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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/26/2009 2:29:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
quote:
You are certainly entitled to your opinions also.
See what I mean by slapping someone down. Never mind, I can take it.
But I fear that there are some on these Forums new to their walk with the Lord and comments such as yours may well jolt them away.
Please use the zeal of Peter and the kindness of Christ.
I am sorry mvic, but I do not get your point.
I say that you have a right to your opinion, I do not argue with that opinion, and you say I am slapping you down.
Please explain.
And while you are at it, would please state whether you would use the sanctuary and all the Churchy trappings to do a funeral for a person who has rejected Christ?
Thanks
RC
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/26/2009 3:29:24 PM
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mvic
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Ok ... let's not continue the discussion regarding slapping down. Perhaps I was mistaken in taking your comments as a rebuke.
Regarding funerals.
I believe the dead are dead. Their fate as to where they go rests with God not with us.
The funeral service is primarily for the benefit of family and friends; some of whom may be believers, some may have other faiths, and some no faith at all.
So yes - I would let them use the church, have flowers and candles around the coffin if they wish, sing whatever hymns and music they wish. I would accompany the coffin to the graveside and pray there too.
However, UNLESS I KNOW the deceased was a Christian I would not comment on where he was headed to. If he were a non-believer, or a reprobate as you call him, I would aim the sermon/speech to those living and present in the church, whatever their beliefs, and use this opportunity to tell them about God, His love for us, and how we can get to know Him better. I would not even mention where the deceased is headed. If asked directly I would say this is a matter for God and not for me to decide. Which, after all, is the truth.
Please don't misunderstand this next bit: a funeral service is a great opportunity to recruit new believers to Christianity. Let us not miss this opportunity.
Out of the death of one we may well lead others to everlasting life.
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/26/2009 6:00:23 PM
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TheTartanTammy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
RC said, "(And by the way I would take being compared to Peter as a compliment, but I fall far far short)."
Really! How can you fall short of being a sinner?
Cute jab TartanTammy,
I of course was refering to my service to God as compared to Peters.
And by the way, Peter was a sinner, who was saved by grace, and became a Saint.
So you would use the sanctuary for a funeral service for the reprobate.
Interesting.
Thsnks
RC
If by the sanctuary you mean the building we worship in, then yes I would. My understanding is that no-one can be saved unless God regenerates them by His Spirit, so if that is the case how can they reject Christ if they were dead in their sin when they died? (see Eph 2: 1 - 10)
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/26/2009 6:38:02 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
RC said, "(And by the way I would take being compared to Peter as a compliment, but I fall far far short)."
Really! How can you fall short of being a sinner?
Cute jab TartanTammy,
I of course was refering to my service to God as compared to Peters.
And by the way, Peter was a sinner, who was saved by grace, and became a Saint.
So you would use the sanctuary for a funeral service for the reprobate.
Interesting.
Thsnks
RC
If by the sanctuary you mean the building we worship in, then yes I would. My understanding is that no-one can be saved unless God regenerates them by His Spirit, so if that is the case how can they reject Christ if they were dead in their sin when they died? (see Eph 2: 1 - 10)
Thank you.
A reprobate rejects Christ while they are alive.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/26/2009 6:45:30 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Regarding funerals.
I believe the dead are dead. Their fate as to where they go rests with God not with us.
The funeral service is primarily for the benefit of family and friends; some of whom may be believers, some may have other faiths, and some no faith at all.
So yes - I would let them use the church, have flowers and candles around the coffin if they wish, sing whatever hymns and music they wish. I would accompany the coffin to the graveside and pray there too.
However, UNLESS I KNOW the deceased was a Christian I would not comment on where he was headed to. If he were a non-believer, or a reprobate as you call him, I would aim the sermon/speech to those living and present in the church, whatever their beliefs, and use this opportunity to tell them about God, His love for us, and how we can get to know Him better. I would not even mention where the deceased is headed. If asked directly I would say this is a matter for God and not for me to decide. Which, after all, is the truth.
Please don't misunderstand this next bit: a funeral service is a great opportunity to recruit new believers to Christianity. Let us not miss this opportunity.
Out of the death of one we may well lead others to everlasting life.
I agree with everything you said with one exceptioon, I feel using the Pastor in the Sanctuary and all the Churchy Christian trappings can well lead unlearned folks to conclude that the Church and the Pastor believe that the deceased is in Heaven. And for some that can lead to a false security in thier ungodly lifestyle. Which will only drive them farther away from listening to the truth.
The sadness of the family, and the presentation of the Gospel can well be taken care of at the funeral home, or as far as the Gospel; really well taken care of at the gravesite.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/26/2009 7:03:54 PM
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mvic
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quote:
I feel using the Pastor in the Sanctuary and all the Churchy Christian trappings can well lead unlearned folks to conclude that the Church and the Pastor believe that the deceased is in Heaven.
I agree ... you are right. The problem with refusing to bring the coffin into the church and not allowing the Churchy Christian trappings could/would allienate the family and they would view the action as being totally un-Christian and un-forgiving.
You don't win either way.
Say for instance, as in my previous example, one partner in a marriage is a Christian from your church, and active one at that, and the other partner is from another religion. If your church member asks you to carry out a funeral in church for their deceased non-Christian partner, it would be difficult to say: I'll attend the graveside but I will not let him enter my church.
A pastor always walks a tight-rope and it is very difficult to be kind and understanding whilst at the same time hold on to basic Christian principles and not dilute the Word in any way.
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/26/2009 7:11:34 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
Say for instance, as in my previous example, one partner in a marriage is a Christian from your church, and active one at that, and the other partner is from another religion. If your church member asks you to carry out a funeral in church for their deceased non-Christian partner, it would be difficult to say: I'll attend the graveside but I will not let him enter my church.
yes, and a lot of things that a Pastor has to say are difficult to say.
Thankfully I don't see that happening in my congregation for the couple of folks that I have with lost spouses would not ask for the Church.
I did a funeral like this last year, it was at the graveside; the family was ministered to, the Gospel was preached, and a couple of folks who attended started coming to our Church.
you are correct it is difficult, but where does one draw the line. I have a SBC Pastor freiend who rented out thier facilities to some folks for a wedding; the reception turned into a drunken bar fight; and they are still suffering the consequneces of that fiasco. All I know to do is try to do as Scripture indicates and to be very very consistant with the decisions that I reached.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/26/2009 7:17:38 PM
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mvic
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quote:
All I know to do is try to do as Scripture indicates and to be very very consistant with the decisions reached.
That's right. A pastor may not be perceived as doing the right thing in the eyes of folks down here on earth; but as long as he does what is right in the eyes of God is all that matters.
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 3:14:51 AM
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TheTartanTammy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
RC said, "(And by the way I would take being compared to Peter as a compliment, but I fall far far short)."
Really! How can you fall short of being a sinner?
Cute jab TartanTammy,
I of course was refering to my service to God as compared to Peters.
And by the way, Peter was a sinner, who was saved by grace, and became a Saint.
So you would use the sanctuary for a funeral service for the reprobate.
Interesting.
Thsnks
RC
If by the sanctuary you mean the building we worship in, then yes I would. My understanding is that no-one can be saved unless God regenerates them by His Spirit, so if that is the case how can they reject Christ if they were dead in their sin when they died? (see Eph 2: 1 - 10)
Thank you.
A reprobate rejects Christ while they are alive.
Thanks
RC
So, if you are asked to take the funeral of a stranger, how can you possibly know whether they;
a. Rejected Christ whilst still alive.
b. Ever came under conviction of God's Spirit allowing them to repent?
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 3:39:59 AM
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TheTartanTammy
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To RC;
I believe that a danger for the Christian (esp pastors), is to have too high a view of the church buiding. My understanding is that 'church' is about people and not about buildings, we are each God's temple.
So, having said that, correct me if I am wrong, but you refer often in your posts about the 'sanctuary' in relation to not holding funerals for reprobates, yes?
I may be wrong, but I do not recall the NT church meeting in sancturies, in fact I believe that they met in each others houses, and probably had funeral services alien to our culture.
Therefor when we conduct funeral services, no matter the location, it is us that is the sanctury (living stones) and not the building that we happen to be in at that moment.
God indwells us, not buildings. Therefore I humbly suggest that a funeral service can be held for anyone anywhere, providing God is honoured in the proper preaching and teaching of His word irrespective of who is in the coffin or in the gathering.
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 3:42:16 AM
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TheTartanTammy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
quote:
All I know to do is try to do as Scripture indicates and to be very very consistant with the decisions reached.
That's right. A pastor may not be perceived as doing the right thing in the eyes of folks down here on earth; but as long as he does what is right in the eyes of God is all that matters.
Amen, amen and amen!
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 4:52:17 AM
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Memaw.
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I wonder if the clergy who are bickering in this thread know how badly their witness is being damaged? Do they even care?
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 5:20:44 AM
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TheTartanTammy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Memaw.
I wonder if the clergy who are bickering in this thread know how badly their witness is being damaged? Do they even care?
Important theological and doctrinal points, in my opinion, are being discussed on this and other threads. We have this treasure in jars of clay, but we are jars of clay nonetheless!
If I wasn't happy with the way the discussion was being handled I would withdraw, I am sure the moderator would also intervene if it wasn't to his/her liking.
But thank you for your observation.
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 5:46:58 AM
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mvic
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quote:
We have this treasure in jars of clay
I use glass jars because I find clay porous and some of the messsage leeks away!
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 6:07:09 AM
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TheTartanTammy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
quote:
We have this treasure in jars of clay
I use glass jars because I find clay porous and some of the messsage leeks away!
I think that we are leaky vessels!!!!
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 7:29:48 AM
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IwillseekHim
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This has been most interesting to follow and read the different thoughts and opinions. I just wonder if Patricia has 1.) conducted the funeral, if so, how and 2) is she coming back to fill us in.......
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 8:46:46 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
So, if you are asked to take the funeral of a stranger, how can you possibly know whether they;
a. Rejected Christ whilst still alive.
b. Ever came under conviction of God's Spirit allowing them to repent?
If one of my Church members asks me to do a funeral for someone I am not familiar with, I find out where they went to Church, and contact the Pastor (Elder, leader),to ask them if they would like to do the funeral or participate in anyway; and at that time and inquire about the deceased's life.
I also inquire into the person's life from the member that ask me to do the funeral about the person.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
I believe that a danger for the Christian (esp pastors), is to have too high a view of the church buiding. My understanding is that 'church' is about people and not about buildings, we are each God's temple.
So, having said that, correct me if I am wrong, but you refer often in your posts about the 'sanctuary' in relation to not holding funerals for reprobates, yes?
It is not about the "Importance" of the Church building; it is about giving the impression to a lost and dying world that the obvious lifelong reprobate deceased sinner is being sent to Heaven by the Church. Now that false assumption would not be made by seasoned Christians, but to the unlearned it certainly will. So then they may walk away with the idea that all one has to do to get to Heaven is be sure they have a Chruch funeral when they die.
To the deceased christian, whether they have a funeral in a Church or whether they have a funeral at all does not matter; it is the witness of the Believers that matter.
Just as Churches are not to give creedence to unrepentant sinners (paul says to put them out of the Church), I do believe that having a full blown Christian funeral in a Church for an obviously lost deceased gives the impression that it is ok to live a life of rejecting Christ.
quote:
I may be wrong, but I do not recall the NT church meeting in sancturies, in fact I believe that they met in each others houses, and probably had funeral services alien to our culture.
i think the case may be make that the NT Church met in homes, synagogs, in public, and in Churches. But I think more importantly what does the New Testament say about burying the reprobates;
(Mat 8:22) But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their dead.
I really thinik we all give way more value to a "Funeral" than Scripture does. As a mattere of fact the NT says nothing about funerals except the above quote, but the Scripture does say that Church is for Saints.
As for me personaly, I have requested that no funeral be done when I depart.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 3:53:34 PM
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TheTartanTammy
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RC said, "As for me personaly, I have requested that no funeral be done when I depart."
So, what happens to the remains, and what about the emotional needs of your loved ones?
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Isa 40: 11
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 4:03:34 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
RC said, "As for me personaly, I have requested that no funeral be done when I depart."
So, what happens to the remains, and what about the emotional needs of your loved ones?
My remains will be place in the local cemetary by the funeral home.
As for the emotional needs for my family, Church folks, and other loved ones; their emotionasl need are met on a continuing basis. When graduation day comes for me, they will just rejoice, carry on with the ministry, and look forward to joining me in Heaven.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 4:05:00 PM
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TheTartanTammy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
RC said, "As for me personaly, I have requested that no funeral be done when I depart."
So, what happens to the remains, and what about the emotional needs of your loved ones?
My remains will be place in the local cemetary by the funeral home.
Thanks
RC
Will family be allowed to attend?
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 4:07:41 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Will family be allowed to attend?
Well I will not be around, but I would expect that they would honor my request and not be there. I would that there last image of me here on earth, be preaching, or playing with the grandchildren, not watching some box with decaying remains being lowered into the ground.
Cause I won't be there.
Thanks
RC
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/27/2009 10:42:37 PM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Will family be allowed to attend?
Well I will not be around, but I would expect that they would honor my request and not be there. I would that there last image of me here on earth, be preaching, or playing with the grandchildren, not watching some box with decaying remains being lowered into the ground.
Cause I won't be there.
Thanks
RC
No, you won't be there. But, those who made connections to you will. And, I personally find it very selfish to ignore their needs as human beings that God has created to build mental bonds that are shattered in death.
Again, I hear from you a statement that sounds S-O-O-O Spiritual and Biblical, yet completely and utterly denies compassion to those you leave behind. If you will recall, the Bible says in Ex 13:19 that Moses took Joseph's bones with him as he left Egypt. And, Hebrews 11:22 uses this as example of FAITH.
And, how you could have missed this one I will never understand.
Acts 8:2
Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him.
You see, it wasn't reprobates that mourned deeply for Stephen. It was Godly men. Men that knew he would be resurrected because Jesus rose. They STILL mourned because they had made a connection with him in this life and that connection was broken. A person that cannot make those connections might have trouble understanding that others can.
The writer of Acts didn't ridicule these Godly men for their mourning and neither did Jesus ridicule Mary and Martha at the tomb of Lazarus. In fact we are told that Jesus was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. That is because both the writer of Acts and Jesus were able to connect with the feelings of others. Not everyone can.
If life and death are all about us... then, you are right... why have a funeral since YOU won't be there. But, if life and death is about OTHERS as well as ourselves, then perhaps taking that mourning process away from them just might be a little bit on selfish side.
Otherwise, Acts 8:2 could have read, "Godly men flushed Stephen down the toilet like a dead goldfish and went on about their business." 
Fortunately, there is still time to reflect on the feelings of others rather than trying to get that one last act of control in right to the very end.
< Message edited by TMeeks -- 6/28/2009 12:19:11 AM >
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/28/2009 1:52:04 AM
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bunbud
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After reading the entire thread, I have a couple of questions:
1. What if the "reprobate" lived his life outside the will of God but before death accepted God as his/her personal savior.
2. What is the purpose of the "church"?
3. What is your calling?
I will answer these questions in my terms.
1. As a minister of the Gospel my role is a fisherman. I am to draw non-believers to Christ. I either plant a seed or water the seed, but God causes it to grow. The bible says that people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Just because they attend "church" does not mean that they are saved. Just because we believe they are "reprobates" does not mean that they do not know God.
2. The purpose of the "church" is to seek and to save those who are lost. We are losing too many with our holier than thou attitudes. The bible says I beseech you brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your reasonable act of service. Be not conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
God's word changes people, not our holier than thou attitudes. How can we expect change from sin to God if we don't accept all.
3. My calling is to do the will of him that has sent me. I am the church. I must carry the gospel wherever I go.
I said all of that to say that funerals are stressful for families. My church/Pastor has had to deal with many tragic deaths in our congregation (siblings killing each other, dismemberments). Each service is a time for us (Christians) to reap a harvest that we did not sow. If we preach Christ and Him crucified that is the beginning and the end. It is not about lying to the family. It is about what thus said the Lord. I agree to one of the posters. The funeral is really not about the deceased. They have already had their judgement.
I hope that as ministers of the gospel we do not forget who called us and what He called us for.
Be blessed
Bunbud
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/28/2009 3:27:34 AM
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TheTartanTammy
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Thanks bunbud for your summary. I agree. My personal experience tells me that my mother became born again just hours before she died in hospital. What a Saviour!!!!!
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RE: Reflection for a Funeral - 6/28/2009 3:28:56 AM
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TheTartanTammy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheTartanTammy
Will family be allowed to attend?
Well I will not be around, but I would expect that they would honor my request and not be there. I would that there last image of me here on earth, be preaching, or playing with the grandchildren, not watching some box with decaying remains being lowered into the ground.
Cause I won't be there.
Thanks
RC
No, you won't be there. But, those who made connections to you will. And, I personally find it very selfish to ignore their needs as human beings that God has created to build mental bonds that are shattered in death.
Again, I hear from you a statement that sounds S-O-O-O Spiritual and Biblical, yet completely and utterly denies compassion to those you leave behind. If you will recall, the Bible says in Ex 13:19 that Moses took Joseph's bones with him as he left Egypt. And, Hebrews 11:22 uses this as example of FAITH.
And, how you could have missed this one I will never understand.
Acts 8:2
Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him.
You see, it wasn't reprobates that mourned deeply for Stephen. It was Godly men. Men that knew he would be resurrected because Jesus rose. They STILL mourned because they had made a connection with him in this life and that connection was broken. A person that cannot make those connections might have trouble understanding that others can.
The writer of Acts didn't ridicule these Godly men for their mourning and neither did Jesus ridicule Mary and Martha at the tomb of Lazarus. In fact we are told that Jesus was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. That is because both the writer of Acts and Jesus were able to connect with the feelings of others. Not everyone can.
If life and death are all about us... then, you are right... why have a funeral since YOU won't be there. But, if life and death is about OTHERS as well as ourselves, then perhaps taking that mourning process away from them just might be a little bit on selfish side.
Otherwise, Acts 8:2 could have read, "Godly men flushed Stephen down the toilet like a dead goldfish and went on about their business."
Fortunately, there is still time to reflect on the feelings of others rather than trying to get that one last act of control in right to the very end.
Glad you got in with a response before I did!!!
_____________________________
TheTartanTammy
Isa 40: 11
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