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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/8/2009 1:45:30 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
No where does it call these offices. God says they are gifts and that is what they are.
They are not desired by man, God gifts them.
Where as with overseers and deacons
Pastor = overseer = shepherd = elder
They are the same thing.
The teachers are also elders.
1Ti 5:17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
Peter identifies himself as an elder and clearly teaches the word.
1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/8/2009 3:15:03 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
DaveW Date 7/8/2009 1:45:30 PM
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
No where does it call these offices. God says they are gifts and that is what they are.
They are not desired by man, God gifts them.
Where as with overseers and deacons
Pastor = overseer = shepherd = elder
They are the same thing.
The teachers are also elders.
1Ti 5:17 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.
Peter identifies himself as an elder and clearly teaches the word.
1Pe 5:1 Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,
Yes they can have more than one gift or they can have a gift AND and office. But the ones we are talking about are gifts NOT offices and it is God who does the choosing.
And They are not equal to each other in the respect you are talking about. If that were so, then women could be elders because they are called to teach the younger women and children. But according to some, women can't be elders.
Working hard at preaching and teaching IS exercising their gifts in the office of overseer.
Get my meaning?
I hope so.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/8/2009 4:54:23 PM
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7over6
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Wow so is the big discussion / hangup over the english word office? I just use it because it keeps things from being confused with the spiritual gifts.
Did the Pentecostals or some group just invent the use of the term offices and start using it? I know it is not in the scripture and that those 5 abilities are gifts from God to man- Apostolic headship, Teaching, Prophetic operations, Pastoring, and Evangelizing. They seem to be more like callings and services one person does.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/8/2009 7:31:54 PM
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gmcspice
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7over6 I agree that they are callings of service for the equipping of the saints. Men have elevated them to offices. God does the choosing on these just as he chose David to be King and the prophets to be PROPHETS, God chose John to be the Herald of Christ and so on. Just like He chose Esther to save her people. God is the one who does the choosing not man. And God will place the talent there himself when he forms you. Then when You call to him and when He says it is time he will let you know that that is your purpose of service for HIM and HIS glory.
Many confuse them with the offices of deacon and overseer because men who choose these offices also have the gifts that God gives to teach and pastor, apostle, prophet and evangelist. But rest assure that you do not have to serve in the office of overseer or deacon to have these gifts or use them.
This I believe is the confusion. That you have to have office to serve God with these gifts. God does not say you have to serve in either of these 2 offices to use the gifts given by him.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/8/2009 9:24:12 PM
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yohannan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
Is there a way to really tell when a person has these gifts?
Are they revealed to the person by God first then given confirmation by others that God reveals to them?
Just to clarify, I am one that believes God still gives these gifts to people. I believe they are still viable today.
Why do people call them "offices" instead of "gifts"?
I was taught that they are service gives not offices of authority per say.
A gift can be a temporary or situational conference and an office is one that is specifically called to uphold duties this gifting for the purposes of Ministry to the edification of the Body and General Welfare of the Spiritual Health of peoples. But the gift is The Spirit welling up to eternal life and fruits that remain in lasting Work. For Jesus said not to work for this food only, but for The Bread of Life which feeds many.
For surely, Moses and Elijah did not begin with the level of outpouring in The Spirit that was latter conferred upon them in their Ministeries. For one must endure certain things, at times, and ask for things of The Kingdom of God is written.
Remembering the parable of the unfaithful manager, one can be called and then later removed like Balaam the false prophet, and Saul.
Like unto an other duties one must remain in the upholding in the Vine to attain the reward for that office. For when The Son returns He will reward each person according to what had been done, if that what was done was done through God and by God and in God, the Work will remain to The Father's glory that one produces good fruits in ones life.
Be fruitful and multiply and increase on the earth and subdue the earth. The beast from the earth is written. These are the disciples that are truly disciples that among are those who have overcome their Spiritual situations and other occurances in the world to attain to the next, the better Country.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/9/2009 6:42:49 AM
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DaveW
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This is the first list of offices to which God appoints men:
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
The phrase "appointed in the church.." is what makes them offices. He also gives a heirarchy of decending authority. This list is both gift and office, as is the similar list in Eph 4.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/9/2009 8:29:51 AM
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gmcspice
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1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
Okay, Dave W. Lets actually look at how this verse is worded.
It says - God appointed in the church.
This tells us right here they are gifts.
Then it gives the order that God gives the gifts.
Now, see the word administrations this is where offices come in. the offices being Overseer, deacon, and treasurer, etc.
So, like I said they are gifts for service but men have raised them to offices of authority. That is not what Gods word says or means.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/9/2009 10:43:57 AM
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DaveW
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So you are saying that an apostle has no authority?
I see all kinds of apostolic authority being exemplified all thru the NT. From the writing of the gospels by Matthew and John, Paul's protoge Luke and Peter's protoge Mark to apostolic decisions being handed down in Acts 15, to the apotolic letters that make up the rest of the NT.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/9/2009 12:08:53 PM
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gmcspice
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No that is not what I am saying, DaveW.
There are different types of authority. There is man's and there is God's. God's is a gift and without God's giving it, it is nothing but dust in the wind.
The Apostles had authority given by God, and we as Christians knowing God's word have the same authority. Having them as offices is like saying, I am better than you or I am higher than you when that is NOT what God meant. Even Paul addresses that he speaks not of himself that he himself has no authority at all. But in Christ he does.
Paul says ALL are equal in Christ none setting over the other. Man has lifted these gifts to mean opposite of what God intended them to mean.
This is why they are not offices but gifts to men from God to lift up God and prepare the Saints, not to lift themselves.
Calling them offices when God doesn't refer to them in the manner you think is lifting up the man not God.
I believe that this is alos the reason we have so many "leaders" in the church body that are not humble, meek and lowly. They are prideful and vain thinking it is about them when it isn't.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/9/2009 1:45:58 PM
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DaveW
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I think we are not using the same definition of office.
Paul had great authority. He could set doctrine (and did). He could command people to get along (and did). He could tell children to obey their parents, wives to submit to and respect their husbands, congregants to submit and obey congregational leadership and congregational leadership what to teach and do. Yes, he also taught that we are all equal before the Lord. Both positions are true.
Any position or gift can be a source for pride and "overlordship." Abuse does not negate the validity of the position, no more that spousal abuse negates the validity of marriage.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/9/2009 2:24:24 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
Paul had great authority. He could set doctrine (and did). He could command people to get along (and did). He could tell children to obey their parents, wives to submit to and respect their husbands, congregants to submit and obey congregational leadership and congregational leadership what to teach and do. Yes, he also taught that we are all equal before the Lord. Both positions are true.
That is the thing. You see it as Paul having authority. I see it as God working through Paul. Paul said he was not an authority unto himself. THis means without God he was nothing and without God gifting and choosing him he would have been nothing.
1 Corinthians 3
4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers (servants) by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
Look at how Paul address himself. He never said he himself had any authority But GOD.
That is why I say they are not offices set over anyone. They are not offices. They are gifts of servitude to the Church body and God gifted by God.
The reason why I object to these being called "offices" by men is because we humans have a tendency to get puffed up. God doesn't want that either. the only offices I have ever seen listed in the Bible is overseer and deacon. And they are administration positions. I believe we may be saying the same thing just in different way.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/9/2009 2:57:45 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
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so you don't view the role of Pastor as an office?
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/9/2009 5:51:04 PM
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7over6
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I guess I never got hung up on this subject like some apparently do. Just because I used the popular term office I never insinuated that they chose the gifting and pursued it with school / carrier etc. I thought it was assumed that people understood God gave gifts, callings, anointing etc. but I guess that is to big of an assumption
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 7:32:20 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
so you don't view the role of Pastor as an office?
No, I don't. God said to pastors to feed his sheep. This is a place of service and servitude. Not an office.God does the choosing when it comes to these. It is not meant to be a full time job in the way we see a full time job and it is not meant to be something you are paid a wage for.
I believe a man can be an Overseer with the gift of teaching, or evangelist, and so on. But these gifts by themselves, they are not offices.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 8:27:24 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
Okay, Dave W. Lets actually look at how this verse is worded. It says - God appointed in the church.
This tells us right here they are gifts. Actually, it does not. The word for appointed is: τίθημι
Strongs defines it thusly:
G5087 A prolonged form of a primary word θέω theō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate): - + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.
I see nothing in here that says "gift." A person gets appointed, placed, etc in an office.
An office is a position in the congregation.
It sounds to me like you have either had some very bad experience with someone who has abused their authority or have gotten ahold of very bad teaching about church structure.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 9:46:09 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Actually, it does not. The word for appointed is: τίθημι
Strongs defines it thusly:
G5087 A prolonged form of a primary word θέω theō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate): - + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.
I see nothing in here that says "gift." A person gets appointed, placed, etc in an office.
An office is a position in the congregation.
It sounds to me like you have either had some very bad experience with someone who has abused their authority or have gotten ahold of very bad teaching about church structure.
Good point DaveW, another place that many folks get confused is;
(Eph 4:11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(Eph 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Because of the Word "Gave" many take Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors and Teachers to be the gift of Apostles etc.
But Christ 'Gave" those folks to the Church for the perfecting of the Saints, etc.
There is no gift of Pastor etc., but the Pastor etc. are a gift to the Chruch.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 9:48:18 AM
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ta_mosquito
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To me, "office" means "role" or "place" or "position" - it does not mean "exalted position" or "lordly place." It is conferred by God OR man; the word has no connotation either way.
gmcspice - you seem to imply that "office" means something exalted or lofty, something grabbed or seized by the person holding that office, as opposed to simply... well, a role or place or position.
Am I reading your posts correctly?
People scoff at definitions and getting them agreed upon, but in this case, I really think that's where the disagreement lies.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 9:50:00 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
Okay, Dave W. Lets actually look at how this verse is worded. It says - God appointed in the church.
This tells us right here they are gifts. Actually, it does not. The word for appointed is: τίθημι
Strongs defines it thusly:
G5087 A prolonged form of a primary word θέω theō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate): - + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.
I see nothing in here that says "gift." A person gets appointed, placed, etc in an office.
An office is a position in the congregation.
It sounds to me like you have either had some very bad experience with someone who has abused their authority or have gotten a hold of very bad teaching about church structure.
Greetings,
quote:
It sounds to me like you have either had some very bad experience with someone who has abused their authority I
I believe you may have had it right that first time..
The problem many times that I have noticed ...locally... is the system of appointments does not necessary reflect an anointing, which is typical of the world...
For example... many times we all deal with a customer service rep in some form or another.. And what I have noticed with the majority is that the world always seems to place the most “NON people persons” into those positions… and in like manner when the Church does the same..
Its a bit sad ..
Actually!
LG
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 11:47:01 AM
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gmcspice
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quote:
The problem many times that I have noticed ...locally... is the system of appointments does not necessary reflect an anointing, which is typical of the world...
For example... many times we all deal with a customer service rep in some form or another.. And what I have noticed with the majority is that the world always seems to place the most “NON people persons” into those positions… and in like manner when the Church does the same..
Its a bit sad ..
Actually!
This is exactly what I am talking about. Some who get the position but are not anointed to have it by God.
The anointing is the gift from God.
We can't just go out and say that is what we want to do. My argument is also with those who say they aren't gifts at all. None. Leading to the problem we are discussing right now. Apointing without the anointing(Gift of God).
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 1:02:18 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
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appointments to what gmcspice? if there are no offices, how is there any appointing?
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 2:50:20 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
appointments to what gmcspice? if there are no offices, how is there any appointing?
Appointing is done by God. God gives the gift and that person provides a service. They are not in charge as the word office implies.
By the way, I did answer this question in my last post.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 3:00:46 PM
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ta_mosquito
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I don't see "office" as implying being in charge. Difference in connotations, I guess.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/10/2009 7:03:21 PM
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gmcspice
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I do see it as "being in charge". Like holding the office of the Presidency. I think that is why there is so much confusion. Some see the word as I do, while others don't.
I see them as gifts. No one can teach God's word without God gifting him with understanding and ability to teach, and so on.
BUT we have many that do and think they should. I believe that is why we have so many false teachers and prophets, etc. That is why I think calling them offices is bad. It cause too much confusion as to what being those things in Christ really means.
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/13/2009 2:49:48 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
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there is plenty of authority that comes with being a Pastor and other leadership offices ...
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RE: Offices or gifts? - 7/13/2009 3:22:32 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
iwillfearnoevil Date 7/13/2009 2:49:48 PM
there is plenty of authority that comes with being a Pastor and other leadership offices ...
They are not leadership offices. They are postions of servitude. And the only authority they have is spreading the word of God..The gospel. Other than that they have none accept what God gives them.
See, this is the problem I have with it. they are NOT authority as the world says only as God says. By putting worldy definition to them, it causes people in those postions to get puffed up instead of being humble servants like Christ says to be.
They are to be of service to the Saints not lifted up over them.
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