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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 9:53:14 AM
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Liveloved
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Thank you, Matthew, for your true words, wise words, on this topic.
Carnal man is drawn to such teachings because it elevates himself and justifies doing evil to others. It reminds me of when some of the disciples wanted to call down fire on others. And how did Jesus respond? He said no. He said that is not His way.
Jesus' way is love. Man's way, the way of carnal man, is destruction. Satan is crafty. He uses religion and those who want to be good religious folk to do his dirty work. It is man's bent to follow the path of destruction (sin).
Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord. We need to listen and learn.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 10:38:22 AM
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labakes
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quote:
I've stated this many times on these boards, but I truly feel people give the enemy too much credit.
This 'type' of spirit is mostly what we call human nature. Man just likes to blame the enemy for every little thing so that the blame never rests on them. If leadership makes a mistake, then, 'oh, that rotten spirit of (whatever)...' Since the begining man has cast blame elsewhere for their own errors...the enemy is just an easy scapegoat most times.
Matthew
Great post. I totally agree. The enemy gets too much credit.
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 11:01:47 AM
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bolt.
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Yes, the devil or one of his minions pokes us towards sinful and distructive behaviour -- we are all tempted in many ways. We are called to stand firm in these situations. I don't think it takes a particular one evil spirit to be poking a variety of people towards anger and dessention. That seems like a pretty basic tactic, really.
Calling that process the working of 'a Jezebel spirit' is a mistake. It creates a 'character' that doesn't exist and almost invites an actual evil spirit to manifest itself in that role, once people start talking about it as if that 'Jezebel spirit' was present in a personal way.
In the process of trying to deal with the situation, it can take the participants minds off of focusing on submitting their own thoughts and actions to the Lordship of the Holy Spirit, following Him with a whole heart, turning neither to the right nor the left -- and redirects their energy into various forms of rebuking and defending against something that they view as outside of themselves.
And I agree, it also creates a scapegoat for when that flawed process does not work out so well -- "We tried hard, but the Jezebel spirit was coming against us so strongly."
It sounds like an unwise kind of way of discribing things, if all that the people are really trying to say is that the people in the situation are being tempted towards behaviour that is similar to Jezebel.
And considering that Jezebel never had accepted a godly religion, but was an open idolotress who incited people to sexual immorality, plus she was a mass murderess, I'm not even sure the comparison to her is accurate in most of the situations in which it is used (rebellion and strife within the Church).
In Revelation also, it disrcibes a person who encourages sexual immorality and idolotry.
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 3:21:07 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
I would like some more input on this subject. Is it possible for someone to have this type of spirit?
It is not a spirit as the word is used to denote a demon. The word is used correctly when it denotes the general feeling or attitude of a person or group. Much like saying, "In the spirit of the moment." There is no demon named Moment.
If you look at Jezebel and see what she did and why, you get the idea of why she is used as an example.
There are many people (some well meaning) that use this so-called demon/spirit as a crutch or excuse for, which is what RC said, the flesh. Those who continue to use it in this manner are either ignorant of scripture or out to exploit people.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 3:41:24 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Although he never possessed Adam or Eve, nor 'made' them do anything; it was their choice. There was no force. Human nature at its core, thank you for making my point; no 'spirit' fell upon them, they acted out of greed and their own self-ambition ~~ to become like God.
My point is not their response...but rather the temptation...and the suggestion by the enemy which he is still quite capable of introducing; the fact that our response determines the outcome is not the point I was making. Let's not go the opposite way and pretend that the devil and demons do not exist because we don't want to deal with them. Generic you.
quote:
Sadly, scripture has been taken out of context and turned into superstitious mumbo jumbo that has us jumping at every sound, believing it is the enemy in every detail of our lives.
Sadly, some people go the other extreme and act like their is no devil when Jesus calls him the adversary. I am sorry you see that scripture turned into a mumbo jumbo....that is not my experience with it. It is also not a good reason to skip over it...not saying you do.
quote:
Who was it that always said 'the devil made me do it?' Well, the devil doesn't make us do anything, we do it all by ourselves and give him the blame (credit).
Yes, well, I did not say he did. Scripture says more on that subject then I would broach on this thread.
quote:
This passage is talking about the church's (Christian's) responsibility to prayer; to pray that evil will be driven away, and God's will will be advanced. Nothing about a 'spirit of a cold sore' or any other such thing.
Did I say any such thing about spirit of this or that? I think these verses are dealing with a whole lot more than just a Christian's responsibility to pray. The word wrestle in this passage does not mean just pray and move on. Anyway, this might be getting off topic.
quote:
Besides, a Christian, having the Spirit of the Lord indwelling cannot have an evil spirit indwelling at the same time.
That does seem to be the general concensus in these forums, doesn't it?
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 3:44:40 PM
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solarflare
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I do think that if a person has a tendency to sinning along certain lines, that the devil will exploit that weakness any way he can. Do I think some people have a tendency to act like Jezeble? Absolutely. What you want to call it does not really matter to me.
What does matter, is the harm this type of person can do.
When I say devil, I do not mean him personaly, so please don't let me know that the devil is too occupied to address one or two people.
One more thing, to say we give the devil too much credit does not address the situation the OP is describing. I'm not giving the devil any credit.....but he does exist. I do believe that through prayer, fasting and understanding the situation, this can be overcome. RC throws them out.
That's good, I guess, if you can....many churches just do not deal with it
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 3:48:27 PM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
Besides, a Christian, having the Spirit of the Lord indwelling cannot have an evil spirit indwelling at the same time.
That does seem to be the general concensus in these forums, doesn't it?
If you disagree, then what happens if a believer is possessed by a demon; it scares off the Holy Spirit (he loses his indwelling and, thus, his salvation) or is God the Holy Spirit subdued by a created being?
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 3:49:08 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Jesus' way is love
Jesus cast out demons. He did not love them. I'm not saying there is a demon on the loose here...but they do exist.
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 6:10:20 PM
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DoveMinistries
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what about Judas? quote:
quote:
Besides, a Christian, having the Spirit of the Lord indwelling cannot have an evil spirit indwelling at the same time.
That does seem to be the general concensus in these forums, doesn't it?
If you disagree, then what happens if a believer is possessed by a demon; it scares off the Holy Spirit (he loses his indwelling and, thus, his salvation) or is God the Holy Spirit subdued by a created being?
If a person is possessed then they were never a true believer in the first place. (so called) believer. a form of Godlyness but denying its power.
quote:
Jesus cast out demons. He did not love them. I'm not saying there is a demon on the loose here...but they do exist.
To add to what you are saying solarflare, I will say it, "That demons are on the lose." (1John 4:3) and that every spirit that does not confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, is not of God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and is now already in the world.
Satan is not after what he already has. He is after what he does not have. Christians that have given there heart to Jesus Christ.
If we as Christians think we are off limits to satan we only deceive ourselves.
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 7:00:56 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4926
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quote:
Besides, a Christian, having the Spirit of the Lord indwelling cannot have an evil spirit indwelling at the same time.
I agree, however, even Christians can be influenced by the devil and his angels. It doesn't possess them, but the devil tries to use them for his purposes. Our human nature, when not walking according to the spirit, can sometimes behave contrary to our new nature. I can think of several instances right not where there were Christians involved who loved God, but the devil was working in their lives and had the wool pulled over their eyes. It's like they were completely blind to the fact that what they were doing was a work of satan. They were causing strife and divisions and the fruit was not of God, and yet these are people that we know that love God. It's very sad and troubling when it happens. I believe this happens because they give the devil a foothold in their life through bitterness or not resolving a problem in a godly way, and then slowly they come more and more under the influence of the devil instead of God. If this continues, they eventually will fall away from the faith completely.
_____________________________
"A faith that can be destroyed by suffering is not faith."--Richard Wurmbrand
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 7:35:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
If you disagree, then what happens if a believer is possessed by a demon; it scares off the Holy Spirit (he loses his indwelling and, thus, his salvation) or is God the Holy Spirit subdued by a created being?
I agree that a Believer cannot be possessed by a demon, but a Believer would not act in the manner described in the first place. So a pretend believer can be possessed by a demon, and there are plenty of the pretenders in the Church pews for the enemy to seek out for a home.
Now having said that; i still go along with a rebellious spirit (attitude) by a non-believer (wolf in sheep's clothing) is more often the case.
And as I said; if a trouble maker starts up in my Church; they are wrned once and then showed the door; demon, rebellious, who or whatever.
In all honesty, this should never be a major problem if Scripture is followed.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 10:06:04 PM
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ironsharpensiron
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quote:
In all honesty, this should never be a major problem if Scripture is followed.
And that is the way it should be; bottomline.
Matthew
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"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." Proverbs 27:17
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/9/2009 10:16:19 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ironsharpensiron
quote:
In all honesty, this should never be a major problem if Scripture is followed.
And that is the way it should be; bottomline.
Matthew
Agreed.
_____________________________
<---- Respect the turtle neck
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/10/2009 8:25:03 AM
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Eutychus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
If you disagree, then what happens if a believer is possessed by a demon; it scares off the Holy Spirit (he loses his indwelling and, thus, his salvation) or is God the Holy Spirit subdued by a created being?
I agree that a Believer cannot be possessed by a demon, but a Believer would not act in the manner described in the first place. So a pretend believer can be possessed by a demon, and there are plenty of the pretenders in the Church pews for the enemy to seek out for a home.
Now having said that; i still go along with a rebellious spirit (attitude) by a non-believer (wolf in sheep's clothing) is more often the case.
And as I said; if a trouble maker starts up in my Church; they are wrned once and then showed the door; demon, rebellious, who or whatever.
In all honesty, this should never be a major problem if Scripture is followed.
Thanks
RC
Well put, RC. I agree.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/10/2009 8:44:10 AM
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DaveW
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Yes, there is a real problem with "J" in several churches. I know that many have said that believers cannot be demonized. They also said that true believers cannot act in a way inconsistant with their faith. I disagree with both statements. They are simplistic and incomplete.
I DO agree that true believers cannot be "possessed," i.e., the very core of their being cannot become demonized. Possession indicates ownership. One cannot be redeemed (bought) by the blood of Messiah and be owned by a demon. That does not mean certain parts of their personality or body cannot have demonic attachments to the point that they are strongly influenced. IOW, they become demonized. And yes, that happens to believers. There is nothing in the peshat - plain sense - of scripture to disallow demonization. Possession, yes. Being demonized - no. Get past the (not bibilcal) notion that infested = possession.
The issue with Jezebel is control. We all know people who have control issues. Everything has to go their way or there will be hell to pay. Steve Sampson has written a book with an excelent description on how "J" works called "I Was Always on my Mind." It shows how "J" is more than just generic self centered control issues. There are seemingly supernatural things going on. Unusual coincidences. Stuff that cannot be adequately explained by circumstance or logic.
Now to say that a person who doing this is not "saved" puts us into the unenviable position of judging someone's eternal status. I do not believe anyone can do that except the Lord Himself.
Yes, we are to judge people. "By their fruits you shall know them." That is to judge whether or not someone's ministry is valid, NOT whether they are saved or not. Big difference.
So there are people that have led people to the Lord, taught accurate scripture classes and had other fruit in their lives but have these control issues accompanied by supernatural knowledge. One woman I knew growing up fit that description and was responsible for several church splits and disintegrations. Was she saved? I truly have no idea. Did she operate in a Jesebel mode? Absolutely.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/10/2009 8:53:05 AM
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Eutychus
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Dave, then where is the Holy Spirit in these "demonic attachments" and why is He powerless to repulse them in the first place?
I believe that God the Holy Spirit protects His temple from demonic invasion and that some people try to explain away activity clearly that is not Christian and, at best, Tares giving way to lusts in religious garb.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/10/2009 2:20:21 PM
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DoveMinistries
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So How would you go about letting a Pastor of another Church know that he has somone in his flock that acts in this nature? And do so without offending?
R Dove
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/10/2009 2:36:31 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DoveMinistries
So How would you go about letting a Pastor of another Church know that he has somone in his flock that acts in this nature? And do so without offending?
R Dove
"Dear new Pastor.
I pray that you can be more understanding of so and so than I was, and can lead them into the turth of the Word and the Fruits of the Spirit. For try as I might I was unable. So I released them to search elsewhere for the truth of Scrpture, since I evidently was not able to bring it to them, or at least them to it."
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/10/2009 4:29:12 PM
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DoveMinistries
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Thanks RC
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/10/2009 9:37:45 PM
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Digrieze
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The extreme end of the charasmatic spectrum will tell you this is an actual demonic spirit. It is referred to as a "Jezebel" because its' activities mimic those of the old testament character of that name.
Generally it refers to a person who is using illicit, manipulative techniques to control those around them.
The general context I've seen this used in is when a pastor will "denounce" someone in the congregation (usually a woman) of being a "Jezebel" for "rebelling" against authority. The truth is usually that the person is innocent of anything except voting against something the pastor wants or simply requesting the pastor explain how his teaching fits into something in the Bible. It is usually followed by a sermon on "touch not the lords' annointed" where the pastor puts all the woes and curses of the Bible on anyone who questions them. In other words, I certainly believe there are controlling spirits out there, whether demonic or simply that of each person. However, in my experience, among groups that teach the existence of a "Jezebel Spirit" that demonically controls others if anyone has it it's likely to be the leaders of the church that seem to have a fanatical need to control the lives of their parishiners (as opposed to leading them into a relationship with God where the Holy Spirit leads them). Of course, in the latter instance the shephard would have a hard time ordering someone over to paint his house or do their yardwork "to prove their obedience".
Just a thought, when you hear someone accuse another of this, take it with a grain of salt until you find out who the real "jezebel" is.
_____________________________
My hope, my wish, my prayer is that you find the life that Jesus created you to live and has hidden within Himself so in living that life you may have a uniquely intimate communion with Him. (Col.3:1-4)
Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/10/2009 10:07:34 PM
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bolt.
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While it makes sense to say something like, "If you look at Jezebel and see what she did and why, you get the idea of why she is used as an example." (As many here have done) This is quite sound reasoning as to whysome particular Jezebel-like behaviour might be refered to as a Jezebel spirit. BUT there is a real problem with the application of that reasoning, and It's based on poor Bible knowledge.
What I mean is this:
I have yet to see Biblical reference to when either the Jezebel of Kings (queen during the devided kindoms) or the "Jezebel" of Revelation (false prophetess in Thyatira) did anything like...
"using illicit, manipulative techniques to control those around them."
"rebelling against authority"
"being responsible for church splits and/or disintegrations"
Or any support for the idea that...
"The issue with Jezebel is control."
In fact, Biblically, the issue in both cases (the original Jezebel and the reference to a woman following her example in Revelation 2) the issues are very clearly and explicitly (A) sexual immorality and (B) idolotry.
So, I would say it makes sense if you have a person who is trying to lead your congregation to worship other gods, and/or fornicate or commit adultry -- that person, I would agree is following Jezebel's example and might be said to be having a similar 'spirit' to her.
But if what you've got is contention, power struggles, deceit etc. -- why not call a spade a spade and realize that such a person is operating far more in, say, Absalom's "spirit" than Jezebel's. Or select another appropreate example, rather taking this Jezebel stuff far outside of the truth of her particular example of sin-style.
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/11/2009 1:21:26 AM
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sen10tious
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quote:
ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
But if what you've got is contention, power struggles, deceit etc. -- why not call a spade a spade and realize that such a person is operating far more in, say, Absalom's "spirit" than Jezebel's. Or select another appropreate example, rather taking this Jezebel stuff far outside of the truth of her particular example of sin-style.
 I'd started working on my answer earlier and in the meantime you posted!
Oh well, I support that point. I wrote it in Word because it was a little long, so I'll copy & paste anyway.
Wow, I had no idea there was such a disparity in the beliefs and teachings of what constitutes a Jezebel spirit!
Much of what the early posts on this thread describe as rebellion against authority, I have heard labeled the "Absalom spirit." The Jezebel spirit as I have understood it is a controlling obsession—scheming and manipulative, such as the way Jezebel pushed Ahab around—aspects that the more recent posts have mentioned. She first turned Ahab to idolatry and then in "phase two," used that to put people under her control-freak tyranny. After Ahab's death she continued to rule by proxy through her sons.
While I would agree that the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit cannot indwell the same human spirit at the same time, that does not preclude intense spiritual forces coming against someone in attempts to destroy their testimony. I have no doubt that such manipulative demons exist and attempt to seduce people away from God and into idolatry. I think all such demons could be loosely and informally classified as Jezebel spirits.
1 Cor. 10:13 even shows that this DOES happen: God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape... Since God promises a way of escape, that invalidates the "devil made me do it" excuse. But it also proves the reality of such demonic spirits engaged in active temptation.
When spiritual pressure comes against you that is manipulative and controlling in nature, I would label it Jezebel.
Now, another thing I also believe about demons is that they often falsely accuse others of the same sin they multiply themselves. So if a person is falsely accused of being a Jezebel, you have a strong signal that the person who made the accusation probably did it to gain control.
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/11/2009 7:15:52 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3808
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Dave, then where is the Holy Spirit in these "demonic attachments" and why is He powerless to repulse them in the first place? Working to rid them of the attachments, but not everyone who is saved has yeilded every area of their life 100% to the Spirit's Lordship. To the degree we are not submitted to the Spirit, we hinder His work to clean us up.
We have ample examples in the gospels (and a couple in Acts) of what happens when a demonic entity leaves someone. It can get ugly. Have you EVER seen that happen when someone prays and recieves salvation? I have, but only twice.
_____________________________
Avatar is my daughter Laura and SIL David on their wedding 9/20/09 ====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/11/2009 9:20:10 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 6339
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
Dave, then where is the Holy Spirit in these "demonic attachments" and why is He powerless to repulse them in the first place? Working to rid them of the attachments, but not everyone who is saved has yeilded every area of their life 100% to the Spirit's Lordship. To the degree we are not submitted to the Spirit, we hinder His work to clean us up.
We have ample examples in the gospels (and a couple in Acts) of what happens when a demonic entity leaves someone. It can get ugly. Have you EVER seen that happen when someone prays and recieves salvation? I have, but only twice.
I agree that the Holy Spirit frees one up at salvation. I just can't find examples where anyone was possessed after being born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Jezebel spirit Real or Not - 6/11/2009 1:33:05 PM
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solarflare
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From my understanding and study of Scripture and learning from others who rely on the original texts, the word 'possession' that we use in English would be better translated (Biblically) to mean the individual possesses a demon rather than IS possessed by one (or more). That, also puts a different slant on things. Actual possession would imply ownership.
Demons are real...they don't usually go around drawing attention to themselves however. In other words...banging the head of the person they afflict on the walls etc.....that would just give the whole thing away.
2000 years ago, people believed demons existed and that they could gain entrance and 'have their way' so no big deal to make a big show.
Demons deceive, accuse, divide etc......they do it through people. Not saying everyone is occupied....but certainly many are very deceived and open to being ...shall we say persuaded.....especially in the area of sins they will not give up...gossip being a juicy one for instance. Boy if we could rid Christianity of that sin
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