Offices or gifts? (Full Version)

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gmcspice -> Offices or gifts? (6/19/2009 9:19:59 AM)

Ephesians 4:11-12

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Are they offices or gifts from God?



rcjames -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/19/2009 9:32:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

Ephesians 4:11-12

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Are they offices or gifts from God?


The offices of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are gifts to the Chruch.

Thanks
RC



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/19/2009 9:35:14 AM)

Thank you RC.
I was told in another thread that they weren't gifts.
But in every version of the Bible I have researched so far (about 6) It says that they are gifts from Christ for the equipping of the saints.
I wonder why some think they aren't gifts and why would some get this confused?



rcjames -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/19/2009 9:43:22 AM)

Probably because they are thinking that "Pastor" would be a gift to the person, but when we consider the Pastor to be a gift to the Church for the Chruch's edification and growth; it looks considerably different.

Also there is a segment of folks out there that deny any gifts listed in the New Testament are still viable today. They are mainly concerned about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, but just to be sure of thier very weak position; they deny all gifts.

Thanks
RC



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/19/2009 10:01:08 AM)

Is there a way to really tell when a person has these gifts?
Are they revealed to the person by God first then given confirmation by others that God reveals to them?

Just to clarify, I am one that believes God still gives these gifts to people. I believe they are still viable today.

Why do people call them "offices" instead of "gifts"?
I was taught that they are service gives not offices of authority per say.



blue1914 -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/19/2009 10:33:57 AM)

I do know that I was told (I do believe) by the Lord that I was one of those "5 fold" ministry positions.

While I am blessed by what He told me and I now see Him putting that into operation in my life, it was Him alone who told me and showed me what I was.

I would trend toward the "gift" for that fact alone-that I didn't choose it, I didn't even ask for it per se, I was just TOLD that's what I was and was to do and He alone has begun to move me to a place where I can operate in it. Not that it is not WELCOME in my life-I see now that He made me to be that and since He alone holds the master plan, He will utilize what He has given me as He sees fit.



rcjames -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/19/2009 3:41:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

Is there a way to really tell when a person has these gifts?
Are they revealed to the person by God first then given confirmation by others that God reveals to them?

Just to clarify, I am one that believes God still gives these gifts to people. I believe they are still viable today.

Why do people call them "offices" instead of "gifts"?
I was taught that they are service gives not offices of authority per say.


I do not believe that a person has the gift of apostle, Pastor, etc. I believe that the office is a gift to the Church.

Scrpture is plain that one can desire to be in the office (and thus become a gift to the Church);

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

And nothing in the requirement fot the office speaks to gifts, just to being a Christian;

(1Ti 3:2) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

(1Ti 3:3) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

(1Ti 3:4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

(1Ti 3:5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

(1Ti 3:6) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

(1Ti 3:7) Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

The gift is the office to the Church, not a gift of Pastor (or whatever) given to a man.

Thanks
RC



Bluethread -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/19/2009 4:51:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Also there is a segment of folks out there that deny any gifts listed in the New Testament are still viable today. They are mainly concerned about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, but just to be sure of thier very weak position; they deny all gifts.

Thanks
RC


I feel your pain. That seems to be the case with some regarding the gifts Adonai provides in the rest of the Scriptures also.



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/30/2009 3:20:38 PM)

quote:

I would trend toward the "gift" for that fact alone-that I didn't choose it, I didn't even ask for it per se, I was just TOLD that's what I was and was to do and He alone has begun to move me to a place where I can operate in it. Not that it is not WELCOME in my life-I see now that He made me to be that and since He alone holds the master plan, He will utilize what He has given me as He sees fit.


I believe 100% that this is how God works.
Look at some of the prophets. Jeremiah thought he was too young.
And Paul! He hunted down Christians before God called him.

quote:

Also there is a segment of folks out there that deny any gifts listed in the New Testament are still viable today. They are mainly concerned about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, but just to be sure of their very weak position; they deny all gifts.


I agree 100%.
Maybe because God hasn't given them HIS mission for them. I was told that if God hasn't given it, then you should pray and ask what God would have you do.



LoyalGypsy -> RE: Offices or gifts? (6/30/2009 8:41:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

I wonder why some think they aren't gifts and why would some get this confused?



Because if they don't have it... it doesn't exisit...[;)]



applemom -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/1/2009 6:13:17 PM)

Hmm, interesting, I wonder if it is the idea that pastor, teacher, deacon, etc are occupations, therefore offices; while gifts are qualities?

I wonder what the word 'office' meant in years past?

Thinking of the term daily office, meaning to take time to pray/meditate/get in touch with God.



7over6 -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 6:27:53 AM)

Yea the offices can be considered gifts to the church but not to be confused with Spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12. Maybe spiritual gifts are gifts to the individual believer who is empowered by the Spirit.

God will in some ways naturally train a person in there office throughout there life. And if they are living for God and busy in the church God will open doors to them so that they can use there offices and abilities. Assuming the church is operating correctly of course. I know God has done this to me numerous times and they usually come out of no where and are unexpected.



DaveW -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 7:18:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:

I wonder why some think they aren't gifts and why would some get this confused?
Because if they don't have it... it doesn't exisit...[;)]
[sm=thumbsup.gif] BINGO!!! We have a winner!



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 7:33:25 AM)

quote:

Yea the offices can be considered gifts to the church but not to be confused with Spiritual gifts in 1 Cor 12.


Not confusing the gifts at all. And the offices actually are gifts because Ephesians says they are gifts. I believe the gifts given in 1 Corinthians 12 are for all and they support the gifts given in Ephesians.
So they aren't "offices" they are gifts from God to individuals to equip the saints of the church to do the work of God.



DaveW -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 7:36:39 AM)

Actually they are both gifts and offices.

There are 5 lists of gifts in the NT with at least 2 of those lists including offices.



7over6 -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 7:46:21 AM)

gmcspice I agree with what you said, I just wish there were more accurate words in english to deffrentiate things. I completely agree that the spiritual gifts support the offices.



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 8:46:32 AM)

DaveW,
they aren't offices at all but gifts given to men for the perfecting of the saints. Offices implies that someone is in charge when actually they are gifts of servitude.
Here is what Ephesians 4 says about it.
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

It says here that they are gifts.
My question was why do some believe they are offices when God's word says they are gifts?
Those who say they are offices and not gifts are twisting and changing what God's word says.



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 8:51:19 AM)

I know 7over6. I wish there were too. I believe that that is part of why people get these mixed up with offices.
The only way to differentiate is to go by what God's word says.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 9:35:03 AM)

How do you define "office"? Maybe that needs to be the starting point.



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 10:56:26 AM)

From what I have read in the Bible, there are only two offices. That is an overseer, and a deacon.
Listed in 1 Timothy chapter 3.
The rest are gifts.
It seems that the offices of deaon and overseer are different from the gifts of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

1 Timothy 3 says

1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

13For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

While Ephesians 4 says that God gives the gifts, 1 Timothy 3 says that a man can desire in his heart(choose) to be either a bishop(overseer) and deacon.



DaveW -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 11:01:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmcspice

7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[a] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."
The Greek is not neatly rendered here. A more literal telling would be "he gave gifts as men," implying that it is the men themselves that are the gift.

To continue the passage:

11It was he who gave some [men] to be apostles, some [men] to be prophets, some [men] to be evangelists, and some [men] to be pastors and teachers,

Having the men themselves as the gifts perfectly fits with the overall understanding of this passage.



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 11:06:54 AM)

But they are still GIFTS, DaveW NOT offices.
They are still gifts given. They are not offices for the service. They are gifts for the service. God gives the gift man does not choose these as they would to be a bishop or deacon.



DaveW -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 11:12:27 AM)

No you are not seeing it.

When God equips a man to fulfil the office of - say a pastor (which is scripturally an elder), He then gives the gift of that man in that office to the congregation to equip and train them.



gmcspice -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 11:17:53 AM)

quote:

When God equips a man to fulfil the office of - say a pastor (which is scripturally an elder), He then gives the gift of that man in that office to the congregation to equip and train them.


No where does it call these offices. God says they are gifts and that is what they are.
They are not desired by man, God gifts them.
Where as with overseers and deacons they are desired by man if they chose. God gives the guidelines for those particular two. But he does not give specifics on the others because God does the choosing just as he did with the prophets in the OT. So, there is a big difference in a man desiring something and God choosing them.



iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Offices or gifts? (7/8/2009 11:38:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: applemom
Hmm, interesting, I wonder if it is the idea that pastor, teacher, deacon, etc are occupations, therefore offices; while gifts are qualities?

I wonder what the word 'office' meant in years past?


i was thinking along these lines too if one is trying to think of differences ... the office of teachers may be gifted to the Church as rc posted ... however that person may not be a gifted with teaching ability ... granted if it really was God putting them in that position, then i'd think they have teaching ability already or to be nourished ...



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