help please with Jer 17:9 (Full Version)

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watchman2c -> help please with Jer 17:9 (6/17/2009 10:53:09 PM)

I would like to know what you think the work "heart" means in Jer 17:9 please. I am writing a book on attaining greater spiritual maturity and have am including a section in which I am using this verse. I'd like to know if others generally accept my definition of the mind. Thanks, Rev Alan



bolt. -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (6/17/2009 11:08:23 PM)

Aside from what one can learn from the usual Hebrew lexicons, most of what we understand about 'heart' in Jer 17:9 has to be based on what we learn about the specific usage of the same word in 17:1, 5 and 10.

Verse 5 specifically reminds us that 'the heart' is volitional, probably seen as the seat of the will... meaning it can not be seen as subconscious or purely emotional. Verse 10 reaffirms this, showing the heart (along with the mind) as the source of conduct and/or deeds.

What verse 1 contributes is the understanding that this seat of the will is permanently marked by sins of the past, and it raises the possibility that perhaps such 'engraving' would have continued effects over conduct etc. (or it might just mean that the record is permanent before God). This understanding might support the reasoning as to why one would say that a heart so-marked would be 'beyond cure'. However, Jeremiah goes on to ask for healing, so perhaps there is an element of 'nothing is impossible for God' here too.

Now, if we get into lexical information, we need to see the details of the conjugation of the noun as well as it's meaning. Something is reminding me that the word might be more literally referring to guts/bowels? Or is that Greek? I can get back with that information if there's enough interest to warrant my effort.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (6/17/2009 11:17:52 PM)

This text is aimed at the unrighteous, or should be understood as the heart of the unrighteous.

Pick your new testament text...the heart that is deceitfully wicked..Romans chapt 1. where man leaves God and becomes and idolator, then degrades, then degrades, then degrades...until they manifest the wrath of God against them in their own self destructions. Romans chpt 2, where the hypocrite, the religious man who knows Gods will, does not do it. The truth is upon their lips, but the truth is absent from their hearts. Romans chapt 3 where Paul concludes both Jew and Gentile under sin, not only under sin, but bankrupt of righteousness, empty of true seeking, vain and wicked in their thoughts, there is no peace for the wicked.

Of course Paul is only borrowing from various Psalms that say the identical thing to readers a thousand years before.

Who can know such a heart? The spirit of man knows whats in man, same as the Spirit of God searches the deep things of God. But the depth of corruption is a bottomless pit. New inventions to sin, new ideas to preserve self, new plans and processes in order to exploit others. Every gift of God is twisted to serve self and alienate God.

This is the enmity of the heart, this is the rebellious nature, this is the living enemy within our own breast.

Now, those who are born of God, the saved and redeemed of the Lord, do not have such a heart, They do not own a heart of stone, or a heart of wickedness, They own a heart that is given to them of God and they have been made a new creation in Christ.

John



Nick_Drake -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (6/17/2009 11:18:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: watchman2c

I would like to know what you think the work "heart" means in Jer 17:9 please. I am writing a book on attaining greater spiritual maturity and have am including a section in which I am using this verse. I'd like to know if others generally accept my definition of the mind. Thanks, Rev Alan

Jer. 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?


The heart is the seat of a person's wants and desires. We humans seem to think that any attractive desire that moves our heart must be good--and by extension, because we perceive them as good, must have come from God who gives good things. That's the danger of trusting in our deceitful human desires that live within our hearts.


Hebrews 3:13
But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.



Eutychus -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (6/19/2009 8:44:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bolt.
Verse 5 specifically reminds us that 'the heart' is volitional, probably seen as the seat of the will... meaning it can not be seen as subconscious or purely emotional. Verse 10 reaffirms this, showing the heart (along with the mind) as the source of conduct and/or deeds.

What verse 1 contributes is the understanding that this seat of the will is permanently marked by sins of the past, and it raises the possibility that perhaps such 'engraving' would have continued effects over conduct etc. (or it might just mean that the record is permanent before God). This understanding might support the reasoning as to why one would say that a heart so-marked would be 'beyond cure'. However, Jeremiah goes on to ask for healing, so perhaps there is an element of 'nothing is impossible for God' here too.

That is also my understanding. The "heart" as used in biblical times (the will and character of a person) was not the way we use it today (almost purely emotional). Understanding that difference sheds tremendous light on the meaning of many verses.



jn1010lf -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (6/22/2009 3:22:10 PM)

Hello watchman2c

I think the problem with this verse is that it describes the heart of man when left to its own resources. It can be trained to believe anything, if there is a vacuum inside and propaganda is used skillfully.

However, when the knowledge of God and the work of the Holy Spirit are applied, a man's life is changed from darkness to light.

I heard an alarming fact this morning. It is that most people have no knowledge of the Word of God, even many that call themselves Christians. Thus, such person's hearts are open to any systematic propaganda against the knowledge and will of God.



Phulish -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (6/29/2009 4:30:18 PM)

Is see "heart" here as the ego or that part of us which begins at conception and inherits the human-ness passed on from our parents. We also have the deposit or spirit from God that most people don't uncover fully in their lifetime which survives after death. This is why he says there is no cure for the heart. There absolutely isn't as far as it's human make-up goes although we can receive specific healing. The only solution is to discover, nurture and identify with the part of us that's of God.



doinkdom -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (6/30/2009 2:20:07 PM)

basic rule of thumb:
bible verses that mention heart is usually talking about our mind and how we think. What goes in our hearts (minds) comes out of our mouths.

emotions are more impactful and referred to as bowels - feeling something deeply in our bowels.



Chrio -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/1/2009 5:25:20 PM)

Greetings in Jesus!

In Jeremiah 17:9, the Hebrew word 'Leb' shortened form of 'lebbab' is used. It refers to the physical heart, which is the center of our being. This is not our mind but our nature which is wicked thru and thru w/o Jesus! We are 3 part beings: spirit, soul(mind) and body. The highest part of us is our spirit. We are spiritually dead until the point we are 'born-again' in the spirit man.

Saved or not, we are spiritual beings with a mind and in a body. The unregenerate man is who Jeremiah is prophesying to, therefore he says the center of man (the heart) being dead spiritually, is amazingly deceitful (above all things)! The dead unregenerate spirit of a man w/o Jesus ... anyone remember what we were like before Jesus took the throne of our life?


regret looks back, worry looks around but faith looks up to where our help comes from ...



judahwarrior -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/1/2009 5:34:57 PM)

Jeremiah 17:9 "The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is?" (New Living Translation)

My Bible tells me that in verse 10 God knows the secret motives but will reward people in accordance to what our action deserve.



Eutychus -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/1/2009 5:36:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chrio
In Jeremiah 17:9, the Hebrew word 'Leb' shortened form of 'lebbab' is used. It refers to the physical heart, which is the center of our being. This is not our mind but our nature which is wicked thru and thru w/o Jesus!...

I disagree. In Jewish imagery, the "heart" was the will and character of a person.

The three parts Jesus said we are to love God with: all our heart, mind, and soul.



Chrio -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/6/2009 6:20:41 PM)

Greetings in Jesus!

With all due respect: How does the Hebrew word for heart, mean "heart, mind & soul"? If you will, you can find that there are distinct Hebrew words for each of these 3 english words.

Also, the character & will of a person are both found in the mind of a person. If you read the Septuagint (greek Old Testament) the greek word for mind 'psyche or psuche' is used to translate 'soul'. Which is the root of our words: psychology, psychiatry etc.

Much different and much different meaning from heart. The mind(soul) is the seat of our intellect, will & emotions.

Just an extra $.02 I found laying around.



regret looks back, worry looks around but faith looks up from where our help comes from ...



seagullplayer -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/7/2009 1:40:20 PM)

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

“Trust your heart” is worldly advice, trust in God and His precepts.


Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/20/2009 12:50:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: watchman2c

I would like to know what you think the work "heart" means in Jer 17:9 please. I am writing a book on attaining greater spiritual maturity and have am including a section in which I am using this verse. I'd like to know if others generally accept my definition of the mind. Thanks, Rev Alan



Greetings

Well your definition was unclear as to how you’re using it in your book... ??

But in general it has nothing to do with a contradiction when used as such... so as to relate Jer 17:9 ; to the changed heart of the born again...of those baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.




LG



Elena1030 -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/20/2009 3:49:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chrio

Greetings in Jesus!

With all due respect: How does the Hebrew word for heart, mean "heart, mind & soul"? If you will, you can find that there are distinct Hebrew words for each of these 3 english words.

Also, the character & will of a person are both found in the mind of a person. If you read the Septuagint (greek Old Testament) the greek word for mind 'psyche or psuche' is used to translate 'soul'. Which is the root of our words: psychology, psychiatry etc.

Much different and much different meaning from heart. The mind(soul) is the seat of our intellect, will & emotions.

Just an extra $.02 I found laying around.



regret looks back, worry looks around but faith looks up from where our help comes from ...


Hmm... interesting, Chrio.

My understanding was/is as follows...

that the Greeks and Hebrews viewed things differently. The Hebrews looked at the entire person as a soul (body, mind, and spirit) -- nephesh, if I remember correctly. It was the Greeks who compartmentalized the aspects of human existence.

And... the Hebrews didn't know about the brain. They thought the heart was the seat of the will and the intellect. The emotions they thought were in the bowels.

So... yeah, you're gonna see a bit of disconnect when looking at the Greek OT vs. the Hebrew OT. I think.




watchman2c,

I suggest you consult some Hebrew scholars on the matter.



Chrio -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/21/2009 1:06:36 AM)

Greetings in Jesus,

Blessings to you Elena,

Actually there is no disconnect (all Scripture is connected) but the Greek just helps to bring clarity and understanding, because God knew we would have trouble trusting our bowels. (i couldn't help but LOL as i wrote that) Everything God did to bring us to the Word as we have it today, was to bring us closer to a better understanding of Him and His kingdom.

I should point out that the Greek OT was written by 70(where it gets its name) Jewish scribes (scholars) as Alexander the Great was making his empire (world) all Greek. So we can trust their taking of their own Hebrew language and bringing it into the Greek language. Just another way to see God's hand in preparing His Word for His people! God is so Good!!!



regret looks back, worry looks around but faith looks up from where our help comes from ...



Elena1030 -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/21/2009 10:47:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chrio

Greetings in Jesus,

Blessings to you, Elena,

Actually there is no disconnect (all Scripture is connected) but the Greek just helps to bring clarity and understanding, because God knew we would have trouble trusting our bowels. (i couldn't help but LOL as i wrote that) Everything God did to bring us to the Word as we have it today, was to bring us closer to a better understanding of Him and His kingdom.

I should point out that the Greek OT was written by 70 (where it gets its name) Jewish scribes (scholars) as Alexander the Great was making his empire (world) all Greek. So we can trust their taking of their own Hebrew language and bringing it into the Greek language. Just another way to see God's hand in preparing His Word for His people! God is so Good!!!



regret looks back, worry looks around but faith looks up from where our help comes from ...


See... that just shows how much I know (very little!!). [8D]

Thanks, Chrio. [:)] You've helped piqued my intellectual curiosity to the point that I realize *I'm* the one who needs to consult more Hebrew scholars! [:D]
Not sure if you're familiar with Beth Moore, but I admire her greatly... and she has studied under several scholars of Hebrew, for years now, as part of her own study of the Word and to prep for writing the Bible studies she has had published... I'm thinking I'd like to do something along the lines of what she's done -- do informal study w/ those who really know Hebrew... (and maybe Greek too).

So... that's kinda what I was pointing at for watchman2c... not that the Septuagint was faulty. Just wanted to clarify! [:)]

And blessings to you, dear brother! [:D]


edited to fix a grammar goof



Chrio -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/22/2009 3:50:37 AM)

Greetings in Jesus name

Elena, I would recommend studying Greek. Primarily because there is both a Greek OT & NT. If you only study Hebrew, you will only have access to OT, in an old world language.

See i thought i was broke ... and there i just found another $.02!!! [8D] God is Good!!

Blessings.



regret looks back, worry looks around but faith looks up from where our help comes from ...



bolt. -> RE: help please with Jer 17:9 (7/22/2009 8:52:53 AM)

OH! Study both!

Greek is precise and clear for God's revelation and instruction... but Hebrew is just mind blowing as a chosen language for revealing the depth of the character of God.



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