(Mat 13:58) And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
And when the Church as a whole does not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit then it seems the same. We just need to believe the Word. Yep, this is the last thing you posted and it was precisely to this that I responded - with scripture.
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Scripture tells us to desire Spiritual gifts and ask for them.
"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy." I Cor. 14:1[/color] With the passing of the last Apostle, the canon is closed which of necessity implies that prophecy(including tongues) has been withdrawn from the church. We cannot have a completed canon and a continued revelation from God.
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If the gifts were ONLY for the BIBLICAL apostles (as according to you there are no more) then why would Paul be telling the Corinthians to eagerly desire spiritual gifts? Because they were legitimate gifts of God before He finished Scripture. However, it is interesting that these gifts were found only at the church in Corinth....a church with many many problems.
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Jesus was addressing unbelievers of asking for signs and wonders...they wanted signs so they could believe. Apparently, there are many who don't believe they have a "real" Gospel unless it's followed by signs and wonders. This is unfortunate because we are told in 1Cor 13:2 that even if they possessed the gift of prophecy, knowledge and faith without love they remain unsaved. So, obviously these gifts are no indication of salvation.
In any event, the passage I used, John 4:48, Christ was addressing a believer at least in the first instance.
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You are improperly informed if you think that applies to those seeking spiritual gifts as Scripture tells us we should EAGERLY desire them. The gifts are for believers. Nope, the revelatory gifts aren't for today, unless God has not closed the canon of Scripture.....but, of course, He has.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/2/2009 5:27:38 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
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Experience is very subjective and no way to come to scriptural truth.
I guess we will have to discount the experiences of those folks in the Bible too then, as they had no scripture at the time of the experience to back it up. I guess your experience or lack thereof, of spiritual gifts is also subjective?
What "folks" do you mean? The NT church always had Scripture. Besides, we "test" our salvation by the Bible - not by our experiences.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/2/2009 5:32:41 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Of course, I believe that you think the Holy Spirit is "edifying, exhorting and comforting" and, of course, that would be an addition to God's Word....something He has said He will not do.
Woa bubba, careful about saying that God will not do what God plainly says he is doing; Scripture plainly says that prophecy given by the Gift of the Holy Spirit is Well, bubba, since this was a reference to continued prophecy in the NT, I have no problem whatsoever in saying: "that would be an addition to God's Word....something He has said He will not do." since this the teaching of Scripture.
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(1Co 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.[/color]
Which is exactly in line with the Scripture in John where we are told that Christ will ask the Father to send another; a consoler. So do you deny that also. Might be a good idea to read John again since no where does Christ mention anything about prophecy.
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Yes, and that would be an additional word from God and God's words are inspired and infallible. Are your revelatory words from Him also inspired and infallible?
No it would be nothing in addition to Scriopture, just edifying, encouraging, and consoling from the Holy Spirit through the gift He has given someone to speak. If it's a "word" from God, it must be an inspired infallible "word" from God and is therefore the Word of God. Since these "words" people think they're getting are neither inspired or infallible, they are not from God.
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If someone give a prophecy (encouraging, consoling, exhorting) is it infallible; absolutely not; if you would read Scripture you would see that we are instructed to; And if you would read Scripture, you would see that ALL prophecies were the inspired word of God and were fulfilled.
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(1Co 14:29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.[/color]
So since we are instructed to judge, then it is not infallable. Oh, if it were from God it must of necessity be inspired and infallible. This verse is referring to judging whether what was prophesied was even from God or from a lying spirit, or one who simply wishes to inflate himself.
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Scripture also says;
(1Co 14:21) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.[/color]
Very, very sad that some will not listen when the Lord is speaking to us! This passage where Paul repeats Isa 2:11 is no help to your position. It is speaking about being held captive and carried away by a people who speak a strange language. It is actually a sign of God's judgment and the destruction of Judah and Israel.
As for what's "very, very sad", it is that God's Holy Word - the Bible - is not good enough for so many. They need something "in addition" to it.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/2/2009 9:30:03 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
As for what's "very, very sad", it is that God's Holy Word - the Bible - is not good enough for so many. They need something "in addition" to it.
It seems that you have great respect for the Bible, I just wonder if you believe that parts of the New Testament should be there.
Prophecy as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is defined not as "New Revelation" as you seen to want to add to Scripture, but;
(1Co 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
I would encourage all to read 1 Corinthians 14 and see what NT prophecy is and the benefits of it. Then read the first couple of verses in 1 Corinthians 1 and see who the epistle was written to; that would be all believers.
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If it's a "word" from God, it must be an inspired infallible "word" from God and is therefore the Word of God. Since these "words" people think they're getting are neither inspired or infallible, they are not from God.
All prophecies are from God, and are infallible, but since these prophecies are given through men, or man might even make one up; Scripture is very plain in how to handle this;
'
(1Co 14:29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Now the problem I have with you postition is that you refuse to let the prophets speak to be judged, and letting the Prophets speak is a command here in the New Testament.
So who are these that give prophecy;
(1Co 14:26) How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
and
(1Co 14:31) For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
Whomever the Spirit places the gift of prophecy on and that would include;
(1Co 12:11) But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He desires.
There is another mandate that has to do with prophecy in the same Chapter;
(1Co 14:39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
So I am assuming that your Church in obedient to Scripture and encourages folks to covet to prophesy and does not forbid the speaking in tongues?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/2/2009 9:54:56 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1524
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
You're correct. I was replying to your post in which you reiterated, in part, "We just need to believe the Word" which, of course, was implying that I do not. What's very odd is that you think it permissible to use the Bible to argue your point but it is not permissible for me to do the same....sorry, it doesn't work that way.
Twinkle twinkle little star, How I wonder what you are.....the Bible is just another book without the Holy Spirit...the Holy Spirit is not just a spirit...He is sent from God and I will not refuse Him or His gifts. I choose to believe what the word of God says and I will not translate any of it into unbelief.
quote:
I responded to you with scripture and now you're calling that "smoke and mirrors"? In addition, you neglected to include the other passages, the ones in which Christ declares that at the end times false prophets will arise who perform signs and wonders and in John 4 that unless they see signs and wonders - they will not believe. Too much "smoke and mirrors" for you, I guess.
False prophets can also be those who insist the Holy Spirit is no longer giving gifts even though the Scriptures clearly say He is. I am not calling you a false prophet; only pointing out the other possibility that most people do not consider. A false gospel can be different things. Denying the power of God would certainly be one example.
quote:
Apparently, there are many who don't believe they have a "real" Gospel unless it's followed by signs and wonders. This is unfortunate because we are told in 1Cor 13:2 that even if they possessed the gift of prophecy, knowledge and faith without love they remain unsaved. So, obviously these gifts are no indication of salvation.
I did not know you thought they were! Are you just realising this now? The New Testament also states that is is blasphemy to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil. I can't imagine it is much kinder to deny Him altogether.
quote:
Nope, the revelatory gifts aren't for today, unless God has not closed the canon of Scripture.....but, of course, He has.
If you don't believe and do not ask...or better yet eagerly desire them...you will not receive them. Kinda works like salvation...if you refuse Jesus and deny Him...you are not saved...if you refuse the Holy Spirit and deny Him....he will not smack you over the head with a gift.
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/3/2009 4:41:31 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
As for what's "very, very sad", it is that God's Holy Word - the Bible - is not good enough for so many. They need something "in addition" to it.
It seems that you have great respect for the Bible, I just wonder if you believe that parts of the New Testament should be there. I could ask the same question of you.
quote:
Prophecy as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is defined not as "New Revelation" as you seen to want to add to Scripture, but;
(1Co 14:3) But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.[/color] Scripture is replete with "edification, and exhortation, and comfort". If you're receiving additional "edification, etc." you're receiving new additional revelation.
quote:
I would encourage all to read 1 Corinthians 14 and see what NT prophecy is and the benefits of it. Then read the first couple of verses in 1 Corinthians 1 and see who the epistle was written to; that would be all believers. I would encourage all to take very seriously the warning of Rev 22:18. And then to search Scripture to see that God tells us the "apostles and prophets" laid the foundation of the church...and they are no longer with us.
quote:
quote:
If it's a "word" from God, it must be an inspired infallible "word" from God and is therefore the Word of God. Since these "words" people think they're getting are neither inspired or infallible, they are not from God.
All prophecies are from God, and are infallible, but since these prophecies are given through men, or man might even make one up; Scripture is very plain in how to handle this;
(1Co 14:29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge[/color].
Now the problem I have with you postition is that you refuse to let the prophets speak to be judged, and letting the Prophets speak is a command here in the New Testament. I've already addressed this. But, in addition these verses are saying that if there is any confusion or any disorder in the assembly is an indication that what is going on did not originate with God - it's a counterfeit, it's a prostitution. Still, this has no bearing on the fact that God is not giving new revelation once He completed Scripture.
quote:
There is another mandate that has to do with prophecy in the same Chapter;
(1Co 14:39) Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.[/color]
So I am assuming that your Church in obedient to Scripture and encourages folks to covet to prophesy and does not forbid the speaking in tongues? Rather, in obedience to God I understand that He has forbidden additional revelation and will not accomodate those who seek to violate His entire Word. When we search Scripture, we find that signs and wonders ceased very early on well before the NT was finished. Already these gifts were something in the past. They were never mentioned in any of Paul's later epistles even when he spoke of spiritual gifts such as in Romans and Ephesians. Apostolic authority had been established, therefore, the revelatory gifts had ceased to have a purpose and so they passed away.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/3/2009 4:44:43 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
You're correct. I was replying to your post in which you reiterated, in part, "We just need to believe the Word" which, of course, was implying that I do not. What's very odd is that you think it permissible to use the Bible to argue your point but it is not permissible for me to do the same....sorry, it doesn't work that way.
Twinkle twinkle little star, How I wonder what you are.....the Bible is just another book without the Holy Spirit...the Holy Spirit is not just a spirit...He is sent from God and I will not refuse Him or His gifts. I choose to believe what the word of God says and I will not translate any of it into unbelief. Mildly interesting but totally unresponsive.
quote:
quote:
I responded to you with scripture and now you're calling that "smoke and mirrors"? In addition, you neglected to include the other passages, the ones in which Christ declares that at the end times false prophets will arise who perform signs and wonders and in John 4 that unless they see signs and wonders - they will not believe. Too much "smoke and mirrors" for you, I guess.
False prophets can also be those who insist the Holy Spirit is no longer giving gifts even though the Scriptures clearly say He is. No, you are quite wrong, Scripture does not clearly say that God is giving continued revelation. On the contrary, God has clearly warned all those who insist on doing so.
quote:
I am not calling you a false prophet; only pointing out the other possibility that most people do not consider. A false gospel can be different things. Denying the power of God would certainly be one example. I agree, a false gospel can contain many different false teachings. However, the fact that God is no longer giving additional revelation once He completed His Word, most certainly is not "denying the power of God". You err greatly if you think the "power of God" in this verse refers to speaking in tongues.
quote:
quote:
Apparently, there are many who don't believe they have a "real" Gospel unless it's followed by signs and wonders. This is unfortunate because we are told in 1Cor 13:2 that even if they possessed the gift of prophecy, knowledge and faith without love they remain unsaved. So, obviously these gifts are no indication of salvation.
I did not know you thought they were! Are you just realising this now? Did I say I thought that?...nope, I did not. The fact is many do think that and therein lies the problem.
quote:
The New Testament also states that is is blasphemy to attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil. I can't imagine it is much kinder to deny Him altogether. Since no one denied the Holy Spirit, you can argue that little strawman with yourself.
quote:
quote:
Nope, the revelatory gifts aren't for today, unless God has not closed the canon of Scripture.....but, of course, He has.
If you don't believe and do not ask...or better yet eagerly desire them...you will not receive them. Kinda works like salvation...if you refuse Jesus and deny Him...you are not saved...if you refuse the Holy Spirit and deny Him....he will not smack you over the head with a gift.
One bad theological tenet after another.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/3/2009 9:00:10 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Scripture is replete with "edification, and exhortation, and comfort". If you're receiving additional "edification, etc." you're receiving new additional revelation.
Well I guess we have came to an impass in our discussion, as you seem to dehy the Ministry of the Holy Spirit as so plainly laid out in Scripture. For you to claim that if the Holy Spirit brings consolation to someone then it cannot be from God is just asinine. Your point that consolation etc. from God would 'HAVE" to be new revelation is just too self defeating to even discuss.
Without the Holy Spirit to teach us the Bible is just another interesting book, and without the Holy Spirit to edify, encourage, exhort, and comfor us; we are just a group of selfproclaimed intellectuals very similiar to clouds without water.
Your contnued denial of the ministry of God the Holy Spirit is more than a little troubling.
Sad.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 6/3/2009 9:12:03 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/3/2009 2:50:03 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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Kelman,
I went back over the thread and noticed that over and over you refer to the "Canon" of Scripture, so which canon and date (Or to what translation)are you referring to that is the complete Word of God for us today.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/4/2009 4:58:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Scripture is replete with "edification, and exhortation, and comfort". If you're receiving additional "edification, etc." you're receiving new additional revelation.
Well I guess we have came to an impass in our discussion, as you seem to dehy the Ministry of the Holy Spirit as so plainly laid out in Scripture. Nope, I only deny your unfortunate ideas of what the ministry of the Holy Spirit is. And since I have many times clearly stated what that ministry is, your statement is simply an untruth. Now that's what is really "sad" - that you feel the need to say that which is patently untrue.
In fact, the following is what I said concering the ministry of the Holy Spirit in post #68 to YOU:
I said:
Yes, God still teaches,[guides, leads, directs, convicts] etc.; but no, God will give no further "revelation" regardless of whether it agrees with what has already been written. And God is to be praised that He has revealed to us that He will not add to His Word. He protects us, if we heed Him, from the confusion and error which surrounds most of the church today."
To which YOU replied the following:
YOU said:
"Kelman, I do bleieve we agree much more than we disagree on this.
I will affirm that the Holy Spirit will not add to what we have in Scripture, but without the Holy Spirit teaching and illuminating those Scriptures to us, bringing the Word alive as it were; Scripture would just simply be a book of words."
And in post #44 I again described the ministry of the Holy Spirit - a ministry you say I deny.
I said:
"While the Holy Spirit is not giving additional divine revelation, He is still working in the world. Believers are given the spiritual gift of saving faith. We are given the gift to “spiritually” heal by proclaiming the Word of God and by prayer. We see this in the Book of James as the elders are called for a physically sick brother. We see, though, that it is spiritual sickness and salvation in view ”And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.” And, of course, we still have those who are especially gifted to be teachers, pastors and evangelists."
Also in post #98 I describe the ministry of the Holy Spirit - a ministry you say I deny.
I said
"The "main" ministry and true miracle of the Holy Spirit is the inward working upon the heart of a sinner to regenerate him - not outward miracles."
Yet again I describe the ministry of the Holy Spirit - a ministry you say I deny.
I said:
"All believers have been given the "gift" of the Holy Spirit (Jn 7:37-39; Acts 2:38; 1Cor 12:13). The church today has all the "ordinary" gifts or offices such as pastors and teachers (Rom. 12:7; Eph. 4:11; I Tim. 3:1-7); ruling elders("governments," I Cor. 12:28; "he who rules," Rom. 12:8) and deacons(Rom. 12:7-8; I Tim. 3:8-13)."
So with any luck you'll cease and desist this obfuscation of my views.
quote:
For you to claim that if the Holy Spirit brings consolation to someone then it cannot be from God is just asinine. The only thing "asinine" is your statement...since I never said that. Ever hear of lying by omission?....seems clear you have.
quote:
Your point that consolation etc. from God would 'HAVE" to be new revelation is just too self defeating to even discuss. Just read your Scripture. If this "consolation" is given in tongues or prophetic utterances then YES it would be new revelation. And frankly, what is truly self-defeating is your inability to see that. The Bible is replete with comfort and consolation.
quote:
Without the Holy Spirit to teach us the Bible is just another interesting book, and without the Holy Spirit to edify, encourage, exhort, and comfor us; we are just a group of selfproclaimed intellectuals very similiar to clouds without water. All of which has nothing to do with God continuing to give additional revelation.
quote:
Your contnued denial of the ministry of God the Holy Spirit is more than a little troubling.
Sad. What I deny, and gratefully so, is your wrong conclusions of what the Holy Spirit's ministry is....and far from it being "sad", through His grace, I find it joyous and God glorifying to rightly divide the Word of God.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/4/2009 5:03:01 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Kelman,
I went back over the thread and noticed that over and over you refer to the "Canon" of Scripture, so which canon and date (Or to what translation)are you referring to that is the complete Word of God for us today.
Thanks
RC
If you actually did what you said, you would have seen my answer in post #125...which was:
"I only know of one Bible. Unless, you're referring to the RC or EOC Bible which include the Apocrypha? The canon was closed about 95AD when the Book of Revelation was completed."
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/4/2009 8:30:47 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
If this "consolation" is given in tongues or prophetic utterances then YES it would be new revelation. And frankly, what is truly self-defeating is your inability to see that. The Bible is replete with comfort and consolation.
I just strongly disagree with this assessement, since Paul spent much time describing the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the NT prophecy of consolation, edifying, and encouragement through believers. And it was never "New Revelation" as you seem so set on saying. So we will just have to disagree on whether the Holy Spirit consoling someone through other Christians is consolation or new revelation.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/4/2009 8:38:43 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6747
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"I only know of one Bible. Unless, you're referring to the RC or EOC Bible which include the Apocrypha? The canon was closed about 95AD when the Book of Revelation was completed."
There were dozens of Epistles around at that time, so which do you consider to be "Real"?
Which authority are you relying on to say which books are real and which ones were not. I have never seen that explained in Scripture?
Are you saying that all were, or just the ones the RC and EOC said were real?
I percieve this to be most important to our discussion since you use the date of the completed Canon to be the time that the Ministry of the Holy Spirit changes. And I would love to see the Scripture that you use for this.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/4/2009 9:46:04 AM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
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ok--- i didn't read all the bickery bits---maybe after some coffee----
BUT kellman--- i mentioned---my friend was raised from the dead--- before he was saved--- he fell off a building---and a co woker raised him
that is a fact.
and all the folks i know who were healed--- were healed.
and God reveals stuff to me--- lots.
stuff about my day--- stuff about the mission---- stuff.
and the cannon is closed.
but i still get stuff from God---philip and the etheopean calls to stand here or go there.
anyhoo--- that is fact, not conjecture---- and the fruit is souls so---it's not the enemy---
folks get healed and raised today--- there is an interview with a raised dead fella----
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNaoDyV-PJ4
no where does the scripture suggest that we are not to do the same----
sorry. you are greatly in err...
have you even ASKED God about any of this?
or would His answer be adding to cannon?
is everything that God says written in the bible?
or even everything that He would say to YOU?
no kellman---He will speak with His kids---and raise the dead and heal backs and reverse cancer and all that---
yikes. i can't believe we are having this discussion....
what signs shall follow we who believe?
and would james have us call for elders to pray----until paul died?
no silly---- we still pray for healing--- God is the same OT/NT today, yesterday and tomorrow---and is no respecter of persons--- so --- will likely hear your prayers as well as He heard peters.....
love!!!!
gibbin
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/5/2009 5:02:37 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
If this "consolation" is given in tongues or prophetic utterances then YES it would be new revelation. And frankly, what is truly self-defeating is your inability to see that. The Bible is replete with comfort and consolation.
I just strongly disagree with this assessement, since Paul spent much time describing the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the NT prophecy of consolation, edifying, and encouragement through believers. And it was never "New Revelation" as you seem so set on saying. So we will just have to disagree on whether the Holy Spirit consoling someone through other Christians is consolation or new revelation. There is no indication that the NT prophecy differred from OT prophecy rather the opposite is true. Therefore, the tongues and prophecy of today is not what is described in Scripture. If, in fact, they are not revelatory, they are misnamed. They are something other than what we find in the NT.
We don't find one single passage in the NT where prophecy or prophesying is anything but the inspiration of direct revelation from God. How is it that the better New Covenant is infused with an inferior form of prophecy?
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/5/2009 5:05:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"I only know of one Bible. Unless, you're referring to the RC or EOC Bible which include the Apocrypha? The canon was closed about 95AD when the Book of Revelation was completed."
There were dozens of Epistles around at that time, so which do you consider to be "Real"? Those that God inlcuded in His Book. What would you consider the "real" epistles?
quote:
Which authority are you relying on to say which books are real and which ones were not. I have never seen that explained in Scripture? Let me check...have I been transported back into a Catholic thread? I'll answer you as I've answered them. By 340 Eusebius chronicles all the books of Scripture which he says have been widely circulated and read. These letters were read and accepted as Scripture and this is exactly how the canon came into being - by the circulation and acceptance of the people of God in the churches.
quote:
Are you saying that all were, or just the ones the RC and EOC said were real? See above.
quote:
I percieve this to be most important to our discussion since you use the date of the completed Canon to be the time that the Ministry of the Holy Spirit changes. And I would love to see the Scripture that you use for this. The book of Rev, which is clearly NT prophecy, brings a curse on any who add to what it has revealed (Rev. 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).
Clearly, as seen from Scripture God works in different ways at different times. This doesn't suggest a "change" in God for He is always immutable. Nor does the fact that the ministry of the Holy Spirit differed from before Pentecost than afterwards reflect upon His immutability. And, neither does the ceasing of His revelatory gifts in the post apostolic church.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/5/2009 5:09:49 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5092
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gibbin
ok--- i didn't read all the bickery bits---maybe after some coffee----
BUT kellman--- i mentioned---my friend was raised from the dead--- before he was saved--- he fell off a building---and a co woker raised him
that is a fact. Nope, let me know when your friend's been dead for four days and then gets raised.
quote:
and all the folks i know who were healed--- were healed.
and God reveals stuff to me--- lots.
stuff about my day--- stuff about the mission---- stuff.
and the cannon is closed. Yep, it is and that's why whatever is being "revealed" to you isn't being "revealed" by God.
quote:
but i still get stuff from God---philip and the etheopean calls to stand here or go there.
anyhoo--- that is fact, not conjecture---- and the fruit is souls so---it's not the enemy---
folks get healed and raised today--- there is an interview with a raised dead fella----
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNaoDyV-PJ4 What?...so, now you're having visions of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch?
quote:
no where does the scripture suggest that we are not to do the same---- By that logic, niether does Scripture suggest that the revelatory gifts are to continue past the LAST APOSTLE.
quote:
sorry. you are greatly in err...
have you even ASKED God about any of this?
or would His answer be adding to cannon? Sure would be if His answer was given in a dream, vision or some kind of "word". But, of course, God would never do that, He would never violate His own commands.
quote:
is everything that God says written in the bible?
or even everything that He would say to YOU? Yep, everything God wants us to know concerning Him and His glorious Son. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
quote:
no kellman---He will speak with His kids---and raise the dead and heal backs and reverse cancer and all that---
We speak to God through prayer and He speaks to us in His Word. Yes, God heals and when ANYone is healed it is by the grace of God. No, God is not growing withered hands, miraculously curing the lepers or raising the dead today....but lots of charlatans are. It's turned into a very lucrative business this "gift of healing". Although, real substantiation of these "miracles" is always sadly lacking.
Jesus healed, and when He did, He was always successful and people were instantaneously cured. He never had failures and neither did the Apostles....can't say the same for the present "healers".
quote:
what signs shall follow we who believe? God tells us, if we rightly understand...drink much poison, do you?
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
quote:
and would james have us call for elders to pray----until paul died? Don't know what Paul's death has to do with anything. In any event, of course, we are to pray for physical healing but more importantly for spiritual healing which is the reference James is making.
quote:
no silly---- we still pray for healing--- God is the same OT/NT today, yesterday and tomorrow---and is no respecter of persons--- so --- will likely hear your prayers as well as He heard peters.....
love!!!! I've never suggested we shouldn't pray for healing, in fact, we should bring all our concerns to God in prayer. The fact that God no longer gives the church revelatory gifts or that of miraculous healing doesn't effect His immutability.
God gave the Apostles these temporary gifts to attest to their authenticity as being sent by God to preach and write Scripture. Once they accomplished their mission, these gifts were no longer needed and we see in Scripture that they simply faded away.
quote:
yikes. i can't believe we are having this discussion.... Yep, you and me both.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/5/2009 8:11:55 AM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
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ok---tim wasn't dead for four days---but he was dead---and now he isn't.
folks get healed--and God still speaks....
if you were a pastor of a church---wouldn't you be on yer face before God all the time for direction?
have you never asked God what to do about a situation that seemed out side of scripture? what school to attend? what to do about aunt bessie's inheritance? etc?
God leads His children on small matters as well as large ones..... sometimes thru dreams---
you never have a dream come true?
you've never met anyone healed by the laying on of hands?
seriously---cite ANYTHING in scripture that suggests these are temporary gifts---two scriptures----if you can.....
i cant think of two....
i can't think of one!
these days i think we all drink a lot more poison than one would suspect---
and the stuff they put in the canned veggies are not great either!
be careful when you bandy about whether a revelation is from God, eh? i think you are bound by some weird tradition, as i can not find any scripture anywhere to support yer supposition---
but like i say--post two if you can---
i've been pretty careful with the "revelations" from God---testing the spirits etc---but above all the fruit is souls get saved--- seems unlikely that the enemy is telling me to speak with a lady simply so i can tell her about Jesus, and then she goes off to pray for herself----
or that tim would be raised from the dead to later enter the ministry---
by the evil forces?
i suppose it is possible---but---the old house devided argument comes to mind----
i think you need to speak to God about this----maybe He will take you to some scripture that i have forgotten about and you can post it---or maybe He will instead take you to scriptures about the gifts---
i dunno kellman---
you haven't really backed up the "temporary gifts" argument with any kind of proof----
meanwhile----we are seeing folks saved nearly every day---and healed on occasion---maybe monthly?
a friend had her sight restored last month----it was pretty dramatic for her.
the "proof" is that she can see---no one asked for money---she can see though...
be careful---and maybe be a bit humbler---- ask God about it----instead of assuming that you KNOW that all these scriptures about the gifts were only til the last apostle died....
even though that is never stated in scripture.....unless you know of one that i hadn't considered....
lemme know....
love!
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