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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/25/2009 7:31:37 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2278
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
"Rev 12:7-11 describes the victory Christ won over Satan when Christ went to the cross. Michael is Christ who defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb(Christ gave His life as the sacrificial Lamb). The result was that Satan was given a death blow - he was cast out of heaven. He was bound so that he could no longer deceive the nations(Rev 20:2,3).
The 1260 days of Rev 12 represents the NT period from the cross to the end of the world. And yes, it is the same period of time set forth in Dan 9:27 where God emphasizes there is a half of week from the cessation of sacrifice and offering(this occurred when Christ was offered as the sacrifice), until the abominations of desolations and the consummation(the end of the world)."
No kelman...it is you that will have to bring scripture to support your theology. My theology is pretty straight forward and is pretty much a literal reading of Revelation, I'm afraid yours isn't.
You say Satan has been cast out and bound so he can no longer deceive nations yet the victory over Satan does not occur until Rev 11:15 at the sounding of the seventh angel;
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/26/2009 5:31:45 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi kelman,
I'm in a hurry this morning but you really need to read and study Rev 12. You'll find that Satan is still alive and well and is not cast from heaven until the middle of the last week, when in verse 7, Michael forces Satan from Heaven and cast him to earth. At that time he has 42 months to display his great anger and wrath against those of God.
Bob
Rev 12:7-11 describes the victory Christ won over Satan when Christ went to the cross. Michael is Christ who defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb(Christ gave His life as the sacrificial Lamb). The result was that Satan was given a death blow - he was cast out of heaven. He was bound so that he could no longer deceive the nations(Rev 20:2,3).
The 1260 days of Rev 12 represents the NT period from the cross to the end of the world. And yes, it is the same period of time set forth in Dan 9:27 where God emphasizes there is a half of week from the cessation of sacrifice and offering(this occurred when Christ was offered as the sacrifice), until the abominations of desolations and the consummation(the end of the world).
So, as you can see, Bob, I have "read and studied" Rev 12 even if I come to very different conclusions than you.
Your eschatology and hermeneutics are certainly interesting if nothing else.
The angel Michael is actually Jesus?!? Did I say that?...no, I did not. Please read a little more carefully. Christ is not an angel. The Greek word used can and is translated messenger and, yes, Christ is the messenger.
quote:
Satan is bound and can't deceive the nations? Even though the nations are obviously being deceived and the spirit of anti-Christ is obviously growing in strength on a daily basis? You cannot determine that since Pentecost the house of God has grown?
quote:
And then you are getting snarky, rude, contentious, and insulting because others don't agree with you very unorthodox beliefs? Huh? You really don't read these posts do you? I'm the one being told I'm in the "pinto" on my way to hell because I don't agree with your eschatological beliefs. So, if anyone is "getting snarky, rude, contentious, and insulting because others don't agree", it's you and your fellow travelers - not me.
You think your views are "orthodox"?....hardly orthodox since you cannot see that Christ has been building His church effectively since Pentecost.
quote:
Let me give you a bit of advice: eschatology isn't worth getting so angry over. That anger is going to harm you much more than "being right" is going to benefit you.
You've got to be joking. It's evident from these posts that it's not me who's angry, it's your fellow 1000 yearers. Therefore, my advice to you would be to read these posts a little more carefully before you again jump to wrong conclusions.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/26/2009 5:32:58 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
"Rev 12:7-11 describes the victory Christ won over Satan when Christ went to the cross. Michael is Christ who defeated Satan by the blood of the Lamb(Christ gave His life as the sacrificial Lamb). The result was that Satan was given a death blow - he was cast out of heaven. He was bound so that he could no longer deceive the nations(Rev 20:2,3).
The 1260 days of Rev 12 represents the NT period from the cross to the end of the world. And yes, it is the same period of time set forth in Dan 9:27 where God emphasizes there is a half of week from the cessation of sacrifice and offering(this occurred when Christ was offered as the sacrifice), until the abominations of desolations and the consummation(the end of the world)."
No kelman...it is you that will have to bring scripture to support your theology. My theology is pretty straight forward and is pretty much a literal reading of Revelation, I'm afraid yours isn't. I've given evidence from Scripture that Satan is bound at the cross. You may not agree but is untruthful to say that I haven't.
quote:
You say Satan has been cast out and bound so he can no longer deceive nations yet the victory over Satan does not occur until Rev 11:15 at the sounding of the seventh angel;
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Where do you get Satan being bound from the above passage? There's nothing in it to suggest such a conclusion.
There are many passages indicating that Satan was bound at the cross. I've given a number of them in earlier posts. This one from Revelation.
Rev 12:7-11 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/27/2009 3:34:34 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, kelman.
First, let’s get this out of the way:
Here’s a search in the KJV for the words “ten,” “hundred,” and “thousand” (which will also catch “ten thousand” or even “ten thousands” in the English language):
Of the 1355 matches, MOST of them (if not all) are bound up in the exact numbers being conveyed in genealogies, such as Gen. 5 and Gen. 11. Exact mentions of 10, 100, and 1000 (let alone 10,000) are hard to find. Many of these occurrences have the words “…and ten” or “two hundred” or “four hundred,” for example, that tell us we are not dealing with JUST 10 or 100 or 1000.
The Hebrew word for “TEN” is in Strong’s Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary as 6235 `eser (adjective) or its derivative 6218 `asowr (noun). Both words stem from `asar (verb) meaning “to accumulate” or “to tithe.” (Sometimes the feminine form `asarah [noun] is involved.) We CANNOT use the plural forms of these words because that would immediately involve numbers that were not EXACTLY 10. The plural of `eser, for instance, is `esrim which is the Hebrew word for “twenty.”
The Hebrew word for HUNDRED is 3967 mee’ah (where the “ee” represents the vowel pointing called a “tseeree” and sounds like the “ay” in “hay”).
The Hebrew word for THOUSAND is 505 ’elef (which comes from “ox” the ox’s head being the first letter of the Hebrew alefbet).
Doing an Englishman’s search of these Strong’s numbers will provide a pretty well inclusive search of EVERYWHERE in the Tanakh (the Old Testament) that these words were used.
An Englishman’s search of 6235 (ten) produces 176 matches in the BHS version of the Tanakh. These verses are: Gen. 5:14; 16:3; 18:32 (2); 24:10, 22; 31:7, 41; 32:15 (2); 42:3; 45:23 (2); 50:22, 26; Ex. 26:1, 16; 27:12 (2); 34:28; 36:8, 21; 38:12 (2); Lev. 26:26; 27:5, 7; Num. 7:14, 20, 26, 32, 38, 44, 50, 65, 62, 68, 74, 80, 86 (2); 11:19, 32; 14:22; 29:23; Deut. 1:15; 4:13; 10:4; Josh. 15:57; 17:5; 21:5, 25; 22:14; 24:29; Judg. 1:4; 2:8; 3:29; 4:6, 10, 14; 6:27; 7:3; 12:11; 17:10; 20:10, 34; Ruth 1:4; 4:2; I Sam. 1:8; 15:4; 17:17, 18; 25:5, 38; II Sam. 15:16; 18:3, 11, 15; 19:43; 20:3; I Ki. 4:23; 5:14; 6:3, 23, 24, 25, 26; 7:10, 23, 24, 27, 37, 38 (2), 43 (2); 11:31 (2), 35; 14:3; II Ki. 5:5 (2); 13:7 (2); 14:7; 15:17; 20:9 (2), 10 (2), 11; 24:14; 25:25; I Chron. 6:61; 29:7; II Chron. 4:1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8; 14:1; 25:11, 12; 27:5 (2); 30:24; 36:9; Ezra 1:10; 8:12, 24; Neh. 4:12; 5:18; 11:1; Est. 3:9; 9:10, 12, 13, 14; Job 19:3; Eccl. 7:19; Isa. 5:10; 38:8 (2); Jer. 32:9; 41:1, 2, 8; 42:7; Ezek. 40:11; 41:2; 42:4; 45:1, 3, 5, 12, 14 (2); 48:9, 10 (2), 13 (2), 18 (2); Dan. 1:12, 14, 15, 20; Amos 5:3; 6:9; Hag. 2:16; Zech. 5:2; and 8:23. I have looked them all up and not a one of them is used to represent “completion.”
An Englishman’s search for the derivative 6218 (ten) produced 16 additional matches in the BHS version of the Tanakh. These verses are Gen. 24:55; Ex. 12:3; Lev. 16:29; 23:27; 25:9; Num. 29:7; Josh. 4:19; II Ki. 25:1; Ps. 33:2; 92:3; 144:9; Jer. 52:4, 12; Ezek. 20:1; 24:1; and 40:1. Most of these were translated as “tenth” in the KJV. Again, not a one was used to represent “completion.”
An Englishman’s search for 3967 (hundred) produced 579 matches. These verses are Gen. 5:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 23, 25, 26, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32; 6:3, 15; 7:6, 11, 24; 8:3, 13; 9:28, 29; 11:10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 32; 14:14; 15:13; 17:17; 21:5; 23:1, 15, 16; 25:7, 17; 26:12; 32:6, 14 (2); 33:1, 19; 35:28; 45:22; 47:9, 28; 50:22, 26; Ex. 6:16, 18, 20; 12:37, 40, 41; 14:7; 18:21, 25; 27:9, 11, 18; 30:23 (3), 24; 38:9, 11, 24, 25 (2), 26 (2), 27 (3), 28, 29; Lev. 26:8 (2); Num. 1:21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31, 33, 35, 37, 39, 41, 43, 46 (2); 2:4, 6, 8, 9 (2), 11, 13, 15, 16 (2), 19, 21, 23, 24 (2), 26, 28, 30, 31 (2), 32 (2); 3:22, 28, 34, 43, 46, 50; 4:36, 40, 44, 48; 7:13, 19, 25, 31, 37, 43, 49, 55, 61, 67, 73, 79, 85 (2), 86; 11:21; 16:2, 17, 35, 49; 26:7, 10, 14, 18, 22, 25, 27, 34, 37, 41, 43, 47, 50, 51 (2); 31:14, 28, 32, 36 (2), 37, 39, 43 (2), 45, 48, 52 (2), 54; 33:39; Deut. 1:15; 22:19; 31:2; 34:7; Josh. 7:21; 24:29, 32; Judg. 2:8; 3:31; 4:3, 13; 7:6, 7, 8, 16, 19, 22; 8:4, 10, 26; 11:26; 15:4; 16:5; 17:2, 3, 4; 18:11, 16, 17; 20:2, 10 (2), 15, 16, 17, 35, 47; 21:12; I Sam. 11:8; 13:15; 14:2; 15:4; 17:7; 18:25, 27; 22:2, 7; 23:13; 25:13 (2), 18 (3); 27:2; 29:2; 30:9, 10 (2), 17, 21; II Sam. 2:31; 3:13; 8:4 (2); 10:18; 14:26; 15:11, 18; 16:1 (3); 18:1, 4; 21:26; 23:8, 18; 24:3, 9 (2); I Ki. 4:23; 5:16; 6:1; 7:2, 20, 42; 8:63; 9:14, 23, 28; 10:10, 14, 16 (2), 17, 26, 29 (2); 11:3 (2); 12:21; 18:4, 13, 19 (2), 22; 20:15, 29; 22:6; II Ki. 3:4 (2), 26; 4:43; 11:4, 9, 10, 15, 19; 14:13; 18:14; 23:33; I Chron. 4:42; 5:18, 21 (2); 7:2, 9, 11; 8:40; 9:6, 9, 13, 22; 11:11, 20; 12:14, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30, 32, 35, 37; 13:1; 15:5, 6, 7, 8, 10; 18:4; 21:3, 5 (2), 25; 22:14; 25:7; 26:26, 30, 32; 27:1; 28:1; 29:6, 7; II Chron. 1:2, 14, 17 (2); 2:2, 17 (2), 18; 3:4, 8, 16; 4:8, 13; 5:12; 7:5; 8:10, 18; 9:9, 13, 15 (2), 16 (2); 11:1; 12:3; 13:3 (2), 17; 14:8 (2), 9; 15:11; 17:11 (2), 14, 15, 16, 17, 18; 18:5; 23:1, 9, 14, 20; 24:15; 25:5 (2), 6 (2), 9, 23; 26:12, 13 (2); 27:5; 28:6, 8; 29:32 (2), 33; 35:8 (2), 9; 36:3; Ezra 1:10, 11; 2:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, 23, 25, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 38, 41, 42, 58, 60, 64, 65 (2), 66 (2), 67 (2), 69; 8:3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 12, 20, 26 (3); Neh. 5:11, 17; 7:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 41, 44, 45, 60, 62, 66, 67 (2), 69 (2), 70, 71; 11:6, 8, 12, 13, 14, 18, 19; Est. 1:1, 4; 8:9; 9:6, 12, 15, 30; Job 1:3 (2); 42:16; Prov. 17:10; Eccl. 6:3; 8:12; Song 8:12; Isa. 37:36; 65:20 (2); Jer. 52:23, 29, 30 (2); Ezek. 4:5, 9; 40:19, 23, 27, 47 (2); 41:13 (2), 14, 15; 42:2, 9, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 (2); 45:2 (2), 15; 48:16 (4), 17 (4), 30, 32, 33, 34; Dan. 8:14; 12:11, 12; and Amos 5:3 (2).
An Englishman’s search for 505 (thousand) ironically produced 505 matches: These verses are Gen. 20:16; 24:60; Ex. 12:37; 18:21, 25; 20:6; 32:28; 34:7; 38:25, 26 (2), 28, 29; Num. 1:16, 21, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31, 33, 35, 37, 39, 41, 43, 46 (2); 2:4, 6, 8, 9 (3), 11, 13, 15, 16 (2), 19 21, 23, 24 (2), 26, 28, 30, 31 (2), 32 (2); 3:22, 28, 34, 39, 43, 50; 4:36, 40, 44, 48; 7:85; 10:4, 36; 11:21; 16:49; 25:9; 26:7, 14, 19, 22, 25, 27, 34, 37, 41, 43, 47, 50, 51 (2), 62; 31:4 (2), 5 (3), 6, 14, 32 (3), 33, 34, 35, 36 (3), 38, 39, 40, 43 (3), 44, 45, 46, 48 (2), 52 (2), 54; 35:4, 5 (4); Deut. 1:11, 15; 5:10; 7:9; 32:30; 33:17; Josh. 3:4; 4:13; 7:3 (2), 4; 8:3, 12, 25; 22:14, 21, 30; 23:10; Judg. 1:4; 3:29; 4:6, 10, 14; 5:8; 7:3 (2); 8:10 (2), 26; 9:49; 12:6; 15:11, 15, 16; 16:5, 27; 17:2, 3; 20:2, 10 (2), 15, 17, 21, 25, 34, 35, 44, 45 (2), 46; 21:10; I Sam. 4:2, 10; 6:19; 8:12; 10:19; 11:8 (2); 13:2 (3), 5 (2); 15:4 (2); 17:5, 18; 18:7, 8, 13; 21:11; 22:7, 23; 24:2; 25:2 (2); 26:2; 29:2, 5; II Sam. 6:1; 8:4 (2), 5, 13; 10:6 (3), 18; 17:1; 18:1, 3, 4, 7, 12; 19:17; 24:9 (2), 15; I Ki. 3:4; 4:26 (2), 32 (2); 5:11, 13, 14, 15 (2), 16; 7:26; 8:63 (2); 10:26 (2); 12:21; 19:18; 20:15, 29, 30; II Ki. 3:4 (2); 5:5; 13:7; 14:7; 15:19; 18:23; 19:35; 24:14, 16 (2); I Chron. 5:18, 21 (4); 7:2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 40; 9:13; 12:14, 20, 24, 25, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 33, 34 (2), 35, 36, 37; 13:1; 15:25; 16:15; 18:4 (3), 5, 12; 19:6, 7, 18 (2); 21:5 (4), 14; 22:14 (3); 23:3, 4 (2), 5 (2); 26:26, 30, 32; 27:1 (2), 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15; 28:1; 29:4 (2), 6, 7 (4), 21 (3); II Chron. 1:2, 6, 14 (2); 2:2 (3), 10 (4), 17 (2), 18 (3); 4:5; 7:5 (2); 9:25 (2); 11:1; 12:3 (2); 13:3 (2), 17; 14:8 (2), 9 (2); 15:11; 17:11 (2), 14 (2), 15, 16, 17, 18; 25:5 (2), 6, 11, 12, 13; 26:12, 13 (2); 27:5 (2); 28:6, 8; 29:33; 30:24 (4); 35:7 (2), 8, 9; Ezra 1:9, 10, 11; 2:3, 6, 7, 12, 14, 31, 35, 37, 38, 39, 64, 65, 67, 69 (2); 8:27; Neh. 3:13; 7:8, 11, 12, 17, 19, 34, 38, 40, 41, 42, 66, 67, 69, 70, 71, 72; Est. 3:9; 9:16; Job 1:3 (2); 9:3; 33:23; 42:12 (4); Ps. 50:10; 60:1; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4; 91:7; 105:8; 119:72; Eccl. 6:6; 7:28; Song 4:4; 8:11, 12; Isa. 7:23 (2); 30:17; 36:8; 37:36; 60:22; Jer. 32:18; 52:28, 30; Ezek. 45:1 (2), 3 (2), 5 (2), 6 (2); 47:3, 4 (2), 5, 48:8, 9 (2), 10 (4), 13 (4), 15 (2), 16 (4), 18 (2), 20 (2), 21 (2), 30, 32, 33, 34, 35; Dan. 8:14; 12:11, 12; Amos 5:3; Mic. 5:2; and 6:7.
Now, of all these verses, only a handful are actually a singular 10, a singular 100, or a singular 1000 (or a singular 10,000) and of those even fewer that could be considered representative of “completion.”
There are 177 matches for “a hundred” or “an hundred” in the KJV. Most of these contain additional numbers, such as “Adam lived an hundred and thirty years.” The few that did not but were EXACTLY 100 are…
Gen. 11:10; 17:17; 21:5; 33:19; Ex. 27:9, 11, 18; 38:9, 11, 25, 27; Lev. 26:8; Deut. 22:19; Josh. 24:32; Judg. 20:10; I Sam. 18:25; 25:18; II Sam. 3:14; 16:1; I Ki. 4:23; 7:2; 18:4, 13; 20:29 (100,000); II Ki. 3:4 (100,000 twice); 4:43; 23:33; I Chron. 5:21 (100,000); 12:14; 18:4; 21:3, 5 (1,100,000); 22:14 (100,000); II Chron. 3:16; 4:8; 25:6 (100,000 men for 100 talents of silver); 27:5; 29:32; 36:3; Ezra 6:17; 7:22 (4 times); 8:26 (2 times); Prov. 17:10; Eccl. 6:3; 8:12; Isa. 65:20 (2 times); Jer. 52:23; Ezek. 40:19, 23, 27, 47 (2 times); 41:13 (2 times), 14, 15; 42:2, 8; and Amos 5:3 (2 times).
Of these, PERHAPS a few may be interpreted as being symbolic at all. For instance,
Lev 26:8
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
KJV
but I want you to know that I am doing the investigation and that it will take a little more time.
That’s step one. Now I realize that I'm only about halfway, but to satisfy you, I will exhaust the study before I am done.
In the Messiah’s love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/27/2009 4:52:39 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, again, kelman.
Regarding the long post that tended to complicate itself, you must admit from your side that you are "name dropping" and using some inflammatory language in your responses.
For instance, instead of saying "I believe that's what Scripture teaches" or "that's what Scripture teaches me," you boldly say, "that's what Scripture teaches." We need to agree and understand that neither one of us has a corner on all there is to know in the Bible. NONE of us KNOWS who's right and who's wrong! That's why there are various opinions.
You shouldn't resort to "name dropping" techniques like when you say, "how God uses a word" or "to learn how God uses 1000 years." These translate to an argument implying that "God told me so!" That's just baloney. Oh, and PLEASE don't be condescending in your attitude. Saying, "I'm sure the Holy Spirit would be interested to know that what He does is not 'real,'" is both condescending and insulting. As a brother in Christ, please remember that how you treat me (or anyone else who is a brother or sister on this forum) is the way you are treating Christ Himself!
Now, I understand that you believe the Scriptures teach that the first resurrection is being spiritually resurrected at salvation and that the spirits of those who have died in Christ are with their Lord in heaven awaiting the second resurrection. Hopefully I am not misstating you on this much.
HOWEVER, what was wrong with Uriah's suggestion of looking up the word "resurrection" in a dictionary??!!! God is not opposed to man's knowledge; in fact, He both encourages it and increases it! One can use BOTH tools! They are not necessarily diametrically opposed to each other, and you can learn a lot by being open to the fact that you don't have all the answers. Yes, try the answers you receive from man to be sure it doesn't contradict God's Word, but don't be afraid to learn new (at least, new to you) truth! The very first definition for the word "resurrection" in the New Webster's Dictionary and Thesaurus of the English Language (copyrighted by Lexicon Publications, Inc. in Danbury, CT, 1992) is...
"...the act of rising again after death || a bringing back into use, memory, etc. the Resurrection (theol.) the rising of Christ from the dead || (theol.) the rising of all the dead at the Last Judgment."
See? I'm not even sure why you'd want to object to that definition! (There are a few things about it I rather object to instead!)
A second source for a definition of "resurrection" can be online at Wiktionary:
Etymology: From Anglo-Norman resurrectiun, from Old French resurrection (French: résurrection), from Late Latin resurrectionem (accusative of resurrectio) from Latin resurgere (“‘to rise again’”), from 're- (“‘again’”), + surgere (“‘to rise’”).
.....
resurrection (plural resurrections)
The act of arising from the dead, id est becoming alive again.
(Christianity) The Resurrection: The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
(Christianity) A self-referential term for Jesus Christ
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: - John 11:25
See the rest of the definition.
One can even get MORE information from Wikipedia's articles on "Resurrection":Check here for more on Resurrection.
Now, we can also and SHOULD also check out the Greek source from which the word "resurrection" is translated. The Greek word translated "resurrection" in the New Testament is "anastasis" which stems from "anisteemi" meaning "to stand up." "Anastasis" is said to mean "a standing up again" (according to Strong's Greek Dictionary). In my opinion, that's hard to do without a body! Any attempt to stand up without a body doesn't have a leg to stand on! 
More later. I have to get ready for Synagogue!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/27/2009 5:41:27 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1957
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: online
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"""In my opinion, that's hard to do without a body! Any attempt to stand up without a body doesn't have a leg to stand on!"""??
Oh, my, AAaaaarrrrrrgggg!!
Nice one liner.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/27/2009 7:25:35 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2278
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
quote:
You say Satan has been cast out and bound so he can no longer deceive nations yet the victory over Satan does not occur until Rev 11:15 at the sounding of the seventh angel;
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Where do you get Satan being bound from the above passage? There's nothing in it to suggest such a conclusion.
There are many passages indicating that Satan was bound at the cross. I've given a number of them in earlier posts. This one from Revelation.
kelman...I never said Satan was bound. You misread Rev 11, this occurs at the middle of the last week when Satan is cast to earth and his time is short...only having 42 months to seek revenge.
It seems you have a vision and you are twisting scripture to fit that vision.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/28/2009 4:15:10 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
First, let’s get this out of the way:
Here’s a search in the KJV for the words “ten,” “hundred,” and “thousand” (which will also catch “ten thousand” or even “ten thousands” in the English language):
Of the 1355 matches, MOST of them (if not all) are bound up in the exact numbers being conveyed in genealogies, such as Gen. 5 and Gen. 11. Exact mentions of 10, 100, and 1000 (let alone 10,000) are hard to find. Many of these occurrences have the words “…and ten” or “two hundred” or “four hundred,” for example, that tell us we are not dealing with JUST 10 or 100 or 1000. They're not hard to find. Jesus used these numbers in His parables and they were also used, on occassion, in the OT to speak figuratively. I've not denied that numbers do not always have spiritual meanings; but, frankly it cannot be denied that in some cases they do.
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Of these, PERHAPS a few may be interpreted as being symbolic at all. For instance,
Lev 26:8
8 And five of you shall chase an hundred, and an hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight: and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.
KJV It is these "few" in both the OT and NT that I'm speaking about..certainly not everytime a number consists of some variation of 100, 1000, etc. Sometimes a number is - just a number.
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but I want you to know that I am doing the investigation and that it will take a little more time.
That’s step one. Now I realize that I'm only about halfway, but to satisfy you, I will exhaust the study before I am done. I appreciate your hard work but the instances where a number is just a number doesn't effect those instances where they do have an obvious spiritual meaning.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/28/2009 4:22:40 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, again, kelman.
Regarding the long post that tended to complicate itself, you must admit from your side that you are "name dropping" and using some inflammatory language in your responses. You guys are really amazing! I'm told I'm going to hell because I don't agree with you and then you've got the chutzpah to tell me I'm inflammatory?
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For instance, instead of saying "I believe that's what Scripture teaches" or "that's what Scripture teaches me," you boldly say, "that's what Scripture teaches." We need to agree and understand that neither one of us has a corner on all there is to know in the Bible. NONE of us KNOWS who's right and who's wrong! That's why there are various opinions. Frankly, you're not one to speak. You are very adamant and offer no apologies and neither do I. I post the way I post as do you. If people don't like, don't read it. But if you think I'm going to let it pass that I'm going to hell, etc., because I don't agree with you guys...think again.
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You shouldn't resort to "name dropping" techniques like when you say, "how God uses a word" or "to learn how God uses 1000 years." These translate to an argument implying that "God told me so!" That's absurd. I'm telling you what Scripture says JUST LIKE you tell me what Scripture says. I'm not about to say: "I think...Scripture this or that".
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Oh, and PLEASE don't be condescending in your attitude. Saying, "I'm sure the Holy Spirit would be interested to know that what He does is not 'real,'" is both condescending and insulting. Neither condescending or insulting. Did you even bother to read the post or were you just hunting and picking? Perhaps I should do the same to your posts?....plenty "condescending and insulting" there!
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As a brother in Christ, please remember that how you treat me (or anyone else who is a brother or sister on this forum) is the way you are treating Christ Himself! That admonition is better addressed to others not me. I didn't tell anyone they were going to hell.
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Now, I understand that you believe the Scriptures teach that the first resurrection is being spiritually resurrected at salvation and that the spirits of those who have died in Christ are with their Lord in heaven awaiting the second resurrection. Hopefully I am not misstating you on this much.
Nope, you're not.
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HOWEVER, what was wrong with Uriah's suggestion of looking up the word "resurrection" in a dictionary??!!! Plenty, because Webster didn't write the Bible - God did. The Bible is its own dictionary and even its own commentary.
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God is not opposed to man's knowledge; in fact, He both encourages it and increases it! One can use BOTH tools! They are not necessarily diametrically opposed to each other, and you can learn a lot by being open to the fact that you don't have all the answers. I don't even have to go hunt and pick...this is condescening and insulting enough right here. Where did I ever claim to have "all the answers"?
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Yes, try the answers you receive from man to be sure it doesn't contradict God's Word, but don't be afraid to learn new (at least, new to you) truth! Just keeps on coming...condescension and insults...implying that I'm afraid to learn new truth.
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The very first definition for the word "resurrection" in the New Webster's Dictionary and Thesaurus of the English Language (copyrighted by Lexicon Publications, Inc. in Danbury, CT, 1992) is... Hey, you can take your definitions from wherever you please, I'll take my from Scripture.
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Now, we can also and SHOULD also check out the Greek source from which the word "resurrection" is translated. The Greek word translated "resurrection" in the New Testament is "anastasis" which stems from "anisteemi" meaning "to stand up." "Anastasis" is said to mean "a standing up again" (according to Strong's Greek Dictionary). In my opinion, that's hard to do without a body! Any attempt to stand up without a body doesn't have a leg to stand on! Cute but not very biblical. You'd best take-up your disagreement with God as to how He uses "rise" in Ephesians, it is the spirit that's been "raised".
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Besides we see "raised" used in a number of other ways in addition to the spiritual.
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
It seems I've intruded in on a "one belief only" thread, one which cannot tolerate another view without declaring the holder of the opposing view is going to hell. Apparently, those opinions are accepted by all since their silence is deafening. It seems to me, though, that those here are unable to adequately support their viewpoint since they wish to make me the topic....smells like a red herring. In any event...
...enjoy your club, your restricted club!
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/28/2009 4:27:30 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5030
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
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You say Satan has been cast out and bound so he can no longer deceive nations yet the victory over Satan does not occur until Rev 11:15 at the sounding of the seventh angel;
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Where do you get Satan being bound from the above passage? There's nothing in it to suggest such a conclusion.
There are many passages indicating that Satan was bound at the cross. I've given a number of them in earlier posts. This one from Revelation.
kelman...I never said Satan was bound. Since we were talking about Satan being bound, I naturally assumed the passage you posted was in connection with that discussion. My apologies.
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You misread Rev 11, this occurs at the middle of the last week when Satan is cast to earth and his time is short...only having 42 months to seek revenge. Oh, I see. Only you guys get to say something definitively. I, otoh, must say: "I think...such and such".
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It seems you have a vision and you are twisting scripture to fit that vision.
Oh, I see...again. You and the rest can be insulting......
Nope, won't play your little games, you guys can keep the rules you set-up for others to follow, always exempting yourselves, of course.
_____________________________
"We do not have a single sentence that is authoritatively from the Lord, outside of what is in the written word of the New Testament. To appeal to a tradition for authority when Holy God did not give it is futile."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/29/2009 8:58:14 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, kelman.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shabbat shalom, again, kelman.
Regarding the long post that tended to complicate itself, you must admit from your side that you are "name dropping" and using some inflammatory language in your responses. You guys are really amazing! I'm told I'm going to hell because I don't agree with you and then you've got the chutzpah to tell me I'm inflammatory?
Hey! My chutzpah is my own! It's not "you against us as a group!" We are all individuals and have our own individual minds, ideas, theologies, and ways of interpreting God's Word. I NEVER said you were "going to hell!" Never would! But, YES, you ARE using some inflammatory language! You've gone into this discussion as though you had a chip on your shoulder! I don't want to battle you, man! I want to work together with you and come to a better understanding of God's truth!
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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For instance, instead of saying "I believe that's what Scripture teaches" or "that's what Scripture teaches me," you boldly say, "that's what Scripture teaches." We need to agree and understand that neither one of us has a corner on all there is to know in the Bible. NONE of us KNOWS who's right and who's wrong! That's why there are various opinions. Frankly, you're not one to speak. You are very adamant and offer no apologies and neither do I. I post the way I post as do you. If people don't like, don't read it. But if you think I'm going to let it pass that I'm going to hell, etc., because I don't agree with you guys...think again.
Again, I never said that nor am I part of a gang against you! Personally, it doesn't affect me that you don't agree with me, but I'd like to know why and I believe that we can still learn from each other and agree to disagree, when it comes down to that. In the meantime, I'd like to see if we can work on a common bridge of understanding!
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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You shouldn't resort to "name dropping" techniques like when you say, "how God uses a word" or "to learn how God uses 1000 years." These translate to an argument implying that "God told me so!" That's absurd. I'm telling you what Scripture says JUST LIKE you tell me what Scripture says. I'm not about to say: "I think...Scripture this or that".
Why not? What we believe the Scriptures say is just that....WHAT WE BELIEVE! It would be nice to say, "God told me this is the truth," but unless you are a bonified prophet of God, I don't think you are qualified to say that! When you say, "That's what God said; take it up with Him," all you're doing is just closing up discussion, like closing up a shop! YOU CAN'T HIDE BEHIND THE PULPIT AND MAKE RASH STATEMENTS! I've heard too many preachers do that down through the years! They think they can say any little thing that comes into their pea-brained heads and hide behind "THUS SAITH THE LORD!" Now, I'm not accusing you of doing that much, but you ARE taking the discussion out of the realm of normal conversation when you do that. All I ask is that you give it some thought.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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Oh, and PLEASE don't be condescending in your attitude. Saying, "I'm sure the Holy Spirit would be interested to know that what He does is not 'real,'" is both condescending and insulting. Neither condescending or insulting. Did you even bother to read the post or were you just hunting and picking? Perhaps I should do the same to your posts?....plenty "condescending and insulting" there!
Look, don't you think I care about what the Holy Spirit of God thinks???!!! (That's rhetorical, by the way; PLEASE do not answer that, especially snidely!) YES, I read your posts! Yes, I care about your opinions! Why would I write if I didn't? All I'm saying here is please give me the same respect! That's all.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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As a brother in Christ, please remember that how you treat me (or anyone else who is a brother or sister on this forum) is the way you are treating Christ Himself! That admonition is better addressed to others not me. I didn't tell anyone they were going to hell.
Again with the "going to hell" bit. I get it that those words hurt you deeply, but I didn't say them! Where did you get them, by the way? Who said that?
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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Now, I understand that you believe the Scriptures teach that the first resurrection is being spiritually resurrected at salvation and that the spirits of those who have died in Christ are with their Lord in heaven awaiting the second resurrection. Hopefully I am not misstating you on this much.
Nope, you're not.
Good, at least we can agree on something! That's a start!
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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HOWEVER, what was wrong with Uriah's suggestion of looking up the word "resurrection" in a dictionary??!!! Plenty, because Webster didn't write the Bible - God did. The Bible is its own dictionary and even its own commentary.
Do you believe in study helps? You do understand the Bible was not written in English, right? Sometimes, English GETS IN THE WAY of our understanding God's Word.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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God is not opposed to man's knowledge; in fact, He both encourages it and increases it! One can use BOTH tools! They are not necessarily diametrically opposed to each other, and you can learn a lot by being open to the fact that you don't have all the answers. I don't even have to go hunt and pick...this is condescening and insulting enough right here. Where did I ever claim to have "all the answers"?
You didn't; I just didn't want the conversation to be steered in that direction. All I'm saying is that we can ENHANCE our understanding if we use study helps. Sorry if that sounded insulting to you.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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Yes, try the answers you receive from man to be sure it doesn't contradict God's Word, but don't be afraid to learn new (at least, new to you) truth! Just keeps on coming...condescension and insults...implying that I'm afraid to learn new truth.
No, I just want you to keep an open mind to things like dictionaries, encyclopedias, lexicons, thesauruses, Greek dictionaries, Hebrew dictionaries, Greek grammar books, Hebrew grammar books, and the like. I'm sorry again for insulting you; it's just that YOU implied that you would not be open to outside sources of information, first!
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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The very first definition for the word "resurrection" in the New Webster's Dictionary and Thesaurus of the English Language (copyrighted by Lexicon Publications, Inc. in Danbury, CT, 1992) is... Hey, you can take your definitions from wherever you please, I'll take my from Scripture.
And, where exactly in Scripture is the definition of resurrection to be found? Book, chapter and verse, if you have one.
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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Now, we can also and SHOULD also check out the Greek source from which the word "resurrection" is translated. The Greek word translated "resurrection" in the New Testament is "anastasis" which stems from "anisteemi" meaning "to stand up." "Anastasis" is said to mean "a standing up again" (according to Strong's Greek Dictionary). In my opinion, that's hard to do without a body! Any attempt to stand up without a body doesn't have a leg to stand on! Cute but not very biblical. You'd best take-up your disagreement with God as to how He uses "rise" in Ephesians, it is the spirit that's been "raised".
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Besides we see "raised" used in a number of other ways in addition to the spiritual.
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
It seems I've intruded in on a "one belief only" thread, one which cannot tolerate another view without declaring the holder of the opposing view is going to hell. Apparently, those opinions are accepted by all since their silence is deafening. It seems to me, though, that those here are unable to adequately support their viewpoint since they wish to make me the topic....smells like a red herring. In any event...
...enjoy your club, your restricted club!
"Raised" perhaps, but "raised to life," no. That's not the way to determine what "resurrection" means.
Stay and challenge, enjoying the fellowship, or leave in a huff. I, for one, would rather that you stay. However, the choice is ultimately yours, but don't think we're "ganging up on you." That's just NOT happening.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 6/29/2009 11:59:27 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 771
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom to all.
I started this stream with the intent of making a case for a more local interpretation of the destruction of the "heaven and earth" since I've learned to define "heaven" as the "sky" or the "atmosphere" around our planet. Often, certain theologians and preachers will flamboyantly say that the whole UNIVERSE will be destroyed, but I believe that such a stance is not supported by the Scriptures.
Remember: the Greek word "ouranos" means "sky" because that's how Yeshua` (Jesus) used it in Matthew 16:1-4.
Matt 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (ouranos).
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky (ouranos) is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (ouranos) is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (ouranos); but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV
Thus, when Paul said he knew of a man who was "caught up" (harpazo) to the third heaven (ouranos), he was NOT speaking of a third sky spatially, as a vertically third place; he was talking about a third atmosphere chronologically as described by Peter in the third chapter of his second letter, a sequentially third sky.
2 Cor 12:1-4
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven (ouranos).
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV
2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens (ouranoi) were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens (ouranoi) and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens (ouranoi) and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
KJV
Thus, by Peter's description, the first heaven (or atmosphere) was the atmosphere around the earth before the Flood of Noach's day.
The second heaven (or atmosphere) is the atmosphere around the current earth after the Flood and before the Fire, and
The third heaven (also Paul's third heaven) (or atmosphere) is the atmosphere that will surround the future earth that will exist after the Fire.
Now, granted, the word in 2 Peter is "ouranoi," the plural of "ouranos," but we do the same thing in English. We will sometimes say "sky" and sometimes "skies," using them interchangeably. The point is that with this understanding of Paul's "third heaven," I don't need men like C. I. Scofield to tell me otherwise. I believe Peter's explanation for the "third heaven" does just fine! Thus, I reject the notion that "the first heaven is of clouds, the second heaven is of stars, and the third heaven is God's abode." I no longer find support for that belief in Scripture.
So when Peter tells us in the passage quoted above that the "heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up," that "all these things shall be dissolved," and that "the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat," I believe that those are statements about our planet, not about the solar system, nor our galaxy, and especially not the whole Universe!
Even when John tells us in Revelation that "the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon," he's not saying that there will be no more sun or moon, nor is he saying that the whole earth had no need for the sun or the moon! He is simply saying that the CITY has no need for them, not that everyone has no need for them!
Rev 21:23
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
KJV
To the contrary, we have promises that the earth, the moon, and the sun shall abide forever!
Ps 104:1-5
1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV
Ps 89:36-37
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV
Ps 119:89-90
89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.
90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.
KJV
Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV
Isaiah 24 is so often used to prove the total destruction of the earth that one may miss certain points about the passage:
First, contextual clues suggest that the "earth" here is actually talking about the "land," specifically, THE "Land" of Isra'el. Consider the highlighted areas:
Isa 24
24 Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the Lord hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
7 The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
8 The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.
13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.
14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the Lord, they shall cry aloud from the sea.
15 Wherefore glorify ye the Lord in the fires, even the name of the Lord God of Israel in the isles of the sea.
16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, even glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.
17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
KJV
So, when the passage goes on to say "the earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard," these phrases should be interpreted as locally fulfilled, not globally fulfilled. Thus, we may be reading about an earthquake that occurred sometime in the past or one that WILL occur in the future, but it is not a shaking of the entire planet, as I've heard some declare.
However, at the end of the chapter we are given a glimpse of hope. Verses 21 through 23 speak of the future and show a restitution provided by God and a rather interesting prophecy: "Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously."
What's interesting to me is that the words "confounded" and "ashamed", which were translated with too much of an anthropomorphic twist, can also be rendered as "confused" or "mixed up" and "outdone," respectively. Thus, the sentence could read, "Then the moon shall be mixed up, and the sun outdone, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously." Picture it! "Gloriously" can also mean "brightly!" When the Lord of hosts reigns brightly in mount Zion, in Jerusalem, before His ancients, He will confuse and mix up the phases of the moon! He will outdo the sun! It's a WONDERFUL image!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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