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TMeeks -> Deacon who attends once a month (5/29/2009 11:57:28 PM)

I value your opinion on this one. I think I know what it will be; but, I'd still like to hear what a wide variety of ministers think of this situation and, perhaps how to resolve it.

Before going further, I should mention that like many small churches our constitution and bylaws sometimes lack clarity in vital areas. One sentence says this:

"Members who absent themselves from regular services of the church and do not support the church for a period of six months, except it be for legitimate excuse such as sickness, army service, travel, etc. shall be considered inactive members and shall be placed on an nonactive roll. They shall not be permitted to vote or hold any church office."

We have a very small church. The average attendence in just 15-20 on any given Sunday. Currently there are 4 deacons. Two of them are a father and a son. The son is an excellent man. Altogether the family constitutes about half of the congregation.

About two years ago, the father and his wife became angry over an issue and they now go to another church. The elder deacon's wife never comes to our church; but, to keep her voting rights she, apparently, does give some money to the church. Her husband argues the above sentences do not mean one must do BOTH. It simply means one must at least do one or the other. While most of us, admit that the sentences lack clarity, feel otherwise; but, are in a bit of a bind since it IS possible to make the case they are making.

But, the worst is yet to come. The deacon has never relinquished his position. One Sunday each month, designated as the Sunday on which the deacons meet, his car magicly shows up. Otherwise he does NOT attend Sunday services. The same is true of our only other service, the weekly Bible Study and Prayer service on Wednesday evenings. He does not attend any of the Wednesday night services except the one, once a month, on which we hold our monthly business meeting.

In other words, for about 2 years, one of our 4 deacons only attends the church on the days when there are meetings controlling the church... "Church Control Sunday" and "Church Control Wednesday" for a total of 2 meetings a month.

He consistently either blocks or denigrates any outreach activities... The line always SOUNDS caring and thoughtfully Christian like, "We're always thinking about the people outside the church. Why aren't we doing more for the people in the church." But, the underlying anger that comes out as he talks belies the sentiment.

Finally, this same person demands that the deacons and only the deacons can approve any initiative of the church and that includes things like cookouts and outreach ministries.

The big problem is that while just about everyone knows this man should not be in the deacon's role, they do not want to confront him because they are afraid of losing the son's family in the process. Remember, this is a church down under 20 people.

I'm certainly concerned about the damage this has caused to our church. But, I'm more concerned about what it says about our church. Looking from the outside, how do you see this?



bolt. -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 12:13:29 AM)

I think that a concerned member, such as yourself, should introduce a motion to clarify that bylaw at one of your meetings. You should clarify it to say something that seems clear and fair... in fact, I don't see any reason why 'supporting the Church' while not attending should give someone rights in a group of-which they are not funtionally a part. Simply removing that clause may do a lot. You could also have some part of it that would identify the habits of the 'deacon' as not acceptable in a 'officer'.

Your motion should include the exact wording of the new paragraph as you would desire to see it.

There should then follow a seconder for your motion to ammend the bylaws, after which the chairperson should moderate a time-limited discussion.

During the discussion, if there might be some re-wording that seems wise, you can withdraw the motion and put it forward again.

Then there must be a vote by which the motion is passed or defeated. If it is passed, it is enacted. If it fails, you've got fallout -- but if you are right in the opinions of the congregation, then there should not be a problem with it passing.

You may want to pre-circulate a meeting agenda that reveals the motion that will be on the table, if you think that might have a better tone than a blindside -- or the blindside might cut down on pre-meeting backbiting. Your call. (Do be sure to tell your chairperson though, and review the rules of order that pertain to bylaw changes, and also those that refer to keeping order in a contentous discussion.)



TheTartanTammy -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 5:34:21 AM)

The problem with church bi-laws and constitutions is that they are not always entirely biblical. As they have developed over the years they come to reflect more of the culture around, i.e. union and employment laws etc.

I would go straight to scripture and on this particular one follow through on what our Lord Jesus says in Matt 18: 15 ff

15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be[c]bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.

19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

The attitude of the individual concerned is not healthy or helpful concerning the local body of Christ, in fact it could be argued that he is hindering growth!

Ps 27: 1 The LORD is my light and my salvation—
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life—
of whom shall I be afraid?



zoebob -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 8:40:48 AM)

quote:


"Members who absent themselves from regular services of the church and do not support the church for a period of six months, except it be for legitimate excuse such as sickness, army service, travel, etc. shall be considered inactive members and shall be placed on an nonactive roll. They shall not be permitted to vote or hold any church office."


I don't see how this is ambiguous. It says that they must attend AND support...not "or"



ta_mosquito -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 9:07:51 AM)

quote:

I don't see how this is ambiguous. It says that they must attend AND support...not "or"

Exactly my thought.



rcjames -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 9:30:43 AM)

This is the fault of a mamby pamby board in not addressing the situation.

Some of the excuses that many small Church leadership use in putting up with situations such as this is; the guy is a big tither, or the guy has a lot of family in the Church and they would all leave if the guy is confronted, etc.

The leadership should trust God for the financials, and attendance numbers and do what is right to do.

Thanks
RC



Consecrated2God -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 9:41:31 AM)

I agree with RC. More often than not, those families that have to control the church and threaten to leave whenever they don't get the way are the ones keeping it from growing. Cut them loose--God will take care of you. You might actually experience some real growth when they leave, because you won't have someone blocking outreach every step of the way.



TMeeks -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 9:46:13 PM)

I guess the word that comes to mind, and is demonstrated in your reply, is idolatry. Who upholds the church? Is it the family? Or, is it God?

But, the good news is that it appears that the situation has become intolerable enough for the pastor to approach some to try to get the man to step down voluntarily. For now, we will just wait and see how well that option works. If it fails then we must risk confrontation and the consequences.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

This is the fault of a mamby pamby board in not addressing the situation.

Some of the excuses that many small Church leadership use in putting up with situations such as this is; the guy is a big tither, or the guy has a lot of family in the Church and they would all leave if the guy is confronted, etc.

The leadership should trust God for the financials, and attendance numbers and do what is right to do.

Thanks
RC



TMeeks -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 9:48:07 PM)

You've pointed out something that may be a real possibility. We have not had a single new person stay in the past 10 years... and, I suspect the control situation is part of the reason why.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

I agree with RC. More often than not, those families that have to control the church and threaten to leave whenever they don't get the way are the ones keeping it from growing. Cut them loose--God will take care of you. You might actually experience some real growth when they leave, because you won't have someone blocking outreach every step of the way.



sharonjef2007 -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 10:17:13 PM)

I don't understand why they would want to continue in a leadership role in a church they don't even go to anymore. Weird.

I agree with Consecrated and RC. Change the by-laws, make them more clear. Tell the family they can be members or not. Their choice but this luke warm stuff needs to go.



still4gvn -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/30/2009 10:33:57 PM)

Have you spoken to the son who is a deacon? along the lines of 'we've appreciated your father's ministry, but he doesn't seem to like this church much anymore. How do you think we could improve the situation?'



TMeeks -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/31/2009 12:23:38 AM)

I was told today that this is the plan. If that doesn't work, we move to something else. This certainly would be the preferrable way to go for the least disruption, etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: still4gvn

Have you spoken to the son who is a deacon? along the lines of 'we've appreciated your father's ministry, but he doesn't seem to like this church much anymore. How do you think we could improve the situation?'



TMeeks -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/31/2009 12:29:56 AM)

That is a puzzle. But, given that the church is so small, I think it's that he wants to be the last person to put out the lights or thinks he can outlast those that he apposes. Or, maybe this is the ONLY place where he has any real power.

When I was in the reserves I sometimes drove for a two star general. He was wonderful. We also had a one star general whose father had also been a general. He was NOT so wonderful. I later learned that he managed a gas station. There's nothing wrong with managing a gas station; but, it can't compete with being a general if you're on a power trip. I always thought his heavy handedness was due to the fact that being a general in the reserves that he could never have in civilian life.

The smaller the pond, the bigger a little fish looks. This is his only real position of power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007

I don't understand why they would want to continue in a leadership role in a church they don't even go to anymore. Weird.

I agree with Consecrated and RC. Change the by-laws, make them more clear. Tell the family they can be members or not. Their choice but this luke warm stuff needs to go.



rainrain -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/31/2009 1:37:33 AM)

My wife and I moved to a new town a few years ago. There was only 1 church of our denomination in that town and we visited on Sunday. We noticed that Sunday we visited that the youth were in charge of the service and music that Sunday. We mostly enjoyed the service accept the whole placed seemed steeped in traditions even with the youth in charge. We did not return until one Wednesday night (while we were still looking for a church). That night the pastor was out sick and a deacon was in charge of the service. He lead us in singing hymns and his wife played the piano and he preached. At the end of the service he came up to us and began to vision cast to us what to expect in that church---including but not limited to---there would be nothing but hymns sang in that church, you could do a great service with old time hymns and on and on and on of what would be allowed in that church etc. First I like hymns, but what this deacon was saying to me was that he was in control, nothing would occur without his permission. We left that church never to return.

This church of 20 people have allowed this one person who is in leadership to continue in that leadership role even though he barely attends.
What does the by-laws say about voting on deacons? We rotate deacons, some are voted on a 1 year and some on a 2 year tenure. When is this deacon up for reelection. That might be a way to deal with this issue.

The other thing is this, it sounds like this is more a family reunion than a church. If something is not done the church will likely die in a few years as family members will loose interest and anyone else who might attend there will not stay due to all this crazy mess. Also was the church a larger church at one time and now down to nothing, 4 deacons for 20 people is a large ratio. You currenly have 1 deacon for every 5 people who attend.
Pray for God's leadership and guidance in this matter.



armydude -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/31/2009 9:07:34 AM)

I'm going to post blind here, so please bear with me.

You said in the OP...
quote:

The deacon has never relinquished his position. One Sunday each month, designated as the Sunday on which the deacons meet, his car magicly shows up. Otherwise he does NOT attend Sunday services. The same is true of our only other service, the weekly Bible Study and Prayer service on Wednesday evenings. He does not attend any of the Wednesday night services except the one, once a month, on which we hold our monthly business meeting.
So he has demonstrated no loyalty to the church outside of the business meetings, but he still holds the title and attends the meetings. This is not right. I don't know of any organization that would willingly allow someone that was not a stakeholder (i.e. had something to lose) to be a leader in the organization. This person seemingly has nothing to lose if the church fails, and since he's attending another church, he has a lot to gain (new members coming from the failed church to his). Strictly from a business perspective, that's bad business.



TMeeks -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/31/2009 8:58:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rainrain
The other thing is this, it sounds like this is more a family reunion than a church. If something is not done the church will likely die in a few years as family members will loose interest and anyone else who might attend there will not stay due to all this crazy mess. Also was the church a larger church at one time and now down to nothing, 4 deacons for 20 people is a large ratio. You currenly have 1 deacon for every 5 people who attend.
Pray for God's leadership and guidance in this matter.


Obviously, this situation has been very harmful to the church. But, it's even MORE critical now because those of us who see our role as STEWARDS rather than OWNERS of the church know that we need to seriously begin looking for options that include officially closing our church and allowing a restart to come into the facilities. Or, offering our facilities as a satelite church of one of the larger ones in the area. This requires a vision for MINISTRY and not PRESERVATION. And, this person is clearly in the preservation camp thinking, perhaps, that the doors can be kept open for years by simply selling off assets.



TMeeks -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (5/31/2009 9:05:29 PM)

Perhaps he IS a stakeholder in his own mind in this regard. He has a stake in making sure that NOTHING changes. And, that he will come back to the church when those of us that are strong enough to prevent his having the total control he craves are gone. It looks like a waiting game to me.

People are working on trying to correct this situation and hopefully the first level of attempt will work. Depending on the outcome of Plan #1, we'll take the next step and move to Plan #2.

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude
This is not right. I don't know of any organization that would willingly allow someone that was not a stakeholder (i.e. had something to lose) to be a leader in the organization. This person seemingly has nothing to lose if the church fails, and since he's attending another church, he has a lot to gain (new members coming from the failed church to his). Strictly from a business perspective, that's bad business.



Richard656 -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (6/1/2009 9:14:23 AM)

This man is doing a disservice to the church, and to the body of Christ in general.

The office of deacon is not a position of power, but a position of service. A "what will you have me do" position.

If this man cannot see his position as such, he should be removed, no matter whose feelings it hurts.

God runs the church. Not the pastor, nor the deacon board.

The sooner people realize that, the better.



SteelCurtain -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (6/1/2009 9:54:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

I value your opinion on this one. I think I know what it will be; but, I'd still like to hear what a wide variety of ministers think of this situation and, perhaps how to resolve it.

Before going further, I should mention that like many small churches our constitution and bylaws sometimes lack clarity in vital areas. One sentence says this:

"Members who absent themselves from regular services of the church and do not support the church for a period of six months, except it be for legitimate excuse such as sickness, army service, travel, etc. shall be considered inactive members and shall be placed on an nonactive roll. They shall not be permitted to vote or hold any church office."

We have a very small church. The average attendence in just 15-20 on any given Sunday. Currently there are 4 deacons. Two of them are a father and a son. The son is an excellent man. Altogether the family constitutes about half of the congregation.

About two years ago, the father and his wife became angry over an issue and they now go to another church. The elder deacon's wife never comes to our church; but, to keep her voting rights she, apparently, does give some money to the church. Her husband argues the above sentences do not mean one must do BOTH. It simply means one must at least do one or the other. While most of us, admit that the sentences lack clarity, feel otherwise; but, are in a bit of a bind since it IS possible to make the case they are making.

But, the worst is yet to come. The deacon has never relinquished his position. One Sunday each month, designated as the Sunday on which the deacons meet, his car magicly shows up. Otherwise he does NOT attend Sunday services. The same is true of our only other service, the weekly Bible Study and Prayer service on Wednesday evenings. He does not attend any of the Wednesday night services except the one, once a month, on which we hold our monthly business meeting.

In other words, for about 2 years, one of our 4 deacons only attends the church on the days when there are meetings controlling the church... "Church Control Sunday" and "Church Control Wednesday" for a total of 2 meetings a month.

He consistently either blocks or denigrates any outreach activities... The line always SOUNDS caring and thoughtfully Christian like, "We're always thinking about the people outside the church. Why aren't we doing more for the people in the church." But, the underlying anger that comes out as he talks belies the sentiment.

Finally, this same person demands that the deacons and only the deacons can approve any initiative of the church and that includes things like cookouts and outreach ministries.

The big problem is that while just about everyone knows this man should not be in the deacon's role, they do not want to confront him because they are afraid of losing the son's family in the process. Remember, this is a church down under 20 people.

I'm certainly concerned about the damage this has caused to our church. But, I'm more concerned about what it says about our church. Looking from the outside, how do you see this?



Okay, very similiar situation to what I endured during my first stint as youth pastor. Long story short is that I attened a "congregational run" church. The first tuesday of each month was a meeting led by the congregation. The pastor and I did not have any say in what went on. We could not even voice our opinion about what was being discussed to as to not sway the rest of the people in our direction. Very controlling environment!

This church sounds very similiar to what I endured. Where is the pastor in all of this?

Clearly, the deacon is still a member and can do what he does because of how the by-laws read. Changing the by-laws will be near impossible because of the "power" that he holds over your church. Fear to confront him because of losing his family is ruining your chances to be an effective church. This guy wants "his" church to be the way that he wants it and is in complete control "legally" over what is going on. Ethically, and morally he is a mess.

Where is the pastor in all of this?

My suggestion: Confront him by the due process that you have in place in the church. He and his family will leave, but that's okay (hopefully, the Lord will do a work and they will stay) because you all are allowing he and his family to hinder the work of the Lord because of petty differences.



rawr.ben -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (6/1/2009 12:06:22 PM)

I don't know how someone can even consider themselves a "Christian" if they are only showing up to be a part of the body of God when they have the opportunity to be in control, and at not other point wish to fellowship or be discipled.



armydude -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (6/1/2009 2:44:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

Perhaps he IS a stakeholder in his own mind in this regard. He has a stake in making sure that NOTHING changes.
Being a stakeholder in his own mind does not make him a stakeholder.



TMeeks -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (6/1/2009 10:31:33 PM)

People with control issues don't bother with the nuances of their rationale. [:o]

I'm sure that he feels he is defending the memory of the church and it's past glories. Fear of change is very real in most of us. But, some can't get beond it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rawr.ben

I don't know how someone can even consider themselves a "Christian" if they are only showing up to be a part of the body of God when they have the opportunity to be in control, and at not other point wish to fellowship or be discipled.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (6/2/2009 9:07:50 AM)

Gee...sounds like my elder that "only prays!" [:D]

But seriously, the Church today is in so much trouble and doesn't even know it...or even care, for that matter. [:o] So many are in for a very rude awakening.



rawr.ben -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (6/2/2009 9:31:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
But seriously, the Church today is in so much trouble and doesn't even know it...or even care, for that matter. [:o] So many are in for a very rude awakening.


Very true.

In this case, this "deacon" is more concerned about having his say in things, and having a voice into other people's lives than about building up his own spirituality and making sure that he himself is right with God.

And this is where the pastor needs to step in, and correct, rebuke, and train, in righteousness with love.



TMeeks -> RE: Deacon who attends once a month (6/2/2009 10:13:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

Gee...sounds like my elder that "only prays!" [:D]

But seriously, the Church today is in so much trouble and doesn't even know it...or even care, for that matter. [:o] So many are in for a very rude awakening.


I've pondered that subject quite a bit. And, it seems to me that at least in part it comes from a very, very small, narrow view of the person and personality of God. It may have to do with not being able to get beyond the size of the incarnate Jesus. If we only see Jesus in his incarnate form, then our view of God is likely to be that of a peer. But, that misses the reality that while Jesus was FULLY man and FULLY God, the man does not DESCRIBE or LIMIT His fullness. The totality of Jesus' being goes well beyond the incarnate size of our Saviour.

John tells us, for instance that Jesus is the WORD of God and that it was this WORD that spoke creation into being. So, the WORD must be BIGGER than all creation. But, to the human brain reconciling the incarnate Jesus with the Creator God seems to be a tough jump... so, the image of God in their minds is limited to that of the picture of Jesus on the wall or hanging on the cross in the front of the church.

So, how can this small God (in their mind), who is roughly their own size, make a serious impact on their lives. The image is just a surface image and the impact is simply on the surface. It infects church leaders, too. Some years ago Oral Roberts told of seeing a 900 ft. Jesus. To him, 900 feet represented a BIG God relative to a 5 foot Jesus. But, when you think about it seriously, a 900 ft Jesus is still pretty small relative to His actual magnitude. Imagine a 900 ft Creator? Pretty ridiculous... unless your God is smaller than that in your everyday thinking.



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