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Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 1:45:01 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, everyone.
Recently in the discussion on the horses, there was a secondary debate starting as to whether the "new heavens and the new earth" are talking about a new universe.
yzf-r1 said,
quote:
Revelation 21 clearly says "NEW heaven and NEW earth" at the conclusion of Christ's 1,000 year reign. The same phrase used in Genesis 1 : God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Peter 3 says "The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare".
I don't put whimsical finite human limits on the infinite, eternal God, that's incredibly foolish. "Heavens" means the universe, the cosmos. Destroying the universe and creating anew is no problem for the Almighty. All traces of the old, sin cursed system will be eliminated. In fact, seeing God recreate the heavens will once again put God's infinite power on display for all the saints to see for the first time, and the angels to witness once again. There will be praise from all, especially those who never doubted God at His Word.
See, we are getting into that territory again where the English language is NOT ENOUGH! No English translation of the Bible is going to suffice because no English translation is inspired of God. Only the original manuscripts in the original languages were inspired by God.
Frankly, the English word "Heavens" may refer to "the universe, the cosmos," but the GREEK word "ouranos" DOES NOT! While the fallible, non-inspired translations of the Bible may use the English word "heavens," the GREEK word which would have been in the original, infallible, inspired manuscript (if such manuscript was indeed written in Greek) would have been the Greek word "ouranos."
Now, one could look at it as putting" whimsical finite human limits on the infinite, eternal God," and "incredible foolishness," OR one could see it as "not reading into the Scriptures more than one should and growing them into a fantasy that far exceeds the original intent of the message, which in essence would be to LIE about what God will do" and "humble wisdom."
While it is true that "destroying the universe and creating anew is no problem for the Almighty," it is also true that He can break the stranglehold of the Philistines on the neck of Isra'el through the courage of a simple shepherd boy with a well-aimed "small, smooth stone" sunk into the skull of one ruthless giant!
It DOES draw an appealing image in one's mind, but while "seeing God recreate the heavens will once again put God's infinite power on display for all the saints to see for the first time, and the angels to witness once again," seeing Him recreate just this planet and its atmosphere will demonstrate God's infinite power just as well and put it in a scope that we can appreciate.
I'm not "doubting God's Word"; I'm doubting whether we have correctly understood it! We human beings often have a GREAT imagination and that can be a powerful tool, but imaginations without the restraints of reality decay into fantasy and fanciful fictions. Although fantasy/science fiction is fun to read and watch in a movie, it's of little value if not grounded in reality and restrained by continuity.
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 2:03:27 PM
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bob97
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Hi Roy...
Well we do know that all creations groans and I think we have every evidence to believe that this is caused by entropy...where all matter is changing from a state usefulness to heat energy. Everything we are aware of as humans is in this state of changing so I think we would have to assume the universe has the same problem.
Romans 8:21-22 ( KJV ) 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
So the only way I know for this stability to occur is for all matter to be glorified and receive new life.
I have no ideal how this occurs but we know we will be changed in the blinking of an eye so I bet well never even be aware of when it happens.
The same with the earth and the atmosphere. 
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 2:08:36 PM
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drmark
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Seems pretty clear to me in 2 Peter 3:12 - "as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat."
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 2:22:44 PM
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bob97
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drmark…I think other scripture pertaining to the Day of the Lord would indicate that terrible things will occur on the earth at both the beginning and during but some life continues, so I cannot see a complete destruction of the earth. The same with the very end and progression into the millennium; human life goes into the millennium (people without glorified bodies) so once again I see no complete destruction at that time.
What occurs after the millennium I can really talk about. But what you are connecting to the Day of the Lord does not support complete destruction of the earth or atmosphere.
2 Peter 3:10 ( KJV ) 10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Revelation 6:12-17 ( KJV ) 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Matthew 24:29-30 ( KJV ) 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 2:55:05 PM
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drmark
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quote:
But what you are connecting to the Day of the Lord does not support complete destruction of the earth or atmosphere. Well, I just read what the text states: "pass away with a great noise", "melt with fervent heat", and "shall be burned up". Sounds like complete destruction to me, Bob. You're free to have your interpretation.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 3:22:29 PM
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bob97
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drmark...I'm just reading the rest of our future that God wrote.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 3:25:59 PM
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yohannan
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This verse is concurrent Testimony with the last verse of Daniel which does not speak to us there of The Millennium Reign, but does show us The Great White Throne Seat of The Most High. The High Court was Seated and those who are given thrones to Judge and The Most High was before the river of fire which is that those who are not found written in The Lambs Book of Life are judged by what was written and also there is another collection of books as written.
This verse is speaking of the last fire from heaven that devours those who deceived into taking up another war when The Dragon is released from bondage in the pit for one thousand years as written, for he deceives the nations with powerful delusions and signs and wonders to gather the kings from the east once to do war on those who are at Jerusalem and who were Reigning with Christ for one thousand years.
Those who are eligible to be included in the one thousand year Reign are those are Martyred for Testimony and those who do not take the mark of the number of the name of the false prophet who come to deceive the nations into handing all believers over to the authorities and unto death. These are the true of the faith that are the of the seed of Eve who is The Woman fulfillment carried forward in Prophecy as the seed of Abraham and fulfilled in Jesus Christ conquering the Devil at Golgatha.
Further, those who have partaken in war affairs before in remaining as the centurions, etc, under nation banner fliers in days gone by can be eligible for greater love has no than this that they men may dare to lay down their lives for a good man is written.
These will endure in about 4 years a major worldwide warfare concerning the false faith of those who seek that man who is called the false messiah who will have a covenant of restricted commerce as his worship along with 10 horns who are leaders who will arise to conquer the whole world from among all nations to subdue those who are the true judea into denying themselves by taking up the cross of warfare struggles with a greater evil. Those who take the mark of the beast from the earth, for peoples were formed on the sixth day from the earth is genesis Prophecy (thus the sixth is the number of man and beasts who were created prior in the epoch), will endure the punishments poured out from heaven upon them written for us as trumpets (feast of the trumpets) and bowl judgments. This man's name is of judean and possibly europeous descent. For the river at Prophecy is called Euphrates which signifies European influences as we have seen across histories since HRE.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But what you are connecting to the Day of the Lord does not support complete destruction of the earth or atmosphere. Well, I just read what the text states: "pass away with a great noise", "melt with fervent heat", and "shall be burned up". Sounds like complete destruction to me, Bob. You're free to have your interpretation.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 3:40:40 PM
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drmark
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quote:
drmark...I'm just reading the rest of our future that God wrote. Sorry, folks, I just remembered why I don't post on this forum! Pardon my intrusion and carry on.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 3:58:52 PM
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AMLee
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Maybe I am misinterpreting the Bible here But in the Old Testament after the flood, didn't God say that He would never destroy the world (planet, earth) ever again?? Thought that might tie into the theory somewhere. I feel pretty certain that heaven will be here...on this earth, after he has destroyed all of the wicked things and made earth "new" again...like making the earth into the Garden of Eden again like it began. But what do I knw...I am just an earthly creature. Quiet frankly, I don't care what happens to this earth....just as long as I am in Heaven with God.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 4:11:14 PM
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yohannan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
Maybe I am misinterpreting the Bible here But in the Old Testament after the flood, didn't God say that He would never destroy the world (planet, earth) ever again?? Thought that might tie into the theory somewhere. I feel pretty certain that heaven will be here...on this earth, after he has destroyed all of the wicked things and made earth "new" again...like making the earth into the Garden of Eden again like it began. But what do I knw...I am just an earthly creature. Quiet frankly, I don't care what happens to this earth....just as long as I am in Heaven with God.
The end of the war, spiritual battles in the heavenly realms, will be like a flood until the culmination of the last 7 years is written.
The Prophets say 'therefore you will have war, plagues, and famines.' This is the completion of the flood verses which is written as seals 1-4 as horses and riders. The Song of Moses is horses and riders were thrown into the sea. This is the Prophecy of earth until the fulfillment of the fifth seal written in Revelation which is culminated in the last 7 years with about 44 1/2 months of great tribulation war on the believers in Gd worldwide at the hands of 10 worldwide leaders who confirm the restricted commerce of the mark of the number of the name of the false prophet beast from the earth who gives honor to the former 10 leaders who are the culmination of the time period of the preMillennial rulerships who begin to blaspheme God for they are eventually to be given a mouth that utters the mouthpiece of speaking against God. This is the tower of Babel that peoples were gathered togther to resist the commandment of God and then they were scattered upon the earth and divisions were placed by God's servants over languages and national flag fliers and race and locations of Empires, and tribes and peoples.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 4:17:32 PM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
Maybe I am misinterpreting the Bible here But in the Old Testament after the flood, didn't God say that He would never destroy the world (planet, earth) ever again??
He said He wouldn't destroy the earth by a flood again. He didn't say anything about fire.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 4:44:47 PM
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WesP
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quote:
Jesus Christ conquering the Devil at Golgatha
Explain, please.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 5:04:50 PM
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supernova1976
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AMLee
Maybe I am misinterpreting the Bible here But in the Old Testament after the flood, didn't God say that He would never destroy the world (planet, earth) ever again?? Thought that might tie into the theory somewhere. I feel pretty certain that heaven will be here...on this earth, after he has destroyed all of the wicked things and made earth "new" again...like making the earth into the Garden of Eden again like it began. But what do I knw...I am just an earthly creature. Quiet frankly, I don't care what happens to this earth....just as long as I am in Heaven with God.
Amen.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 6:42:53 PM
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yzf-r1
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Genesis 8
...never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done
Genesis 9
Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life.
Careful reading of the text: never again will God destroy life on earth by bringing a Flood, but all life (remaining) after the 1,000 year reign of Christ will be destroyed by fire.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 6:44:42 PM
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yzf-r1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Sorry, folks, I just remembered why I don't post on this forum! Pardon my intrusion and carry on.
LOL. Yeah, it gets a little loopy in here sometimes. Reminds me of the commerical for 100k jobs where anyone and everyone jumps on the tennis court and starts knocking balls around at random.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 7:19:31 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, drmark.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But what you are connecting to the Day of the Lord does not support complete destruction of the earth or atmosphere. Well, I just read what the text states: "pass away with a great noise", "melt with fervent heat", and "shall be burned up". Sounds like complete destruction to me, Bob. You're free to have your interpretation.
If you're still reading, please understand the following about the phrases you've quoted from II Peter 3:10:
"Shall pass away with a great noise" is the Greek phrase "hroizeedon pareleusontai" which means "with-a-crash shall-go-by."
"Melt with fervent heat" is the Greek phrase "kausoumena lutheesetai" which means "being-set-on-fire shall-loosen," and
"Shall be burned up" is the Greek word "katakakeesetai" which means "to-burn-down (to the ground)" or "to-consume-completely."
For "the heavens" (Greek: hoi ouranoi) to pass away with a great noise or to go away with a crash, that can only happen if the "heavens" are indeed the skies or the atmosphere. There's no sound in space (despite all the special effects of science fiction movies) because space is a vacuum! How could one hear a crash in the vacuum of space?
For "the elements" (Greek: stoicheia = the "orderly parts" or "atoms/molecules") to loosen by heat, we are talking about the fourth state of matter called plasma in which the heat is so great that the electrons are excited beyond their orbitals and are actually lost to their surroundings. This state of matter is like a gas but is magnetic and is affected by magnetism.
Note that not everything is "burned down to the ground" or "consumed completely"; it's just the EARTH and the WORKS IN IT that are consumed completely! And, once again, the "earth" (Greek: gee) is the GROUND which MAY refer to the soil, the field, the Land of Isra'el, or the whole surface of the earth.
I believe that this is a global destruction by Fire as Noach's Flood was a global destruction by Water; however, it is not a SOLAR SYSTEMIC destruction or a GALACTIC destruction and it certainly is not a UNIVERSAL destruction! On the other hand, even as a global destruction, I believe this only applies to the biosphere and not to the entire planet. Furthermore, as Bob pointed out, there are enough clues in Scripture to suggest that it is not an entirely global destruction.
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 8:12:38 PM
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yzf-r1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
How could one hear a crash in the vacuum of space?
This presumes you could understand (now) what exactly would happen if the entire universe were destroyed, from the standpoint of a dimension outside space-time.
I look at this way: God created the cosmos in one day (yes, I read Genesis literally). "He made the stars ALSO". We're talking about a Power that is completely beyond any human comprehension.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 8:56:17 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Hi Roy...
Well we do know that all creations groans and I think we have every evidence to believe that this is caused by entropy...where all matter is changing from a state usefulness to heat energy. Everything we are aware of as humans is in this state of changing so I think we would have to assume the universe has the same problem.
Romans 8:21-22 ( KJV ) 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
So the only way I know for this stability to occur is for all matter to be glorified and receive new life.
I have no ideal how this occurs but we know we will be changed in the blinking of an eye so I bet well never even be aware of when it happens.
The same with the earth and the atmosphere.
Bob
That is a point for a more universal change; however, when talking about the universe, it is--after all--an ASSUMPTION that entropy affects all we see among the stars. No one's been there, and much of what we hypothesize is at best a series of guesses, like a shaky house of cards. Even the relative speed of stars is based on the Dopplar Effect interpolated for light. We truly don't KNOW that the Dopplar Effect that we KNOW works for sound waves also can be applied to light waves. We already have deduced that light's velocity is a constant that is unaffected by the speed of the observer. (This twist on the speed of light as opposed to the sub-light speeds of objects of matter was what Albert Einstein formulated into his General Theory of Relativity.) But, even the speed of light was determined by a questionable experiment. See, waves on water travel at different speeds than the water itself may be moving. Sound waves in air move at different speeds than does the air itself. That's why we can still hear voices of people through the wind. The very experiment that was supposed to measure the speed of light ASSUMED that it would detect the presence of an "ether" medium! So, did the experiment measure the speed of the wave or the speed of some medium instead?
Now, I would agree on a global scale, but not necessarily on the universal scale. For instance, the moon MAY need a "facelift" because of the pock-marks of meteorites that strike its surface through its very thin atmosphere, but its orbit is nearly perfectly elliptical! It has had such a perfect orbit that for thousands of years it's orbit has yet to decay! It's orbit is even used to describe eternity in Psalm 72:
Ps 72:5-7
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
KJV
If God needs to give the universe's objects a "push" from time to time to keep things humming along, He certainly could do so, but if God needs to remove the curse from the whole universe, He could do that FAR into the future without significant consequence to us.
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 9:37:44 PM
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bob97
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Roy we have a pretty good ideal about our sun and that is in time it will turn into a white dwarf; White dwarfs are thought to be the final evolutionary state of all stars whose mass is not too high—over 97% of the stars in our Galaxy. The stars with larger mass will turn into black holes or neutron stars. We have pretty sufficient evidence of this.
I would say that, yes the universe is going from a state of useful to non useful...just like our bodies.
But you're right, I've not been there and I'm not a expert...only God knows for sure.
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/18/2009 11:17:36 PM
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yzf-r1
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Romans 8 (NAS)
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
The whole creation is EVERYTHING in the physical dimension.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/19/2009 3:38:12 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But what you are connecting to the Day of the Lord does not support complete destruction of the earth or atmosphere. Well, I just read what the text states: "pass away with a great noise", "melt with fervent heat", and "shall be burned up". Sounds like complete destruction to me, Bob. You're free to have your interpretation.
Seems the text does indeed sound like complete destruction. Not only 2Peter but a number of other passages also, for one, Mat 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away." and, although, I suppose Mat 24:29 is open for a metaphoric interpretation, it also appears to indicate a complete destruction "the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:".
Rom 8:19-21 declares the creation itself will be delivered from bondage. Just as the bodies of believers are destroyed yet will be "recreated" anew, so too, this world. According to 1Cor 15, believer's bodies are sown in corruption and dishonor and those believers will be changed in a "twinkling of an eye".
This earth is also "recreated" to become suitable for the "new" creatures inhabiting it, not to mention suitable for the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. In the same way, it had to become "suitable" for Adam after the Fall by subjecting it to "vanity"....actually God cursed it right along with Adam and Satan.
Also, Rev 21:1 seems quite clear: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.”
In addition we have the OT passages which support a complete destruction, i.e., Isa 65:17 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." and Isa 65:22 ‘"For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.”
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/20/2009 8:21:33 PM
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Uriah
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There will be the "heavens on fire"- a Greek word that means to "glow". This is the cloud from the asteroid that will surround the world and build charges seen in an auroral display.
At the end they will discharge in a plasma wave that will roll around the planet. As it passes by this "fire of God" will make a tremendous noise that will build to a deafening level as it approaches then dissipates in the other direction. Thus the "roaring sound" claimed (other translations) in Peter. Because such a plasma wave/discharge will naturally produce Birkeland currents, it will have a "rolling" appearance as it moves by. "...like a scroll..."
The "elements" melting in fervent heat refers to magma upwelling from steam pressures beneath through fissures. Don't believe the "Terminator gospel"! Peter and his peers would not have understood the periodic table regarding plutonium. BTW who is it really that said "I'll be back" on "Judgment Day"?
The final destination of the plasma wave will be the armies at Armageddon. The description of their destruction is depicted as having their eyes consume in their sockets and their tongues dissolve before their bodies hit the ground. The charge would naturally attracted to these moist parts of the body! (Aech.)
Then the rest of the heaviest part of the cloud in space will re-enter the atmosphere and fill the valley to the horse's bridle. (Ezek. 38-39) This is iron oxide (rust) from the asteroid mixed in the ocean water that was lifted up into space along with rocks and giant hail formed on the way up.
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/20/2009 11:46:06 PM
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yzf-r1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
The "elements" melting in fervent heat refers to magma upwelling from steam pressures beneath through fissures.
LOL
wow....just wow...it's a whole new level of making the text fit whatever crazy idea you come up with in 2009
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RE: Will the UNIVERSE be destroyed? - 5/21/2009 1:30:53 AM
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kelman
Posts: 5090
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Uriah
There will be the "heavens on fire"- a Greek word that means to "glow". This is the cloud from the asteroid that will surround the world and build charges seen in an auroral display. Since God "spoke" and brought everything into existence, it's unlikely He needs an asteroid to destroy it.
quote:
At the end they will discharge in a plasma wave that will roll around the planet. As it passes by this "fire of God" will make a tremendous noise that will build to a deafening level as it approaches then dissipates in the other direction. Thus the "roaring sound" claimed (other translations) in Peter. Because such a plasma wave/discharge will naturally produce Birkeland currents, it will have a "rolling" appearance as it moves by. "...like a scroll..."
The "elements" melting in fervent heat refers to magma upwelling from steam pressures beneath through fissures. Don't believe the "Terminator gospel"! Peter and his peers would not have understood the periodic table regarding plutonium. BTW who is it really that said "I'll be back" on "Judgment Day"?
The final destination of the plasma wave will be the armies at Armageddon. The description of their destruction is depicted as having their eyes consume in their sockets and their tongues dissolve before their bodies hit the ground. The charge would naturally attracted to these moist parts of the body! (Aech.) Hmm, looks like too much Hollywood and not enough Bible.
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beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow
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