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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/28/2009 3:54:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yzf-r1
Nope. The destruction of the present heavens and earth, as cited in 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 21, does not occur until after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. That would be true if the 1000 year reign was properly understood as God meant it to be - metaphorically.
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The repture of the Church must occur before Daniel's 70th Week, the final severn years allotted to the Jews (it cannot pertain to the Church). At the conclusion of Daniel's 70th Week, the Jews will still be cleaning up the mess of war, that isn't a new heaven and new earth! What is your scriptural basis to say that there is a seven year period of time in which the Jews will be "cleaning up the mess"?
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Note Ezekiel 39 (also read Daniel 12 and Zechariah 14, which speak of activities when the 1,000 year reign begins) Daniel 12 speaks of the final tribulation period not a 1000 year reign.
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I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the LORD am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign LORD. This is the day I have spoken of.
" 'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign LORD. Do you have the book, chapter and verse for these passages? Seems we're not using the same translation.
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The seven years Israel is using weapons for fuel extends right into the 1,000 year reign of Christ. Intersting how (assumed) steel weapons are used for fuel, huh? A mystery to me.
The operative word here is "assumed".
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The surviving Jews and what is left of the Elect Gentiles will repopulate the earth, and the earth will be restored, but not recreated, until after the 1,000 year reign, THEN the SECOND Day of the Lord in I Peter 3 and Revelation 21 occurs, when Satan leads a massive revolt agianst Christ the King, but they are all destroyed, Satan is bound forever, and the new heavens and new earth, free of all evil influences, begins.
We see no references to a "SECOND" Day of the Lord....there's only one; but we need not think that judgment day is one “single” day. We see a parallel situation with creation – creation of the universe in six days of 24 hours. Yet, God speaks of a day when He created everything in Gen 2:4.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/28/2009 3:57:27 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
So we can see that it is a wacky idea that many have believed, that the elements will melt in fervent heat is fulfilled by world wide nuclear warfare. No, it is fulfilled by an act of God - not man.
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Next, what nobody here has dealt with is that the heavens will PASS AWAY ON THE DAY OF THE LORD!!! This is talking about the last day in the which the heavens will pass away. As I said to yzf-r1, there's no reason to suppose the "day of the Lord" is one "single" day rather than a period of time.
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The Day of the Lord comes LIKE A THIEF!!! This wording is used for the SECOND COMING OF JESUS. This is NOT after 1000yrs. How can you ignore this? Since the second coming of Jesus occurs on the "last day", of course, it's after the metaphoric 1000 years.
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Kelman said, " The "Day of the Lord" is judgment day in which this present universe will be destroyed and God will recreate "new heavens and earth" where Christ will dwell forever with believers." So my question is; will Jesus re-create everything so he can set His feet down upon the earth just in time? Will he re-create the survivors of the tribulation? After all, does He comes as a thief more than once? Just in time for what?
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For example, yzf-r1 said, "There is more than one "Day of the Lord" referenced in scripture: 1) the conclusion of the Great Tribulation, 2) the conclusion of the 1,000 year reign of Christ, at the time of the great revolt against the Lord"
Ecc 1:4 [One] generation passeth away, and [another] generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
Anybody here BELIEVE this? Nope, I don't believe it, although, because the "day of the Lord" encompasses a period of time, it may give the impression of more than one....but there isn't.
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Right! Like the comparison Peter makes to the flood of Noah"s day. Same earth, new world. The destruction of the earth in Noah's flood is a picture of the final destruction and a very good picture at that. Every living being was destroyed save eight who were saved by being "in Christ"(the Ark).
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Some here, it appears, believe that the entire universe is going to be reduced to sub-atomic particles, then instantly re-made. Probably "some" believe the entire universe will be destroyed and recreated because that's what Scripture says. The glorified resurrected bodies of believers is an example of this "re-creation". What is "sown in corruption" is "raised to glory"...the same with the heavens and earth.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/28/2009 4:15:03 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: GodsMusic
Great post Kelman.
Thanks, GodsMusic. It's hard to argue against a 1,000 year physical reign of Christ on this sin cursed earth since it's such an accepted concept. So, it's always good to learn of others who understand that this is really not taught in Scripture.
Oh, but it is. You see, you not only must take the teachings in Revelation but also Paul's argument in I Corinthians 15:
1 Cor 15:19-28
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then (3) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV[/color]
The order that Paul teaches here is that there are three resurrections:... No, Paul is not teaching three resurrections. There are only two resurrections in Scripture - one is the spiritual resurrection of every believer's soul by which he escapes the "second death" and the other is the bodily resurrection.
Rev 20: 6,14 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. .... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
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the Messiah Himself being the firstfruits is the first resurrection (or maybe we should count this as the 0th resurrection), then the second resurrection (or the first resurrection for the saints) at the Messiah's coming, and then a third (or second) general resurrection AFTER the Kingdom of God is delivered into the Father's hands. The KEY here is verse 26. Comparing and harmonizing this verse to Rev. 20, we can read the following:
Rev 20:7-15
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV[/color]
This second death, which includes the destruction of death and the grave (Greek: hades and Hebrew: sheol), occurs AFTER haSatan is released, thus AFTER the 1000 years. Therefore, this last resurrection mentioned in I Corinthians occurs AFTER the 1000 years, and before the New Earth, its New Atmosphere, and the landing of the New Jerusalem. Yes, the "second death" occurs after Satan is released for the completion of God's timetable(1000 yrs). The "second death" is a reference to the eternal damnation as a consequence of sin(Rev 20:14; 21:8).
quote:
See, during the last 1000 years of this second earth and atmosphere, the curse is only PARTIALLY lifted! Do you mean the latter part of the 1000 yr reign?...or are you saying there is more than "one" 1000 yr reign? In any event, God is clear the destruction of the earth is complete.
quote:
Isa 11:1-11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
KJV Isaiah's saying a lot here....vv 6-8 speak to the believers being reconciled to God. It's as if we are in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. It is a picture which encompasses the whole NT period. During the tribulation many will be saved as we see in Rev 7:9.
quote:
Isa 65:19-25
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV Beautiful picture of the kingdom of God and the joy of believers as they live eternally with their Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/28/2009 10:26:31 AM
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Uriah
Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
So we can see that it is a wacky idea that many have believed, that the elements will melt in fervent heat is fulfilled by world wide nuclear warfare. No, it is fulfilled by an act of God - not man.
quote:
Next, what nobody here has dealt with is that the heavens will PASS AWAY ON THE DAY OF THE LORD!!! This is talking about the last day in the which the heavens will pass away. As I said to yzf-r1, there's no reason to suppose the "day of the Lord" is one "single" day rather than a period of time.
Glad to see we agree!
You said,"This is talking about the last day in the which the heavens will pass away. As I said to yzf-r1, there's no reason to suppose the "day of the Lord" is one "single" day rather than a period of time."
The apostle Peter says: The Day of the Lord comes LIKE A THIEF!!! ---This wording is used for the SECOND COMING OF JESUS. This is NOT after 1000yrs. How can you ignore this?
You said, "Since the second coming of Jesus occurs on the "last day", of course, it's after the metaphoric 1000 years."
See how you are saying that the Lord comes like a thief ---AFTER the 1,000 yrs.? AND you say the 1,000 yrs is metaphoric! BELIEVE the scriptures!
You asked, "Just in time for what?" With the heavens and earth destroyed, will He not need to creat it all new so He can set His feet down upon the earth to rule?
You also say, "the "day of the Lord" encompasses a period of time..." Does this mean it is a "slow burn" for the heavens being destroyed by fire? Or does the sky depart like a scroll rolling up in slow motion?
< Message edited by Uriah -- 5/28/2009 10:37:29 AM >
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/29/2009 12:58:42 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Oh, but it is. You see, you not only must take the teachings in Revelation but also Paul's argument in I Corinthians 15:
1 Cor 15:19-28
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then (3) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
The order that Paul teaches here is that there are three resurrections:... No, Paul is not teaching three resurrections. There are only two resurrections in Scripture - one is the spiritual resurrection of every believer's soul by which he escapes the "second death" and the other is the bodily resurrection.
Rev 20: 6,14 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. .... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
A "SPIRITUAL resurrection?" That's whack! That's no resurrection at all! The first resurrection (after the Messiah being the firstfruits) is the REAL, physical resurrection of the bodies of those who are justified by God. This happens just BEFORE the 1000 years when the Messiah comes back to earth.
Then, AFTER the 1000 years, the second resurrection (for the second death) is for the unjustified so that they may stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment and receive their punishment in their bodies!
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
the Messiah Himself being the firstfruits is the first resurrection (or maybe we should count this as the 0th resurrection), then the second resurrection (or the first resurrection for the saints) at the Messiah's coming, and then a third (or second) general resurrection AFTER the Kingdom of God is delivered into the Father's hands. The KEY here is verse 26. Comparing and harmonizing this verse to Rev. 20, we can read the following:
Rev 20:7-15
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV
This second death, which includes the destruction of death and the grave (Greek: hades and Hebrew: sheol), occurs AFTER haSatan is released, thus AFTER the 1000 years. Therefore, this last resurrection mentioned in I Corinthians occurs AFTER the 1000 years, and before the New Earth, its New Atmosphere, and the landing of the New Jerusalem. Yes, the "second death" occurs after Satan is released for the completion of God's timetable(1000 yrs). The "second death" is a reference to the eternal damnation as a consequence of sin(Rev 20:14; 21:8).
No problem here; I think your right about the second death.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
See, during the last 1000 years of this second earth and atmosphere, the curse is only PARTIALLY lifted! Do you mean the latter part of the 1000 yr reign?...or are you saying there is more than "one" 1000 yr reign? In any event, God is clear the destruction of the earth is complete.
No, there's not more than one 1000-year reign, but Yeshua`s reign ON EARTH is forever! He doesn't JUST reign for 1000 years!
Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
Sorry, but that proves that the "destruction of the earth" is NOT "complete!" It'd be hard to reign over the house of Ya'acov forever and for there to be no end of His Kingdom if the earth was completely destroyed!
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Isa 11:1-11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
KJV Isaiah's saying a lot here....vv 6-8 speak to the believers being reconciled to God. It's as if we are in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. It is a picture which encompasses the whole NT period. During the tribulation many will be saved as we see in Rev 7:9.
No, verses 6-8 are talking about the real things! Wolves, lambs, leopards, kids, calves, young lions, fatlings, and little children all living together LITERALLY ON THE EARTH in harmony; the curse will be partially lifted in that the curse will be lifted in His Kingdom while not in other places of the earth ... yet. Real nursing children shall play at the holes of real asps! Real weaned children shall be able to put their hands in the cobra's dens! This is not figurative speech here! It's REAL, LITERAL, PHYSICAL! Why is that such a hard concept for you? When God says something, HE MEANS IT! You don't have to try and figure out what He "really meant!" Just ACCEPT His Word!
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Isa 65:19-25
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV Beautiful picture of the kingdom of God and the joy of believers as they live eternally with their Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Right, but their "Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ" IS their "Rescuer, Adonai Yeshua` haMashiach." And, this Kingdom of God is a REAL, PHYSICAL, LITERAL KINGDOM ON EARTH over which Yeshua` reigns, not some pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by, ethereal place called "Heaven" to which we go! It's not just a "picture"; there are REAL wolves and lambs and lions and bullocks and serpents living together in harmony with people! The Isra'elis will build REAL houses and live in them; they will plant REAL vineyards and eat their grapes! This is not just some analogy of what will happen; IT'S WHAT WILL HAPPEN LITERALLY!
When you can grasp that, then you have a much better view of our future!
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/29/2009 4:26:17 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
So we can see that it is a wacky idea that many have believed, that the elements will melt in fervent heat is fulfilled by world wide nuclear warfare. No, it is fulfilled by an act of God - not man.
quote:
Next, what nobody here has dealt with is that the heavens will PASS AWAY ON THE DAY OF THE LORD!!! This is talking about the last day in the which the heavens will pass away. As I said to yzf-r1, there's no reason to suppose the "day of the Lord" is one "single" day rather than a period of time.
Glad to see we agree!
You said,"This is talking about the last day in the which the heavens will pass away. As I said to yzf-r1, there's no reason to suppose the "day of the Lord" is one "single" day rather than a period of time."
The apostle Peter says: The Day of the Lord comes LIKE A THIEF!!! ---This wording is used for the SECOND COMING OF JESUS. This is NOT after 1000yrs. How can you ignore this?
You said, "Since the second coming of Jesus occurs on the "last day", of course, it's after the metaphoric 1000 years."
See how you are saying that the Lord comes like a thief ---AFTER the 1,000 yrs.? AND you say the 1,000 yrs is metaphoric! BELIEVE the scriptures! Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years. Where I disagree is what precisely that 1000 year reign is. I say it represents the completion of whatever God has in view and you say it represents a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth. I would also disagree, because of what we find in 1Thes 5:4-6, that Christ comes as a "thief in the night" for believers.
quote:
You asked, "Just in time for what?" With the heavens and earth destroyed, will He not need to creat it all new so He can set His feet down upon the earth to rule? Isn't that what 2Peter 3:12-13 says?
quote:
You also say, "the "day of the Lord" encompasses a period of time..." Does this mean it is a "slow burn" for the heavens being destroyed by fire? Or does the sky depart like a scroll rolling up in slow motion?
No, not the actual destruction of the universe but the judging of man during the tribulation period.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/29/2009 4:33:34 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Oh, but it is. You see, you not only must take the teachings in Revelation but also Paul's argument in I Corinthians 15:
1 Cor 15:19-28
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: (1) Christ the firstfruits; (2) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then (3) cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV[/color]
The order that Paul teaches here is that there are three resurrections:... No, Paul is not teaching three resurrections. There are only two resurrections in Scripture - one is the spiritual resurrection of every believer's soul by which he escapes the "second death" and the other is the bodily resurrection.
Rev 20: 6,14 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. .... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
A "SPIRITUAL resurrection?" That's whack! That's no resurrection at all! Nope, it's not "whack" but it is God's Holy Word. Was not your soul raised to life when God regenerated you?...that is the spiritual resurrection of which the Bible speaks. Eph 2:4-6 tells us God has "quickened us together with Christ....And hath raised us up together...."
quote:
That's no resurrection at all! The first resurrection (after the Messiah being the firstfruits) is the REAL, physical resurrection of the bodies of those who are justified by God. This happens just BEFORE the 1000 years when the Messiah comes back to earth. Without "that" spiritual resurrection eternal destruction is the only end. This spiritual resurrection is called the first resurrection in Rev 20:5-6 where God explains why the souls of the martyrs can live and reign with Christ. Since they've already experienced the resurrection of their souls, they can go into God's holy presence immediately upon death.
In Rev 20:6 God emphasizes five characteristics of those who have experienced the first resurrection:
1. They are blessed
2. They are holy
3. On such the second death has no power
4. They are priests of God
5. They reign with Him
All five characteristics apply to those who have been saved.
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Then, AFTER the 1000 years, the second resurrection (for the second death) is for the unjustified so that they may stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment and receive their punishment in their bodies! No, the "second resurrection" is a reference to the bodily resurrection of believers on the last day.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
See, during the last 1000 years of this second earth and atmosphere, the curse is only PARTIALLY lifted! Do you mean the latter part of the 1000 yr reign?...or are you saying there is more than "one" 1000 yr reign? In any event, God is clear the destruction of the earth is complete. No, there's not more than one 1000-year reign, but Yeshua`s reign ON EARTH is forever! He doesn't JUST reign for 1000 years! I see...1000 years plus forever....seems redundant.
quote:
Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV[/color]
Sorry, but that proves that the "destruction of the earth" is NOT "complete!" It'd be hard to reign over the house of Ya'acov forever and for there to be no end of His Kingdom if the earth was completely destroyed! No, it doesn't prove anything other than Christ will reign forever. And since this universe will be destroyed(2Peter 3:10), He will reign on the new earth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
quote:
Isa 11:1-11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
KJV Isaiah's saying a lot here....vv 6-8 speak to the believers being reconciled to God. It's as if we are in the Garden of Eden before the Fall. It is a picture which encompasses the whole NT period. During the tribulation many will be saved as we see in Rev 7:9. No, verses 6-8 are talking about the real things! Wolves, lambs, leopards, kids, calves, young lions, fatlings, and little children all living together LITERALLY ON THE EARTH in harmony; the curse will be partially lifted in that the curse will be lifted in His Kingdom while not in other places of the earth ... yet. Where do you get that from?..."while not in other places of the earth"?....God's new perfect earth will somehow be defective? No, that idea would compromise other passages which tell us of God's new "perfect" creation....not "half" perfect.
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Real nursing children shall play at the holes of real asps! Real weaned children shall be able to put their hands in the cobra's dens! This is not figurative speech here! It's REAL, LITERAL, PHYSICAL! Why is that such a hard concept for you? When God says something, HE MEANS IT! You don't have to try and figure out what He "really meant!" Just ACCEPT His Word! Unless we understand that Christ spoke in parables and "without a parable He did not speak", we will always come to faulty conclusions. You want to understand this like some want to understand Mark 16:17-18 - literally. In either case, it doesn't work. Do you really think God transforms human children into some type of "super" human who can drink poison and handle deadly snakes?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Isa 65:19-25
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.
KJV Beautiful picture of the kingdom of God and the joy of believers as they live eternally with their Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Right, but their "Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ" IS their "Rescuer, Adonai Yeshua` haMashiach." And, this Kingdom of God is a REAL, PHYSICAL, LITERAL KINGDOM ON EARTH over which Yeshua` reigns, not some pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by, ethereal place called "Heaven" to which we go! I don't disagree, of course, God creates new heavens and a new earth where Christ will reign with believers. Although, I wouldn't be too dismissive of that "pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by, ethereal place called "Heaven" to which all believers have gone or will go until the last day.
quote:
It's not just a "picture"; there are REAL wolves and lambs and lions and bullocks and serpents living together in harmony with people! The Isra'elis will build REAL houses and live in them; they will plant REAL vineyards and eat their grapes! This is not just some analogy of what will happen; IT'S WHAT WILL HAPPEN LITERALLY! No, it is a picture of all believers as we live with Christ on the new earth. We see in vv 17-19, "17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/29/2009 9:56:59 AM
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Uriah
Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2005
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kelman said. "Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years."
Sorry, you are way off, you really need to re-read some things. Oh, and you think He comes after a "metaphoric" 1,000 yrs. too. Combine these things and the "spiritual" resurrection you claim and you have your own brand of Christianity.
Believe the scriptures.
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/29/2009 10:26:28 AM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 11008
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
Combine these things and the "spiritual" resurrection you claim and you have your own brand of Christianity.
Believe the scriptures.
This is getting close to a personal attack. Please tone down posts.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/29/2009 11:05:04 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2278
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Kelman read Rev 6:20 again and see what it says about the first resurrection.
It says John saw the souls of those beheaded and they came to life and lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years…THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. The resurrection is when they are brought back to full life.
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6 ( ESV )
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/29/2009 12:58:46 PM
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Uriah
Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline
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Sorry! God knows I certainly mean no such thing. I'll be much more careful.
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 1:57:04 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
kelman said. "Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years."
Sorry, you are way off, you really need to re-read some things. Oh, and you think He comes after a "metaphoric" 1,000 yrs. too. Combine these things and the "spiritual" resurrection you claim and you have your own brand of Christianity.
Believe the scriptures.
I do, that's why I can confidantly say those who become saved have been spiritually raised to life, iow, they have been spiritually resurrected and God calls this the "first resurrection".
A person becomes spiritually alive in salvation when God spiritually breathes on that spiritually-dead person's soul so that this person is given a new soul. The Bible speaks of this as a resurrection in Col 3:1 and Rev 20:5-6, or as being born again in John 3:3-8, or as having been regenerated in Titus 3:5.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 1:58:46 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Kelman read Rev 6:20 again and see what it says about the first resurrection.
It says John saw the souls of those beheaded and they came to life and lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years…THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. The resurrection is when they are brought back to full life. It doesn't say "and they came to life" at all - your translation's bad. Try the KJV, Young's Literal, Green's Literal, ASV, etc.
It says "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". This is also indicative of the symbolism of the phrase "1000 years" since believers live and reign with Christ eternally not just for a thousand years.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
< Message edited by kelman -- 6/1/2009 2:19:50 AM >
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 10:29:02 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2278
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Hi kelman...what part of living is not being alive?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 10:29:29 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Kelman read Rev 6:20 again and see what it says about the first resurrection.
It says John saw the souls of those beheaded and they came to life and lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years…THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. The resurrection is when they are brought back to full life. It doesn't say "and they came to life" at all - your translation's bad. Try the KJV, Young's Literal, Green's Literal, ASV, etc.
It says "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". This is also indicative of the symbolism of the phrase "1000 years" since believers live and reign with Christ eternally not just for a thousand years.
Rev 4:20 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
First, let's get this out of the way: Yes, while the translation was "bad," the LOGIC was not! You're right that the Greek does NOT say "and they came to life." HOWEVER, if they were dead before and now "live and reign with Christ," the logical conclusion is that they did indeed come back to life somewhere in between! The only way one could come to a different conclusion is to change the theology.
(This was the problem with the Alexandrian teachers during the 100s to the 300s A.D. If they didn't like the way something was worded in the Scriptures at that time, they re-worded the Scriptures. If they couldn't effectively re-word them, they changed the MEANING of the words--the definitions of the words--and re-wrote the Scriptures to their liking, re-formulating their theology in the process!)
For example, if one says to oneself, "Oh, they couldn't have really come back to life here in this passage," they might say, "Well, they 'lived and reigned with Christ' in 'Heaven' in their 'spiritual bodies,'" and take it out of the physical realm that way. In making this basic change to the understanding of a passage, one has made a fundamental change to his/her theology!
HOWEVER, is this what the author intended one to understand from the reading? More importantly, is this what THE AUTHOR intended for us to understand? If we change things in Scripture to our liking, we not only do damage to the text, but we also run a GREAT risk with God Himself!
Matt 5:19
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
KJV
1 Tim 6:1-5
1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
2 And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
KJV
James 3:1
1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
KJV
Fundamentally, it is GOOD to teach! It's disseminating information to others. ON THE OTHER HAND, it is also important to be sure that the information being disseminating is the TRUTH! Teaching others the truth about God and the information He wanted us to know is a GOOD thing, but teaching others--particularly the impressionable and the young--error is a VERY BAD thing!
You think that "1000 years" REPRESENTS "forever" and that's why you believe it is figurative and symbolic, but have you considered the position that "1000 years" is a very small SUBSET of "forever?"
While a "1000 years" may SEEM like "forever" to our short lifespans, to the lifespan of a country, that's not that long of a time period! Consider: The USA, a fairly young country, is almost half-way there; to England proper, they've seen their first 1000 years plus 82 years, but it is said that China has seen more than six of them! It's only been a little over three "1000-year periods" since Daviyd first became king of Isra'el and not even four to when Avraham was born!
Why wouldn't John have used some unit LARGER than a mere 1000 years? Both the Hebrew and the Greek languages had numbers that were larger than 1000. He could have said a "thousand thousands"; why didn't he? He could have said "seven thousands" or "ten thousands"; that would have been SURE to be understood as finite but right next to "forever" for the earth!
The reason why he said "alef shannowt" translated into Greek as "chilia etee" is because that is what the messenger from God TOLD him to write! God MEANT for him to write "a thousand years" because God wanted it to say "a thousand years!"
"To reign" with Christ (or with the Messiah), implies the creation of a country (or at least a new regime in an existing one)! It also implies that there is someone to reign over! If everyone in "Heaven" is "a born-again Christian," who is there left to reign over??! The angels? Why do THEY need to be reigned over? They already have God to reign over them! What does He need us for?
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 4:23:34 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1957
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
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Shalom there.
In reference to the reigning for 1-thousand years. Is it possible that 1-thousand (plus/minus a couple) Reigning will not be required, because after the GWTJ, everyone will be clean of any dross, perfect in thought, and in need of no training, only the perfect guidance of Jesus. Talk about equality. Just a thought.
In Messiah, His Knowledge and Wisdom. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 4:38:57 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2278
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
In reference to the reigning for 1-thousand years. Is it possible that 1-thousand (plus/minus a couple) Reigning will not be required, because after the GWTJ, everyone will be clean of any dross, perfect in thought, and in need of no training, only the perfect guidance of Jesus. Talk about equality. Just a thought.
Arley...doesn't the GWTJ take place after the millennium? Anyway the GWTJ is from judgment of those for all ages.
If I understand your question correctly.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 4:52:27 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1957
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
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Not completely, Bob.
After the GWTJ and Satan, death, and so on are all in the Lake of Fire, and we are fully into Eternal Eternity, where even the Ten Commandments are 90% no longer in effect, we will have no need of Rulers, as we know them now. Kind-of hard to vocalize on paper.
I believe John cites 1-thousand, because time will be no more, after the GWTJ. Something like that.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 4:55:11 PM
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dantheman688
Posts: 100
Joined: 3/10/2008
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What will it actually look like when God destroys Satan and the Antichrist? Will we as believers get to sit back, eat our popcorn, and watch? lol
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 9:52:13 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Dan.
quote:
ORIGINAL: dantheman688
What will it actually look like when God destroys Satan and the Antichrist? Will we as believers get to sit back, eat our popcorn, and watch? lol
All I can say about that is to quote the last few verses of Yesha`yahu's (Isaiah's) prophecy:
Isa 66:22-24
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV
We don't hear about THAT in sermons much, do we?
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/31/2009 10:53:02 PM
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yzf-r1
Posts: 572
Joined: 3/8/2009
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After considering the scripture posted in this thread, I now believe the earth will endure ("laid bare"), but that the cosmos will still be destroyed. Just as God created the earth first, then the cosmos, and "streched them out", so the universe will be uncreated in a truly mind boggling display of power for a great cloud of witnesses.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/1/2009 3:06:07 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi kelman...what part of living is not being alive?
Bob
A big difference between "they came to life and lived and reigned with Christ" and "they lived and reigned with Christ".
Since these souls are in heaven, they don't "come to life" rather they've never stopped "being alive" in Christ.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/1/2009 3:12:16 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Kelman read Rev 6:20 again and see what it says about the first resurrection.
It says John saw the souls of those beheaded and they came to life and lived and reigned with Christ for a 1000 years…THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. The resurrection is when they are brought back to full life. It doesn't say "and they came to life" at all - your translation's bad. Try the KJV, Young's Literal, Green's Literal, ASV, etc.
It says "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". This is also indicative of the symbolism of the phrase "1000 years" since believers live and reign with Christ eternally not just for a thousand years.
Rev 4:20 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
First, let's get this out of the way: Yes, while the translation was "bad," the LOGIC was not! Oh, but it was.
quote:
You're right that the Greek does NOT say "and they came to life." HOWEVER, if they were dead before and now "live and reign with Christ,".... Where does it say they were dead before? Are you implying that the souls of believers are dead? These souls are very much alive and have been from the moment they were regenerated or "born again" when they lived on earth. This is the "first resurrection" upon which the second death has no power.
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...the logical conclusion is that they did indeed come back to life somewhere in between! The only way one could come to a different conclusion is to change the theology. Actually, it seems to me the only way one could come to your conclusion is to believe that the souls of believers are dead....dead as the souls of unbelievers.
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(This was the problem with the Alexandrian teachers during the 100s to the 300s A.D. If they didn't like the way something was worded in the Scriptures at that time, they re-worded the Scriptures. If they couldn't effectively re-word them, they changed the MEANING of the words--the definitions of the words--and re-wrote the Scriptures to their liking, re-formulating their theology in the process!) Interesting since you've just agreed that "and they came to life" is NOT in the Greek. So, whoever is changing what's being said - it's not me.
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For example, if one says to oneself, "Oh, they couldn't have really come back to life here in this passage," they might say, "Well, they 'lived and reigned with Christ' in 'Heaven' in their 'spiritual bodies,'" and take it out of the physical realm that way. In making this basic change to the understanding of a passage, one has made a fundamental change to his/her theology! Ridiculous. Who said anything about "spiritual bodies"?...Scripture doesn't and I didn't either. When we harmonize Scripture, that verse becomes very clear. What do you think being "born again" means?...what happens? Does your soul remain as before?....dead in sin and trespass? Or is it raised to a "newness of life"?
What do you mean by "making this basic change to the understanding of a passage"? Whose understanding?....yours?....Bob's? If you ask me it's you guys changing the basic understanding of what is essentially a rather clear passage WHEN harmonized with the rest of Scripture.
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HOWEVER, is this what the author intended one to understand from the reading? More importantly, is this what THE AUTHOR intended for us to understand? Obviously, God is not intending for us to understand that believers continue to have dead souls which you seem to be seriously implying.
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If we change things in Scripture to our liking, we not only do damage to the text, but we also run a GREAT risk with God Himself! Hey, it's you guys who want to change what God actually said which was: "they lived and reigned" to "they came to life and lived and reigned " - not me. So, if any damage is being done it's by you. In addition, to imply that believers have dead souls is frankly doing the most damage to Scripture I've seen yet.....and I've seen a lot.
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Fundamentally, it is GOOD to teach! It's disseminating information to others. ON THE OTHER HAND, it is also important to be sure that the information being disseminating is the TRUTH! Teaching others the truth about God and the information He wanted us to know is a GOOD thing, but teaching others--particularly the impressionable and the young--error is a VERY BAD thing! Yep, like teaching them that there are dead souls in heaven.
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You think that "1000 years" REPRESENTS "forever" and that's why you believe it is figurative and symbolic, but have you considered the position that "1000 years" is a very small SUBSET of "forever?" No, 1000 represents the completeness of whatever God has in view. That is how Satan can be said to be "bound" for a 1000 years when he was bound at the cross which obviously is considerably more than a 1000 years.
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While a "1000 years" may SEEM like "forever" to our short lifespans, to the lifespan of a country, that's not that long of a time period! Sorry, but when I want to know what God means by a word or phrase I go to Scripture.
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Consider: The USA, a fairly young country, is almost half-way there; to England proper, they've seen their first 1000 years plus 82 years, but it is said that China has seen more than six of them! It's only been a little over three "1000-year periods" since Daviyd first became king of Isra'el and not even four to when Avraham was born! None of this has even the remotest connection to Scripture or how God uses words and phrases. Why don't you check Scripture for yourself instead of imagining scenarios in which your theology might somehow prevail? See for yourself how God uses 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000...it's all right there in the Book.
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Why wouldn't John have used some unit LARGER than a mere 1000 years? Clearly because that is the phrase God uses throughout Scripture to denote the completeness of whatever is in view.
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The reason why he said "alef shannowt" translated into Greek as "chilia etee" is because that is what the messenger from God TOLD him to write! God MEANT for him to write "a thousand years" because God wanted it to say "a thousand years!" Exactly! And then God expects us to have enough interest and desire to find out what He means by the phrase not to just decide that it fits very nicely into our theology. There are a number of different time frames in Rev all described by the term "1,000 years".
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"To reign" with Christ (or with the Messiah), implies the creation of a country (or at least a new regime in an existing one)! Not necessarily. Believers are said to now be "priests and kings" of God Rev 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
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It also implies that there is someone to reign over! If everyone in "Heaven" is "a born-again Christian," who is there left to reign over??! The angels? Why do THEY need to be reigned over? They already have God to reign over them! What does He need us for?
Guess it all depends upon whom you wish to reign over. Believers reign over Satan, they reign over sin in their lives, they are a part of the kingdom of heaven and co-heirs with Christ. And in the new earth, who knows what God has in store for believers?
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/1/2009 3:31:22 AM
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gegeven0szoun9ster
Posts: 231
Joined: 1/30/2009
Status: offline
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my grandmother told me:
a "thousand years" can be "one day" to god.
and the other way around.
i don't know if this is said in the bible too.
_____________________________
stdm
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/1/2009 9:26:10 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2278
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
A big difference between "they came to life and lived and reigned with Christ" and "they lived and reigned with Christ".
Since these souls are in heaven, they don't "come to life" rather they've never stopped "being alive" in Christ.
Let's try it another way Kelman...will they receive bodies as they are made alive?
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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