|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/8/2009 4:49:21 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: seagullplayer
The only hypocrite I have control over is wearing my shoes.
I would almost write the same thing, but I can't. (Am I being blind not to see myself as a hypocrite?) May I respond that the only one I have control over is wearing my shoes?
But what the OP wrote is something I have seen again and again, and there was a time in my life when I was the same way. Thank G-d, when we give in to Him, He can do some major renovations in our lives that will change us enough to make us live like we say we believe.
Just a couple Sundays ago, we were eating in a favorite restaurant where our favorite waitress served us. She mentioned that she doesn't see us that often anymore because she rarely worked Sundays. I already said to her, "You could get your scheduled day changed to Sunday!" when I regretted opening my mouth. I apologized and said, "Sundays aren't good days to work, are they?" She said no, that church-goers didn't tip well, were demanding, and were often rude. I knew that. I wished I had kept my mouth shut. There is one place we could all change.
Too often, I have been embarrassed by the actions of others who advertise well that they are believers. Too often, I have managed around those with sour faces and bad attitudes who make the same claims. And too often, I have driven behind cars with "christian" bumper stickers who were law-breakers, rude and dangerous drivers, and who readily pointed at others with the wrong finger.
G-d help us all. Why is this?
Personally, I believe that one of the problems that is particularly bad in the churches right now. I mentioned it to my daughter-in-law last night -- that some of the churched people are being taught "praise and worship" and they have learned to enjoy that with the good feelings and fellowship, but they are not being taught, and are not learning, how to live. That idea's bottom line is this quote:
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Too many of us are still worried about our preferred "style of worship," our music style, having things done our way or no way. Too many of us are still spoiled children, demanding our rights, seeking our own, running to keep up with the proverbial "Joneses" in and out of the congregation. quote:
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. But we are not ready -- we're still trying to live in pablum.
No, I may not think myself to be a hypocrite, but I have been guilty of all of the above. G-d helping me, I have learned to avoid the above, but what more do I have to learn that others can readily see in me while I remain blind?
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/8/2009 8:10:07 PM
|
|
|
supernova1976
Posts: 351
Joined: 9/3/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: ushalk thus many of these people walk around worried about being perfect in the ways of this world. yet they do not care about being perfect spiritually in their hearts or souls.
YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH I NEEDED TO READ THIS JUST NOW. GOD BLESS YOU.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/8/2009 8:56:36 PM
|
|
|
PopsiLufsJesus
Posts: 4349
Joined: 5/6/2008
Status: offline
|
Matthew 5:16.
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/8/2009 8:59:29 PM
|
|
|
PopsiLufsJesus
Posts: 4349
Joined: 5/6/2008
Status: offline
|
I think in Philippians it says, "Let your gentleness be made known to all- the Lord is at hand."
_____________________________
"Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer."
~ Romans 12:12
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/8/2009 9:30:55 PM
|
|
|
Prairiehiker
Posts: 4175
Status: offline
|
There's so little emphasis on humility within the christian body. If we only try to grasp how sinful we were and how much we've been forgiven, we won't have the kind of arrogant attitude we display when we're out deal with people outside of the church. It's sad that we Christians pray before our meals, then chew out the waitress if our orders don't come out the way we want ordered them. There is just no excuse for some of our rude behaviour.
Remember, if we claim to be Christians, we are ambassadors of Christ. Always express yourself as a representative of Christ. Be full of grace and humility at all times.
_____________________________
Search me, Oh God, and know my heart
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me, and
Lead me in the way everlasting Psalm 139:22-24
-------------------------------------
Go Steelers!!!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/8/2009 9:43:55 PM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: online
|
quote:
Do you really believe that statement?
The entirity of the statement...?
quote:
esus summed up the Law ( all the do's and don't's of the bible ) as loving God and others. If our relationship with God is only about rules, Jewsus came and did nothing.
Yes. If our relationship with God is totally rule based, then Jesus came and did nothing.
The rules in our relationships come from love and no one loved as much as Jesus who went to the cross for sinners. Without this love, there wouldn't have been a sacrifice, and then no way to the Father other than the old testament partial attonement.
If we go back to just the OT laws, we have a lesser faith and Jesus came and did nothing.
quote:
And too often, I have driven behind cars with "christian" bumper stickers who were law-breakers, rude and dangerous drivers, and who readily pointed at others with the wrong finger.
Its why I don't have christian stuff on my car....  .....and like in my house, more than one person uses the car...and even though a sticker may be on the car, it doesn't mean a christian is in it.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/9/2009 2:57:57 PM
|
|
|
RevMick
Posts: 15
Joined: 5/21/2008
Status: offline
|
How narrow is the gate and how constricted is the road that leads to life, and few are the people who find it!" "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheeps' clothing but inwardly are savage wolves. By their fruit you will know them. Grapes aren't gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles, are they? In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a rotten tree produces bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a rotten tree cannot produce good fruit. Every tree not producing good fruit will be cut down and thrown into a fire. So by their fruit you will know them." "Not everyone who keeps saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will get into the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"
(Mat 7:14-23 ISV)
When I asked how we can correct this it was a question as to how we each could individually change the perceived perception of Christians. Many stated that they could only change themselves and by how we lived and interacted with others we could show how a Christian should act. The statement that we cannot change others is partially correct as through example we can influence actions of others. I myself am not perfect, only one man ever was perfect. However I can strive with the help of God through His Holy Spirit to be like Christ in all that I do.
When we remove the doctrine of man that exsist in most demoninations what do we have left? The Holy Bible, and it is that source that will bring us closer to the Creator as it is His written word. If only more people, not only Christians, cling to this source what a better place we would live in.
I know that this will not happen for we are told by Jesus Himself that it will not be until after His return. The Bible tells us how to deal with these failing Christians but I don't see anyone following that guideline. These people are leaving a bad taste in the mouths of many people, not only Christians. The philosophy of forgiveness with out correction is not doing any good for the people of the Church. More and more people are shying away from confrontation in favor of a live and let live attitude. We should attempt to correct the behavior of fellow Christians, calling in reinforcements if necessary. If they refuse to be corrected and insist on non-Christian behavior then they are put out of the church. This biblically correct.
Our faith is having enough problems with attacks from with out, we do not need the same attacks from with in.
_____________________________
"For God did not send His Son in the the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17 HCSB
http://revmick.wordpress.com/
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/9/2009 10:28:45 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RevMick
. . . The Bible tells us how to deal with these failing Christians but I don't see anyone following that guideline. These people are leaving a bad taste in the mouths of many people, not only Christians. The philosophy of forgiveness with out correction is not doing any good for the people of the Church. More and more people are shying away from confrontation in favor of a live and let live attitude. We should attempt to correct the behavior of fellow Christians, calling in reinforcements if necessary. If they refuse to be corrected and insist on non-Christian behavior then they are put out of the church. This biblically correct.
Our faith is having enough problems with attacks from with out, we do not need the same attacks from with in.
The Bible DOES tell us how to deal with them, but it seems like too many of us are so sick within ourselves that rather than work on our own issues, we spend that valuable time confronting others, in order to annesthetize ourselves to our own failings. We all need the Doctor, then once we have grown, we can demonstrate to others the halachah we should all be walking.
Wow! quote:
If they refuse to be corrected and insist on non-Christian behavior then they are put out of the church. That is an unpopular view! But hm-m-m-m. That is what the Bible says.
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 12:37:23 AM
|
|
|
RevMick
Posts: 15
Joined: 5/21/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
The Bible DOES tell us how to deal with them, but it seems like too many of us are so sick within ourselves that rather than work on our own issues, we spend that valuable time confronting others, in order to annesthetize ourselves to our own failings. We all need the Doctor, then once we have grown, we can demonstrate to others the halachah we should all be walking.
That is the problem. There seems to be no one, not even in church leadership that will or is capable of confronting anything. Just look around and you see pastor after pastor falling or leading the membership down the wrong road.
_____________________________
"For God did not send His Son in the the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him." John 3:17 HCSB
http://revmick.wordpress.com/
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 8:04:47 AM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: online
|
To throw out the immoral brother, you have to have not only leadership in the church intimately involved with the Body, but almost everyone must be.
The reason why so many like to correct is because that is the only thing they are doing in this arena. Correction/rebuke, is only part of the process.
Matthew 18:15-21 is the process....if your brother does not listen to you alone, you bring another, then the church, then expulsion....and one is kicked out so he might be reconciled back.
Sounds to me like...quite the commitment here and not just individually but collectively as the church.
So, next time ya wanna rebuke your imperfect brother, think of what is being asked of you to do this process. The commitment...not only to correct and to bring it before others, but to follow through, possibly even to the point where you council the problem christian and be there for them when they wanna come back.
Too many just wanna call out sin in others than to commit to another enough to actually help someone.
...and remember....every stone you throw, you get a ton back.
Correct in love with reconciliation in mind. Do not let your righteousness be the reason, but the hurt someone experiences in their sin. Correction ain't about you. Its about helping someone.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 8:49:46 AM
|
|
|
RustyCarr
Posts: 972
Joined: 3/11/2009
Status: offline
|
GOOD POSTS! THESE LAST 3 OR FOUR. PERHAPS WE NEED TO START WITH THROWING OUT THE WEAK LEADERS!
Boy, sometimes I can be too mean. Sorry.
Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 9:03:20 AM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 6793
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Correct in love with reconciliation in mind. Do not let your righteousness be the reason, but the hurt someone experiences in their sin. Correction ain't about you. Its about helping someone.
And it is about unity and peace within the Body;
Tit 3:10 Warn troublemakers once or twice. Then don't have anything else to do with them.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 10:49:25 AM
|
|
|
RustyCarr
Posts: 972
Joined: 3/11/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Correct in love with reconciliation in mind. Do not let your righteousness be the reason, but the hurt someone experiences in their sin. Correction ain't about you. Its about helping someone.
And it is about unity and peace within the Body;
Tit 3:10 Warn troublemakers once or twice. Then don't have anything else to do with them.
Thanks
RC
Who are the troblemakers?
Pastoral Malpractice and the Visible Church
By Pastor Bob DeWaay
Suppose you were to contract a potentially serious medical condition and went to see a doctor. Upon asking him details about the diagnosis and medical consequences you found out that he does not take medical literature literally. In addition, he has not kept up on the latest medical research and has been out of medical school for several decades. He prefers to make his patients happy and comfortable rather than to force them to confront the truth about their health condition. Would you see such a doctor? Neither would I. Such a doctor eventually could be found guilty of malpractice.
But consider this: The doctor who treats a body is dealing with something that is merely temporal. In a lesser-to-greater argument Jesus said,
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28).
If, as the Scriptures assure us, our souls are more important than our bodies, why do people look to premier doctors to diagnose and treat their physical conditions but select a pastor who sidesteps truth when it comes to their eternal souls? That makes no sense. Apparently many do not truly believe that the condition of their souls is that important.
It is hard to tell sometimes. I guess that is why each individual needs the full Truth, and a full love of it, within them! Then we can see where we really need to improve. Like having leaders who set the PRIMARY goal of the Chruch to be "Train a child up in the way they should go." Train them in the full Truth WHILE PROTECTING THEM FROM THE LIES THAT ARE BOMBARDING THEM IN GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS. That is leadership!
Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 10:51:29 AM
|
|
|
kikos
Posts: 69
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline
|
Is it possible that we are just a bit too concerned with our reputation in the world and not concerned enough with what God thinks? I mean, the way I see it is that the world wants Christianity to fail whether we are 'good' Christians or 'bad' Christians. The world lives in darkness and that which lives in the dark hates the light. So as Christians we are pretty much darned if we do and darned if we don't. If you call yourself a Christian and live like the world then the world rejoices in your hypocracy because it 'proves' that Christians don't have anything real to offer. If you truly have Christ in your soul and want to share Him with others then you are weird, pushy, judgemental or just out of touch with reality. So for me anyway, if the world's perception of me as a Christian is the only incentive for me to live like Christ....well, I'm going to fail 'cause that is no incentive at all. If on the other hand I remember that God sees, hears and remembers everything I do, think, say and feel then I'm going to look to God alone as my incentive to live by His will. The beauty of it is that God not only provides the incentive but also the ability to live like Christ. All I have to do is think about what God has done for me, how He has forgiven me and given me life that I so do not deserve and my love for Him is enough to make me want to please Him and Him alone. Then and only then will we live a life that is worthy of Christ's name and be the shining light that the world so desperately needs.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 2:39:04 PM
|
|
|
ushalk
Posts: 312
Joined: 4/15/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
There's so little emphasis on humility within the christian body. If we only try to grasp how sinful we were and how much we've been forgiven, we won't have the kind of arrogant attitude we display when we're out deal with people outside of the church. It's sad that we Christians pray before our meals, then chew out the waitress if our orders don't come out the way we want ordered them. There is just no excuse for some of our rude behaviour.
Remember, if we claim to be Christians, we are ambassadors of Christ. Always express yourself as a representative of Christ. Be full of grace and humility at all times.
this is a great point. we should be humble. however what i am finding around the nation is many bosses that claim to be christian and are the most hateful hard to work for people i have ever met. the word authority and its use through out the word of god has never been a hard attitude or an arrogant i am perfect and everyone else is garbage attitude.
i think the real problem is that many believe that because the claim they are it. but they do not even know christ on a personal level. see many have knowledge of the bible ( so does satan), or knowledge of christ ( so does satan) but they do not know christ himself nor do they truly acknowledge him. they claim and they go to church every time the doors open. but they have no relationship with him.
_____________________________
if we hide the truth we kill a soul.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 8:04:54 PM
|
|
|
SonInMe1
Posts: 1866
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
Status: online
|
Its a difficult balance...love...and correction. How far do you go before you are....too tolerant....or not tolerant enough?
Some of these situations are individual. Some people react positively to stern rebuke and others react well to more of a supportive challenge.
Having clear church policy probably helps too.
Do you want model christians..or do you want people to know Christ?
When you are saved, do all of your problems disappear...and if they don't should you have no fellowship until they do?
Is it better to hide behind a veil of false righteousness, or to act like you act and be honest?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 8:46:38 PM
|
|
|
Isaiah331516
Posts: 248
Joined: 1/5/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RevMick
Over the last few years I have heard the same recurring complaint, "some of the worst people that I deal with are self proclaimed Christians". This has bothered me greatly. I have taken notice that in several business dealings some of my worst experiences have been with people who are very open about attending "church" on Sunday. To be fair the remainder of my worst experiences ever have been with non-believers.
What can we do to correct this?
not compromise
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/10/2009 8:56:39 PM
|
|
|
Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: being knit together in my mother's womb
Status: offline
|
I rarely correct anyone, because I, myself, have plenty of faults. But I know this: G-d is growing me, and He has been growing me by exponential bounds from 1986, on. Regardless, for me to correct another, it has to be a Major thing! Who am I, anyway?
I can easily speak of things that I know to be right, but correct someone else other than my children (whom I rarely correct) and grandchildren? It is hard enough for me to even say a minor thing to my own husband! I have to be a lot better than I am now to take on others --
Except that there is one man I feel very strongly that I am to say something to, and I will be speaking to him soon. I believe that I must.
Then someone could come to me and say, "Why are you, a woman, correcting a man?" Well, no one else is doing it, and it is his eternal soul that concerns me. I have taken literally weeks of mulling this over. If you must know why this has come about, I cannot write of it any further "publicly."
Yes, it irritates me that I feel I must do this. I am not the corrector-type. I hate it. I would rather eat cooked turnip greens with boiled okra. And that's saying a lot!!
_____________________________
While in prayer or praise, I am only as devoted to G-d as I am in my most private moments.
Abiyah, if you had known them as G-d knows them, you would have answered them differently.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/11/2009 9:44:20 AM
|
|
|
RustyCarr
Posts: 972
Joined: 3/11/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
I rarely correct anyone, because I, myself, have plenty of faults. But I know this: G-d is growing me, and He has been growing me by exponential bounds from 1986, on. Regardless, for me to correct another, it has to be a Major thing! Who am I, anyway?
I can easily speak of things that I know to be right, but correct someone else other than my children (whom I rarely correct) and grandchildren? It is hard enough for me to even say a minor thing to my own husband! I have to be a lot better than I am now to take on others --
Except that there is one man I feel very strongly that I am to say something to, and I will be speaking to him soon. I believe that I must.
Then someone could come to me and say, "Why are you, a woman, correcting a man?" Well, no one else is doing it, and it is his eternal soul that concerns me. I have taken literally weeks of mulling this over. If you must know why this has come about, I cannot write of it any further "publicly."
Yes, it irritates me that I feel I must do this. I am not the corrector-type. I hate it. I would rather eat cooked turnip greens with boiled okra. And that's saying a lot!!
God be with you as you speak your heart to that gentleman. You have an excuse for not desiring to speak up. You have scripture that points out the difficulty and warns against it. But, you can find some good words that may stir his thoughts. My problem is with the men, though. They need to be correcting themselves and each other. But no one is humble enough to stomach correction.
The complaints on this thread are way to common. Correcting problems can be accomplished through good teaching and leading. This is always better than confrontations. But the teachers and leaders have been skating for too long. The Truth is buried in babies milk. The Truth is "God is love." But if I say to a man in my circle, "If God is love, why don't you teach your children and neighbors the Truth about love? If you love them and love God, that would be your first priority" If I said that, they would become angry with me, because they basically don't know how to teach the full Truth. I don't think they have heard it, or been taught it.
1Co 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly —mere infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.
1Co 3:3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?
We need strong leaders and teachers.
Blessings,
Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/11/2009 10:30:00 AM
|
|
|
Nick_Drake
Posts: 601
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: RustyCarr
...if I say to a man in my circle, "If God is love, why don't you teach your children and neighbors the Truth about love? If you love them and love God, that would be your first priority" If I said that, they would become angry with me, because they basically don't know how to teach the full Truth. I don't think they have heard it, or been taught it.
It would be nice if we could all have children like Samuel's.
The most comforting words I have ever received from somebody concerning the weight of responsibility for my Christ rejecting family came from the story of Samuel, one of the greatest and most revered men of God in all of history.
The worst and most destructive words I've ever heard came from the harsh, demanding, critical, and judgemental message of the church about our responsibility to keep our children from sinning and making them believe.
While there really is a general failure of the church to expose their own families to the truth, many disobedient spouses and children have been taught the truth and know that truth. Somewhere in your soapbox you have to include the harsh reality that not everybody responds to the truth, no matter how faithfully and articulated it is delivered, and lived out in our homes. Now, you wake up to this reality and offer some kind of encouragement to your fellow believers in those circumstances.
_____________________________
'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Every wineskin should be filled with wine.' Jeremiah 13:12
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/11/2009 11:11:42 AM
|
|
|
Isaiah331516
Posts: 248
Joined: 1/5/2009
Status: offline
|
Nick,
quote:
The worst and most destructive words I've ever heard came from the harsh, demanding, critical, and judgemental message of the church about our responsibility to keep our children from sinning and making them believe.
can you explain your position further? what is demanding, harsh and judgemental? and are you referring to children no longer under the parents or to children living within the home?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/11/2009 11:47:35 AM
|
|
|
poetessfree
Posts: 552
Joined: 12/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: richartrod
quote:
ORIGINAL: RevMick
Over the last few years I have heard the same recurring complaint, "some of the worst people that I deal with are self proclaimed Christians".
I have taken notice that in several business dealings some of my worst experiences have been with people who are very open about attending "church" on Sunday.
RevMick:
I believe one way this can be corrected is for our walk to match our talk. There are a lot of "self proclaimed Christians" who wear their faith on their sleeve and brag about going to church, but their actions don't look anything like the transformed life Jesus promises through the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. There is also a lot of "cultural Christianity" in the sense that we think we are saved if we don't drink, smoke, chew, dance, vote Democratic, attend public schools, etc. (Ironically, one of the greatest defenders of the faith, C.S. Lewis, smoked a pipe and enjoyed his occasional brandy.)
I at times am a believer who doesn't walk the talk: I struggle with sarcasm, holding grudges and codependent/enabling behavior, all of which I am in Celebrate Recovery for. All of us are guilty at one time or another of being a horrible witness as you've heard others complain about. We are all sinful human beings saved by God's grace, and we'll never be perfect this side of eternity. It's when we think we're on God's good side because we do all the good Christian things--and make the whole world notice how great we are--that we become those "self proclaimed Christians" that make the faith look bad. In Jesus' day, the Pharisees acted that very same way, and he wasn't impressed with their outward holiness.
So it can only be corrected one person at a time, one witness at a time.
Rich Rodriguez
West Covina, CA
www.pandapolis.com
Hi Rich,
I was wondering if you could answer some questions re: CR(celebrate recovery). I know this is off topic. We just started one in our church in Feb '09. Do you guys offer meals(not just snacks) every week? Do you guys have a live band? Thanks.
_____________________________
The Sum of us is greater than all of our parts
Maya Angelou
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/11/2009 11:56:12 AM
|
|
|
Nick_Drake
Posts: 601
Joined: 4/24/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Isaiah331516
Nick,
quote:
The worst and most destructive words I've ever heard came from the harsh, demanding, critical, and judgemental message of the church about our responsibility to keep our children from sinning and making them believe.
can you explain your position further? what is demanding, harsh and judgemental? and are you referring to children no longer under the parents or to children living within the home?
When the church teaches that it's "...our responsibility to keep our children from sinning and making them believe" you are heaping an unfair and unreasonable burden on believers. Do you see what's wrong with that kind of belief? It totally ignores a person's capacity to believe or not believe. Even Samuel was not very successful.
The church is amazingly judgemental when it comes to dealing with believers with young, wayward children still living at home. Of course the official statement of the church is to say this is not so, but actual practice and experience prove otherwise--all the way from your fellow believer to the message coming out of the pulpit--"it's ultimately your fault your family doesn't believe and obey". It's a dangerous belief that can cause more strife and unstability in the family when sincere believers take that message to heart and try all the harder to live up to a misguided and unrealistic teaching of what it means to train your family up in the truth and accept the responsibility for their salvation. It breaks my heart when I see sincere but misguided believers beating their kids into submission because they've been told they are responsible for the outcome.
I'm bracing myself for all the denials... If you truly are an exception to what I've just said, then great. No need to justify yourself to me. I'm speaking to the church in general.
_____________________________
'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Every wineskin should be filled with wine.' Jeremiah 13:12
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Problems with "Christians" - 6/11/2009 9:44:58 PM
|
|
|
RustyCarr
Posts: 972
Joined: 3/11/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake
quote:
ORIGINAL: Isaiah331516
Nick,
quote:
The worst and most destructive words I've ever heard came from the harsh, demanding, critical, and judgemental message of the church about our responsibility to keep our children from sinning and making them believe.
can you explain your position further? what is demanding, harsh and judgemental? and are you referring to children no longer under the parents or to children living within the home?
When the church teaches that it's "...our responsibility to keep our children from sinning and making them believe" you are heaping an unfair and unreasonable burden on believers. Do you see what's wrong with that kind of belief? It totally ignores a person's capacity to believe or not believe. Even Samuel was not very successful.
The church is amazingly judgemental when it comes to dealing with believers with young, wayward children still living at home. Of course the official statement of the church is to say this is not so, but actual practice and experience prove otherwise--all the way from your fellow believer to the message coming out of the pulpit--"it's ultimately your fault your family doesn't believe and obey". It's a dangerous belief that can cause more strife and unstability in the family when sincere believers take that message to heart and try all the harder to live up to a misguided and unrealistic teaching of what it means to train your family up in the truth and accept the responsibility for their salvation. It breaks my heart when I see sincere but misguided believers beating their kids into submission because they've been told they are responsible for the outcome.
I'm bracing myself for all the denials... If you truly are an exception to what I've just said, then great. No need to justify yourself to me. I'm speaking to the church in general.
Hmm... Wouldn't it be nice if we had a unified, "separate from the world," church to help in teaching children? Wouldn't it be great to fill their heads with happy memories of church outings, picnics, and baseball games? Wouldn't it be nice to keep them innocent and protected from destructive outside influences? Wouldn't it be great if boys could see their fathers fellowshipping, worshipping, and CONTENDING for the faith. Wouldn't it be great if children SAW parents loving one another with the joy of the Lord. Wouldn't fathers actually gain a peace of mind being confident working with other fathers to teach them, train them, and have fun with them.
This world is so hectic... and we fathers are not building relationships with one another in the church. I don't even think most fathers know the importance of training them up in the way they should go. From my vantage point I see complete failure. My ex's father failed to teach her. The fathers of the friends I grew up with and loved failed to teach them. My father failed because his father failed. Grandpa became the town drunk, and Dad had no one to teach him. WE ARE ALL JUST DOING THE BEST WE CAN IN THIS HECTIC WORLD TRYING TO MAKE A LIVING AND RAISE OUR FAMILY RIGHT, BUT OUR CHURCHES ARE FAILING. Evil surrounding us is overwhelming us and the church doesn't have the wisdom to stand against it, united in the Truth, and separate from the world.
2Co 6:17 “Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing (believe no error), and I will receive you.” 2Co 6:18 “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
Regarding your previous post, here is my soap box: I am a Christian. I know the Truth. I didn't know it very well before a heartbreaking divorce took my sons from me. I became very, very sensitive to the role a father has been given from God. I had that role taken from me, against my will and with many tears. The judge's father failed to teach the judge that the definition of "love your neighbor" does not include taking children and income from not-at-fault spouses to give to at-fault spouses. The judge's decision has affected multiple generations. My sons were raised in shack ups, by a bartending mother. Nothing illegal there so I couldn't prove her unfit even though they were surrounded by drunks and ridiculed and threatened. I would have had to put hiddn cameras in my exes house. My sons still need the Truth, and I am terrified that my grandchildren will not have fathers to raise them.
See? Don't we dads need to get on the same page (God's page)and "Train them up in the way they should go?" Perhaps then we could turn out better husbands, wives, judges, and politicians. Wow! Think of the potential!
Blessings,
Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
