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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 6:01:24 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
As Ryanne said, it's very true that thin=beautiful is a cultural thing. Our culture has taken it way too far. People are killing themselves trying to achieve the "perfect" level of thinness. It's really sad. So if a husband tells his wife he's no longer attracted to her because she's gained some weight then he's more than likely just buying into what the media has ingrained in him as the ideal of beauty. I don't think any of us realizes just how much the media affects our ideas about beauty. Yep.
_____________________________
Stovie, Stovie, what am I going to do with you!
Maggie
September 09
My blog
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 6:15:58 PM
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truthrevealed
Posts: 732
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quote:
That quote is directly from Ross, AFTER post 104.
I read that! His point was that weight loss isn't impossible(perhaps he thought, based upon others' posts that people were suggesting that because of x,y,z factors that's it's impossible to loose weight and he decided to mention situations where it was not impossible)
That's how I read it.... and in one of his posts that's what he clarified.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 6:21:57 PM
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truthrevealed
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quote:
The other things you mentioned are different. There's a big difference between failure to communicate properly and telling someone you aren't attracted to them anymore because of their weight. Telling your spouse that is a form of rejection. It's basically saying, "Hey, you aren't good enough for me anymore".
Most people are saying it's ok to discuss weight issues but that the heart behind the discussion is what's important. If it's from purely selfish motives then it's not ok.
I wouldn't recommend you tell your spouse that they've become boring (as in the hypothetical situation the op mentioned) either. I'd recommend you try to understand them and find out the root cause of the changes. We all change over time.
And I'm not one to advocate "letting yourself go". I don't think that's ok for a number of reasons. BUT, just because someone gains weight doens't mean they have "let themselves go".
As Ryanne said, it's very true that thin=beautiful is a cultural thing. Our culture has taken it way too far. People are killing themselves trying to achieve the "perfect" level of thinness. It's really sad. So if a husband tells his wife he's no longer attracted to her because she's gained some weight then he's more than likely just buying into what the media has ingrained in him as the ideal of beauty. I don't think any of us realizes just how much the media affects our ideas about beauty.
I certainly agree that motive and heart is important. I don't advocate spouses who are non-supportive. This might be my third time stating that. I can see how, coming from some peoples mouths "you need to lose weight" or "I would like it if you lost weight" can be construed as a form of rejection but I guess it depends on the nature of the relationship to begin with 
I'll add that most things that really upset us is less about what other people think and say(yes, even our spouses) and more about the fact that we inwardly agree.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 7:04:14 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
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quote:
Truthrevealed: I'll add that most things that really upset us is less about what other people think and say(yes, even our spouses) and more about the fact that we inwardly agree.
That may be true. Many, many women struggle with a poor self-image. And a lot of the time it's completely unfounded in reality. If a woman feels badly about herself she certainly doesn't need her husband (of all people) to feed into it. He should be supportive and help build her self-esteem instead of tearing it down. The media does enough of that (tearing it down). Telling her that she's no longer attractive to him isn't exactly a great way to build her up. Being supportive would be making healthy food choices and exercising (and asking her to join him). Being an example to the wife of healthful living is the better way to go IMO.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 8:23:46 PM
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HisLamb26
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See-I think women are far more sensitive about this than men due to many factors.
First-lets face it-there really is a double standard here in regards to weight (And I for one have never bought the men are visual and women are not business). I am not excusing being unfit or unhealthy-(see some of my posts in my favorite section-health and fitness-I'm a regular gym goer, healthy weight, healthy eating bodybuilding middle aged mom of 3....)
I think women have more body image issues than men, and are really held to a different standard size wise. The curvy models of the 50's (Jayne Mansfield, Marilyn Monroe), have been replaced by anorexic looking stick figures that are held up in women's faces day in and day out as an unattainable standard of beauty. I don't think most guys get what this can do to a female's self image over the years.
Add to that the body changes that go along with aging and child birth, and the lack of time that goes along with raising tots while juggling work and home, and I think you may have a perfect storm. A smart husband would tread VERY carefully here, and not just be thinking about his sexual satisfaction in the bedroom because his wife had gained weight (again-See OP's opening post...). What is it with some men-Do they they really think they all have (or will) age as well as George Clooney or something?
I was naturally lean my entire life, and NEVER had to mind my weight or size even after the first 2 kids....(O I was one of the lucky ones other women hate because I was back in my jeans 2 weeks post birth). Then I had my 3rd baby, (didn't pop back as quickly after number 3) entered my mid 30's, and quit smoking a few years after that. (added 17lbs in 6 months when I quit the butts. Some research has been done that lead scientists to suspect a 10-15% decrease in metabolism after quitting nicotine-must be something to it as many professional models smoke solely for weight control, regardless of the other health hazards).
Now I was able to get the weight off, but it was hard work (nothing wrong with that per se....) BUT my kids weren't babies any more, and I had more free time for formal exercise. There is no way I would have been able to do what I am doing now exercise wise while holding down a job and raising 2 babies under 2...See-Weight is nothing I ever had to worry about as a younger woman....but age, childbirth, and quitting smoking took its toll on my metabolism. I didn't gain weight because I was "drinking lattees and eating a pint of ice cream every night"-(See OP'S opening post)
I started a nutrition and exercise program ON MY OWN, and have stuck with it years later because I really enjoy it. Now if my husband had come to me and accused me of drinking lattees, eating ice cream, and TOLD ME to join a gym because he didn't find me sexually attractive anymore....Well-suffice it to say he would have been the one exercising-perhaps even taken up running, and running quickly at that.  (Yes-I'm joking-but realistically a comment like that would have hurt me deeply and not been much a motivator towards a major lifestyle change)
The motivation to get back in shape, and nip my weight problem in the bud before it got further out of control came from me. I have seen more people at my gym start and stop and start and stop and start and stop an exercise program. Most folks last 4-6 weeks at most. I suspect if the motivation to keep at it doesn't come from within, most folks won't even last long.
< Message edited by HisLamb26 -- 5/26/2009 8:32:19 PM >
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 9:43:09 PM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
The motivation to get back in shape, and nip my weight problem in the bud before it got further out of control came from me. I have seen more people at my gym start and stop and start and stop and start and stop an exercise program. Most folks last 4-6 weeks at most. I suspect if the motivation to keep at it doesn't come from within, most folks won't even last long.
Yep - the motivation has to come from within a person. Outside motivation alone (a spouse, studies and health experts, etc.) will not affect a real, long-term change.
_____________________________
LibriVox: acoustical liberation of books in the public domain
(Avatar: Turkeys are all saying "Moo")
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/26/2009 10:27:06 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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I am working on getting in shape......
yes for my own health, and yes for because if/when I do marry I want to be (and try to stay) in shape for my husband....I don't think it's wrong to try and please one's spouse in all areas including visually (I plan to try and dress nicely for him too).....
HOWEVER.................
growing up, my mom was "never thin enough," according to my dad. Sometimes she did carry a little extra weight, sometimes she was about right, and sometimes, looking at some pictures I think she was TOO thin, and she was NEVER morbidly obese. And yet, she was never thin enough, according to my dad (even though he was never an adonis either). I remember him complaining about it just about every day of my life, until a few years ago. He does not do that now, and he repented, but I don't know how she was able to stand it. And it had an emotionally damaging effect on me, to know that was his attitude.
So, while I have a goal of trying to please my spouse by being fit, but I'm not interested in any nitpicker. Thankfully, my possibility is not a nitpicker, and the only feedback I've had regarding appearance has been complimentary.
_____________________________
Wizard's rule #1 .People can be stupid and willfully deceived (that's from the book, not the show)..slightly edited for CW
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 8:15:17 AM
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HisLamb26
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quote:
growing up, my mom was "never thin enough," according to my dad. Sometimes she did carry a little extra weight, sometimes she was about right, and sometimes, looking at some pictures I think she was TOO thin, and she was NEVER morbidly obese. And yet, she was never thin enough, according to my dad (even though he was never an adonis either). I remember him complaining about it just about every day of my life, until a few years ago. He does not do that now, and he repented, but I don't know how she was able to stand it. And it had an emotionally damaging effect on me, to know that was his attitude.
One of my friends has related a similiar experience to me. Growing up, her father used to refer to her mom as "Crisco" (ie..."Fat in the Can"). He started referring to her in the same manner when she was around 11-12yrs old. That kind of atmosphere is extremely damaging to a spouse and children. It would be a cold day in hades before I would allow that kind of commentary/atmosphere in my home....
I would like my husband to quit smoking, watch his diet more closely, and get more exercise. But harping on him about it will do more harm than good, and only make him understandably defensive.
Lets face reality people: Most folks who are overweight, smoke, or have a less than stellar diet truly KNOW already that they need to make changes, Major lifestyle changes aren't easy, and IMO our life partners don't need a hall monitor of a spouse harping on them about it. I can lead by example: cook healthy meals, limit junk food I bring into my home and exercise regularly...but my husband is a grown man and as such is capable of making his own choices regarding his health. I'm his wife not his nanny.
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 9:59:34 AM
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Ross.Lang
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Guess we're not done. I spend an hour reviewing the progress of this thread, so I've read every post made to date.
quote:
You don't have to explain anything to me about it. I'm a human biologist.
Sweet! I thought your contribution to abortion threads seemed abnormally lucid  What is your area of study? I essentially had a pre-med background in college to prepare for my previous occupation, and married into a dynastic medical family (all the males for 3 Generations have been doctors, sadly, my wife was never encouraged to pursue this as a profession), so I’ve kept up with things better than I normally would have.
As an aside, can you shed any light on the reason why so many third-world island nations have high BMI’s? My guess is that it has something to do with the amount of wild nuts in their diet.
quote:
And no people are not reacting to you simply because they are "fat"; taking cheep shots at people who disagree with you doesn't add much to your position does it?
It’s fascinating to me that someone who seems to be able to read Hebrew would miss so much subtext of their own language. Let me be clear: I was contrasting the responses of Harvie and 10SNE1? as archetypal of the human proclivity to sympathize with one’s own condition. I was not suggesting that this was the reason why some people demurred from my line of reasoning, although I’m still waiting to be shown what that was; I thought I asked a question. The only place where I argued for something was when I was trying to show that losing weight is never impossible, just very difficult. I was arguing against the use of absolute language because it produces an attitude of complacency and defeatism. Jumping over a two-story house or dead lifting an Abrams main-battle tank are impossible physical feats. Losing weight is just very hard.
quote:
I'm having trouble believing a Christian man would suggest surgery if someone is overweight.
Who suggested it? Not me- I only said that it was available as a treatment. I wouldn’t recommend it because I’m not a doctor and can’t gauge anyone’s individual situation. Anytime you’re undergoing surgery in your body cavity, it better be to stave off something life threatening. Edited TOS 6
quote:
I stayed my weight in school by not eating, and according to my doctor, that is where I did so much damage to my metabolism, because we our systems are not made to starve.
True, Cellulite and metabolic problems can both impede weight loss substantially.
-Ross
< Message edited by Kath -- 5/27/2009 2:00:37 PM >
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 10:52:12 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 5603
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From: The higher lowcountry
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
Why is weight treated like something over which we have no control, and why is it taboo to tell your spouse that they looked better before they were drinking two 32 ounce iced lattes and eating a pint of ice cream every day? Why can our spouses only be counted on to be pushed, and push us, into holiness and a good work ethic, and not into a regular routine of exercise that leads to a strong and healthy body?
Because...apparently it goes right to the heart of superficiality...it all surrounds your (hypothetically) attitude and selfish desire to have a perfect body for a wife...and how men don't want their wives to change one iota and women are constantly changing...our bodies were designed for change, lots of it. Every 10 years brings a whole new woman to the forefront with age, hormonal changes, nutritional and vitamin needs, etc.
I also find humor in that men don't want their wives to change...ever.
OTOH, women can't wait for their husbands to change...faster.
You don't always get what you want...you get what you need.
Health should be of more value than weight. There's a lot of skinny sick people out there, too due to starving themselves on a cracker and carrot a day just to "keep their man."
puhleaze 
Weight is an extremly personal things and can be used as an easy target instead of addressing the truth behind any perceived weight gain or loss.
_____________________________
Thanksgiving dinners take eighteen hours to prepare.
They are consumed in twelve minutes.
Half-times take twelve minutes.
This is not coincidence.
~Erma Bombeck
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 11:09:28 AM
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benelchi
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
quote:
And no people are not reacting to you simply because they are "fat"; taking cheep shots at people who disagree with you doesn't add much to your position does it?
It’s fascinating to me that someone who seems to be able to read Hebrew would miss so much subtext of their own language. Let me be clear: I was contrasting the responses of Harvie and 10SNE1? as archetypal of the human proclivity to sympathize with one’s own condition. I was not suggesting that this was the reason why some people demurred from my line of reasoning, although I’m still waiting to be shown what that was; I thought I asked a question. The only place where I argued for something was when I was trying to show that losing weight is never impossible, just very difficult. I was arguing against the use of absolute language because it produces an attitude of complacency and defeatism. Jumping over a two-story house or dead lifting an Abrams main-battle tank are impossible physical feats. Losing weight is just very hard.
This is a bit disingenuous. You did not ask a question, you said:
"I got just what I expected I would: the fat people were furious because they thought they were just fine, the elderly people made excuses because they thought they were just fine, the thin people castigated the fat people, the fat people castigated the thin people, and the only thing I've gathered from this is that most Christians seem to think that their weight is an area where they are impervious to any sort of critique from other people."
And this was in direct response to a quote from my post, not Harvie's or 10SNE1's. And yes, I still see your response as a cheep shot. These really are not the reasons for peoples disagreement with your position. The reality is you are ignoring what you got in response and trying to force the responses into what you expected, but they just don't fit.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 11:55:23 AM
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Ross.Lang
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How? Two self-admitted "fat" people were snide and insulting, a fitness buff told others to man up vis a vis themselves, another fitness buff said the same thing, and then a number of long-term spouses chimed in to say that they'd observed that overlooking the weight issue is key to reaching the golden years paired up and happy. to which I respond: I KNOW. That's why I started the thread- I want to know why people are so unbearably sensitive about this issue that the best way to deal with it is to change ones own attitude toward it, effectively saying that weight is so private and so difficult to lose that its incumbent on the spouse to alter their preferences, be penitent, or outright lie to their spouse rather than broaching the subject. Nothing else in marriage gets this kind of treatment. Hence the original question. When I said that I had not made a statement, I was talking about the OP, not my evaluation of the thread. You are an exception to the analysis, but the nice thing about a former career as a scientist is that I know well enough to kick idiosyncratic examples to the curb. Trends, not isolated incidents, are what prove the rule. A single outlier should never prompt a person to alter a conclusion based on wider statistical significance. I do appreciate your input, but a lone voice crying in the wilderness won't make straight the path of this relational conundrum.
-Ross
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 12:12:32 PM
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myka
Posts: 981
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quote:
Nothing else in marriage gets this kind of treatment.
Really? Nothing? In my marriage, there are a lot of things that are overlooked for the sake of the marriage and out of love for the other person.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 12:46:58 PM
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HisLamb26
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quote:
I also find humor in that men don't want their wives to change...ever.
OTOH, women can't wait for their husbands to change...faster.
Both Funny and True!
_____________________________
Feminism is a socialist, anti-family, political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 12:54:51 PM
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Lyrach
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Hmmm.... I see what you're saying Ross...but , as a woman (who almost died, mind you)who struggled with an eating disorder (not a disordered eating pattern, but a lack of eating) I will vouch that there needs to be a healthy balance of what is good. God created us to live, breathe, and MOVE in Him. Body shapes - they come in all different shapes, sizes, lumps, bumps, etc... Some things are genetically predisposed. Some things are not. Do I believe that MOST of this culture has a problem with not caring about their shape? Totally. However, scrutiny of one's spouse is something that needs to be brought up together, and if the hubby thinks the wifey needs to change, perhaps he could try to get her up off the couch for a "leisurley" walk with him? OR, better yet (and I'm still waiting on this one) HE could sign them up for DANCE lessons as an early Christmas gift....hmm...sounds good to me. If the wife refuses, then the husband could maybe talk to a counselor about how to approach her. I WANT to look good for my husband, I want to be his prize, why? Because I know that he loves me for who I am inside as well- that he loves me as a person, all of me....not just my body. I think there are some women who are only valued for their appearance, or husbands who place too much value (maybe more than they realize) on physical appearance. I think the whole body issue can be approached in a good, Godly way, it's just that both parties (husband and wife) need to be secure about who they are in Christ... and why and what He created our physiques for.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ross.Lang
I think it's interesting that the health issue keeps coming up again... and again... and again...
What I'm talking about is exactly the way this issue has been treated in this thread: "It's a health issue or a non issue! The spouse's happiness comes first." Really? If your spouse came home with a facial tattoo and six lip rings, because they "felt like it" would you be ok with that? If your wife or husband came home and had shaved their head completely bare without consulting you, would you be ok with that? What if it reaaaally made them happy? Why then is it so crazy to say to someone who is 35 or under, and has begun to participate in eating and leisure habits resulting in rapid weight gain, "I know you won't have health problems yet, since you've only been heavy ten months, but you really look bad and there's no excuse for it. Hit the gym!"? Again, consider my initial examples- why can a woman complain about emotional withdraw, income level, time with the kids, etc. etc., but a man can't complain about a woman's weight unless her health is at stake? Why is "you're boring and make no effort to enrich your life with interesting pursuits" not a sufficient reason to spend little time with your wife or make a minimal conversational investment in her, but "I don't feel like it" or "I feel healthy" is a legitimate reason for a woman to put on 40 pounds? Why are we Christians in bondage to this bizarre Platonism where we don't consider outward appearance to be a legitimate attribute for scrutiny and analysis?
-Ross
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 1:06:14 PM
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Lyrach
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yep. P.s. doinkdom is NOT exaggerating about the cracker & carrot a day thing, trust me... It's very sad. Things like obesity, overweight, underweight,anorexia, bulemia, and bulemerexia etc... are DISORDERS - and they are called that for a reason. I work in the medical field, and testify that EVERY weight issue is 99% of the time paired with a mental component as well. There are much deeper issues at hand.
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
You don't always get what you want...you get what you need.
Health should be of more value than weight. There's a lot of skinny sick people out there, too due to starving themselves on a cracker and carrot a day just to "keep their man."
puhleaze
Weight is an extremly personal things and can be used as an easy target instead of addressing the truth behind any perceived weight gain or loss.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 2:02:14 PM
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Ross.Lang
Posts: 464
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quote:
I find it interesting that no one using any scriputre to guide this thread.
I'm kind of thankful for this, actually. Not that the Bible isn't helpful, far too many crosswalk users tend to obliterate context in their citations, and suddenly Proverbs says you should be conservative and Revelation says you can't have credit cards. We should be guided by Christ's standard of relationship in general, but this really is one of those areas where evolving human situations creates a little bit of a blind spot in scripture. Just as the Bible doesn't tell us what kind of car to drive or where to live, it doesn't seem to make any sort of value judgments about weight, though the author of Judges does definitely seem to be mocking the girth of King Eglon.
-Ross
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 3:08:46 PM
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Corne
Posts: 1481
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Last I checked there is a lot said about relationships and spiritual growth, and even the mention of excessive devotion to books.
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RE: Why does weight get the shaft? - 5/27/2009 3:33:35 PM
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buckifn
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Thin, skinny, anorexic,and anything close to that is not the standard of attractive for many of us. I usually go into the woods and kill a deer when I want a rack of bones to hang on the wall for show and tell time.
A spouse who loves God and loves God's people is a far more trustworthy indicator of beauty.
Of course not all people are wise enough to realize that- I'm just glad I was.
Some of the posts here reminded me of the goose who lay the golden egg story.
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