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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/24/2009 10:01:25 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 1755
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
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Say, then, in the United States, your parents are illegal immigrants who brought you with them as a baby. You grow up with a girl of similar status, and at about 20 years old, you realize you've been in love forever and want to be married.
You've got 4 choices: (1) Forget about her and remain celibate forever. (2) Go and get a marriage licence and thus reveal the presence of both your whole families, instigating possible deportation for all, and probably get told you can't have a marriage lisecne anyways. (3) 'Deport' yourselves and go to try and make a way for you both in one of your's birth countries, of which you have no memories, and probably have no proper papers for either. (4) Go to your pastor, whom you've known for years, and ask him if he thinks there is any way that God might honour a true marriage between you, even though you can't get a licence, and ask him to officiate.
It's a tough call -- but I'm not sure that option (4) is the same as just plain shacking up and hoping God doesn't make a big deal out of it. It might be a possibility, in some cases like that.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/24/2009 10:10:15 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1542
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
I cannot say that an undocumented marriage is in and of itself is sin. .
I am speaking of in the United Stater here;
Larry do I understand your postion correctly; that two folks can just move in with each other have sex and you do not think that is a sin?
Where I come from shacking up is fornication.
Thanks
RC
No. If two people who are honest with the preacher and all the other Christians who witness it, a ceremony to live with each other for life before God and community is not sin just because they don't sign a license. However, it sounds suspicious to me that people are unwilling or unable for some reason to document it. There is waaayyyy too much room for deception if they do it. Suppose one party has implicit trust in the other but later discovers a genuine legal marriage happened previously. Or, suppose one of them marries legally later. What is to hold them to it legally? Nothing, apparently.
Sometimes, the law holds us accountable in ways that our word cannot. An undocumented marriage gives too much chance for unaccountability.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/24/2009 10:30:55 PM
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GrahamCracker
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My understanding is that years ago when Texas was Spanish/Mexican territory, Anglos (presumably Prostestant) found themselves in a position of being married "in the eyes of God" without recognition of Spanish authorities who were Roman Catholic. Priests were few and far between and Anglos did not take too kindly to Catholicism. This may have been the origin of common law marriage in Texas. I don't know. I remember a newspaper story where a couple were married and authorities (Mexican or Spanish, I don't know) were required to witness them together "abed." Without getting too gritty, two people side by side in bed together were presumed to have consummated the marriage.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 12:41:01 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
- There's no law that says you must have a governmental marriage license. Therefore, getting married by a pastor, in front of witnesses, and announcing you're married is OK in my opinion. No sin there.
I must post my disagreement with you on this one.
The Pastor does not "Marry" the couple; the pastor only "Officiates" the ceremonial part. The marriage is made legal by the license issued by the State, and the subsequent filing of that completed and signed license in the Court. That is what makes it legal.
No license, no legal marriage, so in my opinion the couple is committing fornication, and the Pastor that preformed the ceremony without a liscense is aiding and abetting that fornication, and will have to answer to God for it.
Thanks
RC
Your assumption here the marriage must be a "legal marriage" before it is Biblical marriage is erroneous. Unless you can cite for me a verse from either the NT or OT which states, unequivocally, the ONLY kind of acceptable marriage is considered a "legal marriage," a marriage in which the couple has a marriage license issued from the state, then no marriage occurs at all.
I do not think you will find such a verse. In fact, in the marriage custom of the Jews in the OT and NT did not involve any formal recognition by any civil authority in order for the couple to be "married" and neither Jesus, his followers, or the apostle Paul condemn this Jewish custom as Biblically "inadequate." It seems to me, then, Biblically speaking, a couple can be married without any formal legal recognition of the state. There is no Biblical mandate of any formal legal recognition for a couple to be married.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 12:58:35 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Edit to add: the longer I think about this, the more I think that I am wrong.  Here in Canada (or is it just Ontario?), you can legally get married without a license by having the banns read in church. Come to think of it, that may be the only provision outside of a license, and the States don't have that provision. So... I could very well be wrong.
ta_mosquito. I did not realize that you were from Canada; so we may very well both be correct.
Some states here in the USA recognize common law marriage, but this in only after a length of time (7 years in some states) of living together and presneting themselves as man and wife.
The legality covers only from the time it is declared, not retroactive to the time they started shacking up.
So they would be living in sin (fornication) until it became legal.
Or at least that is the way I see it.
Thanks
RC
What verse can you provide in which a couple must conform to the legal meaning of marriage before it is marriage in the eyes of God?
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 1:03:10 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
What verse can you provide in which a couple must conform to the legal meaning of marriage before it is marriage in the eyes of God?
Well shucks, you might try these;
(Ro 13:1) Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
(Ro 13:2) Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
(Ro 13:3) For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 1:04:23 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dbark
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
- There's no law that says you must have a governmental marriage license. Therefore, getting married by a pastor, in front of witnesses, and announcing you're married is OK in my opinion. No sin there.
I must post my disagreement with you on this one.
The Pastor does not "Marry" the couple; the pastor only "Officiates" the ceremonial part. The marriage is made legal by the license issued by the State, and the subsequent filing of that completed and signed license in the Court. That is what makes it legal.
No license, no legal marriage, so in my opinion the couple is committing fornication, and the Pastor that preformed the ceremony without a liscense is aiding and abetting that fornication, and will have to answer to God for it.
Thanks
RC
I definitely agree that a pastor does not "marry" a couple, only officiates the ceremony - where I think our opinions differ is that I believe that means that it is God's domain alone to join a man and woman and make them one flesh (in a spiritual sense - not sexually).
While I have a traditional (legal) marriage and am very happy with my choices, I see no reason to believe that the government has some role in preventing me from committing the sin of fornication. God joins a couple and they are married - whatever the gov't thinks of that - I couldn't care less.
Marriage certificates are nothing but paper. If a man and a woman truly make a promise - a covenant - to one another and to God to be faithful to each other till death, then in my mind they are married and a marriage ceritficate and big expensive church wedding adds nothing but formality and ritual to that covenant.
Obviously, it is the covenant that makes you married and not the certificate.
I agree only to the extent of your post expressing the point one can be Biblically married, by this I mean in God's eyes the couple is married, without any formal legal recognition of the marriage. In fact, the Jews, under Moses and from the time of Moses through Jesus and the apostle Paul, had marriages without any formal legal recognition, and never did Jesus, a prophet, or the apostles condemn this Jewish marriage custom as Biblically or Godly "inadequate."
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 1:13:26 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
What verse can you provide in which a couple must conform to the legal meaning of marriage before it is marriage in the eyes of God?
Well shucks, you might try these;
(Ro 13:1) Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
(Ro 13:2) Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
(Ro 13:3) For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
Thanks
RC
Well shucks let's examine each one and expose its limitations.
quote:
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Hmmm....I notice the word "marriage" and "legal recognition of marriage" is missing from this verse. This verse does not express any mandate for a marriage to be officially recognized by the state before God considers it "marriage." Rather, this is a command to obey human government. The two statements are not the same. The flaw is your equivocation of the two. Try another verse.
In fact, for the sake of brevity, this above criticisms are applicable to all the verses you referenced. I asked for a verse which stated in order of a marriage to be one recognized by God the marriage had to be recognized the state, and you give me verses which talk about submitting to human government and authority. I ask for an orange and you give me an apple!
Here is a parallel example of what you just did.
RC: In order for a person to be baptized in the eyes of God, the state must recognize the baptism (this is parallel to your argument of in order for marriage to be recognized in the eyes of God, then the state must recognize the marriage.)
Cynical person: What verses can you provide to me which mandate a baptism is not legitimate for God unless such baptism is recognized by the state?
RC: All those verses which state we should obey human government.
Well, the problem is verses mandating we obey human government says absolutely nothing about baptism being legally recognized before it is considered a legitimate baptism before God.
Now, do you have any verses which are actually on point? As a helpful suggestion, referring me to verses about the rapture, 2nd Coming of Christ, or the beast out of the sea, will be as irrelevant as those verses regarding a general command to obey human government. Do you have something from the Bible specifically stating a marriage is illegitimate to God unless recognized the state, or a verse dealing with marriage as its subject matter where such language stronly infers such an idea?
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 1:26:31 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
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One more point...if legal recognition of marriage is necessary before the marriage is legitimate before God, then why did Jesus, his followers, and the prophets fail to condemn as inadequate the Jewish marriage practice? The Jewish marriage practice did not include any recognition by state authority.
The answer is, as I contend, because legal recognition is not a Biblical requirement for the marriage to be legitimate before God. Let's be careful not to impose requirements for a Biblical institution than those mentioned in the scriptures. There is no Biblical basis for the idea a marriage is not marriage before God unless it is recognized by state authority. Using this reasoning, Adam and Eve were never married, and fornicated, along with the multitude of other married men and women rendered "righteous" in the scriptures, since they were married by Jewish custom, a custom lacking any requirement of state recognition.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 1:41:40 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
Hmmm....I notice the word "marriage" and "legal recognition of marriage" is missing from this verse. This verse does not express any mandate for a marriage to be officially recognized by the state before God considers it "marriage." Rather, this is a command to obey human government. The two statements are not the same. The flaw is your equivocation of the two. Try another verse.
In fact, for the sake of brevity, this above criticisms are applicable to all the verses you referenced. I asked for a verse which stated in order of a marriage to be one recognized by God the marriage had to be recognized the state, and you give me verses which talk about submitting to human government and authority. I ask for an orange and you give me an apple!
Here is a parallel example of what you just did.
RC: In order for a person to be baptized in the eyes of God, the state must recognize the baptism (this is parallel to your argument of in order for marriage to be recognized in the eyes of God, then the state must recognize the marriage.)
Cynical person: What verses can you provide to me which mandate a baptism is not legitimate for God unless such baptism is recognized by the state?
RC: All those verses which state we should obey human government.
Well, the problem is verses mandating we obey human government says absolutely nothing about baptism being legally recognized before it is considered a legitimate baptism before God.
Now, do you have any verses which are actually on point? As a helpful suggestion, referring me to verses about the rapture, 2nd Coming of Christ, or the beast out of the sea, will be as irrelevant as those verses regarding a general command to obey human government. Do you have something from the Bible specifically stating a marriage is illegitimate to God unless recognized the state, or a verse dealing with marriage as its subject matter where such language stronly infers such an idea?
Goodness, Scripture plainly says that we must be obedient to our earthly rulers; so if you want to sanction everybody that wants to shack up and commit fornication; then have at.
you will have to answer for that false teaching, and not me.
So you have your opinion of obeying Scripture; and I have mine.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 1:48:29 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17239
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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ATTENTION PLEASE
In our forums marriage will be defined as follows:
A union between a man and a woman as recognized by state and federal laws. (We do not consider same-gender unions to be marriage in our community.)
Having sex with someone of the opposite gender does not make you married. God calls it sin.
Sustained and forceful arguements to the contrary will be considered a violation of our Terms of Service and may result in further action up to and including a ban from the site.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 3:24:48 PM
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allisonbrett
Posts: 821
Joined: 5/29/2008
From: A bit north of the Big Chicken
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Interesting topic.
I know of a couple who had a pastor "commit" them to each other but not legally. The woman didn't want to lose her social security income from her late husband. They refer to each other as husband/wife but have no marriage license to show for it. I cannot believe an ordained Baptist minister went along with this. Legally they are not married as there is not common law marriage in my state anymore. Morally??? Well, to me its seems like making excuses to have their cake and eat it too.
_____________________________
Allison
A work in progress so please be patient, God is still working on me. Ouch, it sure is painful!
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 3:28:19 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
Hmmm....I notice the word "marriage" and "legal recognition of marriage" is missing from this verse. This verse does not express any mandate for a marriage to be officially recognized by the state before God considers it "marriage." Rather, this is a command to obey human government. The two statements are not the same. The flaw is your equivocation of the two. Try another verse.
In fact, for the sake of brevity, this above criticisms are applicable to all the verses you referenced. I asked for a verse which stated in order of a marriage to be one recognized by God the marriage had to be recognized the state, and you give me verses which talk about submitting to human government and authority. I ask for an orange and you give me an apple!
Here is a parallel example of what you just did.
RC: In order for a person to be baptized in the eyes of God, the state must recognize the baptism (this is parallel to your argument of in order for marriage to be recognized in the eyes of God, then the state must recognize the marriage.)
Cynical person: What verses can you provide to me which mandate a baptism is not legitimate for God unless such baptism is recognized by the state?
RC: All those verses which state we should obey human government.
Well, the problem is verses mandating we obey human government says absolutely nothing about baptism being legally recognized before it is considered a legitimate baptism before God.
Now, do you have any verses which are actually on point? As a helpful suggestion, referring me to verses about the rapture, 2nd Coming of Christ, or the beast out of the sea, will be as irrelevant as those verses regarding a general command to obey human government. Do you have something from the Bible specifically stating a marriage is illegitimate to God unless recognized the state, or a verse dealing with marriage as its subject matter where such language stronly infers such an idea?
you will have to answer for that false teaching, and not me.
So you have your opinion of obeying Scripture; and I have mine.
Thanks
RC
quote:
Goodness, Scripture plainly says that we must be obedient to our earthly rulers; so if you want to sanction everybody that wants to shack up and commit fornication; then have at.
Now, let me be unequivocally clear. The Bible condemns sex oustide of and before marriage. In order for sex to be non-sinful before the Lord, it must be conducted by people of the opposite sex and within and during the institution of marriage and the other person is the marital spouse.
However, this is not what you and I are talking about. I said nothing about sanctioning everybody who wants to shack up and commit fornication. I have not advocated or condoned a couple living together, and having sex before marriage. I know sex outside of marriage and before marriage is a sin, but this is not what we are talking about here. You once again are comparing apples to oranges.
The issue here is your claim the Bible mandates X requirement, where said requirement is legal recognition, before a couple is legitimately married before God. I asked you for verses and you provided me with none. All you provided me with are verses instructing us to obey all human government but say nothing about the requirements of marriage.
quote:
you will have to answer for that false teaching, and not me.
The false doctrine is not anything I have said, as you state above, but your claim the Bible mandates a state recognize a marriage between a man and a woman before God considers such a union legitimate. You cannot cite any verse to support such a contention, which demonstrates you are fabricating here by alleging something is stated in the Bible when it clearly is not.
Now, let me be unequivocally clear. The Bible condemns sex oustide of and before marriage. In order for sex to be non-sinful before the Lord, it must be conducted by people of the opposite sex within the institution of marriage. However, your definition of marriage is one which is not found in any scripture, so to use your phrase, "you will have to answer for this false teaching," a teaching not found anywhere in the Bible.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 3:33:35 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
quote:
Goodness, Scripture plainly says that we must be obedient to our earthly rulers; so if you want to sanction everybody that wants to shack up and commit fornication; then have at.
Now, let me be unequivocally clear. The Bible condemns sex oustide of and before marriage. In order for sex to be non-sinful before the Lord, it must be conducted by people of the opposite sex and within and during the institution of marriage and the other person is the marital spouse.
However, this is not what you and I are talking about. I said nothing about sanctioning everybody who wants to shack up and commit fornication. I have not advocated or condoned a couple living together, and having sex before marriage. I know sex outside of marriage and before marriage is a sin, but this is not what we are talking about here. You once again are comparing apples to oranges.
The issue here is your claim the Bible mandates X requirement, where said requirement is legal recognition, before a couple is legitimately married before God. I asked you for verses and you provided me with none. All you provided me with are verses instructing us to obey all human government but say nothing about the requirements of marriage.
quote:
you will have to answer for that false teaching, and not me.
The false doctrine is not anything I have said, as you state above, but your claim the Bible mandates a state recognize a marriage between a man and a woman before God considers such a union legitimate. You cannot cite any verse to support such a contention, which demonstrates you are fabricating here by alleging something is stated in the Bible when it clearly is not.
Now, let me be unequivocally clear. The Bible condemns sex oustide of and before marriage. In order for sex to be non-sinful before the Lord, it must be conducted by people of the opposite sex within the institution of marriage. However, your definition of marriage is one which is not found in any scripture, so to use your phrase, "you will have to answer for this false teaching," a teaching not found anywhere in the Bible.
The passae I gave you instructs us to obey ths laws, and this forum's guidelines backs it up; Here in the USA one in not married until the State agrees that you are.
Anything outside of that is fornication.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 3:36:38 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1454
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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quote:
However, your definition of marriage is one which is not found in any scripture
He did bring up the point that we are to follow the laws. You cannot choose one scriptural example and ignore another. Both must be true; therefore, where government demands a license, you must get one.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 3:48:44 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: allisonbrett
Interesting topic.
I know of a couple who had a pastor "commit" them to each other but not legally. The woman didn't want to lose her social security income from her late husband. They refer to each other as husband/wife but have no marriage license to show for it. I cannot believe an ordained Baptist minister went along with this. Legally they are not married as there is not common law marriage in my state anymore. Morally??? Well, to me its seems like making excuses to have their cake and eat it too.
Legally, they may not be married but this does not answer the question as to whether God considers them married, a point of distinction I think you were illuminating by the use of the word "Morally" followed by a question mark.
What is missed by many posters here is the state requires, for the purpose of tax benefits, inheritance rights for a spouse, etcetera, that a couple married receive a license from the state, in which the "state" legally recognized the married couple, and thereby bestows upon them all the rights and privileges under state law for married couples. The state does not say, as a matter of right, fact, or practice of religion, a couple married in a church is not "married" and there is no law requiring people who go through a wedding ceremony to be "wed" for them to have their union legally recognized by the state. The "catch" is for the state to legally extend to them marital benefits under state law, they must get a marriage license and have the union recognized by the state.
I say this only because some posters, like RC James, seem to operate under the mistaken idea there are laws mandating those who go through a wedding ceremony, and are wed by a pastor, preacher, etcetera, that they MUST register their marriage with the state in order for the marriage to "exist" at all. This is not correct. In such a scenario, this couple (of the opposite sex I might add) is married in God's eyes.
So much deference is being paid to what the state does as opposed to what the Bible and the Lord says on this subject matter, and it leads to contradictory and hypocritical results. Deferring to the state as to whether someone is legitimately married before God is problematic, as it ignores the following possibilities.
A.) The state says nobody is married. Well, if you following the reasoning of some posters here, then we have a huge problem now, because there will be a lot of Christians fornicating, since the state has refused to recognize any and all marriages. This is but one problem of predicating God's institution of marriage upon state authority.
B.) The state recognizes marriages not Biblically sanctioned. I refer to this instance primarily because the response will be the Bible repudiates X marriage, therefore while the state may sanction such a marriage, it does not make it legitimate before God. So in one instance, they exlcaim state recognition is needed for legitimacy of marriage before God, so long as the state recognition does not violate the Word of God. I agree with the italicized but what would be mystifying in such a scenario is the complete disregard of the fact the Bible does not require anything from the state in order for marriage to exist before God. Ignoring what the Bible says in one context, but relying upon it in another, is inconsistent.
I think there are some instances where two people of the opposite sex can be legitimately married as far as God is concerned, without any action by the state.
It is also interesting and worth observing, our Founding Fathers and Framers of the U.S. Constitution, the God fearing group so many of us revere and refer to as "Godly" men, were ALL married without any marriage licenses. I suppose they were all fornicating sinners? According to the reasoning of some, they were all fornicating sinners, because they were never married, since they never had a marriage license or the state to legally recognize their marriage.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 3:51:06 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
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From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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ORIGINAL: WesP
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However, your definition of marriage is one which is not found in any scripture
He did bring up the point that we are to follow the laws. You cannot choose one scriptural example and ignore another. Both must be true; therefore, where government demands a license, you must get one.
The laws do not require anyone to have a license to be married.
What is missed by many posters here is the state requires, for the purpose of tax benefits, inheritance rights for a spouse, etcetera, that a couple married receive a license from the state, in which the "state" legally recognized the married couple, and thereby bestows upon them all the rights and privileges under state law for married couples. The state does not say, as a matter of right, fact, or practice of religion, a couple married in a church is not "married" and there is no law requiring people who go through a wedding ceremony to be "wed" for them to have their union legally recognized by the state. The "catch" is for the state to legally extend to them marital benefits under state law, they must get a marriage license and have the union recognized by the state.
So his point is, as I said before, misplaced.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 3:53:44 PM
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WesP
Posts: 1454
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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The laws do not require anyone to have a license to be married
Unless the state has a common law statute, a marriage does not exist regardless of what the couple says without that license.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 3:59:33 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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ORIGINAL: rcjames
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ORIGINAL: NotreDame
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Goodness, Scripture plainly says that we must be obedient to our earthly rulers; so if you want to sanction everybody that wants to shack up and commit fornication; then have at.
Now, let me be unequivocally clear. The Bible condemns sex oustide of and before marriage. In order for sex to be non-sinful before the Lord, it must be conducted by people of the opposite sex and within and during the institution of marriage and the other person is the marital spouse.
However, this is not what you and I are talking about. I said nothing about sanctioning everybody who wants to shack up and commit fornication. I have not advocated or condoned a couple living together, and having sex before marriage. I know sex outside of marriage and before marriage is a sin, but this is not what we are talking about here. You once again are comparing apples to oranges.
The issue here is your claim the Bible mandates X requirement, where said requirement is legal recognition, before a couple is legitimately married before God. I asked you for verses and you provided me with none. All you provided me with are verses instructing us to obey all human government but say nothing about the requirements of marriage.
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you will have to answer for that false teaching, and not me.
The false doctrine is not anything I have said, as you state above, but your claim the Bible mandates a state recognize a marriage between a man and a woman before God considers such a union legitimate. You cannot cite any verse to support such a contention, which demonstrates you are fabricating here by alleging something is stated in the Bible when it clearly is not.
Now, let me be unequivocally clear. The Bible condemns sex oustide of and before marriage. In order for sex to be non-sinful before the Lord, it must be conducted by people of the opposite sex within the institution of marriage. However, your definition of marriage is one which is not found in any scripture, so to use your phrase, "you will have to answer for this false teaching," a teaching not found anywhere in the Bible.
The passae I gave you instructs us to obey ths laws, and this forum's guidelines backs it up; Here in the USA one in not married until the State agrees that you are.
Anything outside of that is fornication.
Thanks
RC
Do you practice law? Do you know the laws of the fifty states regarding marriage? I do. I am a lawyer, and you are misstating the law. There is no law in the United States which says, "One is not married unless they receive a marriage license....or the state agrees you are married." No law. None. Your assumption such a law exists, anywhere, is erroneous.
Now, what the state does in fact say is, however, is for some couple to receive X benefits, privileges, and rights as a "married" couple, they MUST A.) be wed by an individual who is notarized or authorized under state law, and recognized under state law, as capable of marrying two people (it does not even have to be a priest, pastor, or any member of any faith, as atheists are married, at times, by an official of the state as opposed to any member of the clergy or any religious faith) B.) provide a signed document by the official (sometimes it must be notarized depending on the jurisdiction), the date, names of the two people, and signatures of all involved and C.) said document must then be filed with the Recorders officer, or other designated government office.
No state law exists which says someone who undergoes a wedding ceremony, in a church, is as a matter of fact, religion, or faith "not married" unless they obtain a license, and such a couple is NOT required by the state to so obtain a marriage license. However, if such a couple wants to receive protection of and benefits of state law regarding married couples, then they must jump through the hoops.
It does not make any sense to make up fictitious laws to accommodate your point of view on this matter.
In addition, I am not contesting this websites meaning of "marriage."
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 4:04:07 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
The laws do not require anyone to have a license to be married
Unless the state has a common law statute, a marriage does not exist regardless of what the couple says without that license.
That is not correct. A distinction must be made and should be made between the state and non-state. By this logic, the state can apparently nullify the very existence of the Biblical institution of marriage by refusing to recognize or acknowledge any and all marriages.
If the state tomorrow said nobody is married, all marriage license previously issued are void, and no marriage licenses will be issued again, and the state will not ever again recognize marriage, then this does not mean they have just eradicated the Biblically created institution of marriage. Marriage was created and given to us by God, just like our salvation, and it cannot be taken away by the state and is not predicated upon anything the state says or does.
The marriage may not exist as a matter of law to the state, but this does not mean it does not exist as a matter of religion, faith, or religious practice.
The institution of marriage was given to us by God, created by God, acknowledged by God, and it is his institution, not the state's.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 4:04:57 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
Do you practice law? Do you know the laws of the fifty states regarding marriage? I do. I am a lawyer, and you are misstating the law. There is no law in the United States which says, "One is not married unless they receive a marriage license....or the state agrees you are married." No law. None. Your assumption such a law exists, anywhere, is erroneous.
Now, what the state does in fact say is, however, is for some couple to receive X benefits, privileges, and rights as a "married" couple, they MUST A.) be wed by an individual who is notarized or authorized under state law, and recognized under state law, as capable of marrying two people (it does not even have to be a priest, pastor, or any member of any faith, as atheists are married, at times, by an official of the state as opposed to any member of the clergy or any religious faith) B.) provide a signed document by the official (sometimes it must be notarized depending on the jurisdiction), the date, names of the two people, and signatures of all involved and C.) said document must then be filed with the Recorders officer, or other designated government office.
No state law exists which says someone who undergoes a wedding ceremony, in a church, is as a matter of fact, religion, or faith "not married" unless they obtain a license, and such a couple is NOT required by the state to so obtain a marriage license. However, if such a couple wants to receive protection of and benefits of state law regarding married couples, then they must jump through the hoops.
It does not make any sense to make up fictitious laws to accommodate your point of view on this matter.
In addition, I am not contesting this websites meaning of "marriage."
Have a nice day.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 5:01:36 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1542
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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RC,
Being a minister, I suppose you would know if it illegal to conduct a ceremony without the couple having a license. Surely we can agree that an undocumented "marriage" cannot not be held to the standards of a "legal" marriage. I can only see Romans 13 is if the state actually forbids the marriage and subsequent setting up of a household as if they were married. With the problem of gay unions, I see that concept as unlikely.
I do agree that any couple entering a union through a ceremony without legal accountability of a license is setting themselves up for serious complications later. Someone doing that smells fishy to me, the more I think about it.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 5:24:13 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2954
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: DwB37
My only question is why aren't the immigration officials at all suspicious of all these marriages between whites and black foreigners.
This is called racial profiling and it is illegal for government workers to take these factors into consideration when evaluating a citizenship application. It may be significant, but it can not be taken into consideration.
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Apparently they don't care,so then why should I?
If someone truly loves their neighbor (from another country) and wants what is best for them and their people. That one should work on taking one's expertice and resources over to the other country and help them build a vibrant community over there. However, this to might be seen as a heavy handed "ugly american" act.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 6:14:40 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC,
Being a minister, I suppose you would know if it illegal to conduct a ceremony without the couple having a license. Surely we can agree that an undocumented "marriage" cannot not be held to the standards of a "legal" marriage. I can only see Romans 13 is if the state actually forbids the marriage and subsequent setting up of a household as if they were married. With the problem of gay unions, I see that concept as unlikely.
I do agree that any couple entering a union through a ceremony without legal accountability of a license is setting themselves up for serious complications later. Someone doing that smells fishy to me, the more I think about it.
It is not illegal to conduct a ceremony without a couple having a license. You are correct to assert an unlicensed marriage is different from a licensed marriage to the extent in one scenario the state officially and legally recognizes one whereas the other one is not officially recognized legally by the state.
However, you illuminated a very good point, a point in which I have been elaborating upon in the last few posts. Predicating marriage, where marriage is an institution created by God, ordained by God, upon a recognition by a non-religious and secular institution as the state is problematic. If acknowledgment by the state is necessary for two people of the opposite sex to be legitimately married before God, then this necessarily means: All those marriages which existed prior to this point were not really marriages. Did you know James Madison, George Washington, Jefferson, and so forth, did not obtain marriage licenses, as they did not exist at this time. This necessarily means Adam and Eve, King David, Solomon, and so forth were not legitimately married. This also means if the state, tomorrow, rescinded all previously administered marriage licenses, refused to acknowledge legally any prior marriages, present marriages, and future marriages, then nobody is married in the eyes of God.
This places marriage, an institution created by the Lord God, subject to human machinations, such as state laws, when Jesus specifically said, in regards to marriage, "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." Matthew, 19:6. To suggest, as RC does, marriage is so subjugated to the state is unbiblical and untenable. Marriage is a union between man and woman, committing each other to one another, solemnly promising to remain to one another, until death, before God and Jesus, and to think the state, somehow, can involve itself in this God created institution in the manner RC suggests is just not correct or Biblical.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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You would be selling yourself for financial gain. You would then be breaking vows made before God after she got her visa. You would be demonstrating to others the hypocrisy of a Christian by doing all of the above, smearing God's name. 
