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Was sin created? - 5/30/2009 10:14:30 PM
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evry1needsgod
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A while back I was laying in bed and the following occurred to me. Many say that God created sin because He created Satan. Others say God created Lucifer, and Satan created sin. Either way, most believe sin was created at some point. I took it a step back.
Bear with me here for a moment. The following is a philosophical deduction that I will attempt to convey as clearly as I can. Please be patient with the logic. In the end, it will all make sense.
1 John 4:8,16 teaches that love has existed as long as God has. How? Simply because God is love. Therefore, the concept of love has existed with God (or as God) for as long as He's existed; furthermore, God did not create love, for if He did, He would have created Himself, because God IS love. Follow me so far?
The Bible also teaches that God is GOOD, righteous, just, holy, perfect, etc. Therefore, using the logic above, one could imply that goodness, righteousness, justice, holiness, perfect, etc have existed eternally past.
Here is the philosophical jump. If GOODNESS existed with God before creation, what does that really mean? If I were to call someone/something "good," I would be saying that that person/thing is "not bad," correct? IOW, how can something be "good" if there is no "bad"? What is righteousness if there is not unrighteousness? What is PERFECTION if there is no such thing as flaw???
When God said that His creation was "good," what does that mean if there is no "bad"? Most would say that when man was created and God said that it was "good", sin had not been created yet. But perhaps this is not true. Perhaps the concept has always existed...
Here's the conclusion to this philosophical hypothesis: Since God is good, and always has been, then perhaps sin/bad existed also. What changed when Lucifer fell was the manifestation of sin. Sin had no power until Satan used it and manifested it in God's perfect creation, therefore tainting what once was good. This means that sin was never created. It is merely a concept/idea/quality that had no power until it was manifested.
NOTES
***The following is NOT my personally held belief. It is simply a thought that occurred to me on which I would like to receive some intelligent input. Please be warned that in the course of debate I will play Devils advocate and defend it. I will act as though the above is my personal opinion and debate it as such. If you feel that you are too passionate with your opinion on this matter, and that you may get a bit out of hand defending your position, please do not attend this debate. I do not need people calling me a "heretic" because I simply want input on the above.***
***I am not sure if this opinion has previously been held by any other individual. For all I know there could be libraries written on the above. I do not mean to plagiarize anyone's thoughts. These thoughts honestly occurred to me while I was laying in bed one night. That's usually my best time for me to think and learn! :)***
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 9:45:26 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
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Where is everyone?
Maybe I'm just beating a dead horse here.....
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 9:55:38 PM
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Johnny_
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I'm not so sure that sin was created. I think sin was committed by an individual(s). In other words, there was a clear violation to set of laws and/or rules.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wikipedia
Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule, or the state of having committed such a violation. Commonly, the moral code of conduct is decreed by a divine entity, i.e. Divine law.
Sin is often used to mean an action that is prohibited or considered wrong; in some religions (notably some sects of Christianity), sin can refer to a state of mind rather than a specific action. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed "sinful".
< Message edited by Johnny_ -- 6/1/2009 12:53:44 AM >
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 9:59:10 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
I'm not so sure if sin was created. I think sin was committed by an individual(s). In other words, there was a clear violation to set of laws and/or rules.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Wikipedia
Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule, or the state of having committed such a violation. Commonly, the moral code of conduct is decreed by a divine entity, i.e. Divine law.
Sin is often used to mean an action that is prohibited or considered wrong; in some religions (notably some sects of Christianity), sin can refer to a state of mind rather than a specific action. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed "sinful".
So would you hold the opinion that sin was never created?
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:19:02 PM
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Johnny_
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Yes. I don't think sin was created, rather sin was committed by an individual or group. In other words, a set of rules and/or laws was violated.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Violate
1: break, disregard
2: to do harm to the person or especially the chastity of
3: to fail to show proper respect for : profane
4: interrupt, disturb
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:22:07 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
Yes. I don't think sin was created, rather sin was committed by an individual or group. In other words, a set of rules and/or laws was violated.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Violate
1: break, disregard
2: to do harm to the person or especially the chastity of
3: to fail to show proper respect for : profane
4: interrupt, disturb
So sin has always existed? It just had not been committed until Lucifer fell?
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:30:15 PM
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Johnny_
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Yes and no. The first angel to commit a sin was Lucifer. But the first man to commit a sin was Adam.
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:41:36 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
Yes and no. The first angel to commit a sin was Lucifer. But the first man to commit a sin was Adam.
Your point?
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:42:44 PM
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Zhi
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Well, what is sin?
Sin is disobedience to God.
How can we disobey God?
Because He gave us the ability to choose.
So, was sin created by God?
Well, sort of. It's a byproduct of our ability to choose. But, it's more like the fact that you can only see shadows because there is a source of light. It's not the light's fault there are shadows, but the light makes it possible for shadows to be cast.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:49:17 PM
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Johnny_
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My point is the book of Romans. "Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned." (Romans 5:12). I would disagree with Zhi. Just because man has the ability to sin, that doesn't mean God created sin.
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:55:22 PM
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Johnny_
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If I have the ability to eat a chocolate cake, does that mean that God created a chocolate cake? Of course not, that is absurd.
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:56:53 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Johnny_
My point is the book of Romans. "Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death resulted from sin, therefore everyone dies, because everyone has sinned." (Romans 5:12). I would disagree with Zhi. Just because man has the ability to sin, that doesn't mean God created sin.
I would further emphasize that the verse you used says "sin ENTERED the world..." I guess if I were to seriously adhere to my OP, I could use this verse to evidence the fact that the concept of sin always existed but did not ENTER the world until Adam disobeyed. Something can not enter the world if it does not exist, correct?
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 10:58:08 PM
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Zhi
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I think you're missing my point.
I said that God did not directly create sin, but that sin is a potential byproduct of free choice. Ultimately God did create the chocolate cake, as He created all matter, but that doesn't mean that God wants us to gorge ourselves on chocolate cake until we die of diabetes.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 11:00:50 PM
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drmark
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Sin is not a physical entity, thus it was not created during the First Week. In particular, note God's assessment of His creation in Genesis 1:31. "Very or exceedingly good" is most incompatible with sin!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 11:06:16 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Sin is not a physical entity, thus it was not created during the First Week. In particular, note God's assessment of His creation in Genesis 1:31. "Very or exceedingly good" is most incompatible with sin!
So when do you believe sin existed? For eternity past? When Lucifer fell? When God created Lucifer? When Adam sinned? Other?
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RE: Was sin created? - 5/31/2009 11:27:39 PM
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LCannon
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No. Sin(arrogance)was not created but was as a result of Satan's deception that Eve fell into and that Adam fully participate in. Both were equally responsible, Eve by deception and Adam in total responsibility to the consequence(though probably not fully appreciative of the total ramification of his action as we rarely are)in an attempt salvage a relationship with Eve thus curtailing his full communion with God.
James 1:12-'Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. 13 No one, when tempted, should say, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. 14 But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it; 15 then, when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and that sin, when it is fully grown, gives birth to death. '
_____________________________
'I will never leave you nor forsake you.' (Joshua 1:5)
''Let the very worst thing come to pass[and]even there,
especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Was sin created? - 6/1/2009 10:29:45 AM
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pabrain
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Hi Johnny.
You said,
"Yes and no. The first angel to commit a sin was Lucifer. But the first man to commit a sin was Adam".
The word translated, "man", in Scripture means mankind, or the human race of which about half are female.
The first human to commit sin was Eve, not Adam.
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RE: Was sin created? - 6/1/2009 11:06:37 AM
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drmark
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quote:
So when do you believe sin existed? What I believe is irrelevant. What God states in Romans 5:12-14 and 1 Cor 15:21-22 is most relevant!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was sin created? - 6/1/2009 12:13:02 PM
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Benoni2
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God is the creator and controller of all things to include the fall of all humanity, and the creator of Satan who God created as a liar not an arch angel.
Romans 8:20 declares: it was “Adam’s choice” not “Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse”. You try to tell me that "Adam can choose something that effected all of humanity and God had no say in the matter even though Romans 8 declares “For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly”.
Adam had to fall; he could choose nothing over God’s Sovereign and complete will; there is no freewill when it comes to savation and there is no freewill with man falling; it was God who took the blame.
You are telling me choose disobey even thought Roman 8 declares. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.
They had no choose, it was against their will; where are you getting your information? Freewill is a non scriptural term; comes from false religious dogma, man made creeds; NOT the BIBLE.
Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely.
The curse happened because God ordained it. The reason we sin today is because that is the way God created us. So when I sin; I am a slave to sin, I cannot help it; I do not blame God for my sin; I praise him because of the cross of Jesus that He has reverse the curse.
It is the testing and trials God is after to create a perfect son; it is the experience of the death process that makes us son.
Heb 5; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Are we robots or puppets like Adam would of been if he did not fall; or are we God's Children seeking to be a full born manafested, overcoming son?
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RE: Was sin created? - 6/1/2009 6:50:18 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Benoni2
God is the creator and controller of all things to include the fall of all humanity, and the creator of Satan who God created as a liar not an arch angel.
Adam had to fall; he could choose nothing over God’s Sovereign and complete will; there is no freewill when it comes to savation and there is no freewill with man falling; it was God who took the blame.
You are telling me choose disobey even thought Roman 8 declares. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.
They had no choose, it was against their will; where are you getting your information? Freewill is a non scriptural term; comes from false religious dogma, man made creeds; NOT the BIBLE.
Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely.
The curse happened because God ordained it. The reason we sin today is because that is the way God created us. So when I sin; I am a slave to sin, I cannot help it; I do not blame God for my sin; I praise him because of the cross of Jesus that He has reverse the curse.
It is the testing and trials God is after to create a perfect son; it is the experience of the death process that makes us son.
Heb 5; 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Are we robots or puppets like Adam would of been if he did not fall; or are we God's Children seeking to be a full born manafested, overcoming son?
We aren't talking about free will here...
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RE: Was sin created? - 6/1/2009 6:55:34 PM
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drmark
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Sure we are, using benoni's warped reasoning. If sin was created, then everyone is ordained by God to sin. If free will was created, then God simply knows that everyone chooses to sin. What is your definition of sin, e1ng, for this thread discussion?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was sin created? - 6/1/2009 7:05:09 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Sure we are, using benoni's warped reasoning. If sin was created, then everyone is ordained by God to sin. If free will was created, then God simply knows that everyone chooses to sin. What is your definition of sin, e1ng, for this thread discussion?
Sin = doing wrong or not doing right.
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RE: Was sin created? - 6/1/2009 10:10:11 PM
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drmark
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In other words, willful disobedience to the known will of God. By this correct definition, sin was not created. Our ability to choose to sin was created!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was sin created? - 6/1/2009 10:30:08 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1760
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
In other words, willful disobedience to the known will of God. By this correct definition, sin was not created. Our ability to choose to sin was created!
So sin always existed but not manifested until someone/something CHOSE sin?
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Makes me feel better knowing the first human to commit sin was a woman 
