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Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 3:27:29 AM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10810
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
quote:
Wow .... a theologian who advocates a fad-like starvation diet as a way to bolster christian marriages?
If you had bothered to read the next six words of my post, you would have seen that I was countering the assumption that a person "just CAN'T lose weight." Hogwash. I don't care if your weight has been the same for 30 years. Fast for a week, and you will lose weight, no matter what your diet or metabolism is. Based on this information, it is absolutely ridiculous to say that a person "can't" lose weight, just like its ridiculous to say that a child of normal intelligence just "can't" do well in school. The contraction you're searching for is "won't." There are healthy ways to lose weight no matter what's going on with your life (no need to resort to extremes like bread and water, nor should you), and if you don't, its because you won't, not because you can't.
There are people who can not fast for medicinal purposes. Also, starving oneself will not always lead to weight loss.
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We don't nitpick because the only thing that gets thinner on them is their hairline.
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I would have hoped that by this point in human history, the difference between genetically linked appearance problems and those which are related to lifestyle choices would be clear to everyone. My younger brother goes to the gym 10 hours a week and runs 4 miles a day, and has less than 8% body fat, yet his hair is thinning. That's because he's genetically predisposed to male-pattern baldness. Picking on someone's thinning hair is like making fun of someone with Downs Syndrome or psoriasis. Yeah, it's unattractive, and it should make people who are balding more thankful for the women in their lives who overlook it, but there is literally nothing they can do to stop it, and even expending thousands of dollars on treatments does almost nothing. Not so with weight, which can both be eliminated with behavior modification and surgery, neither of which is true with hair loss, unless you count plugs, which look awful.
Weight can also largely be determined by heredity, medications, physical abilities, mental health, mental abilities, knowledge about diet and exercise, etc.
Are you aware that there are several major health risks that go along with the surgeries you are suggesting?
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 3:40:52 AM
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PinkCarnations
Posts: 10810
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Harvie
quote:
ORIGINAL: PinkCarnations
Are you aware that there are several major health risks that go along with the surgeries you are suggesting?
PinkCarnations, I don't think Mr. Theologian cares about the life-threatening health risks that come from starvation fad diets or bariatric surgeries ... he clearly has some sort of agenda here that's allegedly supposed to strengthen all christian marriages. Maybe he's written a book or something?
Well, if the wife dies on the operating table or dies from the poor dieting, at least she won't have to worrying about her husband leaving her for another woman. 
_____________________________
Thank you Veterans.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 8:50:03 AM
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Ross.Lang
Posts: 463
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quote:
starving oneself will not always lead to weight loss.
Conservation of Energy
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Weight can also largely be determined by heredity, medications, physical abilities, mental health, mental abilities, knowledge about diet and exercise, etc.
Right, but it's not a binary condition like thinning hair. If you have the genes for hair loss, only God can stop you from losing your hair. This is absolutely not true with weight, which can be countered by diet, surgery, and exercise. While these methods are not always 100% effective, you will see a huge difference, which you will not see with hair loss.
quote:
I don't think Mr. Theologian cares about the life-threatening health risks that come from starvation fad diets or bariatric surgeries ... he clearly has some sort of agenda here that's allegedly supposed to strengthen all christian marriages.
If you search the pages of this thread, you'll see that all I was asking was why physical appearance is often given a lower position than a person's personality or habits, when in reality it is also an integral part of the person. When I mentioned my occupation in the OP, it was to illustrate that I have high expectations for my partner's literacy because of what I do for a living, just as anyone who devotes themselves to a single vocation may experience that vocation altering their interest in other people. I was suggesting that for some people, their spouses weight could be a similar expectation. Other than that, it was a throw-away point, sort of like you identifying yourself as "fat and feisty." I am not trying to suggest something that would strengthen Christian marriages. I am not writing a book about weight. I am not pushing an agenda. Despite your snide use of "theologian," the fact that I first, and continually, have only been asking for opinions in an effort to figure this link out, does not suggest that I'm trying to do anything except get people who seem terrified to think that their weight can be controlled (you certainly seem to fall in that category) to think about whether or not that position is valid. I am not advocating either starvation or surgery as a way to lose weight at all, I'm just saying that because of the law of conservation of energy, starvation absolutely will work 100% of the time. This is not to say that women should ever starve themselves, but rather to show the foolishness of posters like PinkCarnations, who seem to think that weight is an unalterable factor like height or liver size. To recap: Don't starve, don't fast, don't eat bread and water, don't get surgery. None of those things are necessarily healthy. However, if you feel that losing any weight is impossible, doing any of those things will prove to you in a very short period of time that it's not.
Either way, if you read the posts I've made, you'll see that the above has been my position all along. If you're happy with your weight, that's totally your deal, you and your husband sound very happy, so there's no reason to change.
-Ross
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 9:01:47 AM
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Qtman
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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Ross.Lang we now know what shape your brother is in. How about you. Are you over-weight?
I have seen far to many times a double standard on this issue. Men expect their wives to maintain their girlish figure but seems like they never look in a mirror themselves.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 9:12:23 AM
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Ross.Lang
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I'm in decent shape. I've never been characterized by anyone as fat, but I'm not what you would call "strong" either (I'm 6'3" and 190 pounds). I think that's the main issue- I only do cardiovascular exercise, so I don't really have any upper body strength beyond what you would accumulate doing yard work. Either way, this post was supposed to be more philosophical. I don't intend anyone to maintain anything (sorry if it came across that way) but rather just to think about whether or not appearance is as disposable an attribute of themselves as we typically say it is.
-Ross
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 10:52:21 AM
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myka
Posts: 978
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What would the 'recommended' caloric intake be to you, Ross.Lang?
There is a certain amount of physical weight that is genetically determined. As I'm sure that you are aware, people bring their own pre-conceived notions into any area.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 11:40:54 AM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2082
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
quote:
Wow .... a theologian who advocates a fad-like starvation diet as a way to bolster christian marriages?
If you had bothered to read the next six words of my post, you would have seen that I was countering the assumption that a person "just CAN'T lose weight." Hogwash. I don't care if your weight has been the same for 30 years. Fast for a week, and you will lose weight, no matter what your diet or metabolism is. Based on this information, it is absolutely ridiculous to say that a person "can't" lose weight, just like its ridiculous to say that a child of normal intelligence just "can't" do well in school. The contraction you're searching for is "won't." There are healthy ways to lose weight no matter what's going on with your life (no need to resort to extremes like bread and water, nor should you), and if you don't, its because you won't, not because you can't.
quote:
We don't nitpick because the only thing that gets thinner on them is their hairline.
I would have hoped that by this point in human history, the difference between genetically linked appearance problems and those which are related to lifestyle choices would be clear to everyone. My younger brother goes to the gym 10 hours a week and runs 4 miles a day, and has less than 8% body fat, yet his hair is thinning. That's because he's genetically predisposed to male-pattern baldness. Picking on someone's thinning hair is like making fun of someone with Downs Syndrome or psoriasis. Yeah, it's unattractive, and it should make people who are balding more thankful for the women in their lives who overlook it, but there is literally nothing they can do to stop it, and even expending thousands of dollars on treatments does almost nothing. Not so with weight, which can both be eliminated with behavior modification and surgery, neither of which is true with hair loss, unless you count plugs, which look awful.
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The op wasn't worried about the health factor of weight.
Because that's what everyone is always concerned with, and although its important, its much easier to understand than the bizarre divorce between "who someone is" and "how someone looks" as though the latter were not obviously a strong subset of the former.
-Ross
Some people really cannot lose weight, but yet they are healthier than most skinny people. I'm not here to give anyone a biology lesson, but maybe you should look into it so that you can know (if you want to know). I also think perhaps you need to think about the genetic side of weight, just like you think about the genetic side of baldness. 
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 12:01:01 PM
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benelchi
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
I think it's interesting that the health issue keeps coming up again... and again... and again...
What I'm talking about is exactly the way this issue has been treated in this thread: "It's a health issue or a non issue! The spouse's happiness comes first." Really? If your spouse came home with a facial tattoo and six lip rings, because they "felt like it" would you be ok with that? If your wife or husband came home and had shaved their head completely bare without consulting you, would you be ok with that? What if it reaaaally made them happy? Why then is it so crazy to say to someone who is 35 or under, and has begun to participate in eating and leisure habits resulting in rapid weight gain, "I know you won't have health problems yet, since you've only been heavy ten months, but you really look bad and there's no excuse for it. Hit the gym!"? Again, consider my initial examples- why can a woman complain about emotional withdraw, income level, time with the kids, etc. etc., but a man can't complain about a woman's weight unless her health is at stake? Why is "you're boring and make no effort to enrich your life with interesting pursuits" not a sufficient reason to spend little time with your wife or make a minimal conversational investment in her, but "I don't feel like it" or "I feel healthy" is a legitimate reason for a woman to put on 40 pounds? Why are we Christians in bondage to this bizarre Platonism where we don't consider outward appearance to be a legitimate attribute for scrutiny and analysis?
-Ross
Another post said this earlier, and I think it needs repeating.
quote:
I think that the root of such an attitude is selfishness. The person is more concerned with what they want/need from their spouse in the bedroom than with what their spouse wants/needs. JMHO.
There is nothing wrong with discussing issues about weight with a spouse and even telling them what you find attractive, but when the focus of the discussion is all about what you want and not about what is best for your wife something is very wrong. Looking like a fit twenty year old is not the most healthy thing for most older women. It can require a woman to sacrifice her health, her time, and her enjoyment of life. Asking a wife to make these kinds of sacrifices simply because it pleases you is a reflection of nothing other than pure selfishness.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 12:07:20 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Another post said this earlier, and I think it needs repeating.
quote:
I think that the root of such an attitude is selfishness. The person is more concerned with what they want/need from their spouse in the bedroom than with what their spouse wants/needs. JMHO.
There is nothing wrong with discussing issues about weight with a spouse and even telling them what you find attractive, but when the focus of the discussion is all about what you want and not about what is best for your wife something is very wrong. Looking like a fit twenty year old is not the most healthy thing for most older women. It can require a woman to sacrifice her health, her time, and her enjoyment of life. Asking a wife to make these kinds of sacrifices simply because it pleases you is a reflection of nothing other than pure selfishness.
Yes. That's the true fatal flaw in the OP question.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 12:31:05 PM
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stampinlady
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Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Northern IL
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quote:
Yes. That's the true fatal flaw in the OP question.
What fatal flaw? I guess I don't see where Ross is wrong. Maybe his presentation is wrong, but weight, especially in the christian community is almost taboo. Is he really wanting woman to starve themselves? Is he really asking woman to look go back and look like they just turned 20? I don't think so and if you do, please go back and show me where he said this.
I've been to a few churches in my life and have seen many woman let themselves go after they get married, husbands too. Why is that?
_____________________________
Deb
"When the fufillment comes the types and shadows cease."
Author unknown
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 12:55:03 PM
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Ross.Lang
Posts: 463
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quote:
Some people really cannot lose weight
Yes, there is a genetic component to weight, but the continued failure of people to understand what I'm trying to say here is really inexcusable. Let me spell this out in as simple and non technical terms as I can.
1. All living organisms must consume energy to continue to maintain their biological organization and internal regulation.
2. For humans, the bulk of that energy normally comes from consuming and digesting food, which is then turned into the energy.
3. In the event that the body is denied food for an extended period of time, the body is capable of relying predominantly on energy in long term storage as fat.
4. If the denial of food continues long enough, fat will be consumed. Any measurable consumption of fat means that weight has been lost. Ergo, there is no person for whom weight loss is impossible, as you claim above. If the measures are too extreme, or too dangerous, then they may not wish to try, for which nobody can blame them! However, unwillingness to fast or undergo surgery is still a question of will, not ability, which although noble and in the right place, is a self-imposed barrier. For some people, it may be so difficult that it feels impossible, but this is very different from something actually being impossible.
quote:
Asking a wife to make these kinds of sacrifices simply because it pleases you is a reflection of nothing other than pure selfishness.
I think we can conclude this discussion now. Sorry to bother you, and for not specifically starting with the premise that everyone must be elderly and in a position where weight loss is difficult or impossible. I was just trying to see why it was that physical appearance was considered to be superficial rather than integral to a person, but instead I got just what I expected I would: the fat people were furious because they thought they were just fine, the elderly people made excuses because they thought they were just fine, the thin people castigated the fat people, the fat people castigated the thin people, and the only thing I've gathered from this is that most Christians seem to think that their weight is an area where they are impervious to any sort of critique from other people. That's helpful in itself, and I'll think twice before I post something like this again. Thanks.
-Ross
PS:
quote:
Looking like a fit twenty year old is not the most healthy thing for most older women. It can require a woman to sacrifice her health, her time, and her enjoyment of life. Asking a wife to make these kinds of sacrifices simply because it pleases you is a reflection of nothing other than pure selfishness.
My wife is young, in perfect shape, and during a period after she began birth control when she packed on a significant amount of weight, I didn't bother her about it. I would never criticize someone for their weight, I was just wondering why we feel constrained not to. That's why I said this was a hypothetical question. It's not selfish of me because it's not a real case.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 1:00:18 PM
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benelchi
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
Yes. That's the true fatal flaw in the OP question.
What fatal flaw? I guess I don't see where Ross is wrong. Maybe his presentation is wrong, but weight, especially in the christian community is almost taboo. Is he really wanting woman to starve themselves? Is he really asking woman to look go back and look like they just turned 20? I don't think so and if you do, please go back and show me where he said this.
I've been to a few churches in my life and have seen many woman let themselves go after they get married, husbands too. Why is that?
I think the issue is in the lack of balance. Yes, weight is almost taboo and no it shouldn't be a taboo subject. However, when the driving issue behind a spouse's weight is all about what I want to see and does not take into consideration what is best for them then it is nothing more than selfishness. While it is true that there are far too many people that have weight issues because of "gluttony" i.e. lack of self discipline (something that should be addressed), there are just as many whose weight is healthy and is a reflection of good and proper choices and yet their body still doesn't meet the Hollywood perception of ideal. Sometimes an issue of weight is something that should be addressed and sometimes there simply is not an issue; the question is all about where the focus and heart are and when the focus is all about what I want to see and not what is truly best for my wife then something is very wrong.
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אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 1:00:22 PM
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Corne
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Weight is a problem for our society. It is a health issue. It is the bi-product of a non agrarian, non labor culture that are eating foods with hidden dangers, (like corn sweetener) and ingesting estrogen-ike chemicals from plastics, etc.
Does health matter? Yes, to Christian and non Christians alike. It should be addressed in life, but not as a moral issue or a spiritual issue.
In marriage people need to realize that the 20's are the prime physical health years. It goes downhill from there. Maintaining health and encountering health issues is different every decade of our lives.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 1:09:45 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
...and the only thing I've gathered from this is that most Christians seem to think that their weight is an area where they are impervious to any sort of critique from other people. That's helpful in itself, and I'll think twice before I post something like this again. Thanks.
A person should have the right relationship for critique. "Other people" might not have that relationship. A spouse you would think, has that relationship, but if not coming with a PURE heart toward the spouse, and the understanding of health etc required, that critique might be nothing but harmful.
It's very difficult for a thin-ish person to be be pride free when looking at a thick-ish person and deciding that that person needs critique and intervention. That right there should shut most people tempted to critique, up.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 1:13:52 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 4567
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
quote:
Asking a wife to make these kinds of sacrifices simply because it pleases you is a reflection of nothing other than pure selfishness.
I think we can conclude this discussion now. Sorry to bother you, and for not specifically starting with the premise that everyone must be elderly and in a position where weight loss is difficult or impossible. I was just trying to see why it was that physical appearance was considered to be superficial rather than integral to a person, but instead I got just what I expected I would: the fat people were furious because they thought they were just fine, the elderly people made excuses because they thought they were just fine, the thin people castigated the fat people, the fat people castigated the thin people, and the only thing I've gathered from this is that most Christians seem to think that their weight is an area where they are impervious to any sort of critique from other people. That's helpful in itself, and I'll think twice before I post something like this again. Thanks.
-Ross
I think you have chosen to read only the parts of my post that you WANTED to hear, let me bold the part you didn't seem to see.
quote:
There is nothing wrong with discussing issues about weight with a spouse and even telling them what you find attractive, but when the focus of the discussion is all about what you want and not about what is best for your wife something is very wrong.
I don't think that most who are criticizing you are doing so because they believe discussing issues of weight is taboo, but because they believe what you have presented is not a very godly perspective on this issue. And no people are not reacting to you simply because they are "fat"; taking cheep shots at people who disagree with you doesn't add much to your position does it? Do you realize that some who have reacted strongly against what you have said are not fat, do exercise regularly, etc... or are you so blinded that you believe that the only reason to disagree with you is simple because someone is "fat?"
ETA: BIG FAT ME
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 1:18:17 PM
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myka
Posts: 978
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quote:
I was just trying to see why it was that physical appearance was considered to be superficial rather than integral to a person, but instead I got just what I expected I would: the fat people were furious because they thought they were just fine, the elderly people made excuses because they thought they were just fine, the thin people castigated the fat people, the fat people castigated the thin people, and the only thing I've gathered from this is that most Christians seem to think that their weight is an area where they are impervious to any sort of critique from other people.
There are some pretty strong assumptions that you made in this statement; how do you know the weight of all the people here and what their position is? Granted, some people have identified themselves as certain types, but there are some who have not.
quote:
1. All living organisms must consume energy to continue to maintain their biological organization and internal regulation.
2. For humans, the bulk of that energy normally comes from consuming and digesting food, which is then turned into the energy.
3. In the event that the body is denied food for an extended period of time, the body is capable of relying predominantly on energy in long term storage as fat.
4. If the denial of food continues long enough, fat will be consumed. Any measurable consumption of fat means that weight has been lost. Ergo, there is no person for whom weight loss is impossible, as you claim above. If the measures are too extreme, or too dangerous, then they may not wish to try, for which nobody can blame them! However, unwillingness to fast or undergo surgery is still a question of will, not ability, which although noble and in the right place, is a self-imposed barrier. For some people, it may be so difficult that it feels impossible, but this is very different from something actually being impossible.
More assumptions... The problem is that the human body is very adept at storing fat--it's a survival strategy. If a person were starving themselves, the body tends to slow down its rate of consumption of calories significantly. "Surgery" is not always an option, and most people who have weight problems are fully aware of the problem and have tried to address it which sometimes leads to more weight gain (slowing the metabolic rate down).
I would suggest studying the issue more (I'm sure that there are some books on the subject).
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 1:43:25 PM
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truthrevealed
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Ross, I understood the hypothetical nature of the question. Obviously weight is a deep seated issue for many people----not hypothetical at all for many!
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 1:44:40 PM
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stellaluna
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I'm having trouble believing a Christian man would suggest surgery if someone is overweight. Niiiice.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 3:05:46 PM
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becomingwhole
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quote:
Ross.Lang(said)
In the event that the body is denied food for an extended period of time, the body is capable of relying predominantly on energy in long term storage as fat.
I wanted to reply to this. I am someone who does struggle with my weight as stated earlier. I fast often, and even do extended fast yearly, and by extended I mean for 21 days with just water, protein drink in the morning, and maybe a drink at night. I do lose weight, but what I mainly lose is muscle not fat. I see a nutritionist at least once a week. I journal all that I eat, and still stay twenty pounds overweight.
I coach basketball, softball, and play these sports as well. I have understood your point, but for me the question begs to be asked, what if my spouse is not having realistic expectations in terms of what is found attractive.
I think weight gets pushed to the back so many times because there is no standard in which to measure normal, other then a doctor saying it. I am 5'0 and my ideal according to my doctor is 140. I am extremely muscled, and if you look at a BMI chart that is still considered overweight.
My husband married me when I weighed 140; he has also seen all that I do to stay at the weight I am at.
It not as easy for some as just denying their selves, because that can cause more weight issues then you could imagine. I stayed my weight in school by not eating, and according to my doctor, that is where I did so much damage to my metabolism, because we our systems are not made to starve.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 3:37:40 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
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quote:
Benelchi: the question is all about where the focus and heart are and when the focus is all about what I want to see and not what is truly best for my wife then something is very wrong.
That's what it all boils down to. I completely agree.
quote:
Benelchi: I don't think that most who are criticizing you are doing so because they believe discussing issues of weight is taboo, but because they believe what you have presented is not a very godly perspective on this issue. And no people are not reacting to you simply because they are "fat"; taking cheep shots at people who disagree with you doesn't add much to your position does it? Do you realize that some who have reacted strongly against what you have said are not fat, do exercise regularly, etc... or are you so blinded that you believe that the only reason to disagree with you is simple because someone is "fat?"
Exactly. The way this issue was presented made it sound like it was coming from a very selfish place (yes, I realize it was hypothetical) and that's what I had the biggest disagreement with.
Benelchi, love that link! LOL 
quote:
Corne: In marriage people need to realize that the 20's are the prime physical health years. It goes downhill from there. Maintaining health and encountering health issues is different every decade of our lives.
Yeah, I realized that when I hit my 30's. 
Ross, physical attraction plays a role in marriage but it's not that important. Our bodies are temporary and they disintegrate over time. It's the soul that lives forever. That's the most important part.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 3:47:33 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
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From: The South
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quote:
Becomingwhole: I stayed my weight in school by not eating, and according to my doctor, that is where I did so much damage to my metabolism, because we our systems are not made to starve.
Others have shared their stories (at least one did) about how starvation didn't work for them. I just wanted to make sure this didn't get overlooked. Dieting and starvation don't always work long-term. Like someone else suggested I think the op would benefit from studying more about the medical aspects of losing weight (role of genetics, disease/conditions that affect it, whether dieting always works for everyone and at what point it becomes harmful etc.) so as to become more informed on the subject.
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Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 4:02:24 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 3404
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
I feel he deserves to have a thin wife and I deserve to be healthy. Dont know where that fits into this thread, but I just wanted to share that.
What if your future husband doesn't like a thin woman?
_____________________________
Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT ~ PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS! 
