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Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:10:20 AM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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Hello fellow Christian parents,
I just found this website after googling "when can I legally kick my kid out of the house?" That is what our family life has descended to. I will describe what we have been through and perhaps you can give me some suggestions or see some possibilities I cannot.
We have 2 sons, one almost 18 and a senior, the other age 15 and a freshman. They are both in the same Jesuit high school, but the older boy is a straight-A student with a very nice personality. His brother, on the other hand, has been giving us hell since he turned about 12 or 13. He was diagnosed with ADHD in 3rd grade, for being too hyper, talkative, impulsive, etc. He's always been difficult but his teen years have been an absolute living hell. He's taken things from us, he has lied constantly, he's been surly, disobedient, ugly-natured, and profane. I have to put a lock on a closet and put things in there that I don't want him to have access to. Isn't that pathetic??
He takes meds for school, and while I don't think they do everything they are supposed to do, if he didn't take anything, he'd already have flunked out of school. He refuses to take the twice-a-day kind, so I can't adjust his dosage at all because he refuses to cooperate. In fact, he pretty much refuses to cooperate with me at all. All I've ever wanted is for him to succeed in school and in life, but he sees me as his own personal Nazi and thinks I am pathetic (I have read his journal and I know he hates me.) I've tried every parenting technique in the book, from positive feedback to rewards to incentives to punishments and more, but nothing has worked for him. I keep thinking there must be a key for his heart but I can't find one!
His father and I have been married 20 years this coming Tuesday, and while I wouldn't describe our family as jolly, we do have supper together every night and we've always supported our sons as well as we can with whatever they want to do. Jonathan is capable of so much more than he is doing, and isn't contributing to the family in any way except to rebel and be insubordinate. When things get really bad between him and his father, my husband has struck him a few times, which of course does not help their relationship. I have done the same, he drives me right to the edge of sanity. We used to do things as a family but Jonathan is so unpleasant that we don't go very many places any more, because of his attitude.
He currently has few privileges, he has no cell phone of his own, no computer, gets a few hours of video game time a week but still does not read or study on his own. His grades have been so bad we added private tutoring which is helping some but then his attitude is still ugly. He has a girlfriend at the girls' school next to his school, I think she's a nice girl, and we have been limiting him to one hour on the phone a day but I was gone for a week and his dad just let him do whatever so now I have cut back and I'm the bad guy again.
I have prayed and prayed until my knees are sore, I have cried buckets of tears, I have yelled at him and also tried talking to him in earnest, I've tried everything I know and I feel tonight as if I really have had enough. He refused to go to church with us tonight and then he later called us, his own family members, "you people," as if we were some total strangers.
I want to send him away from here. But since he's only 15, my options are few. I'm sorry this isn't very coherent, I'm just in great distress and found this forum, I hope God led me here and someone can help. I really want to kick him out. I am praying about it, but if I had somewhere to send him, I would. The other limitation is that he is on a gluten-free diet and no one I know can deal with his dietary restrictions. I have tons of cousins and one of them might take him for a while but the food thing rules that out. Boarding schools are the same, plus no one seems to want the messed-up kids any more - all of the schools I have looked into are all "Excellent students will thrive here, blah blah blah." Whatever happened to reform school??
Please help me. I am not even sure I love this punk who has taken over my son's body and soul. I'm not proud of myself when I call him a jerk, but HE IS ONE!!! Help.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:20:39 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 4566
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hey_mom
Hello fellow Christian parents,
I just found this website after googling "when can I legally kick my kid out of the house?" That is what our family life has descended to. I will describe what we have been through and perhaps you can give me some suggestions or see some possibilities I cannot.
We have 2 sons, one almost 18 and a senior, the other age 15 and a freshman. They are both in the same Jesuit high school, but the older boy is a straight-A student with a very nice personality. His brother, on the other hand, has been giving us hell since he turned about 12 or 13. He was diagnosed with ADHD in 3rd grade, for being too hyper, talkative, impulsive, etc. He's always been difficult but his teen years have been an absolute living hell. He's taken things from us, he has lied constantly, he's been surly, disobedient, ugly-natured, and profane. I have to put a lock on a closet and put things in there that I don't want him to have access to. Isn't that pathetic??
He takes meds for school, and while I don't think they do everything they are supposed to do, if he didn't take anything, he'd already have flunked out of school. He refuses to take the twice-a-day kind, so I can't adjust his dosage at all because he refuses to cooperate. In fact, he pretty much refuses to cooperate with me at all. All I've ever wanted is for him to succeed in school and in life, but he sees me as his own personal Nazi and thinks I am pathetic (I have read his journal and I know he hates me.) I've tried every parenting technique in the book, from positive feedback to rewards to incentives to punishments and more, but nothing has worked for him. I keep thinking there must be a key for his heart but I can't find one!
His father and I have been married 20 years this coming Tuesday, and while I wouldn't describe our family as jolly, we do have supper together every night and we've always supported our sons as well as we can with whatever they want to do. Jonathan is capable of so much more than he is doing, and isn't contributing to the family in any way except to rebel and be insubordinate. When things get really bad between him and his father, my husband has struck him a few times, which of course does not help their relationship. I have done the same, he drives me right to the edge of sanity. We used to do things as a family but Jonathan is so unpleasant that we don't go very many places any more, because of his attitude.
He currently has few privileges, he has no cell phone of his own, no computer, gets a few hours of video game time a week but still does not read or study on his own. His grades have been so bad we added private tutoring which is helping some but then his attitude is still ugly. He has a girlfriend at the girls' school next to his school, I think she's a nice girl, and we have been limiting him to one hour on the phone a day but I was gone for a week and his dad just let him do whatever so now I have cut back and I'm the bad guy again.
I have prayed and prayed until my knees are sore, I have cried buckets of tears, I have yelled at him and also tried talking to him in earnest, I've tried everything I know and I feel tonight as if I really have had enough. He refused to go to church with us tonight and then he later called us, his own family members, "you people," as if we were some total strangers.
I want to send him away from here. But since he's only 15, my options are few. I'm sorry this isn't very coherent, I'm just in great distress and found this forum, I hope God led me here and someone can help. I really want to kick him out. I am praying about it, but if I had somewhere to send him, I would. The other limitation is that he is on a gluten-free diet and no one I know can deal with his dietary restrictions. I have tons of cousins and one of them might take him for a while but the food thing rules that out. Boarding schools are the same, plus no one seems to want the messed-up kids any more - all of the schools I have looked into are all "Excellent students will thrive here, blah blah blah." Whatever happened to reform school??
Please help me. I am not even sure I love this punk who has taken over my son's body and soul. I'm not proud of myself when I call him a jerk, but HE IS ONE!!! Help.
I understand your frustration, but love is a choice we make and your son needs to know that you love him even when he is being a "jerk". Having consequences for his behavior is a good thing and you may need to consider even stronger ones. There is even the possibility of boding school if things remain unresolvable. However, no matter what you do, it is important that your consequences are chosen out of love for your son because they are in his best interest. Tough consequences are a good thing when balanced by unconditional love, but by themselves they almost always bring disaster.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:39:54 AM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 948
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
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There's a ton of military schools. Do you live in the States or the UK?
I have a step cousin who seemed just like your son, angry, defiant, ADHD, etc. They sent him to military school in El Paso, TX and he came back a new teen. His transformation was absolutely amazing. He was respectful to his parents and everyone, he did well in school, he stopped getting into trouble with the law, he made a new type of friends when he came back.
I hope you're able to get things sorted out.
_____________________________
-Stina
Turn right to go left
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:42:34 AM
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Focusing
Posts: 5168
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(((Hey_mom)))
First, know that I am praying for you and your family.
My son also has ADHD ... there are many types of meds, including up to 16-hour release. You may want to discuss this with your doctor. My son's pediatrician can now prescribe meds, but we go to a child psych in order to get the best information. Also, have you tried counseling? You would want to find someone who specializes in ADD/ADHD disorders. Are you familiar with CHADD? Check them out at chadd.org and see if they have any chapters in your area. Another important issue to be aware of as far as the hyperactivity goes is high fructose corn syrup. When my son has anything with HFCS there is a significant change in his behavior ... for the worse. You mentioned that he is on a gluten free diet. Have you had him tested for other food allergies? Sometimes that can trigger behavior issues. It may be worth checking into.
Praying for your son and assuring him that you love him, even when his misbehaves, even when you are upset or angry with him, is extremely important. Your son is testing you. Keep your feet firmly planted on the Rock. Have you heard of the book Power of a Praying Parent? I have slowly been working my way through this book and would highly recommend it.
_____________________________
11/21 is the 11th Annual National Survivors of Suicide Day
Please remember to lift those in prayer who have lost a loved one to suicide
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:43:44 AM
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toryjoe1109
Posts: 50
Joined: 4/19/2009
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O.k. I think you are very angry and overwhelmed but I think kicking him out will make him feel that you are against him. My oldest is nine so, I don't have any experience in your area but my heart really went out to you. I also know what the bible says."Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it" Proverbs 22:6. Have you talked to your pastor or anyone in leadership? Is your son willing to go to a therapist? Why is he on a gluten free diet and medication? We just pulled my son off of the third med.for adhd because he was getting very angry, we did not enjoy him, and then he started hurting himself. Now, he is hyper and impulsive, but we love seeing him so happy. We enjoy him. His younger sisters have gotten closer to him since we pulled him off. Don't get me wrong, we need to find another alternative education wise but meds. was not for us. Plus, for the two years he was on them, he went from a 1.1 to 1.4 reading level. They hurt him more than anything. There was no point to keep him on them. I don't know your exact situation, but could it be the meds? The things he is doing could be a side effect. I will pray for you that the Lord would just open up doors in your families life and guide you. It will all work out. That is God's plan.
_____________________________
Love covers all sin.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 1:15:14 AM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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Thank you to everyone who has responded so far.
We are in the US, in Texas as a matter of fact.
He takes a slow-release stimulant now, and there is no higher dosage, he takes 30 mg. in the morning plus a 5 mg. "boost" capsule. We pay over $300 a month for his meds and they aren't a magic solution to all his problems but without them, he would be totally failing this very competitive school. We did not push him to go to this school, he wanted to go and told us he could handle the work. We know it's competitive because our other son has a lot of work, although he is the kind of kid who does very well in school, he has a work ethic of his own and will do his school work.
It was middle school that changed Jonathan so much. I wanted to homeschool him but even though my husband agreed to allow it, he really wasn't convinced it was best, and so we began on a difficult footing. Jonathan complained and balked, but we were working through that, but then hubby kept asking how he was going to do sports, etc. and I felt he wasn't supporting me after all. I found a Catholic school that would take Jonathan as a late start and we enrolled him. He started off OK but ever since, it's been a steady downhill path until he's got a 2.4 GPA. This is a boy who started out with very high standardized testing scores in grade school, even before he was put on stimulants. We are a reading family and I used to read to both of my sons constantly but he never reads any more. And I mean NEVER.
I do love him, but my frustration with him is deep. I have used Stormie's book for years, YEARS. I had recently taken him to a psychiatrist to see if that would reach inside him and help him (actually I wanted ALL the family to go, but the shrink just wanted to see him) but he wouldn't cooperate. I sat there in the psych's office and watched Jonathan blow the whole thing off, just like he does everything else I try to do for him.
He acts like a spoiled brat, who thinks everyone is against him when it's the opposite. I have been home with my sons since they were babies and I probably do too much for them. Their father was never asked to do chores when he was growing up so I get no support from him to make them both work around the home. He gets angry at them when they don't do anything but he does not show them how to work and I am seen as a nagging mom and nothing more.
Thanks for your prayers, I know they do help.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 1:25:26 AM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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Oh, and about his diet - he was diagnosed with celiac disease when he was in 1st grade, age 7...He has an autoimmune disease that causes his body to attack his own intestines when he eats anything containing or made from wheat, barley or rye. The only treatment is a gluten-free diet. He can never eat the grains in any amount or he will have bad health problems.
We don't give him the meds on weekends, and sometimes he's happier, but sometimes he's not. Today he has been uncooperative and distant, and not eating much either. Usually when he's off the meds he is eating all day long.
We haven't had him tested for drugs or alchohol. I figured that since he doesn't get an allowance or any money of his own, he'd have a hard time paying for drugs, but goodness knows, he could probably figure out a way to get what he wanted.
I just don't know if I have the strength to go on with this battle. I know it is God he is rebelling against, but it really hurts me that he is so nasty and horrible to all of the people who love him the most. He is like the Prodigal Son only he hasn't left, he's just staying and making us miserable! It's like he's punishing us for loving him.
If our family is screwed up, it's at least partly because of his rebellion. We aren't perfect parents but we've always tried to love our sons and do the best we know how to do for them. I can't tell you how many books on ADHD that I have read. I've gone to support groups, conferences, etc. It only works if the child will work with you to do his or her best. Otherwise, all is in vain.
I will come back tomorrow, I need to go and talk to God for a while. Thanks again. It's really nice of y'all to help....
I wish there was some sort of intervention we could do for him. Not a drug use one, I hope, but something to let him know that this is not a dress rehearsal, it's his real life...
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 1:30:48 AM
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toryjoe1109
Posts: 50
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I'm sorry , but I have to ask. Why is he on meds. especially if he did well before? Why is he on a gluten free diet? Does he have allergies?
I recently found out that a psychiatrist is not the way to go if you need advise or to talk. They are there to prescribe meds.
_____________________________
Love covers all sin.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 9:05:05 AM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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I wrote above that he has celiac disease, which is not an allergy but an autoimmune disease. He cannot eat anything that contains or is made from wheat, barley or rye, but if he follows the diet, he remains healthy. It's not a factor except that it does limit him from boarding schools that cannot accommodate the GF diet. He also could never join the military, which might have been a possibility had it not been for his celiac disease. Unlike an allergy, he cannot "outgrow" this and will need to avoid those grains for his entire life.
I feel as if I am standing in a long hallway with doors on either side, and every door could be the answer to Jonathan and his future, but every door is locked! I cried out to God last night and at least I got to sleep after hours of sitting up. (my husband is out of town at the moment)
I'm sure we've made almost every mistake possible with Jonathan, but for his part, he's been an extremely difficult child to raise, and a completely untrustworthy teenager. His father is exasperated to the point where he basically doesn't want anything to do with Jonathan any more, so I get to be the really "bad cop" by cutting down on phone time, etc. I just flipped out last night when he called us "you people" with a derisive tone...He has a life full of ease and comfort and he thinks we're cruel???
I just don't know what can change the situation.
I made a mistake when I said it was a psychiatrist we saw, it was a psychologist. And it didn't help, Jonathan didn't want to cooperate and I wasted time and money taking him there. Jonathan to me is like being in a long corridor with doors on either side, which could open up a future for him, but every door I try to open is locked tight!
ToryJoe, about the meds...I wanted to get him off the meds but that was when I was going to keep him home for middle school. If he goes to formal school, he has to have them or he will either flunk out or get kicked out. We have always told him that the meds are like his glasses, they are just a tool, not magic, and it's still up to him to work toward his future. The meds are not going to do it for him, it's just a little easier with the meds.
But it's the rebellion that is the issue. If he weren't in a rebellion stance against us, he could listen to what we are telling him.
< Message edited by Hey_mom -- 5/3/2009 9:11:23 AM >
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 9:13:18 AM
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bolt.
Posts: 1757
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
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I will try to put some thought into advice, but for now I'd like to remind you of one thing. It's perfectly clear that you do love him. If you did not love him, his behaviour would not bother you at all, except to annoy you. You would not cry; you would not pray; you would not try frantically to find another plan that has a chance of working. Those are the actions of a dedicated loving parent who is grieving in a very VERY difficult situation... you are greiving because somebody you love is in trouble and there seems to be nothing you can do to help him.
As for advice, I think reform/military school seems like an option to put on the table in a serious way. PM the mom above who had good experiences with a school near you, and she may tell you the contact info. Perhaps they run a summer school sort of thing.
Please also remember that celiac is not an uncommon condition, and most schools will be able to deal with it. Also, at 15 there is no reason that he should not be learning to manage his own diet restrictions in an independant way. You might be more able to use the cousin option than you think, if you send a list of 'what to feed him' meal by meal, rather that what not to feed him.
Also, not to be nosy, as this is not the 'marriage' section, but the way you have mentioned your husband, I'm getting the impression that he is not exactly on-side with the challenges of parenting a difficult child well? If so, that's an added challenge. Is he going to agree to dirastic plans? Is he going to put in much work? Have your husband and son got a solid relationship to count on between them? (Also, how do the 2 brothers get along?)
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 10:00:38 AM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
I will try to put some thought into advice, but for now I'd like to remind you of one thing. It's perfectly clear that you do love him. If you did not love him, his behaviour would not bother you at all, except to annoy you. You would not cry; you would not pray; you would not try frantically to find another plan that has a chance of working. Those are the actions of a dedicated loving parent who is grieving in a very VERY difficult situation... you are greiving because somebody you love is in trouble and there seems to be nothing you can do to help him.
As for advice, I think reform/military school seems like an option to put on the table in a serious way. PM the mom above who had good experiences with a school near you, and she may tell you the contact info. Perhaps they run a summer school sort of thing.
Please also remember that celiac is not an uncommon condition, and most schools will be able to deal with it. Also, at 15 there is no reason that he should not be learning to manage his own diet restrictions in an independant way. You might be more able to use the cousin option than you think, if you send a list of 'what to feed him' meal by meal, rather that what not to feed him.
Also, not to be nosy, as this is not the 'marriage' section, but the way you have mentioned your husband, I'm getting the impression that he is not exactly on-side with the challenges of parenting a difficult child well? If so, that's an added challenge. Is he going to agree to dirastic plans? Is he going to put in much work? Have your husband and son got a solid relationship to count on between them? (Also, how do the 2 brothers get along?)
Thank you for the kind words...I am sitting here with tears running down my face in gratitude. It is so hard to carry on when the struggle seems impossible. I rely on prayer and the Holy Spirit but sometimes I get so discouraged...and then I also get angry, which doesn't help. Grieving...YES I am in grief, for this child that I thought would be such a loving example of God's will...to turn into this profane, hateful, disagreeable person who hates me and everything I stand for. He will even take the Lord's name in vain right in front of me, because he knows it's the one thing that bothers me more than anything else. Anyway, enough about how bad he is...I'm sure you are getting the picture by now.
As for his dad...I probably should post in the marriage section too. We are both of the same faith, but there has been no Christian leadership by my husband in the home. Neither of us were going to church when we married and I had strayed far away from God...when I was pregnant with our first son I was very ill and started praying to God to get me through it. His birth was God's answer to me and I have been grateful to God ever since...but my husband didn't have that experience. He goes to church with us but I don't believe his heart has ever been in it. He is a child of divorce, saw infidelity by his father, his father was very absent in his life, and when he was around, his dad had a bad temper and is a very difficult person to be around. My husband still works with his father some of the time, they are in the same business, I know it's my husband's need to have a father of any kind and he does not have that relationship with Jesus so he keeps seeking it from his earthly father who will never be there for him. I think he has no wellspring to draw from, on how to be a father, even to our older son, who is relatively easy-going and a pleasure to be around.
I know God put us together to glorify Him but it is hard because I so desire that my husband be the spiritual leader of our home. We are unequally yoked, even though my husband had faith as a young child and young teen, he had that faith destroyed when his parents divorced, and it has never been renewed. I pray for him, and have done so for years. As of right now, God has not answered my prayers in that way.
Yes, my husband would agree to a boarding school, just to get Jonathan out of the house and reduce the conflict. He does not like noise, anger, conflict, chaos and is an avoider. So if Jonathan is really being quiet and leaving my husband to his work, he just allows him to do whatever, such as talking on the phone or playing video games, even if we have previously agreed it's not a good idea for him to be on the phone for hours. It's easier than making Jonathan mad. I can understand this, I am growing tired of the constant conflict too, but Jonathan has become an emotional bully this way.
Thanks again for your kindness. You can't know how comforting it is.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 10:04:40 AM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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I forgot to say that my sons used to be very close, but over time, Jonathan has violated his brother's boundaries, taken things, used his phone without permission, and Chris has seen his brother be ugly and defiant, until he basically doesn't want anything to do with him now. He told his brother that he doesn't like people like that, and he wouldn't choose to be around it, so why should he spend time with his brother?
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 10:26:49 AM
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manda59
Posts: 8200
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hey_mom
I forgot to say that my sons used to be very close, but over time, Jonathan has violated his brother's boundaries, taken things, used his phone without permission, and Chris has seen his brother be ugly and defiant, until he basically doesn't want anything to do with him now. He told his brother that he doesn't like people like that, and he wouldn't choose to be around it, so why should he spend time with his brother?
Sounds like maybe deep down, Jonathan is jealous of his older brother, because (in his eyes) Chris does everything right and he does everything wrong. He may even feel that you and/or his father love your older son more than him. I am not saying that is at all the case, but that is how he may perceive things.
Years ago I had a friend (Mick) whose elder brother was a polite quiet friendly academic. But Mick had totally different skill sets (he was more arty - wrote songs and lyrics and drew) and was also much more extrovert, but he constantly felt unfavourably compared to his older brother, and told me that he felt like his parents' failed experiment.
As a young adult I had a friend (Ade) who was the younger of two sons; dad was a pastor. The older brother was charming, polite, kind and just generally considered "cool" by everyone. Everything he did always turned out just right. Ade was the awkward one, the one who wasn't as mature emotionally, often the fool, the joker (whose only way of feeling accepted was to make people laugh). But he was always putting his foot in everything he did. He too confided to me that he thought his parents loved his older brother more than him.
Now, I am not saying at all that either sets of parents loved their older children more; I am not saying that you love your older son more, but that may be how Jonathan perceives things. I wouldn't mind betting that underneath all this hostilty is someone who feels unlovely and hates himself. He may also find it very hard to put his feelings into words and "act out" instead.
I'd suggest you try writing him a letter, telling him all the things you love about him and how much you treasure him as a son. I'd also suggest that, no matter what, you tell him you love him at least once a day, and also find at least 4 things to affirm him about every day. If you're doing these things already, then great, keep on doing them, even if you get it all thrown back in your face.
Does your husband ever take Jonathan out, just the two of them, for some quality time? If not, has there ever been a common interest they've shared, that could perhaps be rekindled?
You said that Jonathan was ok till he was 12/13, and that it was middle school that changed him.
What happened there? And did anything else happen (say, in the family) round about that time?
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 11:36:14 AM
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Hey_mom
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Yes, I am sure he does feel that way, it would be hard not to, since he is seen as the family screw-up. I mean, that is not how we have seen him but now that he is in rebellion, he puts himself in that position and then has an excuse to hate us even more. He feels victimized and then he can justify just about any bad behavior because "we made him" do it. I am not making excuses for how I have treated him, because I have been hurtful to him many times, I'm sure. I've flat out told him that he's really making a mess of his life, part of it is that I hope he does get mad at me and decides to fix things, but so far the stick approach is not working. Neither does the carrot approach....no matter what we use as an incentive, he just does what he wants and damn the consequences. He doesn't have any privileges because he does nothing to earn them.
I know that is where he is, but I can't figure out how to stop it...His brother is leaving for college in the fall, and Jonathan will be the only child in the home for the first time in his life.
My husband is not going to spend time with him, no, they have never had a common interest, Jonathan hasn't wanted us in his life at all for the last 4 years. He started to be a skater complete with all that attitude, and then I allowed him to skate down a hill, he fell off and got a skull fracture and I told him no more skating without a helmet EVER and so he chose not to skate again, and he probably still hates me for that. So he took up the guitar instead but of course he wants to listen to bands that are profane and he has the new attitude of f-u from that music so we took his radio away.
I know we sound like terrible parents but we have done the best that we can for years with him. He is just so difficult that my husband has turned away from him and I am all that he has left, and I feel desperately discouraged. I know my husband needs to engage with him but I despair that will happen - my husband hates all the conflict and stress and just retreats into his work.
My son does not respect any of us, but he especially feels contempt for me.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 11:53:10 AM
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manda59
Posts: 8200
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hey_mom
but so far the stick approach is not working. Neither does the carrot approach....no matter what we use as an incentive, he just does what he wants and damn the consequences.
Affirming a child, even for what seem to us to be the smallest things (I even used to say to my ds sometimes - "hey, you did really well just then to answer nicely", or "hey, that was really good there where you didn't hit your sister") is not a "do this for x number of days, twice a day and then stop", it's a way of life. It can take years for a child to get the message that they are a loved worthwhile person.
I'm not surprised "the stick" approach hasn't worked - if a child already feels like a worthless failure, he has nowhere else to go within himself to find the strength of character that is being demanded/expected of him.
Do you and Jonathan go out on your own together? Shopping, or to get something to eat, maybe?
Are you there at home for him when he comes home from school?
Maybe you didn't see this question of mine before:
quote:
You said that Jonathan was ok till he was 12/13, and that it was middle school that changed him.
What happened there? And did anything else happen (say, in the family) round about that time?
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:15:59 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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I know we are stuck in a negative cycle and I will try harder to pull myself out of it...He gives back little to nothing but I suppose it is futile to expect anything to come from him...I did work with positive affirmations - the approach is called Transforming the Difficult Child - but even that had few results and in the crisis situations he brings on, it's hard to keep up with.
Nothing changed except that I had wanted to keep him at home during the middle school years, had everything planned, thought I had my husband's buy-in but as it turned out, he wasn't ever truly convinced that homeschooling was Jonathan's best option...so we put him back into private school. He didn't know anyone at that school but he made friends at first...a lot of the kids had been together since early elementary so he was somewhat of a celebrity in his own way...He seemed to get along with most people but as ADHD kids will do, he did annoy some and got into some problems...His social skills are not great but he is stubborn and refuses to change his behavior.
Anyway, nothing else changed except he got his manly hormones and grew an attitude to match...We don't have what I would call a healthy household anyway, as I'm sure you can tell by what I've said, and unfortunately he has become the designated "problem child" which is wrong.
He sees things in his own favor...Everything is seen as the other person's fault and that way, he can feel victimized and not change at all.
I feel totally alone in this battle. I know God is standing next to me, but it's hard when things don't seem to change.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:24:25 PM
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Martachoo
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/13/2005
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I am sorry for what you're going through. I don't know what the solution is.. You said he was ok until age 12/13... My son is 13 years old, he takes medication for ADHD and he too has a brother who is a perfect student and athletic. Raising him takes a lot more effort than it does his brother and he sees me get frustrated with him sometimes. My son is just at the point where he is learning about himself and the medication and his difficulties and that somehow he may not be living up to the standards we expect. He is beginning to notice his brother's accomplishments and our reaction to his brother's report card etc.... Sometimes he looks at me and asks, "Do you love me?" and the heart breaker is "Are you dissapointed in me?" "Am I a good boy?".. "Are you mad at me?" Not all children ask their parents questions like this and give them an opportunity to examine themselves and see situations from their child's point of view. All this to say put aside your own frustration and see things from his perspective. You may have to adjust some of the dreams and hopes..ambitions you have for him.
Military school, sending away etc.. may be the answer, I don't know. But it could also make things worse if he already believes that he is not accepted or liked by his family. I wish I had an easy answer for you. Try to think good things about your son. Appreciate his good qualites and things you like about him. I don't know if that will solve all the problems but it will at least let him know that you do love him.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:39:26 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4161
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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You're simply going to have to break the cycle you're in. I realize that's a lot easier said than done, but the status quo will just lead to things getting worse and worse.
The fact that your older son is going off to college actually seems like a perfect opportunity (to me) to turn things around with the younger son. I would make a list of all the things about Jonathan that you admire or appreciate. I would sit down with him and read the list. Ask him to add the things about himself that he sees are strengths. Ask him what he needs that he isn't getting (at home and at school). Find out what his interests are, which classes he likes best and why. Find out if he's thinking about career plans or college or something else after high school. Ask him if there's something he wants to do that he hasn't been able to: art classes, music lessons, tennis, whatever. Don't be critical; don't react to any negativity he may put out; don't be easily offended or too "mom-ish." Just listen to him without judging. It might be an eye-opening conversation and it might point you in a direction that will let you help him get things straightened out.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 12:45:23 PM
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Martachoo
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/13/2005
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I took so long to post I didn't see all the posts before I responded.
I do think there are marital issues as well. This is a parenting folder and that was not your question. Homeschooling him in the middle years may have made things better or may be not. You don't know. You can't go back and change that but you can look at the current school situation and see what may work better for him
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 3:12:22 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
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Wow, it sounds like you're having a really tough time. Let me tell you a little about a recent experience I had with my 12 (almost 3) yr old son and take what you can from it.
My son has always been pretty laid back but over the last several years he has at times been quite a challenge. I'm pretty sure it's just the normal hormonal pre-teen stuff going on. But still, it's really difficult sometimes.
I recently began homeschooling him when it became difficult to keep up with the payments for his private school. It's been a true challenge as he's often rebellious and disrespectful. We're working on changing those attitudes one day at a time.
Over the last 4 weeks my husband, who is normally a great help with the house and kids, had to work 12-14 hour days with almost no time off. I had a lot of responsibilities added to my plate so it was a really crazy month. Due to all the stress my son came to me one day when we'd been having a tough day with either school or his attitude (or something like that). I had been frustrated with him and let him know it. Well, he later came to me and said that he felt like I didn't love him. I was so deeply saddened to hear that. I told him that I do love him and said, "I tell you all the time how much I love you". But he said that actions speak louder than words and I don't act like I love him. Wow. That hit me hard. I initially wanted to defend myself but was struggling to find the right words. So I just cried out to God (silently) and asked Him to help me. I felt lost and didn't know what to do. Parenting a teen is new territory for me.
Several days later, after thinking this over for a while, I realized that my son needed to see less frustration and needed to see more loving actions than what I was already doing. So I asked him to tell me what I could do to make him feel loved. He told me some different things that boiled down to quality time. That's his love language and I now know specific ways I can express my love to him in a way that he'll understand. Yay! I feel like we've really made some progress and have noticed that the more qt I spend with him the better he behaves.
I'm not sure if I've expressed myself very well here. What I'm trying to say is that our children need to be heard. That's a really hard thing to do sometimes. It was hard to hear that I was doing something that caused my child pain. But it was important to hear him out and work at making the necessary changes in my parenting style.
Another thing is when your son his puberty you probably inadvertently compared him to his older brother. If his brother was more laid back then it would automatically put Jonathan in a bad light. Part of the problem may just be that he has a really different personality from his brother and you were caught off guard by it during the hormonal preteen stage.
Also, you might want to consider that he may have gone through some type of traumatic event during middle school that you are unaware of. A complete change in behavior is an indicator of abuse. That happened to me in high school and my mother guessed correctly that I'd been abused just going by the change in my personality.
And lastely, please don't blame Jonathan for your family troubles. Yes, he is causing problems but it wouldn't affect your family nearly so much if your husband were handling things properly. I think the foundation for a good family is a strong, Godly marriage. If you don't have that then those trials that come along will be so much more difficult to get through. Just make sure you don't put the blame that belongs on your husband's shoulders onto your son, kwim? For example, it's not Jonathan's fault that his father won't spend time with him. It's your husband's fault for not manning up and doing the right thing. He's using his past as an excuse not to be a good father. It's not Jonathan's fault. It's your husband's fault.
I'm sorry you're having such a tough time of it. I'll be praying for you today.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 4:13:15 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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Thank you for the hopeful words and encouragement! Everyone who has responded has lifted my heart.
I realized today that this boy has turned into an emotional bully. He keeps pushing and pushing to get what he wants until the person gives in and gives up. My husband has given up and allowed him to stay on the phone with his girlfriend so as not to make Jonathan angry...When he's angry he's a very unpleasant person.
Jonathan has had that aspect to his personality since he was very young, and unfortunately, he's gotten his way some of the time, and that has reinforced his desire to keep using this strategy.
I can't stay on the computer for long b/c older son wants to play video games. But realizing that Jonathan is a bully was a big leap forward. That means if I give up on him he will have no hope of getting out of this pattern - he will think he has gotten his way yet again.
I will post again later on. I am still tired but I thank God that I found this forum last night. I am encouraged that God will open a pathway for us. But I have to say that I do think our family is pretty messed up, and I just don't know if we're going to survive this. God only knows.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 5:17:38 PM
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shadowspring
Posts: 620
Joined: 5/27/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hey_mom
Hello fellow Christian parents,
I just found this website after googling "when can I legally kick my kid out of the house?" That is what our family life has descended to. I will describe what we have been through and perhaps you can give me some suggestions or see some possibilities I cannot.
We have 2 sons, one almost 18 and a senior, the other age 15 and a freshman. They are both in the same Jesuit high school, but the older boy is a straight-A student with a very nice personality. His brother, on the other hand, has been giving us hell since he turned about 12 or 13. He was diagnosed with ADHD in 3rd grade, for being too hyper, talkative, impulsive, etc. He's always been difficult but his teen years have been an absolute living hell. He's taken things from us, he has lied constantly, he's been surly, disobedient, ugly-natured, and profane. I have to put a lock on a closet and put things in there that I don't want him to have access to. Isn't that pathetic??
He takes meds for school, and while I don't think they do everything they are supposed to do, if he didn't take anything, he'd already have flunked out of school. He refuses to take the twice-a-day kind, so I can't adjust his dosage at all because he refuses to cooperate. In fact, he pretty much refuses to cooperate with me at all. All I've ever wanted is for him to succeed in school and in life, but he sees me as his own personal Nazi and thinks I am pathetic (I have read his journal and I know he hates me.) I've tried every parenting technique in the book, from positive feedback to rewards to incentives to punishments and more, but nothing has worked for him. I keep thinking there must be a key for his heart but I can't find one!
His father and I have been married 20 years this coming Tuesday, and while I wouldn't describe our family as jolly, we do have supper together every night and we've always supported our sons as well as we can with whatever they want to do. Jonathan is capable of so much more than he is doing, and isn't contributing to the family in any way except to rebel and be insubordinate. When things get really bad between him and his father, my husband has struck him a few times, which of course does not help their relationship. I have done the same, he drives me right to the edge of sanity. We used to do things as a family but Jonathan is so unpleasant that we don't go very many places any more, because of his attitude.
He currently has few privileges, he has no cell phone of his own, no computer, gets a few hours of video game time a week but still does not read or study on his own. His grades have been so bad we added private tutoring which is helping some but then his attitude is still ugly. He has a girlfriend at the girls' school next to his school, I think she's a nice girl, and we have been limiting him to one hour on the phone a day but I was gone for a week and his dad just let him do whatever so now I have cut back and I'm the bad guy again.
I have prayed and prayed until my knees are sore, I have cried buckets of tears, I have yelled at him and also tried talking to him in earnest, I've tried everything I know and I feel tonight as if I really have had enough. He refused to go to church with us tonight and then he later called us, his own family members, "you people," as if we were some total strangers.
I want to send him away from here. But since he's only 15, my options are few. I'm sorry this isn't very coherent, I'm just in great distress and found this forum, I hope God led me here and someone can help. I really want to kick him out. I am praying about it, but if I had somewhere to send him, I would. The other limitation is that he is on a gluten-free diet and no one I know can deal with his dietary restrictions. I have tons of cousins and one of them might take him for a while but the food thing rules that out. Boarding schools are the same, plus no one seems to want the messed-up kids any more - all of the schools I have looked into are all "Excellent students will thrive here, blah blah blah." Whatever happened to reform school??
Please help me. I am not even sure I love this punk who has taken over my son's body and soul. I'm not proud of myself when I call him a jerk, but HE IS ONE!!! Help.
Note to OP: I have not read any one else's posts, and I am only responding to the OP's original post.
I feel for you, sister!
What you are describing is one angry young man. I had a daughter who was much the same at that age, though every child is different in some ways. She hated me and treated me with contempt, though her Dad seemed to have more influence with her. She would openly despise me but at least be moderately subdued in her responses to her Dad.
Since I can't really know you or have any direct answers for you, I will share with you about me and hope it helps somehow.
#1 Our marriage was not healthy and we glossed over this as a contributing factor when it turned out in the end to be a major factor in our daughter's pain and anger. Honestly, we thought things were not that bad. My husbands passive-agressive behavior was annoying but neither of us recognized it as the extremely damaging and emotionally abusive mess that is really was!
This would make things worse because our very smart daughter could see that he did not respect me, and then she would be way more verbally abusive than he ever would, but he would not correct her unless prompted. In college now, she recently learned that the phrase for this is "tacit approval".
We attended a marriage intensive seminar with Joel and Kathy Davisson and read their books. By putting into practice what we learned there, my husband has pretty much single-handedly cleared up much of our family's problems. We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. There is work involved, and it is our own work.
#2 My husband was not loving God from the heart. I was seeking the Lord with my whole heart most of our marriage, but a father has the most influence whether he uses it for good or evil. There is an old saying, "the fish rots from the head". I was so angry about this truth, that my husband's passivity was NOT a neutral influence, that it was an extremely negative influence, and that no matter how passionately I served the Lord I could not make up for his deficit.
Thankfully when he understood that truth, he stopped being just a "good" Christian and started living as a true disciple of Jesus Christ- praying on his own time, memorizing scripture on his own time, singing worship songs from his heart to the Lord on his own time and of his own free will.
A husband and father seeking the Lord with his whole heart is unstoppable for good! And I don't mean going to church or serving on the board, I mean serving the Lord in his own time and from his own heart. There is no substitute.
#3 God's love never fails. When my husband committed to live a life of agape love to me, his wife, things started changing around here. We took full responsibility as a couple for all we had done wrong through the years (you might start with yelling, losing your temper and saying things that were harsh or cruel, and in for those times of physical aggression you mentioned in your post.) We admitted that we were hypocritical in the way we were living in many ways, and asked her forgiveness. We committed to loving our daughter unconditionally.
#4 Rules and consequences are separate from love and affection. We doubled our love and affection, even though our rules standards did not change.
#5 I kept praying, and refused to give up on either God or my daughter. God took me down a path of revelation and repentance in my life and my husband's that I did not expect, yet it was the way to healing for our family. So don't stop praying and worshiping the Lord on your own, and pray that your husband will be free to join you soon. My husband kneels beside the bed with me every night now and praises God for his goodness and prays for our family with me. This after 21 years of marriage!
My daughter's rebellion started when she was 11/12 and ended in stages starting at 16. But when my husband got serious about living for the Lord and loving his wife and family, changes have happened fast! She is home from college for the summer, and for the first time in many years, I can honestly say it is a blessing to have her around. She is making wise decisions that honor the Lord, she is more loving and considerate than she has been her whole teens, and she is returning the affection we showered on her.
So that's my story. I don't know if it will help or not. I hope it does, or that some other post here will help. I remember when I was thinking the same things and so broken-hearted, just wanting to be rid of her. I read over and over again about the Syro-Phonecian women whose daughter was delivered from a demon, and said Lord if you'd do it for that Gentile women, you'll do it for me. Please heal my daughter!
It took way more time than I would have liked, but if we persist and do not give up, the Lord has promised a reward for those who do not faint. 
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/3/2009 5:17:39 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8200
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hey_mom
I realized today that this boy has turned into an emotional bully.
If he is, it may well only be that he feels he has to be there for himself as (in his mind) nobody else is.
quote:
I will post again later on. I am still tired but I thank God that I found this forum last night. I am encouraged that God will open a pathway for us. But I have to say that I do think our family is pretty messed up, and I just don't know if we're going to survive this. God only knows.
Something else you might want to consider is seeing a qualified professional counsellor who specialises in family therapy. I am not talking about a psychiatrist but a psychologist. It might help even if it's just you that goes initially. Maybe later on, you and your husband could go, perhaps the three of you.
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 10:08:33 AM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline
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I will consider counseling again. I know I am probably depressed, we've had so much trauma over the last several years.
I keep thinking I can find the answer for Jonathan but you know, God is his answer. And all I can do is show God's face to Jonathan and my husband in the best way I know how. It doesn't seem I am making progress but the post above gives me hope.
I know that if my husband had engaged with Jonathan more all along, we wouldn't be here now.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 10:36:59 AM
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bolt.
Posts: 1757
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: online
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Now, that's far to simplistic, and almost a blame statement. If your husband had engaged more, there is a possibility that things might not be so bad... but it's not magic.
I'm thinking the stick-to-your-guns idea of holding him to a strict standard no matter how he reacts may be a good idea, and so might sending him somewhere that will be able to do that in an effective way...
But in the interests of getting all plausible options on the table (not that I am reccomending this -- I am only reccomending that you think it through) Ask yourself, "What would it look like if I treated him as a 'boarder'?" (A boarder is someone who pays for a room and meals in a private home, such as a college student or a single woman.)
So, if you stopped trying to guide his behaviour completely, except to limit him if he makes other members of the household uncomfortable, what sorts of things do you think he might start doing... Make a list in columns
(A) Unwise things, mildly risky things, frustrating or worrying things.
(B) Genuinely dangerous things, things that are almost certain to damage his future, things that hurt other people deeply.
(C) Illegal or immoral things.
(D) Insane things.
When you've made that list, go item-by-item and say is it "very likely" he will do it, "probable" or "possible, but equally possible he will not". Use your brain, not your fears.
This will give you a good solid prediction to go by. If most things are A & B, and the things in B, C & D are not so likely, then it might be a viable plan to attempt an approach like I am discribing, particularly for the summer, since there is not the possibility that he will immediately drop out of school (which would be a 'B' choice).
If you want more thoughts on this possible approach, let me know and I'll post in greater detail.
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