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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/1/2009 10:17:45 AM
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Uriah
Posts: 118
Joined: 7/5/2005
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Kelman said, "they have been spiritually resurrected and God calls this the "first resurrection"."
WOW! Where do I start? It belongs in another category. What comes out of the graves??? This is Christianity 1 0 1 man!
"..he that believeth in ME shall never die..." so we are spiritually made alive when we are saved. WHAT is resurrected then? Look up the word in a dictionary at least.
Also you say, "Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years."
Well, what can I say?
< Message edited by Uriah -- 6/1/2009 10:23:49 AM >
_____________________________
Producer of the upcoming documentary video: The Return of the Christ
See the text version at thereturnofthechrist.net
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/3/2009 1:56:11 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
A big difference between "they came to life and lived and reigned with Christ" and "they lived and reigned with Christ".
Since these souls are in heaven, they don't "come to life" rather they've never stopped "being alive" in Christ.
Let's try it another way Kelman...will they receive bodies as they are made alive?
Bob
Bob, it doesn't say they "were made alive"...it says "they lived". Even believers here on earth can be said to "live and reign" with Christ.
They, as do all believers, will receive their glorified resurrected bodies at the rapture. At present, they, and all who have died "in Christ", are in heaven in their resurrected spirits and their physical bodies are in the grave.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/3/2009 2:40:48 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
Kelman said, "they have been spiritually resurrected and God calls this the "first resurrection"." Yep, you're correct, that what I said because that's what Scripture teaches.
quote:
WOW! Where do I start? It belongs in another category. What comes out of the graves??? This is Christianity 1 0 1 man! Uh, bodies come out of the grave....but the spirits of those who have died in Christ are NOT in the grave. They are with their Lord in heaven awaiting the second resurrection - that of their gloried spiritual bodies at the rapture.
quote:
"..he that believeth in ME shall never die..." so we are spiritually made alive when we are saved. WHAT is resurrected then? Look up the word in a dictionary at least. Scripture speaks of being made "spiritually alive" or being "born again" or RAISED Col 3:1 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
It is more profitable to "look up the word" in the Bible - not a secular dictionary - if you wish to know how God's uses a word.
quote:
Also you say, "Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years." Yep, after a metaphorical 1000 years or for the completeness of time/of God's plan. It is only the misunderstanding or the outright refusal to even attempt to learn how God uses 1000 years that has led to the erroneous theology of a 1000 year reign on this sin-cursed earth.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/7/2009 11:58:11 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 773
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
Kelman said, "they have been spiritually resurrected and God calls this the "first resurrection"." Yep, you're correct, that what I said because that's what Scripture teaches.
quote:
WOW! Where do I start? It belongs in another category. What comes out of the graves??? This is Christianity 1 0 1 man! Uh, bodies come out of the grave....but the spirits of those who have died in Christ are NOT in the grave. They are with their Lord in heaven awaiting the second resurrection - that of their gloried spiritual bodies at the rapture.
quote:
"..he that believeth in ME shall never die..." so we are spiritually made alive when we are saved. WHAT is resurrected then? Look up the word in a dictionary at least. Scripture speaks of being made "spiritually alive" or being "born again" or RAISED Col 3:1 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
It is more profitable to "look up the word" in the Bible - not a secular dictionary - if you wish to know how God's uses a word.
quote:
Also you say, "Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years." Yep, after a metaphorical 1000 years or for the completeness of time/of God's plan. It is only the misunderstanding or the outright refusal to even attempt to learn how God uses 1000 years that has led to the erroneous theology of a 1000 year reign on this sin-cursed earth.
First, that is NOT what the Scriptures teach! "Spiritual resurrection," the way you mean it, is an oxymoron, like saying "jumbo shrimp!" You are using a metaphoric, allegorical method of interpretation. This is a FALSE interpretation of Scripture MADE UP by those who could not stomach the grammatical/historical method of interpretation that was common in the first and second centuries A.D. In the late 2nd century and into the third century, false teachers started to steer the "Church" away from their Jewish roots and from the normal grammatical/historical method of interpretation saying that the Tanakh (the Old Testament) should be interpreted as being fulfilled in the "Church," and saying that the "Church" replaced Isra'el as God's people.
Col. 3:1 is not talking about OUR resurrection; it's talking about YESHUA`S resurrection and our connection to HIM! HE is the firstfruits of the Resurrection! HE is the Resurrection and the Life! Will you indeed "never die?" No, that's not what Yeshua`s words meant because His disciples, from then to now, still physically die! He was saying that one would not STAY dead! He was ESPOUSING the fact that He IS the Resurrection, and that when He returns, all they who are in the grave will hear His voice and live!
No, the Bible is VERY clear on this point (although the amillennialists have such trouble with a single phrase): We shall live and reign with the Messiah for a thousand years (Greek: chilia etee) while haSatan is incarcerated in Hades! And, however one might like to deny that it is a literal 1000 years, that's what the Greek says! not once, but SIX TIMES! Furthermore, the logic is simple! A person is incomplete without his or her body! Thus, in order for a man or a woman to be able to reign with the Messiah, one must have his or her body back! That's resurrection!
What is it that we believers are to anticipate? Not "going to heaven!" Rather, we are to anticipate the "redemption of our bodies!" (Romans 8:23)
Get your facts straight! The Scriptures are repleat with prophecies about a resurrection BEFORE the Messiah's Kingdom!
In the Messiah's love and with great anticipation,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/8/2009 11:31:06 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1957
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Roy..................Yeeee-Haaaa!!
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/9/2009 10:20:31 PM
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Nobody1
Posts: 36
Joined: 6/9/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, everyone.
Recently in the discussion on the horses, there was a secondary debate starting as to whether the "new heavens and the new earth" are talking about a new universe.
yzf-r1 said,
quote:
Revelation 21 clearly says "NEW heaven and NEW earth" at the conclusion of Christ's 1,000 year reign. The same phrase used in Genesis 1 : God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Peter 3 says "The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare".
I don't put whimsical finite human limits on the infinite, eternal God, that's incredibly foolish. "Heavens" means the universe, the cosmos. Destroying the universe and creating anew is no problem for the Almighty.
<snip>
I'm not "doubting God's Word"; I'm doubting whether we have correctly understood it! We human beings often have a GREAT imagination and that can be a powerful tool, but imaginations without the restraints of reality decay into fantasy and fanciful fictions. Although fantasy/science fiction is fun to read and watch in a movie, it's of little value if not grounded in reality and restrained by continuity.
Roy
The above verses are symbolic, but also very literal (more literal then people realize).
And no, they do not understand it. God died and sent His Only Son to save the world, not destroy it.
As for the flood, the Lord God said, 'the rainbow in the sky is a promise I will never destroy the earth by water", yet it is a flood the Lord spoke of. So what does that mean? Is it not a Spiritual flood for redemption and salvation? However, there will be punishment for the wicked.
That said, Jesus is greater then Jonah.
The universe and all we see is as a metaphor before the Lord.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/11/2009 12:48:56 AM
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yzf-r1
Posts: 572
Joined: 3/8/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nobody1
As for the flood, the Lord God said, 'the rainbow in the sky is a promise I will never destroy the earth by water", yet it is a flood the Lord spoke of.
Huh?
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/13/2009 5:21:36 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
Kelman said, "they have been spiritually resurrected and God calls this the "first resurrection"." Yep, you're correct, that what I said because that's what Scripture teaches.
quote:
WOW! Where do I start? It belongs in another category. What comes out of the graves??? This is Christianity 1 0 1 man! Uh, bodies come out of the grave....but the spirits of those who have died in Christ are NOT in the grave. They are with their Lord in heaven awaiting the second resurrection - that of their gloried spiritual bodies at the rapture.
quote:
"..he that believeth in ME shall never die..." so we are spiritually made alive when we are saved. WHAT is resurrected then? Look up the word in a dictionary at least. Scripture speaks of being made "spiritually alive" or being "born again" or RAISED Col 3:1 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
It is more profitable to "look up the word" in the Bible - not a secular dictionary - if you wish to know how God's uses a word.
quote:
Also you say, "Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years." Yep, after a metaphorical 1000 years or for the completeness of time/of God's plan. It is only the misunderstanding or the outright refusal to even attempt to learn how God uses 1000 years that has led to the erroneous theology of a 1000 year reign on this sin-cursed earth.
First, that is NOT what the Scriptures teach! "Spiritual resurrection," the way you mean it, is an oxymoron, like saying "jumbo shrimp!" You are using a metaphoric, allegorical method of interpretation. Wow...nothing oxymoronic about God making what was dead come alive. It's as metaphorical as being "born from above" is and just as scriptural especially since it's precisely the same event.
quote:
You are using a metaphoric, allegorical method of interpretation. Yep, just as the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us...."the lamb of God". Take your argument to Him.
quote:
This is a FALSE interpretation of Scripture MADE UP by those who could not stomach the grammatical/historical method of interpretation that was common in the first and second centuries A.D. In the late 2nd century and into the third century, false teachers started to steer the "Church" away from their Jewish roots and from the normal grammatical/historical method of interpretation saying that the Tanakh (the Old Testament) should be interpreted as being fulfilled in the "Church," and saying that the "Church" replaced Isra'el as God's people. That's just plain silly and has nothing to with God "raising" our dead spirit so that we have life in Christ.
quote:
Col. 3:1 is not talking about OUR resurrection;.. Of course it is, it says so. We are "risen" in Christ because He has risen.
quote:
it's talking about YESHUA`S resurrection and our connection to HIM! HE is the firstfruits of the Resurrection! HE is the Resurrection and the Life! Will you indeed "never die?" This has nothing to do with never dying. It concerns God giving a new resurrected spirit when we become born from above - saved.
quote:
No, the Bible is VERY clear on this point (although the amillennialists have such trouble with a single phrase): We shall live and reign with the Messiah for a thousand years (Greek: chilia etee) while haSatan is incarcerated in Hades! And, however one might like to deny that it is a literal 1000 years, that's what the Greek says! not once, but SIX TIMES! Exactly, six times - some of the 1000 yr references have a beginning and an end. Yet, some speak of eternity...clear proof that 1000 is metaphoric. It means the completion of whatever God has in view, this is precisely what we see throughout Scripture when it speaks of 10, 100, 1000, 10,000.
quote:
Furthermore, the logic is simple! A person is incomplete without his or her body! Thus, in order for a man or a woman to be able to reign with the Messiah, one must have his or her body back! That's resurrection! Your logic may be simple but it's not scriptural. Col 3:1 is speaking about NOW "if ye then be risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
quote:
What is it that we believers are to anticipate? Not "going to heaven!" Rather, we are to anticipate the "redemption of our bodies!" (Romans 8:23) All the "souls under the altar" await the completion of their salvation. But, that doesn't negate the fact that their spirits have been resurrected - made alive. This is the only reason that anyone is in heaven in their soul existence....because it has been made alive, it has been risen, it has been made perfect.
quote:
Get your facts straight! The Scriptures are repleat with prophecies about a resurrection BEFORE the Messiah's Kingdom! Oh, my facts are quite "straight" since them come straight from Scripture. There is no 1000 yr reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth and before we experience the "second" resurrection the "first" resurrection occurs - that of our spirit.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/20/2009 1:57:23 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 773
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, kelman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
Kelman said, "they have been spiritually resurrected and God calls this the "first resurrection"." Yep, you're correct, that what I said because that's what Scripture teaches.
quote:
WOW! Where do I start? It belongs in another category. What comes out of the graves??? This is Christianity 1 0 1 man! Uh, bodies come out of the grave....but the spirits of those who have died in Christ are NOT in the grave. They are with their Lord in heaven awaiting the second resurrection - that of their gloried spiritual bodies at the rapture.
quote:
"..he that believeth in ME shall never die..." so we are spiritually made alive when we are saved. WHAT is resurrected then? Look up the word in a dictionary at least. Scripture speaks of being made "spiritually alive" or being "born again" or RAISED Col 3:1 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
It is more profitable to "look up the word" in the Bible - not a secular dictionary - if you wish to know how God's uses a word.
quote:
Also you say, "Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years." Yep, after a metaphorical 1000 years or for the completeness of time/of God's plan. It is only the misunderstanding or the outright refusal to even attempt to learn how God uses 1000 years that has led to the erroneous theology of a 1000 year reign on this sin-cursed earth.
First, that is NOT what the Scriptures teach! "Spiritual resurrection," the way you mean it, is an oxymoron, like saying "jumbo shrimp!" You are using a metaphoric, allegorical method of interpretation. Wow...nothing oxymoronic about God making what was dead come alive. It's as metaphorical as being "born from above" is and just as scriptural especially since it's precisely the same event.
But, can’t you see that you’ve given a “spiritual” (oooh! I HATE that word!) understanding to something that was to be taken literally? We are not “resurrected”; we are “resurrected-with-Christ!” Just like we are no more “sinners” but “sinners-saved-by-grace,” we are not yet “resurrected!” We are only “resurrected-with-Christ!” HE is the only One thus far who has been so resurrected! It’s not yet a REAL resurrection for us; it is the PROMISE of a real resurrection! On the other hand, it WILL be a VERY real resurrection for us when He returns. It’s a VERY REAL promise of a VERY REAL resurrection; not just some mystical, ethereal, allegorical, “spiritual” resurrection that only exists in some “spiritual” other realm! We are AWAITING our redemption! We are AWAITING our adoption!
Rom 8:16-25
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (If we’ve already got it, why hope for it??!!!)
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
You are using a metaphoric, allegorical method of interpretation. Yep, just as the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us...."the lamb of God". Take your argument to Him.
The “Lord Jesus Christ” or rather our Master Yeshua` the Messiah of Elohiym, Anointed to be the King of Isra’el does NOT teach us to use a metaphoric or allegorical method of interpretation! Even as haKeves Elohiym (“the lamb of God”), He was LITERALLY slaughtered for our sins!
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
This is a FALSE interpretation of Scripture MADE UP by those who could not stomach the grammatical/historical method of interpretation that was common in the first and second centuries A.D. In the late 2nd century and into the third century, false teachers started to steer the "Church" away from their Jewish roots and from the normal grammatical/historical method of interpretation saying that the Tanakh (the Old Testament) should be interpreted as being fulfilled in the "Church," and saying that the "Church" replaced Isra'el as God's people. That's just plain silly and has nothing to with God "raising" our dead spirit so that we have life in Christ.
Humph! It has EVERYTHING to do with God raising our dead bodies giving them back their breath (Hebrew: ruach, Greek: pneuma, both translated “spirit!”)
Rom 11:11-15
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
KJV
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Col. 3:1 is not talking about OUR resurrection;.. Of course it is, it says so. We are "risen" in Christ because He has risen.
There’s a fine line here: We are indeed “risen with Christ”; it’s a done deal, a promise from God that as the Messiah was raised to life, so we too shall be raised to life. HOWEVER, we do not as yet have our immortal, incorruptible bodies! Those bodies will be the FULFILLMENT of God’s promise to us!
1 Cor 15:42-54
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
it's talking about YESHUA`S resurrection and our connection to HIM! HE is the firstfruits of the Resurrection! HE is the Resurrection and the Life! Will you indeed "never die?" This has nothing to do with never dying. It concerns God giving a new resurrected spirit when we become born from above – saved.
Wow. Even in John 3 it’s about “never dying!” What do you think “being saved” or “being born again” is exactly? Kelman, my friend, I think you’d better re-think this one.
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
No, the Bible is VERY clear on this point (although the amillennialists have such trouble with a single phrase): We shall live and reign with the Messiah for a thousand years (Greek: chilia etee) while haSatan is incarcerated in Hades! And, however one might like to deny that it is a literal 1000 years, that's what the Greek says! not once, but SIX TIMES! Exactly, six times - some of the 1000 yr references have a beginning and an end. Yet, some speak of eternity...clear proof that 1000 is metaphoric. It means the completion of whatever God has in view, this is precisely what we see throughout Scripture when it speaks of 10, 100, 1000, 10,000.
Where do you get 1000 yr references that speak of eternity? NAME ONE! One might interpret them that way, but how much clearer it is when you just accept that a “thousand years” is just that! A THOUSAND YEARS, not 1001 or 999, but precisely 1000 years!
Furthermore, even by the weirdest interpretation of gemetria and the Qabal, NO ONE accepts that 10,000, 1000, 100, or 10 is completion! SEVEN is the number of completion, and 10 is the number of the Law!
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Furthermore, the logic is simple! A person is incomplete without his or her body! Thus, in order for a man or a woman to be able to reign with the Messiah, one must have his or her body back! That's resurrection! Your logic may be simple but it's not scriptural. Col 3:1 is speaking about NOW "if ye then be risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
Excuse me???!!!! Look:
First:
From the languages of both Hebrew and Greek, the “soul” (Hebrew: nefesh, Greek: psuchee) is an “animated body,” “a creature that has breath,” or a “breather!” The “spirit” (Hebrew: ruach, Greek: pneuma) IS that “wind,” “blast” of air, or ”breath!” And, the “body” (Hebrew: geviya`, Greek: sooma) is indeed the “body!” Therefore, a “soul” is the combination of the “body” and the “spirit”; the “breather” is a combination of the “body” and the “breath!”
Second:
IN THE SCRIPTURES, we are NOT told to look forward to going to heaven! We are told to watch for HIS coming! We are told to watch for HIM resurrecting our bodies!
Phil 3:7-11
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
KJV
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
What is it that we believers are to anticipate? Not "going to heaven!" Rather, we are to anticipate the "redemption of our bodies!" (Romans 8:23) All the "souls under the altar" await the completion of their salvation. But, that doesn't negate the fact that their spirits have been resurrected - made alive. This is the only reason that anyone is in heaven in their soul existence....because it has been made alive, it has been risen, it has been made perfect.
You are making some theologically-based assumptions, here. WHO SAYS that the “souls under the altar” are awaiting the completion of their salvation?! WHO SAYS that “anyone is in heaven in their soul existence?” This stance is in itself a THEORY ONLY that is NOT fully supported by Scripture!
Remember Kefa’s (Peter’s) words AFTER the resurrection of the Messiah, thus AFTER He supposedly “led captivity captive”:
Acts 2:22-36
22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,d put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:
"'I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will live in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the grave,
nor will you let your Holy One see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.
29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
"'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
NIV
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
Get your facts straight! The Scriptures are repleat with prophecies about a resurrection BEFORE the Messiah's Kingdom! Oh, my facts are quite "straight" since them come straight from Scripture. There is no 1000 yr reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth and before we experience the "second" resurrection the "first" resurrection occurs - that of our spirit.
Just because we live on a “sin-cursed earth” does NOT mean that it must be cleaned up before the Messiah returns or changed into the New Earth before He returns! To the contrary, HE is the One who begins the clean-up process! Read the prophecies of the Tanakh (the “Old Testament”)—preferably in a single sitting, if possible—and notice how God through His Emissary the Messiah handles the nations who have come against Isra’el and Y’hudah (Judah)! No, there WILL be a clean-up process first and that’s AFTER the seven years of Dani’el’s final week of years!
A prophetic time line will help you.
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/20/2009 9:02:13 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2587
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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You think that "1000 years" REPRESENTS "forever" and that's why you believe it is figurative and symbolic, but have you considered the position that "1000 years" is a very small SUBSET of "forever?"
No, 1000 represents the completeness of whatever God has in view. That is how Satan can be said to be "bound" for a 1000 years when he was bound at the cross which obviously is considerably more than a 1000 years.
Can you explain what you meant by Satan being "bound at the cross"? Thank you.
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/23/2009 2:40:16 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, kelman.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, kelman.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: Uriah
Kelman said, "they have been spiritually resurrected and God calls this the "first resurrection"." Yep, you're correct, that what I said because that's what Scripture teaches.
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WOW! Where do I start? It belongs in another category. What comes out of the graves??? This is Christianity 1 0 1 man! Uh, bodies come out of the grave....but the spirits of those who have died in Christ are NOT in the grave. They are with their Lord in heaven awaiting the second resurrection - that of their gloried spiritual bodies at the rapture.
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"..he that believeth in ME shall never die..." so we are spiritually made alive when we are saved. WHAT is resurrected then? Look up the word in a dictionary at least. Scripture speaks of being made "spiritually alive" or being "born again" or RAISED Col 3:1 "If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
It is more profitable to "look up the word" in the Bible - not a secular dictionary - if you wish to know how God's uses a word.
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Also you say, "Jesus comes to rapture believers and destroy this world "after" the 1000 years." Yep, after a metaphorical 1000 years or for the completeness of time/of God's plan. It is only the misunderstanding or the outright refusal to even attempt to learn how God uses 1000 years that has led to the erroneous theology of a 1000 year reign on this sin-cursed earth.
First, that is NOT what the Scriptures teach! "Spiritual resurrection," the way you mean it, is an oxymoron, like saying "jumbo shrimp!" You are using a metaphoric, allegorical method of interpretation. Wow...nothing oxymoronic about God making what was dead come alive. It's as metaphorical as being "born from above" is and just as scriptural especially since it's precisely the same event.
But, can’t you see that you’ve given a “spiritual” (oooh! I HATE that word!) understanding to something that was to be taken literally? We are not “resurrected”; we are “resurrected-with-Christ!” Because something is a spiritual occurrence, that doesn't render it non-literal. It is a spiritual resurrection of the soul (being born from above) which is an actual occurrence.
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Just like we are no more “sinners” but “sinners-saved-by-grace,” we are not yet “resurrected!” We are only “resurrected-with-Christ!” HE is the only One thus far who has been so resurrected! Obviously, our bodies are not presently resurrected but the spirits of all born again believers definitely are as seen in Col 3:1.
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It’s not yet a REAL resurrection for us; it is the PROMISE of a real resurrection! Hmm, I'm sure the Holy Spirit would be interested to know that what He does is not "real".
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On the other hand, it WILL be a VERY real resurrection for us when He returns. It’s a VERY REAL promise of a VERY REAL resurrection; not just some mystical, ethereal, allegorical, “spiritual” resurrection that only exists in some “spiritual” other realm! We are AWAITING our redemption! We are AWAITING our adoption! It is no less "real" when the spirit is risen and made alive than when the dead body is resurrected and made alive. Scripture tells us that if we are "in Christ" we are ALREADY adopted sons of God. Adoption applies to the past, present and future.
Past, because we are predestined Eph 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"
Present, because it says we have received in Rom 8:15 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."
Future, in Rom 3:23, as we eagerly await: "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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You are using a metaphoric, allegorical method of interpretation. Yep, just as the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us...."the lamb of God". Take your argument to Him.
The “Lord Jesus Christ” or rather our Master Yeshua` the Messiah of Elohiym, Anointed to be the King of Isra’el does NOT teach us to use a metaphoric or allegorical method of interpretation! Even as haKeves Elohiym (“the lamb of God”), He was LITERALLY slaughtered for our sins! Of course, the Lord Jesus Christ teaches us that He spoke in parables and "without a parable, He did not speak". Besides, that very verse proves this point since Christ most emphatically is NOT an animal. If you don’t think Christ spoke metaphorically, just read John 6 again.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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This is a FALSE interpretation of Scripture MADE UP by those who could not stomach the grammatical/historical method of interpretation that was common in the first and second centuries A.D. In the late 2nd century and into the third century, false teachers started to steer the "Church" away from their Jewish roots and from the normal grammatical/historical method of interpretation saying that the Tanakh (the Old Testament) should be interpreted as being fulfilled in the "Church," and saying that the "Church" replaced Isra'el as God's people. That's just plain silly and has nothing to with God "raising" our dead spirit so that we have life in Christ.
Humph! It has EVERYTHING to do with God raising our dead bodies giving them back their breath (Hebrew: ruach, Greek: pneuma, both translated “spirit!”) No, it was irrelevant. The soul of a true believer never dies....Scripture is clear on that. When the true believer dies, his spirit goes to be with the Lord...Scripture is clear on that as we see from the account of the thief on the cross.
Since you don't believe this...what do you believe?...soul sleep for the believer?
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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Col. 3:1 is not talking about OUR resurrection;.. Of course it is, it says so. We are "risen" in Christ because He has risen.
There’s a fine line here: We are indeed “risen with Christ”; it’s a done deal, a promise from God that as the Messiah was raised to life, so we too shall be raised to life. HOWEVER, we do not as yet have our immortal, incorruptible bodies! Those bodies will be the FULFILLMENT of God’s promise to us! Who’s said anything about “bodies”?....not me. I’ve been speaking about the risen soul of the believer. So there is no “fine line here” that I can see.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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it's talking about YESHUA`S resurrection and our connection to HIM! HE is the firstfruits of the Resurrection! HE is the Resurrection and the Life! Will you indeed "never die?" This has nothing to do with never dying. It concerns God giving a new resurrected spirit when we become born from above – saved.
Wow. Even in John 3 it’s about “never dying!” What do you think “being saved” or “being born again” is exactly? Kelman, my friend, I think you’d better re-think this one. Nothing to "rethink" since Scripture is abundantly clear on this point - that God makes the spirit of the believer alive/risen. I'm rather surprised you so adamantly fight what God so clearly describes in Scripture. Oh, btw, “being saved” or “being born again” means God has given us a new resurrected soul as we see in Col 3:1.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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No, the Bible is VERY clear on this point (although the amillennialists have such trouble with a single phrase): We shall live and reign with the Messiah for a thousand years (Greek: chilia etee) while haSatan is incarcerated in Hades! And, however one might like to deny that it is a literal 1000 years, that's what the Greek says! not once, but SIX TIMES! Exactly, six times - some of the 1000 yr references have a beginning and an end. Yet, some speak of eternity...clear proof that 1000 is metaphoric. It means the completion of whatever God has in view, this is precisely what we see throughout Scripture when it speaks of 10, 100, 1000, 10,000.
Where do you get 1000 yr references that speak of eternity? NAME ONE! One might interpret them that way, but how much clearer it is when you just accept that a “thousand years” is just that! A THOUSAND YEARS, not 1001 or 999, but precisely 1000 years! Why do you prefer to only live 1000 years with Christ instead of an eternity?
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Furthermore, even by the weirdest interpretation of gemetria and the Qabal, NO ONE accepts that 10,000, 1000, 100, or 10 is completion! SEVEN is the number of completion, and 10 is the number of the Law! Then you haven't bothered to study God's uses of those terms in Scripture. You should, you might be surprised. As for SEVEN, God uses it to describe perfection. I'd give you the verses; but it's really not worth the effort since you've shown yourself to be rather closeminded on the subject.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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Furthermore, the logic is simple! A person is incomplete without his or her body! Thus, in order for a man or a woman to be able to reign with the Messiah, one must have his or her body back! That's resurrection! Your logic may be simple but it's not scriptural. Col 3:1 is speaking about NOW "if ye then be risen with Christ seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God."
Excuse me???!!!! Look:
First:
From the languages of both Hebrew and Greek, the “soul” (Hebrew: nefesh, Greek: psuchee) is an “animated body,” “a creature that has breath,” or a “breather!” The “spirit” (Hebrew: ruach, Greek: pneuma) IS that “wind,” “blast” of air, or ”breath!” And, the “body” (Hebrew: geviya`, Greek: sooma) is indeed the “body!” Therefore, a “soul” is the combination of the “body” and the “spirit”; the “breather” is a combination of the “body” and the “breath!” This may be your definition perhaps but not what we find in Scripture. Presumably we can agree on what "the body" is? After the Fall, man's soul is dead because it lost its spiritual life in Christ which Adam had before he sinned. When man becomes "born from above" his soul is risen or made alive in Christ. Man now has spiritual life in Christ as Adam did before the Fall.
We see in 1 Cor 2:12: "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." This is referring to the “new heart” and “new spirit” that God puts in His children, into His people, where once again we now have a living spirit. It has been resurrected. It is the “first resurrection,” Rev 20 calls it. We are brought to life in our inner being, in our soul.
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Second:
IN THE SCRIPTURES, we are NOT told to look forward to going to heaven! We are told to watch for HIS coming! We are told to watch for HIM resurrecting our bodies! Again, you continue to twist what I've been saying. I've yet to speak about “looking forward to going to heaven”, although, Scripture does, in fact, declare that we are to “look forward” to it(2Pet 3:13; Rev 21:1). What I have actually been saying is that when we are "born from above" we are given a new resurrected soul - just as Scripture declares.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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What is it that we believers are to anticipate? Not "going to heaven!" Rather, we are to anticipate the "redemption of our bodies!" (Romans 8:23) All the "souls under the altar" await the completion of their salvation. But, that doesn't negate the fact that their spirits have been resurrected - made alive. This is the only reason that anyone is in heaven in their soul existence....because it has been made alive, it has been risen, it has been made perfect.
You are making some theologically-based assumptions, here. WHO SAYS that the “souls under the altar” are awaiting the completion of their salvation?! That would be God, that’s WHO. The verse is speaking about the “souls under the altar” awaiting the consummation of the last day when all believers who are in heaven in their soul existence will be reunited with their glorious spiritual resurrected bodies Rev 6:10 ”And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”
In addition we have Rom 8:23 "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
And in 1Cor 5:8 Paul declares that if he were dead he'd be with the Lord and, of course, that can only mean in his soul existence. So, he too(as a soul under the altar) awaits the resurrection of his body.
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WHO SAYS that “anyone is in heaven in their soul existence?” This stance is in itself a THEORY ONLY that is NOT fully supported by Scripture! Again, that would be God, that's WHO.
1Thes 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
And, of course, the thief on the cross who was told by the Lord Jesus that he would be with Him "to day" in paradise. Both bodies were in the tomb so they, the Lord and the thief, were in heaven in their soul existence.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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Get your facts straight! The Scriptures are repleat with prophecies about a resurrection BEFORE the Messiah's Kingdom! Oh, my facts are quite "straight" since them come straight from Scripture. There is no 1000 yr reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth and before we experience the "second" resurrection the "first" resurrection occurs - that of our spirit.
Just because we live on a “sin-cursed earth” does NOT mean that it must be cleaned up before the Messiah returns or changed into the New Earth before He returns! To the contrary, HE is the One who begins the clean-up process! Read the prophecies of the Tanakh (the “Old Testament”)—preferably in a single sitting, if possible—and notice how God through His Emissary the Messiah handles the nations who have come against Isra’el and Y’hudah (Judah)! No, there WILL be a clean-up process first and that’s AFTER the seven years of Dani’el’s final week of years!
A prophetic time line will help you. I'm not convinced that timeline of your's would help anyone.
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"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/23/2009 3:00:51 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: ManimalX
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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You think that "1000 years" REPRESENTS "forever" and that's why you believe it is figurative and symbolic, but have you considered the position that "1000 years" is a very small SUBSET of "forever?"
No, 1000 represents the completeness of whatever God has in view. That is how Satan can be said to be "bound" for a 1000 years when he was bound at the cross which obviously is considerably more than a 1000 years.
Can you explain what you meant by Satan being "bound at the cross"? Thank you.
We see the Lord Jesus Christ teaching in Mat 12:29 that the strongman must first be bound before his house can be plundered. All the unsaved are in bondage to sin and Satan and can be said to be in the “kingdom of Satan”(Luke 11:18). Believers are “plundered” from Satan’s house by virtue of the Lord Jesus’ work on the cross.
In Rev 12:7-11, we see that Satan was cast out of heaven and was overcome ”by the blood of the Lamb”, another reference to Satan being bound at the cross.
Now what does it mean that Satan was bound? First, we know what it doesn’t mean. It doesn’t mean that this “binding” prevented him from going about as a “roaring lion”(1Pet 5:8). The success of the church age has been greatly hindered by Satan as he comes as an “angel of light” bringing his “ministers of righteousness”. He’s been very effectively sowing tares within the church. Still, the Gospel has gone out into all the world and Bibles are plentiful, that was a great success for the church.
It meant that Satan was banished from heaven and was bound so that he could not deceive the nations during the complete period of the church age, which was symbolically described as a period of 1,000 years(Rev 20:1-3).
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/23/2009 10:43:59 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2279
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
It meant that Satan was banished from heaven and was bound so that he could not deceive the nations during the complete period of the church age, which was symbolically described as a period of 1,000 years(Rev 20:1-3).
Revelation 20:1-3 is the description of the rule of Christ during the millennium, not the Church age which we are currently in.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/23/2009 11:12:53 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1957
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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Kelman, Shalom.
Since Bob's Biblical offering is not making sense to you, perhaps this might:
Pinto and Continental, are both automobiles, but there the similarity ends. Say Pinto must be retired from the road, after 1,000 years, and call Continental eternally/forever fueled, and 'never' is taken out of service, and never wears out. They both travel down the same type road, but one doesn't last nearly as long as far as distance traveled, comfort, and guaranteed. Now take your pick for the one you wish to drive forever.
There is a difference, sort of like Satan (the pinto), doomed to be removed from service, and God, the Continental, perfect forever. Hmmm, I like that.
In Messiah, your choice. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/24/2009 12:20:01 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 773
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, kelman.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
You think that "1000 years" REPRESENTS "forever" and that's why you believe it is figurative and symbolic, but have you considered the position that "1000 years" is a very small SUBSET of "forever?"
No, 1000 represents the completeness of whatever God has in view. That is how Satan can be said to be "bound" for a 1000 years when he was bound at the cross which obviously is considerably more than a 1000 years.
And therein lies the rub. You are UNWILLING to consider that "1000 years" could be a subset of "forever." Whatever your reasons, this stubborn refusal to even consider the possibility is what holds you back from obvious truth. You are just unwilling to pursue it to its natural end.
I'll be praying for you to explore the possibilities.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
P.S. Our last exchange was getting very complicated; so, to improve readability and to shorten it to its essentials, I've printed it out (8 PAGES on my printer), and I'll cut it down a bit. Don't worry, as is my nature, I'll cut you some slack in the editing process and not change anything of what you said. I'll just add my rebuttals. (I've had to use some techniques I learned as a programmer programming in LISP, which we nicknamed "Lost In Stupid Parentheses," to figure out who said what and when. LOL!)
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/24/2009 2:07:20 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
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It meant that Satan was banished from heaven and was bound so that he could not deceive the nations during the complete period of the church age, which was symbolically described as a period of 1,000 years(Rev 20:1-3).
Revelation 20:1-3 is the description of the rule of Christ during the millennium, not the Church age which we are currently in.
Bob
Nope, Scripture doesn't teach that, therefore, I cannot agree with you. There is no 1000 year rule of Christ on this earth. This is the period of time during which Satan was bound so that the Gospel could go out across the world. Later on, we see in vs 7 that Satan is loosed(for a symbolic 1000 years) to again deceive the people which will transition into the culmination.
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"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/24/2009 2:08:49 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Kelman, Shalom.
Since Bob's Biblical offering is not making sense to you, perhaps this might:
Pinto and Continental, are both automobiles, but there the similarity ends. Say Pinto must be retired from the road, after 1,000 years, and call Continental eternally/forever fueled, and 'never' is taken out of service, and never wears out. They both travel down the same type road, but one doesn't last nearly as long as far as distance traveled, comfort, and guaranteed. Now take your pick for the one you wish to drive forever.
There is a difference, sort of like Satan (the pinto), doomed to be removed from service, and God, the Continental, perfect forever. Hmmm, I like that.
In Messiah, your choice. Arley
Unfortunately, I'm left to seriously wonder about those who would imply that because I don't agree with their eschatological views, I "picked the pinto to drive".
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/24/2009 2:10:08 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, kelman.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
You think that "1000 years" REPRESENTS "forever" and that's why you believe it is figurative and symbolic, but have you considered the position that "1000 years" is a very small SUBSET of "forever?"
No, 1000 represents the completeness of whatever God has in view. That is how Satan can be said to be "bound" for a 1000 years when he was bound at the cross which obviously is considerably more than a 1000 years. And therein lies the rub. You are UNWILLING to consider that "1000 years" could be a subset of "forever." Whatever your reasons, this stubborn refusal to even consider the possibility is what holds you back from obvious truth. You are just unwilling to pursue it to its natural end. No, what holds me back from agreeing with you is the evidence from Scripture. It's notable you say I'm "UNWILLING" yet you refuse to even investigate Scripture as it pertains to its use of 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000.
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P.S. Our last exchange was getting very complicated; so, to improve readability and to shorten it to its essentials, I've printed it out (8 PAGES on my printer), and I'll cut it down a bit. Don't worry, as is my nature, I'll cut you some slack in the editing process and not change anything of what you said. I'll just add my rebuttals. (I've had to use some techniques I learned as a programmer programming in LISP, which we nicknamed "Lost In Stupid Parentheses," to figure out who said what and when. LOL!) This should be interesting :)
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/24/2009 8:43:00 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2279
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Hi kelman,
I'm in a hurry this morning but you really need to read and study Rev 12. You'll find that Satan is still alive and well and is not cast from heaven until the middle of the last week, when in verse 7, Michael forces Satan from Heaven and cast him to earth. At that time he has 42 months to display his great anger and wrath against those of God.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/24/2009 10:19:50 AM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1957
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Kelman, Shalom.
Since Bob's Biblical offering is not making sense to you, perhaps this might:
Pinto and Continental, are both automobiles, but there the similarity ends. Say Pinto must be retired from the road, after 1,000 years, and call Continental eternally/forever fueled, and 'never' is taken out of service, and never wears out. They both travel down the same type road, but one doesn't last nearly as long as far as distance traveled, comfort, and guaranteed. Now take your pick for the one you wish to drive forever.
There is a difference, sort of like Satan (the pinto), doomed to be removed from service, and God, the Continental, perfect forever. Hmmm, I like that.
In Messiah, your choice. Arley
Unfortunately, I'm left to seriously wonder about those who would imply that because I don't agree with their eschatological views, I "picked the pinto to drive".
Kelman, Shalom.
Thank you for your words. Please do not 'seriously wonder' too deeply. I guess I really didn't expect you to give consideration to the smarts of anyone but self, anyway. Good luck in your search for truth. I gave up discussing logic with the bulk-head, once I left off living in a tube for months at a time. Bob, and Roy are far more patient than I.
In Messiah, His Shalom to you, as you discuss your way into Eternity. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/25/2009 3:15:01 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi kelman,
I'm in a hurry this morning but you really need to read and study Rev 12. You'll find that Satan is still alive and well and is not cast from heaven until the middle of the last week, when in verse 7, Michael forces Satan from Heaven and cast him to earth. At that time he has 42 months to display his great anger and wrath against those of God.
Bob
Rev 12:7-11 describes the victory Christ won over Satan when Christ went to the cross. Michael is Christ who defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb(Christ gave His life as the sacrificial Lamb). The result was that Satan was given a death blow - he was cast out of heaven. He was bound so that he could no longer deceive the nations(Rev 20:2,3).
The 1260 days of Rev 12 represents the NT period from the cross to the end of the world. And yes, it is the same period of time set forth in Dan 9:27 where God emphasizes there is a half of week from the cessation of sacrifice and offering(this occurred when Christ was offered as the sacrifice), until the abominations of desolations and the consummation(the end of the world).
So, as you can see, Bob, I have "read and studied" Rev 12 even if I come to very different conclusions than you.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/25/2009 3:27:03 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: navyblueret
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: navyblueret
Kelman, Shalom.
Since Bob's Biblical offering is not making sense to you, perhaps this might:
Pinto and Continental, are both automobiles, but there the similarity ends. Say Pinto must be retired from the road, after 1,000 years, and call Continental eternally/forever fueled, and 'never' is taken out of service, and never wears out. They both travel down the same type road, but one doesn't last nearly as long as far as distance traveled, comfort, and guaranteed. Now take your pick for the one you wish to drive forever.
There is a difference, sort of like Satan (the pinto), doomed to be removed from service, and God, the Continental, perfect forever. Hmmm, I like that.
In Messiah, your choice. Arley
Unfortunately, I'm left to seriously wonder about those who would imply that because I don't agree with their eschatological views, I "picked the pinto to drive".
Kelman, Shalom.
Thank you for your words. Please do not 'seriously wonder' too deeply. Each succeeding post of yours should lead everyone to "seriously wonder".
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I guess I really didn't expect you to give consideration to the smarts of anyone but self, anyway. I've considered your "smarts" and reject them outright as having little wisdom since they imply those who don't agree with you are headed for hell. Apparently, you've got your own little gospel going there for yourself.
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Good luck in your search for truth. I gave up discussing logic with the bulk-head, once I left off living in a tube for months at a time. If your little "pinto" analogy and its arrogant conclusion is your idea of "logic", it fails big time since it demonstrates none.
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Bob, and Roy are far more patient than I. Well at least they haven't posted a "going to hell" analogy - yet.
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In Messiah, His Shalom to you, as you discuss your way into Eternity. Arley
Seems you're here and elsewhere "discussing" your way into eternity - good luck with that.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/25/2009 10:43:04 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2279
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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So, as you can see, Bob, I have "read and studied" Rev 12 even if I come to very different conclusions than you.
No doubt that you have read it brother, but don't think that you understand it for what it is.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/25/2009 3:10:04 PM
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kelman
Posts: 5032
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: bob97
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So, as you can see, Bob, I have "read and studied" Rev 12 even if I come to very different conclusions than you.
No doubt that you have read it brother, but don't think that you understand it for what it is.
Bob
I don't know, Bob, while obviously I didn't post a complete exegesis on Rev 12:7-11, Dan 9:27 and Rev 20:2,3, still, I did write the following(italized below). I also, in a prior post, supplied scriptural support for Satan being bound at the cross.
But, it seems the best you have to offer is that I don't "understand"....you offer neither support or explanation for your position or actually attempt to show from Scripture where I'm wrong.
"Rev 12:7-11 describes the victory Christ won over Satan when Christ went to the cross. Michael is Christ who defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb(Christ gave His life as the sacrificial Lamb). The result was that Satan was given a death blow - he was cast out of heaven. He was bound so that he could no longer deceive the nations(Rev 20:2,3).
The 1260 days of Rev 12 represents the NT period from the cross to the end of the world. And yes, it is the same period of time set forth in Dan 9:27 where God emphasizes there is a half of week from the cessation of sacrifice and offering(this occurred when Christ was offered as the sacrifice), until the abominations of desolations and the consummation(the end of the world)."
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/25/2009 6:37:55 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2587
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi kelman,
I'm in a hurry this morning but you really need to read and study Rev 12. You'll find that Satan is still alive and well and is not cast from heaven until the middle of the last week, when in verse 7, Michael forces Satan from Heaven and cast him to earth. At that time he has 42 months to display his great anger and wrath against those of God.
Bob
Rev 12:7-11 describes the victory Christ won over Satan when Christ went to the cross. Michael is Christ who defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb(Christ gave His life as the sacrificial Lamb). The result was that Satan was given a death blow - he was cast out of heaven. He was bound so that he could no longer deceive the nations(Rev 20:2,3).
The 1260 days of Rev 12 represents the NT period from the cross to the end of the world. And yes, it is the same period of time set forth in Dan 9:27 where God emphasizes there is a half of week from the cessation of sacrifice and offering(this occurred when Christ was offered as the sacrifice), until the abominations of desolations and the consummation(the end of the world).
So, as you can see, Bob, I have "read and studied" Rev 12 even if I come to very different conclusions than you.
Your eschatology and hermeneutics are certainly interesting if nothing else.
The angel Michael is actually Jesus?!? Even though Hebrews makes it clear that Jesus isn't an angel? Satan is bound and can't deceive the nations? Even though the nations are obviously being deceived and the spirit of anti-Christ is obviously growing in strength on a daily basis?
And then you are getting snarky, rude, contentious, and insulting because others don't agree with you very unorthodox beliefs?
Let me give you a bit of advice: eschatology isn't worth getting so angry over. That anger is going to harm you much more than "being right" is going to benefit you.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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