Concubines (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> The Bible



Message

Prairiehiker -> Concubines (6/15/2009 10:05:24 PM)

Was having a concubine against any old testament law? Did God ever rebuke or condemn men back then for having concubines?



jn1010lf -> RE: Concubines (6/15/2009 10:49:53 PM)

Hello Prairiehiker

I think if you read the scriptures in the O.T. you will find that God took a dim view of a man having concubines. What about the commandment that prohibits adultery? And then there is the eventual demise of Solomon. He ended up that way partly because of his loose living.



navyblueret -> RE: Concubines (6/15/2009 10:57:53 PM)

None that I can think of. There was that once when the young lady was 'taken,' and once the bad dude went to sleep, she drove a stake through his head.

No wait, Abraham was told by God to go ahead and send Concubine Hagar away, because she was a thorn in the side of Sarai, over Ishmael being the oldest Son.

Sorry, but I guess it was quite acceptable to God's laws.

In Messiah. Arley



LCannon -> RE: Concubines (6/15/2009 11:44:51 PM)

Having or keeping concubines seems to equate with idolatry and all manner of grief visited on the Hebrew people because they and 'foreign' wives always brought their tradition, customs and idols with them. Concubines in the ancient world came largely from subjugated peoples and as such they were a right of conquest.

BTW Hagar was Sarah's handmaid(personal servant)not a concubine but after about 15 years(Genesis 21:9)and the birth of Issac, the son of promise(Sarah was 90)vs the son slavery, Sarah was jealous of Hagar/Ishmael. Abraham even circumcised Ishmael at age 13, the sign of covenant, so he wasn't keen on banishment.



DaveW -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 6:42:22 AM)

quote:

Was having a concubine against any old testament law?
As long as she forsook the religion of her upbringing in favor of the ancient Israelite worship of the LORD, (forerunner of Judaism), no.
quote:

Did God ever rebuke or condemn men back then for having concubines?
Not concubines so much as marrying ANY foriegn women, whether full wives or concubines who were foreign and did not take on the covenant between God and Israel. If you read in Ezra and Nehemiah, you will find God tells the inhabitants to put away foriegn wives. There is also a warning in Deuteronomy specifically for kings to not multiply horses and wives and to accumulate a lot of wealth, lest they take their eyes off from the God of Israel.



Prairiehiker -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 7:40:54 AM)

How does the law of adultery apply to concubines or having multiple wives?



DaveW -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 8:13:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

How does the law of adultery apply to concubines or having multiple wives?

Adultery, biblically speaking, is a very narrowly defined transgression.

It is a man having sex with a woman who is married to another man. His marital status does not matter.

So for a man to have multiple wives was not considered adultery. Not wise perhaps, but not adultery. In the case of levirite marriage (where the brother dies and the next closest kin is to raise up children for the dead husband) which was commanded in the Law, there was no exception for the surviving brother being married already. For him to decline (which was allowed) brought with it the big insult of carrying the title "He who refused to build his brother's house." i.e., he disrespects his family and nation.

Deu 25:5 "When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.
Deu 25:6 "It shall be that the firstborn whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother, so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
Deu 25:7 "But if the man does not desire to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, 'My husband's brother refuses to establish a name for his brother in Israel; he is not willing to perform the duty of a husband's brother to me.'
Deu 25:8 "Then the elders of his city shall summon him and speak to him. And if he persists and says, 'I do not desire to take her,'
Deu 25:9 then his brother's wife shall come to him in the sight of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face; and she shall declare, 'Thus it is done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.'
Deu 25:10 "In Israel his name shall be called, 'The house of him whose sandal is removed.'

The only prohibition against having more than one wife is for congregational leaders in the NT. Paul (in Timothy and Titus) says that elders and deacons are to be the "...husband of one wife."



deermousie -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 8:51:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: navyblueret
There was that once when the young lady was 'taken,' and once the bad dude went to sleep, she drove a stake through his head.


That was Jael, and it was an act of war. God had given Israel into the hand of the Canaanite king by Sisera, the commander of the Canaanite army, because the Jews were doing evil in God's sight. Deborah the prophetess told the Israeli army that God would deliver Sisera into the hand of the Israelis, but Sisera got away. Jael fed him and gave him a place to sleep. Then while he was sleeping, she killed him. Fascinating story, and it said that was how God subdued the Canaanites. Judges 4

God doesn't come right out and say "Don't have concubines" or blast anyone for doing it except Solomon, but Scripture is clear that Solomon, the wisest king ever, still fell away from God because of the influence of pagan women. So that still doesn't give us a hard rule; was it because they were concubines or because they were pagan? The unequally yoked deal weighs heavier I think. Maybe someone who has dug into this can tell us more; I don't know how this fits in with adultery but it doesn't seem right, does it.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 9:04:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker

How does the law of adultery apply to concubines or having multiple wives?

Adultery, biblically speaking, is a very narrowly defined transgression.

It is a man having sex with a woman who is married to another man. His marital status does not matter. So for a man to have multiple wives was not considered adultery. Not wise perhaps, but not adultery.

I think you've made the definition too narrow. I, along with jn1010lf, have also come to the conclusion that multiple wives is committing adultery against any one of the other wives. I'd have to nail down the passages again that brought me to that conclusion. If you look at it from the point of view of the odd woman out (on any given night) then it's easy to see it as adultery. Like divorce, multiple wives does seem to have been another concession made to men because of their hardened hearts.

A concubine seems to be a weird middle ground between a bona-fide wife and a prostitute. Non-commital sex for the man with a little house cleaning and laundry thrown in. I don't know what woman would want to subject herself to that unless she absolutely had to back then.



quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW
...In the case of levirite marriage (where the brother dies and the next closest kin is to raise up children for the dead husband) which was commanded in the Law, there was no exception for the surviving brother being married already. For him to decline (which was allowed) brought with it the big insult of carrying the title "He who refused to build his brother's house." i.e., he disrespects his family and nation.

Deu 25:5 "When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.
Deu 25:6 "It shall be that the firstborn whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother, so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
Deu 25:7 "But if the man does not desire to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, 'My husband's brother refuses to establish a name for his brother in Israel; he is not willing to perform the duty of a husband's brother to me.'
Deu 25:8 "Then the elders of his city shall summon him and speak to him. And if he persists and says, 'I do not desire to take her,'
Deu 25:9 then his brother's wife shall come to him in the sight of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face; and she shall declare, 'Thus it is done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.'
Deu 25:10 "In Israel his name shall be called, 'The house of him whose sandal is removed.'

Thankfully my brother is still alive, and has a son by his wife already...whew!



SavedByGraceMD -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 9:22:02 AM)

Was it allowed, in this culture it was. Does that mean God was ok with it, I don't think so. I found somethings that I will post. I guess this, along with the act of slavery, are two topics that while God said not to do, He allowed to happen anyway.

Encyclopedia of Judaism: Adultery
Top
Home > Library > Religion & Spirituality > Encyclopedia of Judaism

(Heb. ni'uf). Sexual relations engaged in voluntarily by a married or betrothed woman with someone other than her husband. Since a wife, in biblical times, was considered the possession of her husband, the prohibition against adultery appears in the Ten Commandments grouped with the strictures against injuring one's neighbor (Ex. 20:13; Deut. 5:17). Episodes in the Pentateuch involving Sarah and Abimelech (Gen. 20) and Potiphar's wife and Joseph (Gen. 39:9) reflect the concept that adultery is a sin against God. It is also stigmatized as an act of defilement (Lev. 18:20), and King David is later punished for this offense (II Sam. 12:9ff.). Several biblical passages explicitly prescribe the death penalty for adulterers, both the man and the woman (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-24; Ezek. 16:38-40). The first nine chapters of the Book of Proverbs contain repeated advice to young men, warning them against the seductive wiles of an unfaithful wife. Married men are urged to maintain conjugal fidelity and not to be enticed by another man's wife, called the "strange woman" (Prov. 2:16, 5:3-20, 7:5ff.). Similar admonitions are found in the Apocrypha (Ecclus. 9:4ff.) Metaphorically, in Scripture, the relationship between God and Israel is frequently portrayed as marriage; the worship of false gods is therefore described as an act of adultery or prostitution (Ezek. 16:15ff.; Hos. 2:4; cf. Ex. 34:15-16; Num.15:39).


Regarding concubines

Answers.com says

Regarding what the Bible says on this topic, we need to bring into account the whole of Scripture's instruction on the matter. It was not God's will for multiple marriages (polygamy), having concubines, being merely a secondary or inferior wife, outside of legal marriage. Jesus said: "From the beginning it (marriage to another) was not so." Matthew 19:8. It amounts to adultery.

The incidents in the Old Testament of Abraham, David & others does not even reflect God's will then. In Deuteronomy 17:17, it states: "Neither shall he multiply wives unto himself, that his heart turn not away," specifically being instructions for a king, which David did not follow. Solomon particularly failed at this point.

The standard for leadership in the New Testament church was the requirement of being "the husband of one wife." 1 Timothy 3:2. The honoring of the marriage partner should indeed be: "For better or for worse, till death do us part."



DaveW -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 10:20:02 AM)

If God was not OK with it, why did HE put into the Law of Moses a command that would have resulted in that situation frequently, given how early they married back then?



RustyCarr -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 10:47:27 AM)

Our society and culture are heavily influenced by the New Testament and the words of Jesus. Jesus brought the fullness of Truth to mankind. therefore, He said, Mt 19:9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Mt 19:10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
Mt 19:11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given.
Mt 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
People today consider sexual faithfulness part of love. And it should be part of love. Our emotions are connected to what we believe, and an unfaithful spouse is percieved to NOT LOVE their spouse. It tears apart the emotional stability of the offended spouse in our society, today. This being the case, a Christian marriage ought to be faithful. A Christian husband loves his wife, therefore he desires to build her up in the Lord (Love), rather than inflict emotional pain. Most often, the unfaithful become entangled with expectations and obligations to their new sexual partner. Thus, time spent with his spouse and family is forsaken. Love is taken away, while the sexual partner places demands on the unfaithful spouse. Often this results in jealousies, self pity, etc. in the jilted spouse which leads to what psychiatrists have labeled "co-dependency." Co-dependency is where someone places their well being in the hands of another. They cannot be well unless the other performs according to their expectations and desires. Further down this path, we find unreasonable expectations to lead to slavery and control. CONCLUSION: The Christian family needs to keep love maximized in the home, no unfaithfulness, AND NO SLAVERY. Trust and respect are earned by our service to God, which does lead us to love our spouses, but also it leads us to maximize freedom. A husband and wife working together in expanding the Kingdom of God with the Gifts that God has given each seems to me to be the healthiest most ideal marriage. Mt 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” But, our society, today, places diversions, selfish desires, and temptations before us at all times. People lose sight of God. Trust and respect deminishes. Finally, self indulgence ruins the marriage. We need wholesome healthy families, and wholesome healthy churches that support those families while "Taining up the next generation in the way they should go."

In the Old Testament, we find sexual relations to be less connected to "love." Abraham loved Sarah, but had relations with others. Isaac loved Rebecca, but I don't remember if he was unfaithful. Jacob loved Rachel, but had relations with others. David loved Bathsheba...... but these men ALSO LOVED GOD. They remained caring and responsible to their families and to God. Sexual relations were not so heavily connected to the emotional well being. Women were the lesser sex (Jesus removed most of that "lesser"ness). Virginity was held very high and taking another man's wife was not tolerated. It was an offense against another man.... All of this Old Testament stuff gets a little confusiing and complicated to me. It seems that the New Testament ideal is far better, much simpler, and ought to bring more joy. That is if both spouses are serving the Master. Entanglements give me a headache!

Polygamy? How about this smartypants answer? If I have one wife who only serves God halfway, perhaps I need another to serve the other halfway. Nah! I'd rather be on the same page fully, "and the two will become one." I like that idea, but honestly, this church today produces too few spouses who keep their eyes on God, on his kingdom, and on passing His truth on to our offspring. (Too much worldly influences) Unequally yoked produces much distress as well.... been there, done that!

Peace,
Rusty



LBolt -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 11:31:47 AM)

It's interesting that God only made one wife for Adam...not multiple women.

DaveW, in your opinion, how much of this applies today.

quote:

Deu 25:5 "When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.
Deu 25:6 "It shall be that the firstborn whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother, so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
Deu 25:7 "But if the man does not desire to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, 'My husband's brother refuses to establish a name for his brother in Israel; he is not willing to perform the duty of a husband's brother to me.'
Deu 25:8 "Then the elders of his city shall summon him and speak to him. And if he persists and says, 'I do not desire to take her,'
Deu 25:9 then his brother's wife shall come to him in the sight of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face; and she shall declare, 'Thus it is done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.'
Deu 25:10 "In Israel his name shall be called, 'The house of him whose sandal is removed.'

The only prohibition against having more than one wife is for congregational leaders in the NT. Paul (in Timothy and Titus) says that elders and deacons are to be the "...husband of one wife."


We definitely live in a very different society in which polygamy is frowned upon and is illegal. Is this taught or practiced in Hebraic or Messianic circles that you are aware of?

Anyone what information may answer this.

Thanks!



DaveW -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 2:45:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt

DaveW, in your opinion, how much of this applies today.
quote:

Deu 25:5 "When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.
Deu 25:6 "It shall be that the firstborn whom she bears shall assume the name of his dead brother, so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
Deu 25:7 "But if the man does not desire to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, 'My husband's brother refuses to establish a name for his brother in Israel; he is not willing to perform the duty of a husband's brother to me.'
Deu 25:8 "Then the elders of his city shall summon him and speak to him. And if he persists and says, 'I do not desire to take her,'
Deu 25:9 then his brother's wife shall come to him in the sight of the elders, and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face; and she shall declare, 'Thus it is done to the man who does not build up his brother's house.'
Deu 25:10 "In Israel his name shall be called, 'The house of him whose sandal is removed.'

The only prohibition against having more than one wife is for congregational leaders in the NT. Paul (in Timothy and Titus) says that elders and deacons are to be the "...husband of one wife."
We definitely live in a very different society in which polygamy is frowned upon and is illegal. Is this taught or practiced in Hebraic or Messianic circles that you are aware of?
No it is not practiced in any Messianic groups that I am aware of. This is the same as all the statutes and regulations that were given to Israel: they must be looked at in the light of the new covenant. It can be either considered as still valid or it can be considerd invalid, or it may be modified. Like all other Torah commands, it cannot just be ignored.

Yes we live in a culture where polygamy is illegal. That is fine. We also do not have the property rights issues that existed in ancient Israel and were seemingly the reason this statute in the first place. So to try to keep this command in violation of civil law and without the primary reason for it even existing, seems irrelevant. It would not violate scripture or God's plan to follow it as such, except for the fact it is against the law. There is a scriptural command to obey the civil laws inasmuch as they do not direct us away from God. IMO this comes squarely under those terms.



LBolt -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 2:54:04 PM)

quote:

We also do not have the property rights issues that existed in ancient Israel and were seemingly the reason this statute in the first place.


Thanks...would you mind expounding on this a little more.

Thanks!



Bluethread -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 3:57:22 PM)

This is practiced today, but not as Adonai directed it should be done. Today the donor is an anonymous male who leaves his seed in a cup and is never heard of again. Though some find the near kinsman command to be offensive, it at least provides a male blood relative with a vested interest in the child. Also, the near kinsman commandment plays a prominent role in the family tree of Yeshua.



iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Concubines (6/16/2009 4:09:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker
Did God ever rebuke or condemn men back then for having concubines?


scripture idealized marriage by referring to one husband plus one wife:
Psalm 128:3 Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house;
Proverbs 5:18 May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.
Proverbs 31 woman
Ecclesiastes 9:9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun

original OT reference:
Genesis 2:24 - first mention of marriage also references "man" and "wife" (singular), one flesh

continuing up until the NT with Jesus:
Matthew 19:5-6 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

so now we know the ideal, but what about the alternative. it seems the OT writers indirectly criticized polygamy by showing the MANY problems arising from this practice - some of which have already been mentioned in this thread:
Sarah's jealousy, Joseph and his brothers, Amnon-Tamar-Absalom mess, Hannah-Peninnah (1 Samuel), Abimelech killing his 70 brothers (judges 9), etc

i believe scripture such as exodus 21 and deut 21 put restrictions into place on the custom of concubines that the Israelites themselves started but doesn't sanction it. it's a sin just as fornication and adultery.



Theo-Minor -> RE: Concubines (6/17/2009 11:14:31 PM)

DaveW is right on the money. There is no biblical prohibition against multiple wives or concubines, which are demonstrated in various contexts to not be wives, but nevertheless women with whom a man has sex.
The closest "commandment" we have have concerning monogamy is that a pastor should be a man of one wife, as someone pointed out. But that falls more to the idea that Paul spoke about elsewhere, that he preferred that we all be as he was since a spouse draws our attention away from God. A pastor with many wives would not have adequate time for the call of his position, distracted as he would be with so many domestic problems and issues.

God himself had more than one wife. He was married to Israel and Judah. See Jeremiah chapter 3.

As for God's feelings on the matter, one need only consider David's sin against Uriah, and God's reaction to it. 2 Sam. 12:7-8 "... Thus saith the Lord God of Israel ... I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives ... and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."
God had given David Saul's wives and concubines, and if that had not been enough to have prevented the sin David committed against Uriah, to have slain him by the sword of the children of Ammon and taken his wife, God would have given him twice as much.

Consider also, if you will, that Jesus said (Matt. 5:31-32), whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication (idolatry), causes her to commit adultery, and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery.
Note that Jesus does not say anything about the status of the man who is putting the woman away. She is caused to commit adultery. He isn't caused to commit anything. Because the woman's desire is to her husband, and he shall rule over her (Gen. 3:16). The man, for all intents and purposes, owned the woman. He was in control. He did as he pleased. She had no rights. The man could put her away or not, as he chose, take other wives or not as he chose. None of it constituted adultery. But if a woman took another man, it was adultery. If a man took another man's wife, it was adultery.

I realize, reading some of the posts, that some will disagree with this stuff, but it is the biblical answer. The fact is, monogamy is a European concept, and since Europeans ended up in control of the church, monogamy is what we have today. In early Hebrew culture, polygamy was the rule of the day, and Jesus' own teachings reflect his culture (though in some instances he may seem to be against it).

None of this, of course, reflects my own desires or point of view. I am a strict monogamist myself. I have one wife. I'm happy with that wife. I will never cheat on that wife. And in light of our modern understandings, I personally consider any unfaithfulness on my part to be adultery, just as it would be the other way around.
However, you have to always remember that the Law is founded in neighborly love. And since love is the law of the kingdom, any "understanding" of a law or commandment must be evaluated in that light. It was perfectly loving in the days of Solomon and David for them to take several wives. Those women would have actually been ecstatic to have been selected to be a wife of the king. They would have been well taken care of, dressed in fine clothing, etc. In today's world, it is very unloving to take several wives, because it would cause grief to the wife.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Concubines (6/18/2009 1:07:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor

DaveW is right on the money. There is no biblical prohibition against multiple wives or concubines, which are demonstrated in various contexts to not be wives, but nevertheless women with whom a man has sex.

Nobody is debating God allowed multiple wives under the law. Many are of the conviction that, like divorce, polygamy was allowed because of the hardness of men's hearts. Which I think you agree with, whether you realize it or not. For as you said...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor (bold mine)
...In today's world, it is very unloving to take several wives, because it would cause grief to the wife.


We now have the tenderness of heart to understand God's original plan of 'one man and one wife for life' as explained to us by Jesus himself. That was God's original intention for marriage from the beginning but because of hardness of heart the OT saints were allowed to violate that original plan and intention.

Like many of the shortcomings and failures in the life and times of the OT saints, we see useful illustrations in OT polygamy for understanding God's simultaneous relationships with both the Jews and the Gentiles, and the conflicts between the two.



DaveW -> RE: Concubines (6/18/2009 6:43:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:

We also do not have the property rights issues that existed in ancient Israel and were seemingly the reason this statute in the first place.
hanks...would you mind expounding on this a little more.
Every family had a plot of land in ancient Israel, to be passed on from father to son. If a man died childless, his land went to someone else and not his children. So God adapted an already existing tradition that the brother take the widow as his own wife to raise up children that were counted as children of the deceased. That way the land would stay in the family.



DaveW -> RE: Concubines (6/18/2009 6:52:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake

Many are of the conviction that, like divorce, polygamy was allowed because of the hardness of men's hearts. Which I think you agree with, whether you realize it or not. For as you said...

We now have the tenderness of heart to understand God's original plan of 'one man and one wife for life' as explained to us by Jesus himself. That was God's original intention for marriage from the beginning but because of hardness of heart the OT saints were allowed to violate that original plan and intention.
So you think that the Book of Hebrews was written to unbelievers? If that were so the book would not quote Psalm 95:

"Today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts..." (Hebrews 3.8, 3.15, 4.7)

In 1 Tim 5.8 Paul tells about a man who will not provide for his house having denied the faith. Sounds pretty hard to me. We all know those who are harsh legalists. Whole denominations are based on harsh legalistic doctrines.

New Covenant believers can be JUST as hard hearted as their OT counterparts.



mvic -> RE: Concubines (6/18/2009 8:31:22 AM)

Does having concubines mean having several mothers-in-law?

Now, that would be punishment enough !



iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Concubines (6/18/2009 8:59:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake
Many are of the conviction that, like divorce, polygamy was allowed because of the hardness of men's hearts.

We now have the tenderness of heart to understand God's original plan of 'one man and one wife for life' as explained to us by Jesus himself.


exactly. it's very clear that God originally intended monogamy, Jesus reinforced that, and OT polygamy using resulted in a mess. the divorce comparison is great - no one can claim God wanted anyone to divorce yet guidelines were still set for the Israelites in this manner.



LBolt -> RE: Concubines (6/18/2009 9:18:53 AM)

quote:

it seems the OT writers indirectly criticized polygamy by showing the MANY problems arising from this practice - some of which have already been mentioned in this thread:
Sarah's jealousy, Joseph and his brothers, Amnon-Tamar-Absalom mess, Hannah-Peninnah (1 Samuel), Abimelech killing his 70 brothers (judges 9), etc


It did cause a great deal of stress in the home. Jacob was constantly in the middle of Rachel and Leah's contention over his affection. This was only compounded by the fact that Rachel was barren for a period of time. I would even add that there was contention and strife for the throne of David between Adonijah and Solomon in I Kings 1:5-I Kings 2:28. One family was pitted against the other.

quote:

New Covenant believers can be JUST as hard hearted as their OT counterparts.


Oh so true!

quote:

Every family had a plot of land in ancient Israel, to be passed on from father to son. If a man died childless, his land went to someone else and not his children. So God adapted an already existing tradition that the brother take the widow as his own wife to raise up children that were counted as children of the deceased. That way the land would stay in the family.


Thanks!

quote:

DaveW is right on the money. There is no biblical prohibition against multiple wives or concubines, which are demonstrated in various contexts to not be wives, but nevertheless women with whom a man has sex.
The closest "commandment" we have have concerning monogamy is that a pastor should be a man of one wife, as someone pointed out. But that falls more to the idea that Paul spoke about elsewhere, that he preferred that we all be as he was since a spouse draws our attention away from God. A pastor with many wives would not have adequate time for the call of his position, distracted as he would be with so many domestic problems and issues.


That's what the Scriptures say.

quote:

God himself had more than one wife. He was married to Israel and Judah. See Jeremiah chapter 3.


This should be understood in light of the fact that Israel and Judah were a divided kingdom. See I Kings 11:23-40; 12:1-15. This was due to the fact that Solomon's sinned in not walking in YAH's ways perfectly. The kingdom was rent from him as shone when the prophet toke his cloak and tore it into 12 pieces.

However, it was promised that He would make the two houses one in His hand in Ezekiel 37:15-24, see also Isaiah 11:13. There are other verses...but I take this to mean that there will be a united monarchy or Kingdom in which all of Israel will be one house or family, each tribe living in his respective designated territory as specified in Gen. 49:1-27, Deut 33:6-29, et al.

The Messianic Reign will encompass of unity or uniting of the Kingdom.

quote:

However, you have to always remember that the Law is founded in neighborly love. And since love is the law of the kingdom, any "understanding" of a law or commandment must be evaluated in that light.


Thank you for this reminder! You are the 2nd person in the past 2 days to say this statement to me. How much does our own culture play into how Scripture is applied? You mentioned earlier that this was a European concept with regard to monogamy, but wasn't it God's original intent for 1 man and 1 woman? I understand what you've posted and the Scripture is quite clear...so is it save to say that God, in some instances, honors the culture or custom of the land as long as it doesn't violate His word.

What I mean is, does this fall under the category all "things are lawful to me but all things are not expedient?"
Meaning that here in America and in other countries polygamy or a man with multiple wives is immoral and does God honor that custom? I take the stand of Genesis, God only made Adam 1 wife, where as He permitted and allowed multiple wives, it cause contention and strife in the home, which could have been avoided.

Do you understand my question? Anyone is free to answer this not just Theo-Minor or DaveW.



Nick_Drake -> RE: Concubines (6/18/2009 9:31:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nick_Drake

Many are of the conviction that, like divorce, polygamy was allowed because of the hardness of men's hearts. Which I think you agree with, whether you realize it or not. For as you said...

We now have the tenderness of heart to understand God's original plan of 'one man and one wife for life' as explained to us by Jesus himself. That was God's original intention for marriage from the beginning but because of hardness of heart the OT saints were allowed to violate that original plan and intention.
So you think that the Book of Hebrews was written to unbelievers? If that were so the book would not quote Psalm 95:

"Today if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts..." (Hebrews 3.8, 3.15, 4.7)

In 1 Tim 5.8 Paul tells about a man who will not provide for his house having denied the faith. Sounds pretty hard to me. We all know those who are harsh legalists. Whole denominations are based on harsh legalistic doctrines.

New Covenant believers can be JUST as hard hearted as their OT counterparts.


There are those of us, like iwillfearnoevil, who can discern the heart of God in what Jesus said about marriage and divorce that includes 'one man, one woman for life':
quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
...it's very clear that God originally intended monogamy, Jesus reinforced that...


It is this very ability and capacity to discern God's truth in this matter that was not generally available to the saints of old. This increased depth and discernment of God's heart came with the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant. God made concessions to men before this ability and knowledge came into the world.

Of course believers harden their hearts. The point is we are held to a higher standard of expectation now because of the greater revelation of God's will that is in the world now because of the work of Christ. There are other examples in the Bible of our increased responsibilities because of New Covenant spiritual enlighenment. The Bible points out how much worse it is for us who have this increased capacity for understanding if we harden our hearts. That principle can be seen in these passages...

Heb. 10:29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


Acts 17:29-30
29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.


Romans 3:25
He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished...


The question you have to answer for yourself is, "if hardness of heart was the reason God overlooked divorce in the OT (for example), why is it not an excuse now if we can be just as hard hearted as they were?"



Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI