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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/7/2009 3:53:16 PM
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Teaching_The_Way
Posts: 48
Joined: 4/18/2006
From: Teaching The Way Ministries
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True Prophets do not advertise their selves.
They only do as God has commanded them to do.
Just because we have not seen many prophets
that does not mean they do not exsist.
Revelations Talks about the two Olive Trees to which are prophets
and they will be doing as God has commanded them not much longer on
the earth since these are the last days.
Keep The Faith and Believe in Gods Wonders and Miracles
As it is written:
Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
NKJV
God Bless
_____________________________
http://teachingtheway.org/
If our opinions does not line up with
the scriptures, then our opinions are
dead wrong! Gods words are more important
than our opinions!
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/7/2009 5:27:42 PM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
Joined: 5/9/2008
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hi---
i have to say---God did not so far give me the answer to yer querry---
but He took me to this in the tub yesterday---
Job 6:
24Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.
25How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
26Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?
27Yea, ye overwhelm the fatherless, and ye dig a pit for your friend.
28Now therefore be content, look upon me; for it is evident unto you if I lie.
29Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it.
30Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?
i haven't lied---and would fear to-
i don't think God would actually tell anyone the answer to yer little quiz---even if you were an athiest...
but maybe--- i know that He does...
anyhoo--- i don't claim to be krezgin- i'm just saying that i have had
direction from God about various things-
maybe God will give dream guy back there a dream about yer quiz---
but i like that Job chunk---
we are on the same team, eh?
would you honestly want God to answer that challenge with anything other than reproof?
i think that Job chunk is all the answer i'm gonna get on this--
BUT-- i will ask again...
< Message edited by gibbin -- 6/7/2009 5:34:44 PM >
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 4:46:54 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gibbin
hi kellman---
ok-- i re read all the scriptures you posted--- sorry--- they don't seem to indicate that tounges would cease or that the gifts stopped with john or paul----- Thank you for reading them, gibbin. Obviously, I disagree that some of the passages do not indicate that the revelatory gifts will cease. The "revelatory" gifts simply continue to lay the foundation, however, we need to remember that foundations are laid only once: Eph 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;" This verse is a strong indicator that revelatory gifts such as prophecy have stopped with the last Apostle.
Clearly, we see in Jude that apostolic revelation did not extend beyond the apostolic generation, the "foundational days" of the church. This is precisely why Jude in his day could speak of "the faith" - meaning the teaching content of the Christian faith - as now "once for all delivered to the saints" (v. 3).
quote:
or that God wont send you a dream...
( about a two thirds of my dreams come true---weird but true.
i dunno why---
but they do...) I dunno why either.
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but i see why you might think that 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says so---and what was the other---1st peter i think...
scripture makes us perfect so---why would we need other words from God about anything. Yes, God tells us that Scripture is sufficient to make us mature members of the body of Christ. This also is a strong indicator that additional revelation is neither needed or given by God.
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i could believe that God doesn't reveal anything to anyone these days--- i really could--- but He does. You are pitting your experiences against Scripture....and unfortunately your experiences win.
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and i really think that scripture indicates more that the gifts are for today than that they are not.... Then you have not been reading all of Scripture.
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(i don't think i recall God saying that HE wouldn't add to it, btw---just that YOU shouldn't...
i'm just saying... Well, everything God has revealed was revealed through men. When the true Apostles and prophets of God said something was from God, it is, in fact, God revealing, God adding. That's what makes the supposed revelatory gifts of today so totally inferior to that of what we find in Scripture. First, the "prophecies" don't always come true, second, the "tongues" were real languages not the incohent babblings of today and third, apostolic healings were always successful.
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also~
ever read this one?
Deuteronomy 4:2 (King James Version)
2Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you
Yep, I have.
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still---i've read a bunch after that one...
and it is God's word, eh? I don't think you've ever read anyone adding additional commandments to the ones God gave to Moses. That was the point of what God is saying - don't add or take away from the commandments I have given to you. God's not saying there won't be any additional revelation in that verse, although, He is saying there won't be in Rev 22:18.
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anyways~
the Holy Ghost telling uncle buck not to drive to florida on tuesday is NOT adding to the word!!!!! It is if God spoke to him or gave him a dream or vision...which, of course, He didn't.
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it's just God talking to His kids- not big R revelation
but big R relationship-- No, God speaks to us through His Word. The problem is so many don't want to "hear" Him speak that way. It is through His law, His commandments, His statutes, His precepts, iow, through the Bible, that we learn what God wants us to know. Read Psalm 119 to get an idea of the effectiveness of the Bible alone and in its entirety. A little sample....
O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day. 98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. 99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation. 100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
It is Scripture which matures the Christian - not signs and wonders.
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we know that He guides us--- i think we are just arguing about HOW... Psalm 119 tells us how He guides.
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when He leads me to such a place or such a person, it is not additional revelation--- it's just daily walking with Jesus... It would be if it were through dreams, visions or "word". How can you say that these dreams, visions or tongues are not revelatory messages? God is revealing something to you - that makes it revelatory. Now, if it's simply a strong feeling or impression, sure, the Holy Spirit certainly leads people so that God's will is done. Psalm 37:23 "The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way."
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quote:
He will lead you like Philip--serious.
and i'm sorry---i've yet to see scripture that says otherwise...
maybe i'm dense ( He will use the foolish things--and i can be a little obtuse...)
quickly post two that you think are real ringers---that show even me that there are no gifts today--- and i will seriously have to repent and wonder if i am apostate!!! You've already said certain verses "could" make you rethink: "i could believe that God doesn't reveal anything to anyone these days--- i really could--- but He does." but, you won't because some teacher or other, and then subsequently your experiences, has told you other than what Scripture teaches.
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but those that you posted? they are not it.i can see why you think so in 2 tim---but there is so much other scripture -- Equally as much, no actually more Scripture which clearly indicate that the revelatory gifts are not for today. They ceased when the last Apostle died.
quote:
Isaiah 30:21 (King James Version)
21And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
is a nice one--- This isn't talking about an "audible" voice - at all. It's really grasping at straws to use this as some type of support for your position. Rather, we see the Holy Spirit working as a "still small voice" 1Kings 19:12. This is the typical way of God, a "still small voice" as He prompts and persuades not by accommodating those who wish exciting "signs".
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--- i felt like this ceasation type thing was doctrine that you were taught by a denomination,is why i suggested humbly asking God about it--- Nope, just by the leaders of the Protestant Reformation and, of course, Scripture. They rejected the Roman Catholic church as it also came with new revelation. Had they not, perhaps you'd still be paying obeisance to the pope.
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(just because i have never read the bible and come away thinking that all the gifts dried up---it never occurred to me once! seems so old boys club...just sayin') Yep, that "old boy's club" called the Apostles. From AD 58 to 96, when John finished the book of Rev, no miracle is recorded. Miracle gifts like tongues and healing are mentioned only in 1 Cor, an early epistle. Two later epistles, Eph and Rom, both discuss gifts of the Spirit at length—but no mention is made of the miraculous gifts. By that time miracles were already looked on as something in the past (Heb 2:3-4). Apostolic authority and the apostolic message needed no further confirmation. Before the first century ended, the entire NT had been written and was circulating through the churches.
quote:
but i am not totally bull headed---show me where the gifts ceased and i will have to go with it---but there is so much other scripture that suggests otherwise... Actually, the concensus from Scripture is that the miraculous revelatory gifts have indeed ended with the last Apostle.
quote:
the holy ghost helps us pray these days--with groans---yes---but words too-
and God speaks---not in a voice though maybe--- i've heard a voice---twice maybe?
three times that i can recall... That's not what the verse says. It says the Holy Spirit helps us to pray without words. Rom 8:26 "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 4:55:12 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gibbin
oh yeah--also---
cheap talk or not,
bel can see---her eye was healed---
and i was there when we "tested" her vision with the old finger test---
substantiated? you sound like an athiest!
you said yer self that God heals---- why do you get bent out of shape about a lady having sight restored? why is one healing ok and another "unsubstantiated"? Wow, where'd you get that from?....I didn't know substantiated is an atheist word.....go figure.
quote:
give glory to His name!
ask Him for more--
not make a stink face when you hear of one!
cheap talk?
these are testimonies---they cost dear--- Yep, talk is indeed cheap and getting cheaper by the minute. Let bel's opthomologist testify to this "miraculous" healing.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 5:02:56 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What in heaven's name are you talking about?...do you even know? If you have some point, why don't you try making it?
I am asking you why you use Eusebius as your authority as to when the canon of Scripture was complete; since he was an ECF and Eastern Catholic at the time of his writings , I wondered if you were. Why don't you explain what it is precisely you're asking? Is there some actual reason you want to know when the canon was completed? IF that's even your question....who can even tell?
quote:
I ask again to please post the Spriptures that you use to base cessation of the gifts on; as it would be most helpful in trying to understand your position.
And again, I ask you to read over the posts which apparently you somehow managed to miss. If gibbin was able to find them...I'm sure you might be able to, also.
quote:
My point is that the gifts are still operating as given by the Holy Spirit, and you say they are not; so I ask what Scriptures you base that position on? Of course, the revelatory gifts are not for today unless, of course, you insist you're an Apostle...do you?
quote:
If you don't have any Scripture for that opinion; then please just say so? I mean it ain't rocket science that I am asking about. No, indeed, one need not be a rocket scientist to read this thread....so why don't you?
quote:
One Scripture that you said you had not used was 1 Corinthians 13L10 which is the Holy Grail of most cessationist, so I wonder what you do use.
There are aspects of 1Cor 13:10 which could be used; but since there is an abundance of additional scripture, there was no need. Naturally, you aren't aware of all that additional scriptural evidence since you were somehow unable to find the posts in which they were quoted. That's surprising since gibbin had no trouble - the second time around, anyway.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 5:11:26 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Hey, what's with you guys? I've posted any number of scriptural passages so don't say I haven't. You obviously don't have to agree but don't say that I didn't give support for my position - that simply is not true.
Why not actually try to engage in debate instead of just ignoring the passages and then saying nothing's been offered? This is exactly the same tactic used concerning my explanation of the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Really, the way it's going just proves the paucity of your argument and the inability to defend it
The problem is that you either do not believe the Scripture 'offered' to you or put another slant on what it is actually saying. Now, you say we are using 'tactics'....I could say the same: No, the "problem" is that no one is capable of discussing the passages I offered. And no, I have not used the same "tactic" since I've never said that support for your position has not been offered - as has untruthfully been said of me.
quote:
quote:
Really, the way it's going just proves the paucity of your argument and the inability to defend it
about you. Yep, very typical, exactly the level of unintelligible support for your position that's been offered on this thread.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 8:14:46 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6344
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
...Believers are supposed to believe!...
BUT, we are told to test what we're told. Paul wrote quite a bit about foolish believers accepting heresies and deceptions. But it is obvious that many are willing to accept anything and everything if it's done in religious language. So few seemed to have leaned anything from the likes of Jim Bakker, Jim Jones, and David Koresh.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 8:32:03 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6344
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
I don't know what you believe.....and I have no idea why you think whatever year that belief occurred substantiates an authority you appear to think you have over me...
I do not claim any authority over you but you and gibbin seem to doubt the salvation or maturity of anyone that doesn't agree with you.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 8:56:53 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6723
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I am asking you why you use Eusebius as your authority as to when the canon of Scripture was complete; since he was an ECF and Eastern Catholic at the time of his writings , I wondered if you were. Why don't you explain what it is precisely you're asking? Is there some actual reason you want to know when the canon was completed? IF that's even your question....who can even tell?
It isn't difficult, but I will try again; Your wrap your theory aboud the completion of Canon. You also say that Scripture is what you base everything on; so what date are you using for the Holy Spirit's ministry to change, and what Scripture gives you that date. The date is important because for the Holy Spirit to stop doing what He was sent to do is an astounding event, and there must be some revelence to that date.
That is about six time I have ask this, please either answer it or admit that there is nothing to support you theory with the exception of none Scriptural additions such as Eusebius.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 12:54:51 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
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quote:
I do not claim any authority over you but you and gibbin seem to doubt the salvation or maturity of anyone that doesn't agree with you.
I genuinely do not know where you have the impression that I would doubt the salvation or maturity of someone that does not agree with me.
Please point out to me in which post I give that impression....I do not want to give that impression.
Scripture makes it plain that salvation is repenting and turning from your sins and accepting that Jesus died for you so that you would have forgiveness before God (generic you).....
It is my experience that people who do not believe the gifts are for today will state that those who do believe they are for today, also think you must speak in tongues or what have you to be saved. I don't believe that and I know I did not post that.
As for the other matter, read my post.
Thanks
< Message edited by solarflare -- 6/8/2009 1:01:45 PM >
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 1:01:03 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
BUT, we are told to test what we're told. Paul wrote quite a bit about foolish believers accepting heresies and deceptions. But it is obvious that many are willing to accept anything and everything if it's done in religious language. So few seemed to have leaned anything from the likes of Jim Bakker, Jim Jones, and David Koresh.
Did you think I was referring to believing deception? That's too funny!
If you read the post, I covered that :
quote:
Believers are supposed to believe! Why are some so afraid of every good and perfect gift from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. (James 1:17)
We are supposed to exercise discernment and test the spirits. To say there are counterfeits is true but not a good reason to be fearful of what is true. After all, Jesus Himself said there are many false Christs gone out into the world.......so, shall we stop believing in Him because of the false ones?
So, why do you leave out the part where I mentionned that there are counterfeits and that we must use discernment and test the spirits? that is hardly fair to leave out most of what I posted about believing so that you can make a point that does not exist because I am obviously aware of it. If you want to discuss, then please let's do so. But don't take excerpts from my post and try to put a different slant on what I really said.
I'm just not going to respond unless you do so in honesty. And I am not going to argue. I don't agree with Kelman....but he is thorough and I think honest in what he writes...
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/8/2009 3:55:09 PM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
Joined: 5/9/2008
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hi chuch~
i'll try to keep it short--
kellman, i didn't have trouble finding he scripture posted, just trouble finding a hint that the gifts have ceased.
this will possibly get yer ire up, but i think that you are basing things on a very few scriptures that could point to your view.
you say the bible clearly teaches this---i must disagree.
actually i would disagree that the bible "clearly" taught the trinity. i can point out some nice ones, but i would not say that it is "clearly" taught.
i could imagine God not speaking after revelation because He was silent for those 400 years between the testaments, not because 2 tim made me think so--- i see much more evidence to the contrary in scripture, not my experience. i am able and willing to lay my experiences down.
though this morning He took me to "my sheep hear my voice."
and--- i think that He can use a voice if He likes.and apparEntly still uses dreams as we see in that lovely post from our gardening brother.
i also disagree that words of knowledge and wisdom were used only for laying the foundation of the church--- and tongues for that matter-- -
tongues is s'posed to edify yerself too, eh?
modern tongues as gobeldy gook?
nope.
a friend's wife was praying with a group of ladies over some gal, and a woman kept saying to her "but it IS the time!" because she was praying "in Your time oh Lord" in german. not gobbeldy gook, but fluent german.
now---hebrews 13 says through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will
so we can see that there are other things that make us perfect as well- not just the scriptures.
the whole council of the bible is what is needed---and it seems to support the idea the the gifts are still in use---not "clearly" teaching that they are not.
also-- mr-Eutychus, i never doubted anyone's salvation, ever.
i just said you SOUNDED like an athiest---i know yer not---
oh yeah--- uh--- i think it would be bel's nurosurgeon who will be most dumbfounded by her sight--- but whatever--- you don't wanna believe--what can i do? cry a little i suppose, and move on.
anyhoo--- take it to God---and maybe re read yer own posts--- of the 30 some scripts that you posted only two seem to come close to supporting your assertion...
which i guess is what i asked for--
so
uh----
nope!
i think yer reading of those scriptures is a little off-- we know that God has provided more than just His word for our perfection as other scripture indicated---
hooray!!!!!
love!!!!!
gib<><
< Message edited by gibbin -- 6/8/2009 4:30:47 PM >
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/9/2009 4:45:13 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
I am asking you why you use Eusebius as your authority as to when the canon of Scripture was complete; since he was an ECF and Eastern Catholic at the time of his writings , I wondered if you were. Why don't you explain what it is precisely you're asking? Is there some actual reason you want to know when the canon was completed? IF that's even your question....who can even tell?
It isn't difficult, but I will try again; Your wrap your theory aboud the completion of Canon. You also say that Scripture is what you base everything on; so what date are you using for the Holy Spirit's ministry to change, and what Scripture gives you that date. The date is important because for the Holy Spirit to stop doing what He was sent to do is an astounding event, and there must be some revelence to that date.
That is about six time I have ask this, please either answer it or admit that there is nothing to support you theory with the exception of none Scriptural additions such as Eusebius. I told you the first time you asked this silly question. The canon of Scripture was completed when John wrote the last book - the Book of Revelation. And according to most informed sources that occurred about 95AD. That the date comes from sources other than the Bible is irrelevant since we know that the Book of Revelation is the last book of the Bible unless, of course, you wish to refute that...do you?
quote:
The date is important because for the Holy Spirit to stop doing what He was sent to do is an astounding event, and there must be some revelence to that date. The Holy Spirit wasn't sent to perform the parlor tricks seen in today's churches.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/9/2009 4:57:24 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gibbin
hi chuch~
i'll try to keep it short--
kellman, i didn't have trouble finding he scripture posted, just trouble finding a hint that the gifts have ceased.
this will possibly get yer ire up, but i think that you are basing things on a very few scriptures that could point to your view. Nope, doesn't get my "ire" up one little bit since only God can open eyes and hearts.
quote:
you say the bible clearly teaches this---i must disagree.
actually i would disagree that the bible "clearly" taught the trinity. i can point out some nice ones, but i would not say that it is "clearly" taught. Now I can understand how you see, or actually don't see Scripture. There is abundant evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. I suppose it's not a coincidence you can't see God describing Himself in three Persons nor can you see God describing the cessation of the revelatory gifts which, of course, were perfectly legitimate gifts of the Spirit before God completed His Book.
quote:
i could imagine God not speaking after revelation because He was silent for those 400 years between the testaments, not because 2 tim made me think so--- i see much more evidence to the contrary in scripture, not my experience. i am able and willing to lay my experiences down.
though this morning He took me to "my sheep hear my voice." Actually, all you see in Scripture is the description of certain events in one church which took place very early on - and NEVER seen again. Extraordinarily bad method of reaching a conclusion.
quote:
and--- i think that He can use a voice if He likes.and apparEntly still uses dreams as we see in that lovely post from our gardening brother. Theology is not built upon people's "experiences". I mean obviously it is but it shouldn't be.
quote:
i also disagree that words of knowledge and wisdom were used only for laying the foundation of the church--- and tongues for that matter-- - Scripture doesn't even describe how these gifts were manifested so any one claiming to have them today has simply invented their "gift".
quote:
tongues is s'posed to edify yerself too, eh?
modern tongues as gobeldy gook?
nope. Sure is "gobeldy gook" and nonsense. The only tongues described in Scripture is that of literal other languages. Today all you have is incohent babblings.
quote:
a friend's wife was praying with a group of ladies over some gal, and a woman kept saying to her "but it IS the time!" because she was praying "in Your time oh Lord" in german. not gobbeldy gook, but fluent german. Five words does not make for "fluent" speaking of another language. I know phrases in many languages as do most people.
quote:
now---hebrews 13 says through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will
so we can see that there are other things that make us perfect as well- not just the scriptures.
the whole council of the bible is what is needed---and it seems to support the idea the the gifts are still in use---not "clearly" teaching that they are not. No, Heb 13 is not saying that through the "blood of the everlasting covenant" we are made perfect....read it again.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/9/2009 9:35:42 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6723
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The Holy Spirit wasn't sent to perform the parlor tricks seen in today's churches.
Now that is something we can agree on. There is a lot of phoney baloney nonsense in the name of our Faith that goes on out there. And that is sad.
And it was to be expected which is probably the Holy Soirit had Paul to write this;
(1Co 14:29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
The Holy Spirit evidently knew that their would be some who would give a prophecy that would not be from God; so He told us all to judge those prophecies.
The correction of the misuse of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit was the reason for the entire fourteeneth chapter of the Book of First Corinthians and that chapter of instructions closes with this;
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
So according to our Holy Scriptures we are to not forbid the speaking in tongues, we are to covet to prophesy, and we are to do all things decently and in order.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/9/2009 12:01:41 PM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
Joined: 5/9/2008
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hi kelman
i'm glad yer ire is not riled by these discussions--
sorry-- i forgot you cant read my mind---
i mentioned the trinity thing because i've had folks set up arguments against it by stringing a few scriptures together and then "extrapolating" what they think others mean.
it would have been "clearly" taught if God had said "behold isreal, the Lord your God is Three!!!" but---He didn't---so i have patience with folks who are wrong (haha)---listen to their arguments and then discuss it--- i suppose i could see why they think that---or i find out why, anyways....
yer arguments remind me of the anti trinitarians in a way, because you string a few scriptures and then kinda jump to the ceasation veiw as "clearly" taught.
i still dont see it as "clearly".
or even really taught---or mentioned.
i re read the hebrews scripture---in case i had mistaken it--- i don't think i did---let's look...
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever.
are we then to read it as God raised Jesus through the blood? no obviously..
or He is the shepard through the blood? (possibly...)
or were made perfect through the blood?
you may be correct--- i t may be that He is shepard through the blood---but it seems more the other---i'll keep reading it---
BUT i was made perfect through that blood, eh?
cuz many have read the book and not accepted the sacrifice--it's the blood that atoned for me---
though i am washed in the word.
abraham was told to be perfect and walk before God--- OT perfect might be a different matter-- i dunno---
it seems that it is not only the scripture that does it--- we have the Ghost, which i know you are not refuting---we have the Word and the word---Jesus is the Word, the bible is the word, but Jesus is not the bible---if you follow me...
i think that the 2 tim script is not actually proof that the gifts have ceased, if we are made also perfect by the blood---or if all the OT perfects mean the same as the NT perfects...
five words in german when praying in tounges is pretty swell---
yeah folks know a phrase or two in a language but when you pray in tongues it's not like that--it just flows--- i can pray it faster out loud than i can think it--- there are other acounts of people praising in earthly languages that
they did not know---even in my hometown---
and angelic language? who could pretend to know how it might sound?
she wasn't just pulling a phrase out of her head if she was praying in tongues,
i suppose you could call it her subconscious IF she knew any german. but that's a stretch.
in your time oh Lord is not the common please and thanx phrases that one learns---i think yer kinda grasping there, sorry.
i understand yer just dismissing stuff because you really think it is contrary to biblical teaching---
i respect that--- it is just that you are wrong! [:D
"since only God can open eyes and hearts" ask God about this--- even though you think it folly----ask Him.
because the gifts are not fully described in scripture, someone is inventing a gift?
yikes! not the best logic ---you have a few of these "jumps"---(which is why i'm reminded of the no trinity folks...)
i would fear the living God to "invent" a gift.
also--who could "invent" a word of knowlege?
you could fake it with hidden mikes which some have done--- but invent it?
it sounds like solar has had these kinds of things happen-- i don't think s/he was using mikes and you wanna ask God before you just dismiss it as demonic---serious...
i hope you prayerfully consider yer replies and don't just go with what you think you know--- but i think you might just answer off the cuff because you are smart and know scripture well.
i try to prayerfully consider anything that does not line up with my view, but is potentially scriptural--- like yer argument for example--- i will continue to ask God about it--- it is a very different view than i consider scripturally sound-- but i will pray---
how far down the history did they pen "despise not prophecy"?
i dunno---yer view is possibly less "clearly" taught than you think... and seems to have some jumps that are a little klunky--- i don't think paul wrote to desire the best gifts just until he dies...
we don't really know what happened to folks like prisilla--or rather, i don't...
there may well be that there are no records of healings after the folks went home---
i kinda always thought it was the preversion of the church post constantine that messed it all up---
but hey---i might be wrong----
except the fruit of the gifts--- healings---prophecy--- exortation---
i know that you don't think that bel was healed---but she was---
and whatever God tells me comes to pass--- always.
greater things we are to do? or just the 12?
those that beleive are to cast out devils---only the 12?
or also you?
maybe i take the book too literally and so i have these things happen---
jot me a note!
LOVE!!!
< Message edited by gibbin -- 6/9/2009 12:25:52 PM >
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/9/2009 12:08:58 PM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
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great post mr james!
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/10/2009 3:03:09 AM
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rawr.ben
Posts: 2728
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Sure is "gobeldy gook" and nonsense. The only tongues described in Scripture is that of literal other languages. Today all you have is incohent babblings.
There are roughly 6,500 spoken languages active in the world today.
About 2,000 of them are spoken by fewer than 1,000.
I assume you know all 6,500, or at least 4,500 of them to say that "all you have is incoherent babble" instead of an actual literal language.
_____________________________
rawr.ben
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/10/2009 5:10:29 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gibbin
yer arguments remind me of the anti trinitarians in a way, because you string a few scriptures and then kinda jump to the ceasation veiw as "clearly" taught.
i still dont see it as "clearly".
or even really taught---or mentioned. Nope, only doing what God has said to do compare spiritual with spiritual, scripture with scripture. You, otoh, actually do take a few passages and disregard other passages which may impinge upon your theology.
quote:
i re read the hebrews scripture---in case i had mistaken it--- i don't think i did---let's look...
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever.
are we then to read it as God raised Jesus through the blood? no obviously..
or He is the shepard through the blood? (possibly...) Yes, Jesus became the "great shepherd" by reason of His atonement, through the shedding of His blood. We see this in John 10:11 " the good Shepherd, who, lays down his life for the sheep."
quote:
BUT i was made perfect through that blood, eh? You're right, believers are made "perfect" by the redeeming sacrifice of Christ.
quote:
cuz many have read the book and not accepted the sacrifice--it's the blood that atoned for me---
though i am washed in the word.
abraham was told to be perfect and walk before God--- OT perfect might be a different matter-- i dunno---
it seems that it is not only the scripture that does it--- we have the Ghost, which i know you are not refuting---we have the Word and the word---Jesus is the Word, the bible is the word, but Jesus is not the bible---if you follow me... That is the ministry of the Holy Spirit, at least a part of it - to apply the Word of God to our hearts. To open blinded eyes, closed ears and unbelieving hearts. To regenerated dead souls into spiritually alive souls in Christ.
quote:
i think that the 2 tim script is not actually proof that the gifts have ceased, if we are made also perfect by the blood---or if all the OT perfects mean the same as the NT perfects... Perhaps not "proof" but certainly very strong evidence since it tells us that Scripture is what perfects the man of God - not signs and wonders.
quote:
five words in german when praying in tounges is pretty swell---
yeah folks know a phrase or two in a language but when you pray in tongues it's not like that--it just flows--- i can pray it faster out loud than i can think it--- there are other acounts of people praising in earthly languages that
they did not know---even in my hometown---
and angelic language? who could pretend to know how it might sound? The only language we know of that the angels spoke were human languages. Paul here is simply using hyperbole.
quote:
"since only God can open eyes and hearts" ask God about this--- even though you think it folly----ask Him. Not only "folly" but unscriptual. God forbid that I would ask for something which God has declared He will not do.
quote:
because the gifts are not fully described in scripture, someone is inventing a gift? What would you call it? People say they have this gift of whatever and yet this gift is never described in Scripture. It's really kind of silly to say you have this "gift"...yet, it's a gift that's never even been described. People just made stuff up and called it a "gift".
quote:
yikes! not the best logic ---you have a few of these "jumps"---(which is why i'm reminded of the no trinity folks...) Nope, no "jumps" just common sense. How can you know you have a gift that's never even been described?....you can't.
quote:
i would fear the living God to "invent" a gift.
also--who could "invent" a word of knowlege?
you could fake it with hidden mikes which some have done--- but invent it? Plenty of people have claimed to "know" things...some of whom surely have nothing to do with God.
quote:
it sounds like solar has had these kinds of things happen-- i don't think s/he was using mikes and you wanna ask God before you just dismiss it as demonic---serious... If there is, in fact, a supernatural component it's not from God. He will not violate His own rules. God tells us in Rev 22:18 that there will not be more revelations from Him, no more visions, no more angels visitations, no more dreams, no more voices and no more messages in tongues. If we want to know the will of God, we read the Bible - the whole Bible.
quote:
i hope you prayerfully consider yer replies and don't just go with what you think you know--- but i think you might just answer off the cuff because you are smart and know scripture well. I'm not simply answering "off the cuff". I've provided Scripture which demonstrates that the signs and wonders done by the Apostles are no longer being done today. We should never forget and take seriousely that signs and wonders, in the end times, are associated with Satan. Nor should we forgot the words of Christ: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"(Mat 7:21-22).
Christ also warned, "false Christ, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders. . ." (Mat 24:24). Servants of Satan would be able to display "power, and signs and lying wonders" (2Thes 2:9). The Apostle Paul explained that we should not be astonished that such false teachers would appear, "for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" ( Cor 11:14).
quote:
i try to prayerfully consider anything that does not line up with my view, but is potentially scriptural--- like yer argument for example--- i will continue to ask God about it--- it is a very different view than i consider scripturally sound-- but i will pray--- I agree, it's always good to keep an open mind and to investigate alternate understandings of our closely held beliefs....hard to do but always worthwhile.
quote:
how far down the history did they pen "despise not prophecy"?
i dunno---yer view is possibly less "clearly" taught than you think... and seems to have some jumps that are a little klunky--- i don't think paul wrote to desire the best gifts just until he dies... Nope, not until Paul died, but until God completed His revelation by the hand of John.
quote:
we don't really know what happened to folks like prisilla--or rather, i don't...
there may well be that there are no records of healings after the folks went home---
i kinda always thought it was the preversion of the church post constantine that messed it all up---
but hey---i might be wrong---- No, signs and wonders stoped even as the Bible was being completed. We don't read of any "miracles" past Acts 28.
quote:
except the fruit of the gifts--- healings---prophecy--- exortation---
i know that you don't think that bel was healed---but she was---
and whatever God tells me comes to pass--- always. Better to have the fruit of the Spirit which actually is for today.
quote:
greater things we are to do? or just the 12?
those that beleive are to cast out devils---only the 12?
or also you?
maybe i take the book too literally and so i have these things happen--- Just the Twelve as Paul says in Heb 2:4 "God also bearing them witness with signs and wonders, and divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost"
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/10/2009 8:18:29 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6723
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Sure is "gobeldy gook" and nonsense. The only tongues described in Scripture is that of literal other languages. Today all you have is incohent babblings.
you err in this statement Kelman, Scripture says;
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
"Speaks mysteries", "no man understandath him"; that is not in another literal language.
Please note this passage concerning the Gifts of tongues;
(1Co 12:10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
"Divers kinds of tongues" differnent types of tongues; and you claim only one kind, as I said you err in this.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/11/2009 12:39:01 AM
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gibbin
Posts: 72
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
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ok--now instead of "benifit of the doubt" listenings--- i just wanna say-
The Lord put a very very specific message on Wilkerson's heart for the city that i live in--- it was a strong rebuke--- it was heavy.
the church pretty much disregarded it--- they didn't like the way that He said it.
this is HEARTBREAKING----
and then to have folks go on to say---yeah well---God's done all the talking that He is ever gonna do--- bound in 66 books---so whatever---don't fret---He isn't mad at the church--keep playing church and anyone who says otherwise is a heretic--- is tragic.
the message was real---
the healings that bonke sees are real
sorry if it bashes yer theology---but to say that it is counter to scripture is a stretch--- i have to bend over backwards to see where the ceasationists are coming from---scripturally anyways---
shudder...
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/12/2009 3:17:43 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Sure is "gobeldy gook" and nonsense. The only tongues described in Scripture is that of literal other languages. Today all you have is incohent babblings.
you err in this statement Kelman, Scripture says;
(1Co 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
"Speaks mysteries", "no man understandath him"; that is not in another literal language. No, that is actually just your presuppositions speaking. Let's let Scripture speak instead. To "speak mysteries" means to speak forth the revelations of God - the Gospel...see Rom 11:25; Rom 16:25; 1Cor 2:7; 1Cor 4:11; Eph 1:9; Eph 3:3-4; Eph 5:32 and Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,"
"This term 'mysterion' in the NT has a very specific meaning which inherently includes the idea of the communication of divine revelation." (Robertson, p. 23)
quote:
Please note this passage concerning the Gifts of tongues;
(1Co 12:10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
"Divers kinds of tongues" differnent types of tongues; and you claim only one kind, as I said you err in this. Again, your presuppositions are speaking. The only type of "divers" tongues we know for a fact is that which is evidenced in Acts 2:4. And, those "tongues" were foreign languages.
_____________________________
beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/12/2009 9:49:56 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6723
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
your presuppositions are speaking. The only type of "divers" tongues we know for a fact is that which is evidenced in Acts 2:4. And, those "tongues" were foreign languages.
And you just totally dismiss the plurality of the Gifts of tongues as when Paul speakes directly to praying and singing in tongues as well as prophesying in tongues?
(1Co 14:14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
(1Co 14:15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
(1Co 14:16) Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
Sad that many folks will just discard Scripture because it does not line up with their little pet theories.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Not for anything no disrespect intended - 6/12/2009 9:57:07 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1522
Joined: 6/16/2008
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