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Could the existance of an alien species disprove God and the Bible?
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Could the existance of an alien species disprove God an... - 4/16/2009 1:47:01 AM
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Zach2008
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I am not saying I believe in any extraterrestrial life, but I thought about this question for some time after playing Mass Effect(a video game). The game does make references to interventionary evolution, but it does not cleary support it. And there are some theist characters in the game which were probably placed in the game so that people would not suspect Bioware(the game's developer) of promoting atheism. Although it mentions Darwinian evolution, I doubt the game itself is an atheistic attack on Christianity.
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/16/2009 1:56:30 AM
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Jhud
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Well the existence of alien life itself wouldn't do that. Interestingly, if it were intelligent life, and had some sort of idea of God, it would seem to add credence to God's existence; conversely, if there existed some tangeble proof on another world that life could arise through wholly natural means, it might promote the notion of naturalism.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/16/2009 12:09:30 PM
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PolarBear
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It might weaken select science apologetics arguments, but would not overturn the fact that the overwhelming tide of evidence supports belief in God.
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Tip of the day: "You" has three letters, not one. It is spelled Y-O-U.
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/16/2009 4:31:11 PM
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GHitch
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Absolutely not.
1. You end up with even more origins to explain than our own.
2. A creationist view would still apply
3. An or IDist view would still apply
4. Darwinism would have even more impossibly challenging difficulties to explain if those life forms turned out to be DNA-based
Indeed, many pre technology and information era Christian leaders thought it would be no surprise if God created many other life forms elsewhere in the universe.
The great Christian author and philosopher C.S. Lewis implies the probability of such, as well as the probability of other universes, in his fictional writings - The Chronicles of Narnia and the Cosmic Trilogy.
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/16/2009 11:25:26 PM
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yzf-r1
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If aliens were found, it would not fit my understanding of scripture. God's purpose for this age is human redemption, and everything revolves around that purpose. At the end of the age, based on what happens HERE, not somewhere else, in accordance with God's plan and purpose for MAN, the universe and all that is in it will be uncreated, and a new heavens and new earth will be created. If there are "aliens" in distant worlds, they will be incinerated. is God done creating? Not by a long shot. This age of 6,000 years of sin and death and 1,000 years of "rest" is a flimsy page in an infinite volume.
So, I'm confident aliens do not exist (that is, physical aliens, not supernatural beings). Those who say "ETs" must be "out there somewhere" because of "statistics" are assuming (based on a darwinist paradigm) that life can arise by chance, but it doesn't.
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 2:56:48 PM
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GHitch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yzf-r1
If aliens were found, it would not fit my understanding of scripture. Scripture was written for man, not necessarily for life elsewhere if there is any.
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God's purpose for this age is human redemption, and everything revolves around that purpose. Yes, for mankind and possibly far more. But we don't really know that from scripture except by inference and that inference may be wrong. In God's mind everything revolves around his Son for this age. Not man. After the destruction of death it will all be given over to the father.
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At the end of the age, based on what happens HERE, not somewhere else, in accordance with God's plan and purpose for MAN, Man is not the center of the universe - that's just our ego trip problem and pride.
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the universe and all that is in it will be uncreated, and a new heavens and new earth will be created. If there are "aliens" in distant worlds, they will be incinerated. If there were any aliens we would have to assume that they too are part his plans and have a part in the whole. So they would no more be simply destroyed than us.
The universe is a big place. We know nothing of God's plan for the rest of the universe except for the end and new beginning.
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So, I'm confident aliens do not exist (that is, physical aliens, not supernatural beings) I wouldn't be too confident in that; we simply are not told and do not know.
One can reason it is probable but one can't know. "what is that to you? come follow me yourself" Jn 21, applies well here. As CS Lewis says (by Aslan in Narnia - roughly) "we are not told others' stories, just our own".
Earth is but a mathematical point on the universal scale and there could be many other universes that God created. We just don't know. And why would he tell us such in scripture? That collection of books was written entirely for the sake of man's knowledge of his own origins, rebellion, redemption and destiny.
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Those who say "ETs" must be "out there somewhere" because of "statistics" are assuming (based on a darwinist paradigm) that life can arise by chance, but it doesn't. Well yes but not necessarily - the other view is that God, being infinite and displaying a fathomless array of love for making things, simply made life elsewhere and not just on earth. There will never be an end of his creativity and works.
Like I said, some of the old preachers believed that - Spurgeon, Finney... and we may well assume that if they believed such and stated it, then many Christians of there era must have thought the same.
Some of the ancient Jewish rabbis also believed that this age is one of many cycles in God's infinite creativity and ultimate plans.
Whatever... I see no conflict between scripture and the existence of other life elsewhere at all.
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 3:19:37 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
quote:
ORIGINAL: yzf-r1
Whatever... I see no conflict between scripture and the existence of other life elsewhere at all.
I feel the same. I was asked on Easter would I lose faith if aliens turned out to be real. I told them I wouldn't. For reasons you stated.
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 3:58:02 PM
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yzf-r1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Whatever... I see no conflict between scripture and the existence of other life elsewhere at all.
Is there more than one Redeemer? Father, Sons, and Spirits for "aliens" now, too? Was not man created in the image of God? Is the Trinity in fact a collection of thousands? Does God take on the form of aliens, too?
All nonsense to me.
God is not done creating, there will be more generations to come, possibly other supernatural beings, who knows, but right here, right now, I believe the focus is God's plan for human redemption, and human redemption alone. That isn't "ego-centric" at all, it's all for God's ultimate glory, whatever He does, and I'm well aware man is a spec in a vast cosmic black, and yet "what is man that You are mindful of him?". God is just that powerful. This universe we all marvel at will be "rolled up like a scroll". It's nothing to God. A flimsy page in the Book of Eternity.
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 4:41:15 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Well the existence of alien life itself wouldn't do that. Interestingly, if it were intelligent life, and had some sort of idea of God, it would seem to add credence to God's existence; conversely, if there existed some tangeble proof on another world that life could arise through wholly natural means, it might promote the notion of naturalism.
I don't think it would lead to naturalism. Us mainline protestants hedged our bets 40 years ago and said that geological history wasn't directly influenced by God, but the processes that influenced it probably were. Evolution produces a few bad things, but it also leads to a world where immoral behavior *eventually* destroys itself.
The fact that God didn't scoop up some dirt and form it into a human being at the same time he was creating Lucy's bones and burying them doesn't mean he didn't create us. It just means that he humbly kept it as an arm's length transaction- perhaps signalling that us humans had already eaten the fruit from the tree before evolution had "created" us.
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 5:27:04 PM
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yzf-r1
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"Lucy" was a chimp, just fyi
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 5:52:36 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yzf-r1
"Lucy" was a chimp, just fyi
True, but God was also creating neanderthal bones and bones of other homanids. I'm sure these can *somehow* be all explained away by some; my view is that Occam's razor seems to indicate there were probably species between humans and apes at some point in the past.
In any case, the possibility of independent life on other planets doesn't necessarily lead all the way to what many claim are the philosophical conclusions of darwinism. Darwin remained a Christian, FWIW.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 4/17/2009 6:02:04 PM >
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 6:21:21 PM
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yzf-r1
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?
Human and chimp bones were rapidly encapsulated in the global destruction of the Flood of Noah's Day. There is, in fact, no case of any "intermediate" between ape/chimp and man.
Darwin was not a Christian when he died, by all accounts
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 9:06:38 PM
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GHitch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yzf-r1
Is there more than one Redeemer? No, so what's your point? Christs sacrifice is more than sufficient for all mankind. What would it have to do with aliens?
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Father, Sons, and Spirits for "aliens" now, too? Huh?? Are you suggesting that the existence of life elsewhere implies that more than one God is needed?
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Was not man created in the image of God? And...?
Dogs weren't, bugs weren't and angels weren't so maybe if God created some life elsewhere nothing actually changes from what is already.
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Is the Trinity in fact a collection of thousands? Does God take on the form of aliens, too? Duh? I'm sorry but you're off on a tangent that makes no sense to me. The answer to that last part is that no, only one redeemer is needed with only one atonement.
What would the existence of life elsewhere have to do with your questions?
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God is not done creating, there will be more generations to come, possibly other supernatural beings, who knows, but right here, right now, I believe the focus is God's plan for human redemption, and human redemption alone. Well yes but that doesn't exclude, by any means of reason, the possibility that he made other life forms elsewhere. God is a lot bigger than you seem to think. He could easily handle gazillions of other life forms anywhere he puts them. That's what infinite power and intelligence implies.
Eph 1:10 ..."unto a dispensation of the fullness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth..."
In the heavens? I wouldn't bet a lot o' dosh on it but it may just be possible that some references to the heavens literally includes all worlds wherever they may be found in the universe(s). Again, Spurgeon and Finney thought so.
But let's put the question in reverse: what if life were discovered elsewhere? Are you sure that would undo the bible, the plan of God, reasons for faith and your own faith?
It certainly would only make me rejoice in God's infinite creativity, power and wisdom.
If there is life elsewhere I'd bet it would be in close contact with God and unfallen, needing no redemption.
If there isn't I think I'd actually be rather disappointed that such vast vistas of seemingly infinite expanse and savage beauty were made only for this tiny little world upon which God lived and walked in human form.
I suggest you read CS Lewis' Cosmic trilogy and Chronicles of Narnia. Deep biblical and spiritual insight is contained therein.
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 10:59:32 PM
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yzf-r1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Christs sacrifice is more than sufficient for all mankind. What would it have to do with aliens?
The point is, God alone is holy (and angels who have not fallen), so "life on other planets" would still require a Redeemer.
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But let's put the question in reverse: what if life were discovered elsewhere? Are you sure that would undo the bible, the plan of God, reasons for faith and your own faith?
I don't know about "undo", but seriously question. Anyway, it won't happen, you can only be proven wrong.
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I suggest you read CS Lewis' Cosmic trilogy and Chronicles of Narnia. Deep biblical and spiritual insight is contained therein.
Yeah, you talk alot about that, I'll stick to the scriptures, not extra Biblical fantasies, thanks. I don't appreciate your condescending junk, either, with this "duh" stuff. Who the heck do you think you are? You're speculating COMPLETELY outside God's revealed Word about issues you have ZERO knoweldge of, then you're going to brow beat me? Get outta here.
[Edited by moderator - TOS 5]
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 4/17/2009 11:09:35 PM >
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 11:05:57 PM
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yzf-r1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
If there isn't I think I'd actually be rather disappointed that such vast vistas of seemingly infinite expanse and savage beauty were made only for this tiny little world upon which God lived and walked in human form.
And, again, is creating a new heavens and earth at the end of THIS age, based on what transpires with God's plan for HUMANITY too much for God? "Is the arm of the Lord too short?"
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/17/2009 11:51:35 PM
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davidgeminden
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Hi,
I lean towards viewing this physical universe as the physical creation of “Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ................ Gen 2:3” and all that God put in it as described in “Gen 1:1 through Gen 2:3”. If God filled the vast empty parts of this physical creation (this created universe) with the objects described in Gen 1:14 through Gen 1:19 for the purpose of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years for the creatures he created on the earth, were those objects created by God for physical alien creatures to inhabit?? Are physical aliens most likely alien to this physical created universe described in Gen 1:1 through Gen 2:3 and part of another physical created universe (separate from ours) that God created and did not tell us about?? If so, would God let the creatures (aliens) of another universe tour this universe (corrupted universe)?? If we are physically confined to our universe that is described in “Gen1:1 through Gen 2:3” at this point in eternal time, are the postulated aliens confined to their own physical universe??
I tend to infer from Gen 1:14 through Gen 1:19 an implication by God that those objects that he created out beyond the earth and in our universe were not created for habitation, but were created only for the purpose of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years for the creatures he created on the earth. Atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist do not want the earth to hold a special place in this universe as seems to be implied in the Bible. The Bible seems to imply that the earth holds a special place in this created universe, but atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist do not want the earth to hold a special place in this universe. Atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist are so afraid of the earth holding a special place in the universe, as implied in the Bible, that a starting assumption to their hypothesized model of the universe is that the universe has no center, so that there is no special place in our universe.
David G.
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/18/2009 12:03:20 AM
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yzf-r1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davidgeminden
I tend to infer from Gen 1:14 through Gen 1:19 an implication by God that those objects that he created out beyond the earth and in our universe were not created for habitation, but were created only for the purpose of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years for the creatures he created on the earth. Atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist do not want the earth to hold a special place in this universe as seems to be implied in the Bible. The Bible seems to imply that the earth holds a special place in this created universe, but atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist do not want the earth to hold a special place in this universe. Atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist are so afraid of the earth holding a special place in the universe, as implied in the Bible, that a starting assumption to their hypothesized model of the universe is that the universe has no center, so that there is no special place in our universe.
David G.
amen brother....great post
the biggest champions of the alien hype in 2009 are almost always atheists and agnostics, I want no part of their delusion
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/18/2009 6:21:11 AM
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mikejonesoftn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davidgeminden
I tend to infer from Gen 1:14 through Gen 1:19 an implication by God that those objects that he created out beyond the earth and in our universe were not created for habitation, but were created only for the purpose of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years for the creatures he created on the earth.
Trying to understand, you believe that Mars, Jupiter, and other co existing planets were made for the same reasons as the sun, the moon, and the stars?
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/20/2009 11:14:14 AM
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GHitch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yzf-r1
The point is, God alone is holy (and angels who have not fallen), so "life on other planets" would still require a Redeemer. Do angels need a redeemer? Do animals? Does any life form that has never sinned? All certainly need him as from him comes life itself. But only the fallen need a redeemer.
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I don't know about "undo", but seriously question. Anyway, it won't happen, you can only be proven wrong. Or not. You cannot know that.
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Yeah, you talk alot about that, I'll stick to the scriptures, not extra Biblical fantasies, thanks. We need a little talk here and I'm not being condescending - just trying to open up what I'm saying.
Are you implying we should ignore all the Christian teachers God gives the church (Eph 4:11 etc.)? That we should stop listening to pastors, evangelists etc..; Cease reading anything except the bible?
Would you tell your pastor that you must cease listening to his sermons because that's extra-biblical interpretation - 'fantasies'. Is that what you're saying?
It doesn't work in the real world wherein Christ teaches his people through every possible means. Sure the bible is that special collection of books wherein men were divinely directed to write down the truth and I love that book more than any other.
But those writings were designed to be as concise, precise and as succinct as possible. It was designed for communicating God's plan for man in the least number of words necessary - else we would have need for endless volumes, impossible for us to carry around or communicate the gospel with simply and effectively.
The bible doesn't teach me genetics or biology; it doesn't tell me how to play guitar; it doesn't tell us how many stars there are; how black holes came to exist; it doesn't say anything at all about computers, airplanes or electric engines and light bulbs; and it doesn't tell us whether God created life elsewhere - because it is unnecessary to his plans for this world and we don't need to know. As Harold Hill used to say, "That's none of your business."
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I don't appreciate your condescending junk, either, with this "duh" stuff. Well sorry there but my 'duh' merely meant that I don't get what your saying nor your logic. No condescension.
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Who the heck do you think you are? Just a Xian who's been in the church for 50 years, has studied scripture intensively both in and out of theology schools and has a good deal of hard life experience.
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You're speculating COMPLETELY outside God's revealed Word about issues you have ZERO knoweldge of, then you're going to brow beat me? Yes, but you're doing the exact same thing! Can you see that? Only from the opposite stance.
And I'm not brow beating you at all, I'm trying to get you thinking farther and deeper on God and existence.
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Get outta here. No thanks, you're getting rather aggressive and nasty. I don't need to preach to you about what that implies biblically.
No one knows about life elsewhere, whether it be mere spores, bacteria or highly intelligent moral agents or what. No one. Nor you nor I. My whole point is that it is possible. God is bigger than we think.
At this point, it is impossible to know one way or another. One simply cannot say, "the bible says nothing about life elsewhere therefore there is none." That is a non sequitur and untenable both logically and biblically.
If life is ever discovered elsewhere it will have no effect on my faith in Christ, Creator of the stars and of all life, except to increase it.
I'm very sorry if my wording offended you - it was not at all my intention. But your interpretations of my words were incorrect.
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/20/2009 11:48:23 AM
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GHitch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davidgeminden
I lean towards viewing this physical universe as the physical creation of “Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ................ Gen 2:3” and all that God put in it as described in “Gen 1:1 through Gen 2:3”. If God filled the vast empty parts of this physical creation (this created universe) with the objects described in Gen 1:14 through Gen 1:19 for the purpose of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years for the creatures he created on the earth, were those objects created by God for physical alien creatures to inhabit??
....
I tend to infer from Gen 1:14 through Gen 1:19 an implication by God that those objects that he created out beyond the earth and in our universe were not created for habitation, but were created only for the purpose of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years for the creatures he created on the earth. Let's take it for granted that what you say is true and it certainly is. Yet is that the only purpose for these things? Can you state, with biblical foundations, that there is no other purpose for those objects? I don't think so. What kind of light, sign or season do we get from the furthest galaxies? They're are not even visible without powerful telescopes that did not exist when Genesis was written. Same thing with the amazing nebulae - so awesome and beautiful but no one on earth in Adam's day could have ever known they were even there. And those objects provide exactly how much light of season to earth? Precious little if any at all. One could mention quasars, gas giant planets that are only detectable through math applied to light around distant stars.
Is it not at least possible if not probable that the infinite Creator has other uses for these things as well?
If there were life, bacterial or highly sophisticated societies living are the farthest places from earth what would that change of anything really? It could only add to his glory, certainly not subtract from it.
Therefore, it seems evident to me that all conversation pertaining to life elsewhere is speculative at best - on both sides. But to deny the very possibility of it is simply stubbornness based on personal interpretations and preconceptions on the bible but not on the bible itself. One simply cannot know for sure either way.
Again, Charles H Spurgeon, one the greatest Christian preachers of the gospel that ever lived had no problem with the concept of life elsewhere: quote:
"It may also be, but I do not know, and so I cannot tell you, that we are, in future dispensations, to fill unto other worlds much the same office as angels fill to ours. Jesus has made us kings and priests—and we are in training for our thrones. What if in this congregation I am learning to proclaim my Master’s Glory to myriads of worlds! Possibly the preacher who is faithful here may yet be made to tell forth His Lord’s Glory to constellations at a later time. What if one might stand upon a central star and preach Christ to worlds on worlds instead of preaching Him to these two galleries and to this area! Why not?" - Sermon #1960
"We cannot tell but that in the boundless regions of space, there are worlds inhabited by beings infinitely superior to us—" - sermon #151
"He had created worlds, I know not how many, but in them all He found no rival. Per-haps all the stars we see are worlds full of inhabitants who worship the infinite Creator—" sermon #1786
"I have such a conviction of the power of Christ’s death that if it were revealed to me that on the Cross He redeemed not only one world, but as many fallen worlds as there are stars, I could well believe it!" - sermon #2224 It appears his mind's eye and faith were much greater than any of those who reject all notion of life elsewhere and then claim to do so because of the bible!
Charles Finney, one Americas greatest revivalists believed as much:
quote:
"That the work of Atonement was the most interesting and impressive exhibition of God that ever was made in this world and probably in the universe."
"Now, as it can never be expected, that the Atonement will be repeated, it is for ever settled, that rebellion in any other world than this, can have no hope of impunity."
"We have reason to believe, that Christ, by his Atonement, is not only the Savior of this world, but the Savior of the universe in an important sense"
"This world is to be turned back to its allegiance to God, and the blessed Atonement of Christ has so unbosomed God before the universe, as, no doubt, not only to save other worlds from going into rebellion," -- Skeleton Lecture of Theology - The Atonement.
quote:
Atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist do not want the earth to hold a special place in this universe as seems to be implied in the Bible. The Bible seems to imply that the earth holds a special place in this created universe, but atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist do not want the earth to hold a special place in this universe. Atheistic, naturalistic, materialistic evolutionist are so afraid of the earth holding a special place in the universe, as implied in the Bible, that a starting assumption to their hypothesized model of the universe is that the universe has no center, so that there is no special place in our universe. This is certainly true. Earth does indeed hold a unique place in the universe - even if only because here it was the God became flesh and set his tent among us in human form. Here it was that God revealed such an amazing love to rebels who deserved nothing but damnation from him that it inspires even the angels. As Finney notes, this demonstration of love and righteousness coming together in the atonement of Christ is the greatest revelation of unselfish love that the world and all universes (if there are any others) will ever witness. It happened here. As far as we know - here only.
If life were ever discovered elsewhere, the atheists and Darwinists would be faced with even greater dilemmas than what they face now and not the contrary. The plausibility of life spontaneously appearing through natural processes in this single world is so small as to be dubbed impossible - how could they ever explains it appearance more than once by the same virtually impossible mechanism! It would an even greater argument for intelligent design.
And Christians would only need to worship him more as the giver of all life.
Life creates life. Life cannot come from non-life.
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/21/2009 12:04:51 AM
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yzf-r1
Posts: 572
Joined: 3/8/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
I'm very sorry if my wording offended you - it was not at all my intention. But your interpretations of my words were incorrect.
Apology accepted, and I lost my cool a bit, so I apologize as well. I enjoy reading 99% of your posts here, but we simply disagree on this issue. You compare the possiblity of aliens to superfluous issues like playing the guitar, but I don't see it that way at all, I see it as a far more important and foundational issue: the Truth of God concerning Creation
Colossians 1
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
If you read that passage and take it seriously (as I do), either a) the Spirit of God mentioned everything with regard to creation under the headship of Christ, but just kind of left "aliens" out for some reason, or b) "aliens" (aside from angelic or demonic rulers) do not exist. I'll take option b)
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/21/2009 3:18:41 AM
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davidgeminden
Posts: 2
Joined: 10/19/2008
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Hi Ya All,
I think it should be obvious that I am viewing things from what I think is statically the most probable conclusion based on the creation information I find in the Bible. The statical nature of my reason is seen in my statements such as: “I lean towards......”, “If God filled.......”, “I tend to infer.....”. By the way, the most probable does not mean 100%; there is always a smaller probability that the most probable is incorrect. Personally, I feel more comfortable emphasizing the most probable conclusion then running through the vast forest of least probable conclusions. Personally, I do feel that the idea that God created physical aliens on the objects beyond this earth in this universe has a much lower probability based on information we have in the Bible. I do find it clearly stated that God created living creatures on earth, and that God created the objects beyond earth for the purpose of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years. However, at this time in my life, I am not aware of any information in the Bible that clearly states that he created other living creatures on the objects beyond the earth, and I have not found any information in the Bible that clearly states that God created the objects beyond the earth for other purposes than for the purposes of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years (well----, He did state that those objects were for his glory). Therefore, I find the discussions favoring physical aliens on those objects beyond the earth in this universe to be most probably just “running through the vast forest of least probable conclusions (most probably, just science fiction)”. But, there is a very small probability that I am incorrect.
My encounters with atheistic folk and observations of atheistic folk leaves me with the impression that they feel like they have won a significant battle/victory in trying to convince Christians to become an atheist if they convince a Christian that physical aliens and life have a high probability of existing on the objects beyond this earth in this universe. They feel even more victorious if they convince a Christian that there is a high probability of physical life existing in another universe beyond this universe. Is this because they feel better when we are “running with them through the vast forest of least probable conclusions”??
David G.
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/21/2009 12:58:18 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 974
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yzf-r1
Apology accepted, and I lost my cool a bit, so I apologize as well. I enjoy reading 99% of your posts here, but we simply disagree on this issue. You compare the possiblity of aliens to superfluous issues like playing the guitar, but I don't see it that way at all, I see it as a far more important and foundational issue: the Truth of God concerning Creation I don't think there is much disagreement. I never said I believed in life elsewhere. What I'm saying is that there is a possibility. That's all.
quote:
If you read that passage and take it seriously (as I do), either a) the Spirit of God mentioned everything with regard to creation under the headship of Christ, but just kind of left "aliens" out for some reason, or b) "aliens" (aside from angelic or demonic rulers) do not exist. I'll take option b)
Fine, that's your privilege, but to me that verse includes everything, every living thing; and their location would make no difference. Alien life, if it exists, and whether bacterial or other, would necessarily be under the reign of Christ - his own creation. Things in the heavens includes the entire universe and everything in it.
I still think you should consider Spurgeons words though. I find it pretty amazing that both he and Finney (who did not know each other) would speak of such things long before the 20th centuries enthrallment with sci-fi aliens and insanity over UFOs.
Youngs literal translation of the Colossians text is : quote:
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation, because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created, and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. And himself is the head of the body--the assembly--who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things --himself--first, because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens. Notice it is heavens plural (the greek), not heaven singular.
As in the analytical-literal version: quote:
because by Him all [things] were created, the [ones] in the heavens and the [ones] on the earth, the visible [things] and the invisible [things], whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all such things have been created through Him and for Him,
Whatever. My whole point is not to tell anyone what to believe - indeed it doesn't matter what we believe of life elsewhere - because if they do exist no amount of unbelief will cause them to cease to exist and if they don't, no amount belief that they do will make them exist; My point is that no matter if life does exist elsewhere or not it changes nothing of the Word of God or faith. All things are still his creation and subject to him.
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/21/2009 1:15:34 PM
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GHitch
Posts: 974
Joined: 7/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davidgeminden
...However, at this time in my life, I am not aware of any information in the Bible that clearly states that he created other living creatures on the objects beyond the earth, and I have not found any information in the Bible that clearly states that God created the objects beyond the earth for other purposes than for the purposes of providing day & night, for signs and seasons and for days and years (well----, He did state that those objects were for his glory). Therefore, I find the discussions favoring physical aliens on those objects beyond the earth in this universe to be most probably just “running through the vast forest of least probable conclusions (most probably, just science fiction)”. But, there is a very small probability that I am incorrect. Indeed there is little that could be interpreted to signify life elsewhere in the bible. But that is entirely to be expected. It's not our world and it's none of our business. Scripture would no waste time telling us about specific other worlds of life - except for the many life-forms in heaven and in the heavens: angels, cherubim, seraphim, etc..
quote:
My encounters with atheistic folk and observations of atheistic folk leaves me with the impression that they feel like they have won a significant battle/victory in trying to convince Christians to become an atheist if they convince a Christian that physical aliens and life have a high probability of existing on the objects beyond this earth in this universe. They feel even more victorious if they convince a Christian that there is a high probability of physical life existing in another universe beyond this universe. Is this because they feel better when we are “running with them through the vast forest of least probable conclusions”?? They may indeed think they've won something against God by in such but that is only more proof of just how poorly atheists reason. They are practically immune to logic yet think they are atheists because of logic!
It is certainly not because we are "running with them". It is rather due to a faulty interpretation of facts and shallow thinking on their part. It's up to us to point out that God is a lover of creation and could have made anything anywhere he pleased.
Eph 3:10 "He did this so that now, through the church, the wisdom of God in all its variety might be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms."
They also err in not seeing that life elsewhere, if it exists, far from being a support to their bankrupt disbeliefs, actually lends further support to theism.
Personally I have no more problem with God creating life on some other planet than with God creating life on some other continent.
_____________________________
"The success of Darwinism was accompanied by a decline in scientific integrity. ...To establish the continuity required by the theory, historical arguments are invoked even though historical evidence is lacking." -W. R. Thompson, PhD
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RE: Could the existance of an alien species disprove Go... - 4/21/2009 10:13:47 PM
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yzf-r1
Posts: 572
Joined: 3/8/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Notice it is heavens plural (the greek), not heaven singular.
According to John MacArthur, use of the term "heavens" in Paul's day simply speaks to the atmosphere of the earth vs. the "heaven of heavens" (the known universe).
This issue will be resolved when the Lord returns, but again I say, the timetable for complete destruction of the present universe, including the elements themselves (!), is based solely on God's timetable for what occurs on this earth, specifically, the conclusion of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, physically, on the earth. If there are myriads of other "alien" civilizations out there, why would that be? Can anyone logically answer that?
When you view the universe as temporary (which it is), and God as omnipotent, the picture starts to come together. Yes, we are a speck, we're nothing, "dust in the scales", and God is that unspeakably and infinitely powerful ("for there is in the awful and mysterious depths of the Triune God neither limit nor end" - A.W. Tozer), but if the universe itself is just a shadow, and we're a speck of dust within that shadow, is not God glorified as Most High? There is ONE mediator between God and man, which the angels also worship ("EVERY knee will bow"). Would mystical "aliens" know that mediator? No. Will Christ rule and reign on other worlds before the universe is destroyed? No. The case is closed imo.
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