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How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 1:27:24 AM
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IamLibertarian
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And why do the Jews not belive he is? Isn't there some contradictory in Isaiah? I could be completely wrong about that but I know some of you will have the answers. Thanks in advance =)
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 1:42:59 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
How do we know Jesus is the Son of God?
Because the Scriptures plainly reveal this truth again and again.
quote:
And why do the Jews not belive he is?
Because their expectations of their Messiah were not in line with God's revelation of Messiah. Repentance is as necessary as faith, and they did not want to repent. They also wanted to go about establishing their own righteousness, instead of acknowledging with Isaiah that all their righteousnesses were as filthy rags in the sight of God.
quote:
Isn't there some contradictory in Isaiah?
There is nothing contradictory in Isaiah. Christ is both the Suffering Servant and the glorious Lord of hosts. He is both the Lamb of God and the Lion of the tribe of Judah. This only appears contradictory until we understand the character of God and of Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 1:09:57 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 1139
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How do we know Jesus is the Son of God?
Because God Himself said so:
Mt 3:17
... and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
Mt 17:5
... While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
Mr 1:11
... and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
Mr 9:7
Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"
Lu 3:22
... and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 1:18:02 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 1139
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From: Georgia
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quote:
And why do the Jews not belive he is?
The Judaism of today is not the Judaism of Jesus' day. Not all Jews turned away from Jesus. Prior to Jesus, the rabbis interpreted Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. After Jesus, they had to find a new interpretation.
I recently heard a former Jew say that he asked his rabbi about Is. 53. And the reply was that although it certainly looks like it is describing Jesus, it, of course could not be Jesus because Jesus was not the Messiah. Therefore, it must be referring to Israel as a whole being the obedient suffering servant of God.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 1:42:14 PM
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GodsMusic
Posts: 713
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From: Arkansas
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Isaiah has been nicknamed the "5th Gospel". It's such a beautiful book.
To the OP:
Here's a great passage from 2nd Peter that comes to mind:
1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
< Message edited by GodsMusic -- 5/6/2009 2:05:45 PM >
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 1:48:14 PM
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rabstark
Posts: 109
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
The Judaism of today is not the Judaism of Jesus' day. Not all Jews turned away from Jesus. Prior to Jesus, the rabbis interpreted Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. After Jesus, they had to find a new interpretation.
I recently heard a former Jew say that he asked his rabbi about Is. 53. And the reply was that although it certainly looks like it is describing Jesus, it, of course could not be Jesus because Jesus was not the Messiah. Therefore, it must be referring to Israel as a whole being the obedient suffering servant of God.
Actually modern (orthodox, at any rate) Judaism has more in common with the Judaism of Jesus' day than you might think. Modern Rabbinic Judaism is a direct outgrowth (with 2,000 years of evolution, obviously) of the Pharisaic Judaism of Jesus' day.
The interpretation of the "suffering servant" of Isaiah 53 as being Israel rather than the Messiah, is actually a (relatively) recent development. By that I mean that it didn't develop right after Jesus' fulfillment of it as you seem to be implying. It was first taught by the Jewish theologian Rashi around the 11th century AD, and didn't become a prominent interpretation for a long time. The Messianic interpretation had continued to be the dominant interpretation for over 1,000 years after Jesus, and Rashi's attempt at re-interpretation was strongly opposed by the 12th century Jewish theologian, Maimonides. It's only been in the last several hundred years that it's become the dominant way of interpreting the "suffering servant" passages, and even then, it's not universal. The Chabad branch of Torah (Orthodox) Judaism follow the Messianic interpretation of Isaiah 53, but apply it to their late Rebbi, Menachem Mendel Schneerson.
Isaiah 53 is avoided by most Jewish theologians and scholars precisely because the "Israel as the Suffering Servant" interpretation is so hard to justify. In Jewish theological circles it's sometimes referred to as "the forbidden passage" because it's so problematic. The standard response amongst the more orthodox who actually believe in a coming Messiah, is that Isaiah 53 is too difficult to understand, so we'll have to wait for Elijah to explain it when he comes to herald Messiah's coming.
_____________________________
Romans 10:1-2
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 2:02:52 PM
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DougHorton
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Like I said,
quote:
The Judaism of today is not the Judaism of Jesus' day.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 3:57:55 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 5724
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
And why do the Jews not belive he is?
The Judaism of today is not the Judaism of Jesus' day. Not all Jews turned away from Jesus. Prior to Jesus, the rabbis interpreted Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. After Jesus, they had to find a new interpretation.
I recently heard a former Jew say that he asked his rabbi about Is. 53. And the reply was that although it certainly looks like it is describing Jesus, it, of course could not be Jesus because Jesus was not the Messiah. Therefore, it must be referring to Israel as a whole being the obedient suffering servant of God.
Whenever any of us reject the "truth" we have to
rely upon circular reasoning. And boy, does it confuse
the masses. lol.
Jesus fulfilled all the Messianic Prophecies, but since
they rejected Him (which was predicted) they had to come
up with something else.
Like we do today when we reject the truths we hear.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 8:44:33 PM
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Christfollower2000
Posts: 78
Joined: 2/18/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
How do we know Jesus is the Son of God?
Because God Himself said so:
Mt 3:17
... and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
Mt 17:5
... While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
Mr 1:11
... and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
Mr 9:7
Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"
Lu 3:22
... and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
Many people do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Is this due to A.) Outright rejecting what they know to be absolutely true in light of reading the scriptures (as they are self evident) B.) They are not convinced by these scriptures and thus they are confused. C.) God has not revealed the truth to them yet. D.) God has revealed the truth to everyone on the planet, but yet only some choose to listen.
I am curious as to what percentage of intellect, reason and revelation is required to understand that Jesus is the Son of God. Is it all reason or all revelation or some combination? Why is it that some are not convinced? There is no one who will deny that Barack Obama is the President of the U.S. Why is this factual statement so easily understood but the most important factual statement in the history of the world so unconvincing to so many?
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 8:46:33 PM
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IamLibertarian
Posts: 380
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Thank you for all the responses. You guys answered all the questions I can really think of, but, if you happen to come across more questions, answers, history, etc, I'd love to read it!
Cheers!
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 8:54:02 PM
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IamLibertarian
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/5/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
How do we know Jesus is the Son of God?
Because God Himself said so:
Mt 3:17
... and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."
Mt 17:5
... While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"
Mr 1:11
... and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
Mr 9:7
Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, "This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!"
Lu 3:22
... and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased."
Many people do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Is this due to A.) Outright rejecting what they know to be absolutely true in light of reading the scriptures (as they are self evident) B.) They are not convinced by these scriptures and thus they are confused. C.) God has not revealed the truth to them yet. D.) God has revealed the truth to everyone on the planet, but yet only some choose to listen.
I am curious as to what percentage of intellect, reason and revelation is required to understand that Jesus is the Son of God. Is it all reason or all revelation or some combination? Why is it that some are not convinced? There is no one who will deny that Barack Obama is the President of the U.S. Why is this factual statement so easily understood but the most important factual statement in the history of the world so unconvincing to so many?
Because acknowledging Jesus as Lord requires Faith, and extreme faith at that (as it should). Faith is a hard thing to catch with our culture as it is, satans influence, our own understanding (or lack thereof), etc, etc.
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 9:12:09 PM
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Christfollower2000
Posts: 78
Joined: 2/18/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tuckonline
Because acknowledging Jesus as Lord requires Faith, and extreme faith at that (as it should). Faith is a hard thing to catch with our culture as it is, satans influence, our own understanding (or lack thereof), etc, etc.
So where does the responsibility lie? If Satan can influence people to not have faith in Jesus is it their fault? If Satan stops people from being saved how can they be held accountable? It seems a bit strange to burn someone in hell for something that was impossible because Satan was stopping them. In other words if they had a choice they would choose to have faith in Jesus but they can't because Satan stops them. The game is rigged.
Which is more true, that Obama is the President or that Jesus is the Son of God? What Doug is suggesting is that the scriptures make it perfectly clear, without a doubt that Jesus is the Son of God. You would not need to have faith if this were the case. Because faith means believing something that is not 100% established as fact. Do you believe in cars? Do you believe in Obama? I am not trying to attack the idea that Jesus is the Son of God, rather how is it that people come to this knowledge. Is it through self-evident scripture, faith, revelation from God....etc?
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/6/2009 9:49:08 PM
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IamLibertarian
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/5/2009
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quote:
Do you believe in Obama?
No...but that is another topic
quote:
I am not trying to attack the idea that Jesus is the Son of God, rather how is it that people come to this knowledge. Is it through self-evident scripture, faith, revelation from God....etc?
Scripture. But in order to believe in the scripture you have to have faith in the writings, writers, and most importantly, in God. Am I right or am I missing something?
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 1:13:10 AM
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Christfollower2000
Posts: 78
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tuckonline
quote:
Do you believe in Obama?
No...but that is another topic
quote:
I am not trying to attack the idea that Jesus is the Son of God, rather how is it that people come to this knowledge. Is it through self-evident scripture, faith, revelation from God....etc?
Scripture. But in order to believe in the scripture you have to have faith in the writings, writers, and most importantly, in God. Am I right or am I missing something?
Don't you see that your argument is circular? You are saying in order to have faith in the scripture you have to have faith in the writings... What I am trying to sincerely understand is how one comes about having faith in the "writings, writers and God." Does this happen by simply reading a scripture and then one is immediately transformed? Presumably if this were the case anyone who ever read the Bible would automatically become a believer. Or must God act in some way to reveal the truth to someone? My question is, why would someone develop faith in the writings? What causes someone to believe this? Is it 100% their own doing or 100% God? Or 50/50? How does it work? Because it is not self-evident to me. If it were I would imagine that everyone would simply be a Christian. So I am wondering why some people do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God. If the scripture is so clear and fact based, why do people reject it? Again, you don't have people rejecting the claim that Obama is President. But you have people rejecting the claim that Jesus is the Son of God. There must be some reason that people reject Jesus as the Son of God, but accept that Obama is President. What is it?
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 3:45:37 AM
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IamLibertarian
Posts: 380
Joined: 3/5/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Christfollower2000
quote:
ORIGINAL: tuckonline
quote:
Do you believe in Obama?
No...but that is another topic
quote:
I am not trying to attack the idea that Jesus is the Son of God, rather how is it that people come to this knowledge. Is it through self-evident scripture, faith, revelation from God....etc?
Scripture. But in order to believe in the scripture you have to have faith in the writings, writers, and most importantly, in God. Am I right or am I missing something?
Don't you see that your argument is circular? You are saying in order to have faith in the scripture you have to have faith in the writings... What I am trying to sincerely understand is how one comes about having faith in the "writings, writers and God." Does this happen by simply reading a scripture and then one is immediately transformed? Presumably if this were the case anyone who ever read the Bible would automatically become a believer. Or must God act in some way to reveal the truth to someone? My question is, why would someone develop faith in the writings? What causes someone to believe this? Is it 100% their own doing or 100% God? Or 50/50? How does it work? Because it is not self-evident to me. If it were I would imagine that everyone would simply be a Christian. So I am wondering why some people do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God. If the scripture is so clear and fact based, why do people reject it? Again, you don't have people rejecting the claim that Obama is President. But you have people rejecting the claim that Jesus is the Son of God. There must be some reason that people reject Jesus as the Son of God, but accept that Obama is President. What is it?
I think that God is revealing himself all the time to people but it is their lack of understanding of Him that doesnt bring them to Him. Once you begin reading the Bible and praying then you start to build a foundation on which your relationship with God can be built upon, and then you will start to see how he has revealed Himself to you and how He has been trying to reveal himself to you the whole time.
Atleast thats how I view it. I know I probably didnt answer all your questions but keep asking them and I will slowly do my best to give my opinions. Hopefully others more weathered in Christianity can help out too. The same questions you are bringing up are the same ones I used to ask myself all the time...and this was not more than a few weeks/months ago....sometimes I still do.
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 5:10:12 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 301
Joined: 12/19/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tuckonline
And why do the Jews not belive he is? Isn't there some contradictory in Isaiah? I could be completely wrong about that but I know some of you will have the answers. Thanks in advance =)
Because He Himself said so.
Jhn 5:25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
Jhn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?"
Jhn 10:36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
Jhn 11:4 When Jesus heard [that], He said, "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 5:50:29 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 301
Joined: 12/19/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
And why do the Jews not belive he is?
The Judaism of today is not the Judaism of Jesus' day. Not all Jews turned away from Jesus. Prior to Jesus, the rabbis interpreted Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. After Jesus, they had to find a new interpretation.
I recently heard a former Jew say that he asked his rabbi about Is. 53. And the reply was that although it certainly looks like it is describing Jesus, it, of course could not be Jesus because Jesus was not the Messiah. Therefore, it must be referring to Israel as a whole being the obedient suffering servant of God.
Thank you Doug for your post #. 4,
The following web address might be of interest
http://www.moriel.org/articles/israel/jesus_in_the_talmud.htm#this
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 7:10:00 AM
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raoooul
Posts: 168
Joined: 3/7/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tuckonline
And why do the Jews not belive he is? Isn't there some contradictory in Isaiah? I could be completely wrong about that but I know some of you will have the answers. Thanks in advance =)
No Jew would deny that Iesus is the son of G-d, as he was a Jew.
The problem is that Christians have changed the biblical meaning of the term 'son of G-d'.
Biblically speaking anyone that does the will of G-d is a 'son of G-d.
(Exo 4:22 KJV) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
For the Jews are G-d's firstborn son, i' e. the priest unto the rest of the world.
Ah, but the real question that byou should have asked is what term of biblically used to mean what today is called the 'messiah' ?
'Second Adam' !
_____________________________
Are our beliefs biblical ?
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 7:12:43 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 301
Joined: 12/19/2008
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Hi Lapidoth.
Thank you for your post #. 9, in which you say,
"C.) God has not revealed the truth to them yet ".
It is not possible for anyone to receive Jesus as Saviour until they are first born again of the Holy Spirit.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 7:24:51 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 301
Joined: 12/19/2008
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quote:
So where does the responsibility lie? If Satan can influence people to not have faith in Jesus is it their fault? If Satan stops people from being saved how can they be held
Hi Christfollower2000.
Thank you for your post #. 12, in which you say,
"So where does the responsibility lie? If Satan can influence people to not have faith in Jesus is it their fault?"
Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that [there is] none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"
Job 1:9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing?
Job 1:10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.
Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has [is] in your power; only do not lay a hand on his [person]." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 7:39:41 AM
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pabrain
Posts: 301
Joined: 12/19/2008
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Hi tuckonline.
Thank you for your post #. 14, in which you say,
"Scripture. But in order to believe in the scripture you have to have faith in the writings, writers, and most importantly, in God. Am I right or am I missing something?"
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
The above is an extract, please read the whole chapter.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 10:49:42 AM
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ta_mosquito
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 12:20:43 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2923
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
And why do the Jews not belive he is?
The Judaism of today is not the Judaism of Jesus' day. Not all Jews turned away from Jesus. Prior to Jesus, the rabbis interpreted Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy. After Jesus, they had to find a new interpretation.
I recently heard a former Jew say that he asked his rabbi about Is. 53. And the reply was that although it certainly looks like it is describing Jesus, it, of course could not be Jesus because Jesus was not the Messiah. Therefore, it must be referring to Israel as a whole being the obedient suffering servant of God.
That is, when they are confronted with Is. 53. That passage has been removed from the litergical calander. We read it in the place it should be, but most who follow the rabbinic calendar never read that chapter.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: How do we know Jesus is the Son of God? - 5/7/2009 12:36:42 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 1139
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
That is, when they are confronted with Is. 53. That passage has been removed from the litergical calander. We read it in the place it should be, but most who follow the rabbinic calendar never read that chapter.
Really? I didn't know they would go so far as to actually avoid it.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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