So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (Full Version)

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Covaan_Meshuga -> So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 2:12:55 PM)

Why is it that we claim we are civilized and progressive, that we require equality for all, etc., but women, while being more than half of the population, remain invisible?

It is true that I do most of the grunt-work for my household of two: opening accounts, starting business relationships, paying bills, choosing those we do business with, signing checks, paying for licenses, etc. Why? In order to lighten the load on my husband. But I remain invisible. When we are contacted by many businesses and government agencies, they address everything to him, never to me. My name is clearly on everything, but they still pretend I don't exist. Why does that bother me? Initially because this often makes it very hard for me to take care of business, because I am not recognizable as a person having the authority to do what I must do.

The latest slap in the face occurred when we were victims of a crime. I immediately called the police and stayed up (literally) all night answering the door, answering questions, checking the damage while I made sure my husband got his rest for the busy day he would have.

Then the mail started coming -- to "Mr. P___." Would he like to demand restitution for the damage to our property (technically, which I bought). Would "Mr. P___" like to make a victim statement. Would "Mr. P___" like to appear in court and make a verbal victim statement. And the latest, would "Mr. P___" like to come to the bail hearing. Well, I can choose my own office hours, which he can't, so I would like to come to the bail hearing, at least. So far, I can't go: I am not considered the "victim."

It is no wonder to me that many women become so angry, so out-of-sorts, so frustrated with such things as how they are ignored in certain situations, how they are addressed -- or not addressed at all!

And for me, this is a moral issue. When half of the population does not exist, does not matter, is not considered, it is a moral issue. Ladies, from my point of view, we have not yet attained personhood.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 2:36:15 PM)

I don't want to dis your POV. [&o]

I'm wondering if this is the particular area you're in, or the local culture?

Because I have had the opposite problem. When telling people "That's something I need to discuss with my husband", they find that annoying. One woman even said right out "You live in a free country now, why do you have to talk to him?" "My" mail comes in my name, and I have generally had to specify and repeat multiple times that both dh's and my names are to be on accounts/utility stuff because otherwise they'll just put my name ont he account since I'm the one that called. All our tax stuff comes with both our names on it.

I am sorry you are feeling invisible. {{{Abiyah}}}



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 2:44:07 PM)

It could be our part of the country. I live in Washington state, which thinks it is so progressive, so modern -- so much so that it has some really ridiculous laws -- but we have even received credit cards like this: his said "Mr. K__ P__" and mine said "Mr. K__ P__." Maybe it is our area. Who knows. But it is so aggravating!



steved57 -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 3:11:37 PM)

A couple of thoughts come to mind.

Is the business in both of your names? If it isn't then that might be part of the problem. Often mailing lists are developed by culling business records. If it's possible, get your name on the business, if not as partner (which has tax implications) but as Business Manager.

About 6 years ago my wife and I went car shopping to replace HER car. I might add at this point that she is a Certified Purchasing Agent. One place that we went the Sales Dummy talked to me even though she was asking all of the questions and I was just staring at him. Needless to say, we went with the Sales Person who talked to my wife when she asked a question. Moral of the story: Some people just never learn.



GregandJenny -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 3:25:08 PM)

quote:

It could be our part of the country. I live in Washington state, which thinks it is so progressive, so modern -- so much so that it has some really ridiculous laws


I live in Washington state, over on the Kitsap Peninsula and I just don't agree with your POV. Maybe my situation is different or we have things in our household set up differently but I take of most things and most of them come in my wife's name. I am sorry you are having issues. Maybe you should talk to these individuals and ask some questions.

DO you live on the westside or the East?


G



Jhud -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 3:25:21 PM)

Maybe it's my state, but I look at the people managing the depts and divisions of the businesses I work with, the high school and college graduation classes, and the community leadeship, and it appears to be well over half are women. They certainly don't seem invisible.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 3:34:39 PM)

Reading all this, it probably is my area. A few years ago, I wanted to surprise my husband with a new vehicle, so I went shopping for a few before I told him my thoughts. Some of the dealerships I went to treated me with what I perceived as near disdain, a couple of which I would not return to on a serious bet.

I live on the western side of WA. Does that make a difference regarding how people are treated?

I don't know. It has been a very frustrating few days lately, and it's really not just this. It is a whole pile of stuff, since the shooting, the latest of which is concern over my son's health. Perhaps I should just crawl in a hole for a few days and "wait 'til the sun shines, Nellie." (I have to talk like that now -- I recently turned 60.)



GregandJenny -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 3:39:58 PM)

quote:

live on the western side of WA. Does that make a difference regarding how people are treated?


I think that's odd. I live on the WestSide too and We just don't have that experience.

Could it be how you haver your bills set up?
Who made the 911 calls?

Hmm just running things by you.

I didn't know you lived here :)


G



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 4:22:26 PM)

Howdi, neighbor! :-) Some of the bills are in his name and some in mine. I chose our auto insurance, for example, and always paid it, but he always gets the mail.

It is frustrating because I have a strong sense of privacy, especially when it comes to the mail. If something is not addressed to me, I should not be opening it -- just a bit of an ethics issue with me. So when I get their mail, and other mail addressed similarly, it irks me! I finally just told him that if it looks like a bill, I'll opening it. Sometimes, however, I have received and opened stuff that was none of my business because of their continued (what I call) calloused attitude on this issue. (I guess that is a bit harsh.)

Really, in matters of the world, this is a small issue, but I remain frustrated over not being considered when this case goes before the court.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 4:23:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
Who made the 911 calls?

Oops -- forgot this part. I made the 911 call and stayed up all night with the investigators. He did make one of the later calls when he heard automatic fire, which I did not recognize.



GregandJenny -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 4:37:06 PM)

quote:

I chose our auto insurance, for example, and always paid it, but he always gets the mail.



I think there could be alot of reasons for this. Who is listed first when you signed up for the insurance. Things seemed to be addressed to the primary person or the person listed first on the account.

Dunno about the 911 thing though.



GroupW -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 4:38:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

It could be our part of the country. I live in Washington state, which thinks it is so progressive, so modern -- so much so that it has some really ridiculous laws -- but we have even received credit cards like this: his said "Mr. K__ P__" and mine said "Mr. K__ P__." Maybe it is our area. Who knows. But it is so aggravating!


Dry side or wet side? The two are so different, they should be in separate parts of the country.



Bluethread -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 4:43:20 PM)

With the social revolution that has taken place in this country, it is difficult to know what "the rules" are anymore. One woman stands and looks at you until you open the door, while another might get upset if you do so. One woman wants ito be called Ms. another Mrs. and a third by her maiden name. Just yesterday Barbara Boxer made a big thing about it when a military officer addressed her as Mam. This is drilled into the military mind in boot camp and is standard throughout the services. This confusion has lead most people to just go with the flow. However, there are a few that make something of it. If we were to adopt a standard that would be helpful. However, the easily offended and those with an ax to grind will complain no matter what.

Now, I am not saying you do not have a legitimate greivence. However, in my opinion, it is the fact that we are living in 2009, following a time of great political unheaval, that is causing all of the confusion.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 6:03:27 PM)

When it's all said and done, sometimes this is a convenience issue, and sometimes, it is a pride issue.

However, there's more. The person I am supposed to talk to, to get permission to come in, is out of the office until Wednesday, the day of the hearing. I left a message on the voicemail of the one taking her place, and she has not called me back to tell me if I can go to the hearing. I tried sending them a fax, but they haven't gotten back to me re that. I tried calling again, and before they even talked to me, they laughed and hung up. I called back and they put me on hold with music that was so loud that I had to hold the phone out. The music kept repeating itself, and eventually, the phone hung up. I finally got through to someone who was filling in for lunches, and while she was very nice and handled it well, she could not connect me to anyone because no one was taking any calls.

I just need to get over it, let it go.

G-d remains good, and my little frustrations are indeed "little" in comparison with other things.



sue244 -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 6:14:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

With the social revolution that has taken place in this country, it is difficult to know what "the rules" are anymore. One woman stands and looks at you until you open the door, while another might get upset if you do so. One woman wants ito be called Ms. another Mrs. and a third by her maiden name. Just yesterday Barbara Boxer made a big thing about it when a military officer addressed her as Mam. This is drilled into the military mind in boot camp and is standard throughout the services. This confusion has lead most people to just go with the flow. However, there are a few that make something of it. If we were to adopt a standard that would be helpful. However, the easily offended and those with an ax to grind will complain no matter what.

Now, I am not saying you do not have a legitimate greivence. However, in my opinion, it is the fact that we are living in 2009, following a time of great political unheaval, that is causing all of the confusion.


And that is why I think the feminist movement has done way more harm to women then they have helped women. Of course for me anything that even hints of feminism makes me see red because I don't see the point in acting like a perpetual victim just because I'm a women, nor do I see that since giving women the right to vote its has done anything to help women in anyway. I just glad that the guys that I hang out with were raised to be gentelmen, they hold the door open for me, hold my chair, etc. Also if I was married it wouldn't really bother me for things to come in my husbands name since everything is united, or should be the name on the bill shouldn't matter.



prolifepj -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/19/2009 6:47:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga Reading all this, it probably is my area. A few years ago, I wanted to surprise my husband with a new vehicle, so I went shopping for a few before I told him my thoughts. Some of the dealerships I went to treated me with what I perceived as near disdain, a couple of which I would not return to on a serious bet. I live on the western side of WA. Does that make a difference regarding how people are treated? I don't know. It has been a very frustrating few days lately, and it's really not just this. It is a whole pile of stuff, since the shooting, the latest of which is concern over my son's health. Perhaps I should just crawl in a hole for a few days and "wait 'til the sun shines, Nellie." (I have to talk like that now -- I recently turned 60.)


No ma'am- no holes for you!

*story*
Dad works in the oil field off shore. A few years ago, he and a few of his remaining crewmen were left on a rig during a hurricane. Long story short- he couldn't leave so his 15 yr old truck sat in salt water for 12 hrs. When the company called about it he said, "I'm not even going to talk to you, I'm going to let my WIFE talk to you." Waaallllllll, they ended up giving dad a new truck, 10 Xs as nice as the one he had AND a few other things.....this was after their big corp lawers had determined to only cover the worth of the lost vehicle, which as you can imagine wasn't so much. Not only that, they agreed to do the same for the others. No attorneys necessary... just she who hath VOICE!

I too wonder if its your locale... was sort of like that in MS.



Bluethread -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/20/2009 12:41:50 AM)

Well, here on what has been called "the dry side" or I should say the dry middle of washington, women are treat approriately to there attitude. It is pretty wild west out here. For example, a woman and her husband had their cars impounded because niether had a valid license and neither of the two cars they had were properly licensed either. This woman played the victim very well. Since we were are required by the state to identify the owner of an impounded vehicle and receive there approval before releasing anything from the vehicle, we could not help her right away. She brought on the tears and even used her baby as leverage. We let her have her diapers but it took a day or two to locate the legal owner of the vehicle, who had given it to the woman but failed to report the sale. Well long story short she finally got the things from the vehicle. At that time her attitude was quite different. Living out here in the wilderness, we learn to quickly determine when we are being played. Therefore, at least in this part of Washington, if you act like a lady or gentleman, you are treated as such. If you act like child, you are treated appropriate to that state. People here generally speak to the one who is speaking to them.



Focusing -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/20/2009 9:05:53 PM)

Going through a divorce as the woman is interesting to say the very least. Even though I made the higher income, even though I was the one who took care of all the bills, even though I was the one who negotiated all the financial and insurance business in our household ... I was the one who was ignored and taken off the accounts, I was the one who was told that I had to have the new insurance policy - nevermind the fact that it was MY policy in the first place (for several years) and that I added my husband to it after we were married, and nevermind the fact that he wasn't staying with the insurance company thereby causing the policy to become abandoned. [&:]

You are correct ... even in the 21st century woman are still treated as nothing. It is beyond ridiculous.

I can completely understand why so many of my female friends insist upon keeping separate accounts when they get married. I don't agree, but I understand.



Reform_Dave -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/20/2009 11:46:14 PM)

I can empathize for how you feel on a human level. But you act as if the Lord takes no notice of what you do. Are you trying to please men for accolades?. Do you not see that the only one you should be pleasing by your efforts is indeed pleased by them. Let those who are content with the praises of fellow men enjoy them now. The Lord sees and makes note of what you do, He will reward you sister!



bolt. -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/21/2009 9:19:14 AM)

In my experience (Canada) the bills etc. all come to the first name listed on the account. Sometimes that's me, sometimes him, depending how it was set up. The gov't addresses each of us as individuals, and does its business as if we were not married at all. If I need to do things on his behalf, such as insurance, he has had to call in and authorize it.

As for the police, it seems that the property damage issues would have to do with the legal owner of whatever had been damaged. Are you actually on-title for that particular item? Or for the land (which might be separate from the house)? Perhaps this is a reminder that if you consider things joint property, perhaps it is not such a matter of convenience to have it just in his name.

Credit cards come to the one who signed the application/agreement, and adding a 2nd card holder can be a process -- perhaps he just ordered an extra card for your use because it was easier that way.

To me, this is not a matter of not respecting women, it's a matter of not respecting the concept of marriage. The laws do not respect the idea that what belongs to a husband has been wholly given over to his wife as an equal, nor vice-versa. It is not assumed -- it has to be actually enacted in each case. So we deal with that. We don't expect the world to do it for us.



pruned -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/21/2009 8:12:58 PM)

I totally understand how you feel, CM.

A few years ago, I lived in another state. My mechanic had told me to buy a new car. So, my husband & I went shopping. The sales people would not talk to me, although I was the only one who test drove. I filled out the paperwork; I traded in my vehicle; I paid for the new one. It was ordered. The dealership called my husband to tell him it had arrived. At his work. He was out of town on business, but I did get the message. When I went to pick it up, the dealership didn't want to release the vehicle to me. They omitted my name from the title, and we had to re- title the vehicle. I'll stop there, although the list goes on.

More recently, I went to a car dealership with my son to pick up a car he had found on the internet. We drove about 6 hours to arrive at their location. We walked in, the salesperson shook my son's hand as he introduced me. I extended my hand, the sales associate looked at me, turned around and walked away.

Maybe I'm invisible in car dealerships? [&:]

quote:

Are you trying to please men for accolades?. Do you not see that the only one you should be pleasing by your efforts is indeed pleased by them.


From what I can tell, this post has nothing to do with our experience. It is not as much a matter of pride, it is a matter of being able to do business. That being said, like any customer, a modicum of respect would be well received.



Focusing -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/21/2009 8:25:39 PM)

I agree with pruned's last paragraph. It's frustrating to try to handle the family's business when the person you are dealing with (man or woman in my experience) doesn't want to talk to you for the simple fact that you are the *wife* ... as if being the little wifey is nothing but a position of nothingness. It has nothing whatsoever to do with pleasing men, but rather everything to do with simply dealing with life as it comes up. I have developed the attitude that if someone doesn't want to deal with me because I'm a woman, well, I certainly don't need to give them my business. Not a problem for me. May be a problem for the person who just lost a customer when their supervisor comes over and asks why I'm leaving. I have no problem expecting another person to accept responsibility and/or repercussions for their actions. Being disrespectful to a customer, or potential customer, based on their sex is bad business all the way around.



fallenstar -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/22/2009 2:07:56 AM)

I hate to say it, but that is what you sacrifice by getting married. The husband is seen as the head of the household, the alpha, the dominant male. When a woman marries, she is agreeing that he will be in charge. It is "natural" if you consider that animals do this too. I am not saying I agree with it. I am saying that you must be careful about what choices you make in life, and be aware of what your rights are and what they will be in the future.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/22/2009 8:04:28 AM)

All of this is totally opposite my experience.[&:]

People expect me to do things without my dh. They act shocked when I tell them he takes care of such-and-such, not me, or that he knows more about it than me.

He has always been careful to have my name on assets, and if my name is on it, all related mail is addressed to both of us. In fact, because I'm the one that deals with utilty bills and stuff, it's always a hassle to put both our names on the accounts, since their default is to just use the name of the person who made the original call to set up the account.



browneyes222 -> RE: So 2009 is half over, and women are still invisible (6/22/2009 9:26:30 AM)

If I am at the mechanics they will speak totally different to my husband than they do me, if I am looking at major household appliances they will often look at addressing my husband more and when we are at a car dealership looking to but another vehicle the saleman will start off with more focus on my husband as well. Not always, but in most cases this is what happens. However, in all of these circumstances they learn quickly that I am the one who is going throw out a 101 questions, negotiate the price, finance end of it etc. and I will rake through the contract. Then, when it is all said and done we both together will make a decision as to get something done or purchase something new. We both will reach an agreement or nothing will happen. My husband encourages me to do what I do and says I ask things he never thought of and believes I get better deals than he does in the end.

So, in some circumstances the woman will be looked over and the man will be more acknowledged. It may be 2009, but it's the way it goes sometimes.



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