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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end!
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 10:50:36 AM
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laura...
Posts: 3277
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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What you are describing sounds like mental illness. Get your son back to the psychiatrist. Document, document, document his behavior. Don't say to the doc, "I think this, I think that." State things like, "He does _____________. His behavior has changed from ______ to _______." Take his diary with you. Do it while you still have the authority to get him help. Once he turns 18 you will have no authority to get him the help he needs. Mental illness is treatable. Will he hate you for it? Yes. So what. He needs help.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 11:09:07 AM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
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Yes, please, do give me more suggestions. I cannot understand how to detach from my child - can do that pretty effectively with my husband since he is an adult and responsible for his own decisions, but with our son, his choices are all tangled up with our lives, so that when he makes bad choices we all seem to suffer.
I am intrigued by your approach.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 12:17:10 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1758
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
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Well, the first suggestion is to do the actuall analysis of what you consider would be his likely response to such 'freedom'. There's no sense discussing the method if you think that it is "probable" that he would start threatening to kill his brother or start using illegal drugs ("C" choices). I'd love to see your list so that I can be more specific.
At a basic level, it's about acting like you believe him to be an adult (even though you clearly do know that he is not) and doing so convincingly enough that he buys it and starts to act like one.
So, imagine you really had a 21 year old boarder that lived in that room; he pays you rent and food costs monthly. This fictional boarder will be called "Frank". Frank is attending his first year at your local community college. Frank pays extra for food because of his special diet, so it's not too much trouble for you to accomodate his needs. (Not that I'm suggesting your son actually pay at his age, just that imitating the interpersponal dynamic may be useful.) How does a 'landlord' in a shared home treat "Frank"?
As an example:
Do you discuss Frank's phone habits with him? Not usually, unless his behaviour is effecting you. Frank might be talking so much that you miss calls, or he might be talking loudly while you try to sleep... Then you would speak to him, of course, like an adult, and set some reasonable limits for living together in harmony.
But do you worry how phone chats effect Frank's mood? No. Are you concerned that he is getting to entangled with his girlfriend? No. Are you concerned that he's not getting enough sleep? No. Those are things a mother tries to manage (up to a certain age) and rightly so, but this is a bit of a dirastic plan. (The plan is to restore the mutual respect and harmony in the relationship so that it can be rebuilt on an adult level.)
If you had chosen this plan with proper forethought, you already established that, if given his freedom, your son would be very likely to chat non-stop with his girlfriend... but you decided that was an "A" choice -- unwise behaviour, so (if/when) you chose the plan you had to knowingly accept that he was going choose a lot of "A"s. You decided those were his risks to take and you weren't going to get involved with "A" issues (outside of prayer and asked-for advice).
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 1:01:41 PM
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Martachoo
Posts: 119
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Pharibeault.. You are responding to the OP but I am curious. What is this approach supposed to accomplish? I don't get it. How does one make such a list and disconnect according to a rating system? What is gained by treating your child like and adult renter in your home? How does that improve the parent/child relationship? Do you know anyone who has done this?
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 1:24:35 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1758
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From: Canada
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It's designed to remove the despair, contempt and hatred from the situation by limiting parent-child conflict to issues that are of critical importance. So the conflict happens less frequently, and all parties involved get used to the idea of speaking to each other in calm, rational polite ways (the way we speak to strangers) more often. Then, hopefully, the underlying feelings of affection, desire for approval and closeness will begin to regrow without the element of parental authority over those "A" level things.
I know people who have done this without the precipitating conflict (they gave up on "A" things during the teen years as a premeditated choice within their parenting strategy). I don't know anybody who has done it in a conflict situation this severe. However, many young adults abandon rebellion when they are let off of leading strings and allowed to mess things up in their own stupid way, without risking their home-safety.
The list is simply to evaluate (as a parent) whether it is too risky to try it. If there is a high risk of "C" and "D" then, obviously, that's not the situation to try this plan.
I also did not mean to imply that the parents show as little affection to their son as they would to "Frank". Their focus should be on rebuilding the relationship, starting with 2-way respect, but also including plenty of affirmation, attention, affection, inclusive activities, love-language stuff etc. I'm sorry if I implied any degree of inter-personal exclusion. In my assessment, the familiy members aren't so warm with each other right now anyways, so both the respect and the affection would have to be intentionally added.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 4:03:55 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
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I understand what this method might accomplish. I will have to think about whether or not I can apply it. I suppose in some ways that is what my husband is already doing, when he allowed our son to use the phone pretty much at will while I was out of town. I don't think it's a plan, though. It's just that my husband doesn't want the kinds of conflict that Jonathan seems to thrive on. Jonathan and I are much more likely to get into a conflict - yes, i am strong-willed in my own way - and I feel much more invested in Jonathan's choices, probably because I see his rebellion from a Christian vantage point, where my husband is not as concerned about that particular focus. He doesn't think in terms of Jonathan being in rebellion against God, just that he's a pain in the butt and stroppy.
The tricky part is that I have to treat Jonathan more like a child than an adult, because with ADHD comes a lack of maturity - up to a 30% delay in maturity from the emotional age to the chrono age of the child. So, although he is chronologically 15, emotionally and maturationally he is closer to age 11. That is a huge part of the problem with ADHD or ADD teens - they want to be grown up and like their peers but they are not ready for many of the same types of privileges and responsibilities like driving. So they get frustrated and angry about that...yet we aren't going to hand the car keys to an 11-year-old!!
It's almost time for him to get home. I have to go and get my game face on in order to deal with him. I cannot thank you guys enough for the helpful advice and prayers. I do not have the answers but God does!!!
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 6:00:48 PM
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Martachoo
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pharibeault... Thanks for the clarification. You're suggesting a structured and deliberate way of picking the parent/child battles wisely.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 6:18:56 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1758
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From: Canada
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Yes, and emotionally unplugging from the idea that a parent should prevent all of a teen's poor choices.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 7:30:56 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8202
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hey_mom
The tricky part is that I have to treat Jonathan more like a child than an adult
That actually may be a major part of the problem.
Maybe things would work better if you treated him as a mid-teen with special needs rather than as a child.
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 9:52:16 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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Well, I probably have some growth in that area! :) I like to think I treat him as much like a young teen as I can...but probably a "mid-teen" as you call him, one I still can't trust.
It gets into a bad spiral when the kid does stuff that breaks our trust...then we tighten up on him, and he can then feel victimized, justified, he acts out more and gets nastier. It's a merry-go-round of dysfunction...
I am a slow learner. I try my best not to make the same mistakes, but as Paul said, I do what I don't want to do and I don't do what I do want to do!
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 9:57:22 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
Yes, and emotionally unplugging from the idea that a parent should prevent all of a teen's poor choices.
I guess I think that Jonathan's bad choices could be *really* bad...and continue to haunt him for years. He's done things like cuss out a classmate in emails...using really ugly language. I explained to him after shutting down that email account that his classmate's parents could have him arrested for harrassment if they wanted to, and also that whatever he wrote could be preserved for a lifetime and brought out again at any point in time. That's hard to understand for a kid, but it's true. These accounts can be their own undoing and they don't even realize it.
Then there are things like drugs and alcohol, premarital sex, etc.
The poor choices I could have made when I was his age were serious in their own way, but somehow our times just seem very...dire, you know?
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 10:15:20 PM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 1462
Joined: 3/13/2009
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Just to say that my first husband left very suddenly when my youngest daugther was 14. life with her for the next few years was dreadful. I dont know how how I got through it alone with no other parent to help.She was desperately unhappy and depressed and took it all out on me becuase I was the only one who she could be herself with. However I understood this and didnt take it personally.
She was always out, came back in the early hours (if at all) and I never knew where she was and that was her way of escaping. However God looked after her and made sure that she didnt come to any physical harm She drank a lot and I suspect she took drugs.
However, she is now 23 and is a different person. It took a long time but she has come out the other side and gets on really well with her step dad and has a steady boyfriend of three years. She has a job that she loves in a large library. It has been very gradual but she really is a different person, so believe me there is hope and light at the end of the tunnel..
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/4/2009 11:19:20 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
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I'm glad your daughter came out the other side. Thank you for sharing your story, it is a very hopeful one!
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/18/2009 10:52:36 PM
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IwillseekHim
Posts: 1778
Joined: 5/17/2009
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I can soooo relate to ya, mama. I have three boys, ages 20, 16 and 14. The first two were the ideal babies. Then came Alex, a strong willed child in every sense of the word  , I mean straight out of the womb, I knew that I had my job cut out for me! Even now, especially now, I have to believe that the Lord would never put more on me than I can handle. He's given me the task to love and nuture him and I do to the best of my ability. Do I want to pull my hair out? Oh yea, every day. But I keep on because it's my job that I have been given. Now that doesn't mean that I don't count the days down til he graduates and can leave the nest. We got approximately 1463 days left(that is if he can successfully pass eighth grade which is looking real iffy)! Your in my prayers, friend....Hang in there, God will supply you with the stregnth. Gotta go, he just walked in and i wouldn't want him to read this one!
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/27/2009 9:53:09 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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Hi there,
Thank you for the message! yes, we knew Jonathan would be a challenge since before he was born, but he's taken it into a new realm since middle school.
An update for everyone who helped us before....We are scheduled to talk to a Christian counselor on Monday. Things really went bad on Monday night, Memorial Day, and my husband ended up throwing something at the dinner table, at me, and cursing. I'm actually glad it happened because it is impossible to deny that we need professional help. I was pretty freaked out at the time and wasn't sure I was even going to stay in the house that night, but because Jonathan is taking his final exams at school this week, I decided to stick it out for his sake.
His dad is not a violent person, he's just frustrated and tired of all the hassle and pain. If I thought we were in an unsafe situation, I would leave with no hesitation.
I am glad that we will get family counseling, as I think I told you guys, the last time I tried this, it became just Jonathan as the damaged member of the family, and it's so much more than that.
But today, even in the midst of the chaos I could feel the peace that passes all understanding....I have people praying for me and I can literally FEEL those prayers....God told me that his grace is sufficient for the day, and that today is another day when He can work a miracle in my son's life and my husband's life...I will never, ever give up hope in the Lord! Praising him in the storm, and grateful for this forum.....
Heymom
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/28/2009 12:07:35 AM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 6477
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
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quote:
He started to be a skater complete with all that attitude, and then I allowed him to skate down a hill, he fell off and got a skull fracture and I told him no more skating without a helmet EVER
This jumped out at me BIG TIME. If he had enough of an impact to fracture his skull, he also has had a traumatic brain injury of some degree. Also, from my research, someone who already was prone to ADHD/ADD would be more prone to problems from a TBI. This can change someone's personality, ability to reason, ability to cope, all kinds of things. Not that that is an excuse for the things going on, or that you should allow it...but if you can find out the "why" of some of it, you may be able to deal with it more easily. Have you talked to a doctor about this possibility at all? If not, do some research...TBIs are huge, huge, huge things.
_____________________________
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/28/2009 5:56:04 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
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Yes, I realize that. His fracture was described as "mild to minor," and he had very few symptoms from it, no surgery was necessary, it was like a severe concussion. He slept a lot the first 2 days in the hospital and all his tests were normal. He had a little swelling but no damage that was seen on MRI. He didn't even have the headaches that normally occur with a skull fracture. Just sleepiness that gradually abated, and a lump on his head, and road rash.
He was already in rebellion before the injury, otherwise I would think it could be the TBI. It still might be playing a part, but I'm more inclined to think he's just royally hacked at me for taking his board away after the fall. Maybe that was wrong of me, I just told him he HAD to wear equipment and be at a skate park and he just wanted to look cool and skate around the neighborhood. He started skating because a friend of his did it, and he wanted to be just like this boy and wanted to be around him all the time. Jonathan is headstrong but easily influenced by others, if you can believe that! It's the very worst combination of traits to have! I always thought he'd be a natural leader but it turns out he's a follower and gets "stuck" on his idols like glue. sigh....
I will tell the counselor about the injury and if he sees any reason to look into it, I will have Jonathan do another MRI to see if there was any hidden damage. That is a good point and I won't play it down. We don't have insurance but I can save up for any testing he needs.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/31/2009 7:01:09 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
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On Friday, with no notice, as I was getting ready to go to a meeting, a CPS worker came to my door...it seems that "someone" has called them to investigate child abuse...Jonathan has been talking a lot to his girlfriend and I'm sure that the two of them collaborated to make the call. The CPS guy went to Jonathan's school first to interview him (gee that must have been exciting!) and then came here. He asked me all kinds of questions about the night Jonathan put his fist through the wall and then got even more emotional...wish I'd told the police to just take him into psych. eval. that night, but the next week was final exams and I thought if we could just get through that, all would be well. Ha ha....
I was freaking out at first and then I got angry...Jonathan called for a ride home after his exams were over, during the interview and I told him, "I'll be a little later, there's a guy from CPS in the living room right now..." He decided on the spot not to come home, but to go home with a friend of his...We allowed this and in fact, he stayed over there all weekend and the rest of the family went on a mini-vacation without him. It was nice, actually - he always creates an "F-U" attitude wherever he is, and he's a problem to us when we all go on trips. So it was a nice little break. If I'd stayed at home I would have been crying my eyes out and thinking up lectures to spout, not that any of them have worked before....
My hubby is so smart about stuff like this. What he said is that Jonathan and the GF have now deployed their "nuclear option" and were expecting some different results....so since we have nothing to fear and nothing to defend, we do...NOTHING....this will cause them to wonder what is happening....much more effective than if I start crying and yelling and foaming at the mouth.
So far, we have said NOTHING about Friday at all, neither has he brought it up. I know he won't, but I'm sure his head is messed up right now, wondering WHY we aren't throwing a fit.
Tomorrow we go to see a Christian counselor. We will see what happens after that. There is a possibility the school will uninvite him to return next year, but that cannot be helped. Whatever happens next, everything has already been set in motion by two 15-year-old kids, one of whom has lied to the other about what is happening in his own home.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/31/2009 7:08:37 PM
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manda59
Posts: 8202
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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I'd just to reiterate laura's post here
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
What you are describing sounds like mental illness. Get your son back to the psychiatrist. Document, document, document his behavior. Don't say to the doc, "I think this, I think that." State things like, "He does _____________. His behavior has changed from ______ to _______." Take his diary with you. Do it while you still have the authority to get him help. Once he turns 18 you will have no authority to get him the help he needs. Mental illness is treatable. Will he hate you for it? Yes. So what. He needs help.
Also, could I just ask: this Christian counsellor you're seeing tomorrow, is he/she properly trained and qualified? Do they have a professional practice?
_____________________________
"Manda.....you said what I tried to say, just much better"
sharonjef, October 2009
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 5/31/2009 8:27:29 PM
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mrf084
Posts: 243
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Burden and stress from caring for your teen have caused you to react to his provocations in an incorrect fashion. You have then felt guilty and upset. He has seen this and further manipulated the situation because he could.
He feels thrill at his own power. Separation and evaluation are critical. Your son feels consequences but responds with consequences of his own. This isn't a battle with your son. He has sucked you into one though.
Loving someone isn't always about being a wet noodle or a sounding board for their vitiriol. Sometimes you love someone by ostracisizing them into correct behavior. You still express love and well-wishes for them, but they have to understand that you won't tolerate "it" anymore. You don't have to be clear about "it". They either know or the introspection will do them good.
Your son has been grafted into the world of teen rebellion being promulgated by the current model. This model is far more destructive to Christain moral thinking than any previous model. It literally "spits" in the face of everything authoritative and promotes the so-called virtues of self-indulgent lifestyle to the max. He is living for self, only he doesn't realize the smallness of his lifestyle.
You can remove him from your presence in such a way that his behavior will be modified and the sources of the aberrant behavior will be eliminated ie: military school, treatment, scared straight programs, boot camp. In any of these, outside influence isn't allowed, except for the scared straight program because of its limited time frame. This might be the path for you. It certainly appears so to me. You have tried freedom to make the right choices as Christ's example illustrates to us. He has rejected that. You have tried wise counsel. He has rejected that. It might be wise to show him the choice he is making for his life and the stark contrast to Christ with one of these methods. We as sinners are quite often unaware of our need for a savior. These are some of the things just short of prison that could possibly show this need to a troubled young man.
Reintroduce Christ to him by asking one of the men or women at your church to mentor him when he is restored to your home. Pray through it all that wisdom be granted and the strength to handle the heartache associated with hard choices be installed in your spirit. I pray that every thing works out for your family in such a way that this experience will have been a blessing for you, in Jesus name, Amen. God Bless
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 6/5/2009 3:59:55 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
I'd just to reiterate laura's post here
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
What you are describing sounds like mental illness. Get your son back to the psychiatrist. Document, document, document his behavior. Don't say to the doc, "I think this, I think that." State things like, "He does _____________. His behavior has changed from ______ to _______." Take his diary with you. Do it while you still have the authority to get him help. Once he turns 18 you will have no authority to get him the help he needs. Mental illness is treatable. Will he hate you for it? Yes. So what. He needs help.
Also, could I just ask: this Christian counsellor you're seeing tomorrow, is he/she properly trained and qualified? Do they have a professional practice?
Yes, he is in a professional practice and is qualified. If we don't see good results I have some other places I can call and visit, that are more experienced with ADHD kids and their challenges. But it has to be a good fit for all 3 of us, so I will continue with this counselor if he gets some results. Thanks for the reminders, it is very good to be certain of credentials.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 6/5/2009 4:09:48 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrf084
Burden and stress from caring for your teen have caused you to react to his provocations in an incorrect fashion. You have then felt guilty and upset. He has seen this and further manipulated the situation because he could.
He feels thrill at his own power. Separation and evaluation are critical. Your son feels consequences but responds with consequences of his own. This isn't a battle with your son. He has sucked you into one though.
Loving someone isn't always about being a wet noodle or a sounding board for their vitiriol. Sometimes you love someone by ostracisizing them into correct behavior. You still express love and well-wishes for them, but they have to understand that you won't tolerate "it" anymore. You don't have to be clear about "it". They either know or the introspection will do them good.
Your son has been grafted into the world of teen rebellion being promulgated by the current model. This model is far more destructive to Christain moral thinking than any previous model. It literally "spits" in the face of everything authoritative and promotes the so-called virtues of self-indulgent lifestyle to the max. He is living for self, only he doesn't realize the smallness of his lifestyle.
You can remove him from your presence in such a way that his behavior will be modified and the sources of the aberrant behavior will be eliminated ie: military school, treatment, scared straight programs, boot camp. In any of these, outside influence isn't allowed, except for the scared straight program because of its limited time frame. This might be the path for you. It certainly appears so to me. You have tried freedom to make the right choices as Christ's example illustrates to us. He has rejected that. You have tried wise counsel. He has rejected that. It might be wise to show him the choice he is making for his life and the stark contrast to Christ with one of these methods. We as sinners are quite often unaware of our need for a savior. These are some of the things just short of prison that could possibly show this need to a troubled young man.
Reintroduce Christ to him by asking one of the men or women at your church to mentor him when he is restored to your home. Pray through it all that wisdom be granted and the strength to handle the heartache associated with hard choices be installed in your spirit. I pray that every thing works out for your family in such a way that this experience will have been a blessing for you, in Jesus name, Amen. God Bless
Yes, yes, yes! We've tightened up so much that our parenting style is now a mix of neglectful and controlling. It's not all Jonathan's fault, it's that neither my husband nor I have the tools to deal with this kind of rebellion and we need help. There have been so many times over the years when I can clearly see the gaps that I had in my own up bringing, and this is one of those times.
At this point we are not removing him from the home, but I have a great resource if we need to. The "boot camp" type of situation has disappeared over the last seveal years because of lawsuits from kids getting injured or dying. It's not easy even finding places that will take a teenager, let alone be Christian. Most of the camps and stuff are now for CPS placements only. But there is an organization out of Phoenix that will take him today, or tomorrow, or next month, if things go suddenly much worse.
Another complication is that my husband has a much more distant relationship with Christ, almost like an unbeliever. We are the same faith but we express that faith so differently that it seems as if we are unequally yoked. This will be revealed as we go deeper into the counseling. It's time to face that and find a way to get through it.
God is merciful.
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 6/7/2009 8:49:40 AM
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veryblessedone
Posts: 38
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From: the land of oz, Kansas
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i dont need to read the whole thing about your son who has adhd and i say do not kick him out. rather, other ways can be done to not have to go that way.
we have a 16 yr old who has adhd and at times we feel the same way., but in this area i am blessed because my hubby is also adhd and he understands why jeremy does what he does, so we go into other avenues and it's working slowly but it's working.
i wish i had more time to write them down right now, but i do need to get into shower and get ready for church. i will come back later and go into detail. as a mom of a adhd son, i feel your pain my dear i really do, and being married to a adhd hubby well i live it in double.
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With Joy Because Of Jesus!!!
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RE: Please help - 15 year old son has me at my wit's end! - 6/8/2009 12:35:01 PM
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Hey_mom
Posts: 52
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline
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Thank you. I will look forward to your next reply.
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