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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 6:31:54 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
To suggest, as RC does, marriage is so subjugated to the state is unbiblical and untenable. Marriage is a union between man and woman, committing each other to one another, solemnly promising to remain to one another, until death, before God and Jesus, and to think the state, somehow, can involve itself in this God created institution in the manner RC suggests is just not correct or Biblical.
The point you seem to miss is that one cannot be legally married withou a liscense. They can shack up and not break the state's law, but they will be breaking God's law and committing fornication.
It is also illegal to perform a ceremony without a license and being registered in the county where the wedding is performed.
Now someone can perform a "Ceremony" and call it a marriage, but without the liscense it is not a legal marriage, and the couple is still breaking God's law by not having a liscese to be within God's law. They are just calling themselves married when they are not; happens a lot on prom night.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 6:45:35 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1544
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
To suggest, as RC does, marriage is so subjugated to the state is unbiblical and untenable. Marriage is a union between man and woman, committing each other to one another, solemnly promising to remain to one another, until death, before God and Jesus, and to think the state, somehow, can involve itself in this God created institution in the manner RC suggests is just not correct or Biblical.
The point you seem to miss is that one cannot be legally married withou a liscense. They can shack up and not break the state's law, but they will be breaking God's law and committing fornication.
It is also illegal to perform a ceremony without a license and being registered in the county where the wedding is performed.
Now someone can perform a "Ceremony" and call it a marriage, but without the liscense it is not a legal marriage, and the couple is still breaking God's law by not having a liscese to be within God's law. They are just calling themselves married when they are not; happens a lot on prom night.
Thanks
RC
RC
What verse(s) tell us that it is illegal to perform a marriage ceremony in the absence of a license? I don't believe marriage licenses existed in biblical times.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 6:50:48 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC
What verse(s) tell us that it is illegal to perform a marriage ceremony in the absence of a license? I don't believe marriage licenses existed in biblical times.
Not a verse Larry, but Oklahoma State Law., sorry I did not make that clear.
And Romans 13:1-3 tells us to obey the law of the land.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 7:05:37 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1544
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From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC
What verse(s) tell us that it is illegal to perform a marriage ceremony in the absence of a license? I don't believe marriage licenses existed in biblical times.
Not a verse Larry, but Oklahoma State Law., sorry I did not make that clear.
And Romans 13:1-3 tells us to obey the law of the land.
Thanks
RC
OK. In that case, Oklahoma law must be obeyed by conscientious Christians. I honestly don't know what the law is in Texas. I do know that if a church is a properly licensed religious "church," anyone can perform a marriage ceremony and it will be held to be legal if the appropriate paperwork is filed with the county. They don't have to have ministerial credentials. In such a situation, I don't know who would sign the spot on the license where the minister is supposed to sign.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 7:10:42 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
OK. In that case, Oklahoma law must be obeyed by conscientious Christians. I honestly don't know what the law is in Texas. I do know that if a church is a properly licensed religious "church," anyone can perform a marriage ceremony and it will be held to be legal if the appropriate paperwork is filed with the county. They don't have to have ministerial credentials. In such a situation, I don't know who would sign the spot on the license where the minister is supposed to sign.
I have done weddings before where the father of the bride did the vows, I watched and signed the license.
In Freer Texas a few years back, I married a couple and we were all on horseback, Pastor, bride, groom, best man, bridesmaids etc. The ring bearer rode a shetland pony; quite an experinece, and the bar-b-que at the reception was wonderful 
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 7:58:35 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 2956
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
And Romans 13:1-3 tells us to obey the law of the land.
Or the proper religious authorities. I many states it is the same thing. However, in other contexts the difference has some significance.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 9:34:04 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
To suggest, as RC does, marriage is so subjugated to the state is unbiblical and untenable. Marriage is a union between man and woman, committing each other to one another, solemnly promising to remain to one another, until death, before God and Jesus, and to think the state, somehow, can involve itself in this God created institution in the manner RC suggests is just not correct or Biblical.
It is also illegal to perform a ceremony without a license and being registered in the county where the wedding is performed.
Now someone can perform a "Ceremony" and call it a marriage, but without the liscense it is not a legal marriage, and the couple is still breaking God's law by not having a liscese to be within God's law. They are just calling themselves married when they are not; happens a lot on prom night.
Thanks
RC
quote:
The point you seem to miss is that one cannot be legally married withou a liscense. They can shack up and not break the state's law, but they will be breaking God's law and committing fornication.
As I said before, this rests upon the assumption God's law for marriage requires a license from a state. This is, as I said before, an erroneous assumption. There is NO VERSE anywhere in the Bible where marriage is described as, "a union between man and woman, where such a union is legally recognized by the state." No such verse exists and consequently, your claim they are breaking God's law, when no such law exists, is not a correct statement about anything the Bible says on this subject.
quote:
Now someone can perform a "Ceremony" and call it a marriage, but without the liscense it is not a legal marriage, and the couple is still breaking God's law by not having a liscese to be within God's law.
Nowhere in the Bible did God, in creating the institution of marriage, stipulate unless it is recognized by the state, then it is not marriage. Indeed, since the time of Adam and Eve, to Moses and Jesus, the Jews never had a marriage "license" much less one provided to them by the state. What is most curious is, according to your logic, these couples were never married, yet it is quite clear the Bible treated unions at this time as married, and as married according to God's law, despite the lack of marriage licenses or any legal recognition by the state.
Yes, it may not be a "legal marriage" but this does not mean it is not "marriage" according to God's law and in fact it is not correct to state it is a marriage contrary to God's law because God's law does not require legal recognition of the union to constitute as marriage.
You have yet to provide any verse in which God predicates marriage upon the issuance of a marriage license or a marriage license to be issued by the state. In addition, no state in the United States has any law on the books stating a couple is not married as a matter of religious faith, religious practice, ritual or religious belief.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 9:38:59 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC
What verse(s) tell us that it is illegal to perform a marriage ceremony in the absence of a license? I don't believe marriage licenses existed in biblical times.
Not a verse Larry, but Oklahoma State Law., sorry I did not make that clear.
And Romans 13:1-3 tells us to obey the law of the land.
Thanks
RC
Really? I would be most interested in reading the Oklahoma law prohibiting a marriage ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I'd like to read the statute which states no pastor, minister, preacher, clergy member, nun, priest, bishop, cleric, pope, etcetera may perform a wedding ceremony in the absence of a license. I do not think any such law exists, quite simply because such a law would likely have been challenged by now as being an unconstitutional infringement upon the First Amendment's Free Exercise of Religion Clause, and quite simply I have never, not in undergraduate school, law school, or my years of practice, ever heard or read any such law existing anywhere in the U.S.
So I am skeptical Oklahoma has a law prohibiting a wedding ceremony in the absence of a marriage license.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 9:55:10 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC
What verse(s) tell us that it is illegal to perform a marriage ceremony in the absence of a license? I don't believe marriage licenses existed in biblical times.
Not a verse Larry, but Oklahoma State Law., sorry I did not make that clear.
And Romans 13:1-3 tells us to obey the law of the land.
Thanks
RC
OK. In that case, Oklahoma law must be obeyed by conscientious Christians. I honestly don't know what the law is in Texas. I do know that if a church is a properly licensed religious "church," anyone can perform a marriage ceremony and it will be held to be legal if the appropriate paperwork is filed with the county. They don't have to have ministerial credentials. In such a situation, I don't know who would sign the spot on the license where the minister is supposed to sign.
Well, assuming any Oklahoma law exists prohibiting a wedding ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I am skeptical and doubtful any such law exists in Oklahoma or anywhere in the U.S.
However, as I stated previously, God created the institution of marriage, and it is subject to his dictates, not human secular law. I believe if two people, of the opposite sex, have a ceremony, in which they exchange vows to one another, in front of witnesses, and have this recognized in some form of a contract, then they are married in the eyes of God, regardless of the fact the state does not recognize the union as marriage under state law. So far nobody has provided me any verse in which these two people would not be married in God's eyes.
In fact, for the longest time, this is precisely how two people were married, in the U.S., and from the time of Moses, up to and after Jesus. A marriage license is not necessary for a couple to be married in God's view.
< Message edited by NotreDame -- 6/25/2009 10:05:16 PM >
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 10:08:11 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 669
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
Really? I would be most interested in reading the Oklahoma law prohibiting a marriage ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I'd like to read the statute which states no pastor, minister, preacher, clergy member, nun, priest, bishop, cleric, pope, etcetera may perform a wedding ceremony in the absence of a license. I do not think any such law exists, quite simply because such a law would likely have been challenged by now as being an unconstitutional infringement upon the First Amendment's Free Exercise of Religion Clause, and quite simply I have never, not in undergraduate school, law school, or my years of practice, ever heard or read any such law existing anywhere in the U.S.
The you're not legally married. No liscence no legal marriage. The law says you need a liscence to get married. So if you're not following the law here then you're not honoring God, therefore God will not honor what you call marriage because it doesn't meet the legal requirements.
Simple
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 10:21:43 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1544
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
Really? I would be most interested in reading the Oklahoma law prohibiting a marriage ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I'd like to read the statute which states no pastor, minister, preacher, clergy member, nun, priest, bishop, cleric, pope, etcetera may perform a wedding ceremony in the absence of a license. I do not think any such law exists, quite simply because such a law would likely have been challenged by now as being an unconstitutional infringement upon the First Amendment's Free Exercise of Religion Clause, and quite simply I have never, not in undergraduate school, law school, or my years of practice, ever heard or read any such law existing anywhere in the U.S.
The you're not legally married. No liscence no legal marriage. The law says you need a liscence to get married. So if you're not following the law here then you're not honoring God, therefore God will not honor what you call marriage because it doesn't meet the legal requirements.
Simple
G
Actually, all we can ascertain in normal situations (most states I assume) is that a license is require before the state will recognize the marriage and give it legal protection. I will not speak to the situation in all states. I only have RC James' word that Oklahoma law forbids ceremony without license. I am no position to question him because I have never lived in Oklahoma.
Right now in most states, gays are having ceremonies performed that are not afforded legal protection. Don't we all know that if it were really and truly illegal (i.e. punishable) then some groups would be shouting it from the highest mountain that something ought to be done to stop it. It is certainly possible, I suppose that it is still illegal but no one has the guts to challenge it in court.
But saying that something has no legal protection is not the same thing as saying it is illegal, i.e. anti-legal. If it is illegal (anti-legal), then Christians who want to please God should not be performing those ceremonies. But if there is no law stating so, we would not break any law and would not transgress God's command to by marrying or performing marriages without a license.
I only say that it is a bad idea. People do lie, even people we sincerely believe are in love. If they aren't lying now, it certainly places them in a position where they could. Marriage is as serious enough without getting legal protection.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/25/2009 10:31:43 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1544
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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What is probably illegal in Oklahoma and every other state is to claim money, property, child custody, pensions, inheritance and estates and so forth, etc...on the basis of marriage without a lawfully signed license. Very likely, that is the difference. It would not so much be illegal (anti-legal) to perform a ceremony as it would be to try to benefit from said ceremony without registering the proper paperwork.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 9:05:19 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
Really? I would be most interested in reading the Oklahoma law prohibiting a marriage ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I'd like to read the statute which states no pastor, minister, preacher, clergy member, nun, priest, bishop, cleric, pope, etcetera may perform a wedding ceremony in the absence of a license. I do not think any such law exists, quite simply because such a law would likely have been challenged by now as being an unconstitutional infringement upon the First Amendment's Free Exercise of Religion Clause, and quite simply I have never, not in undergraduate school, law school, or my years of practice, ever heard or read any such law existing anywhere in the U.S.
The you're not legally married. No liscence no legal marriage. The law says you need a liscence to get married. So if you're not following the law here then you're not honoring God, therefore God will not honor what you call marriage because it doesn't meet the legal requirements.
Simple
G
Well this is a most interesting position. Let's explore its boundaries to ascertain how logically sound this reasoning may be.
Before the U.S. Supreme Court case of Loving v. Virginia, most states prohibited miscegenation (in other words, interracial marriage). According to your logic, a black man and a white woman who participated in a marriage ceremony, exchanged oath and vows, before witnesses, and had this documented, on a piece of paper, in which both the groom and bride signed, witnesses signed, and the person marrying them signed, is not a "marriage" in God's eyes because the state refuses to give them a marriage license on the basis they are of not the same race.
Let's use another example. Let's suppose the marriage license fee is $750.00 dollars. Couple X, which is a man and woman, have a ceremony, exchange vows, make promises to each other, witnesses, a piece of paper they sign, witnesses sign, the person marrying them signs, and then subsequently goes to the clerks office to obtain a marriage license. They are told the fee they must pay. They do not have the money. As a result, they leave without a marriage license on the basis they could not afford to pay the fee to obtain one. According to your logic, God does not consider this couple married, solely on the basis they could not afford to pay for the marriage license.
In another instance, same facts, minus the fee, except the state decides not to give a marriage license to anyone with a degree from the University of Notre Dame. By your reasoning, God does not consider this couple to be married and why? Because the state has decided to discriminate on the basis of where one receives a college diploma.
Or, the state refuses to grant marriage licenses to anyone who is not Protestant, who is Asian, who has black hair, who does not have blue eyes, to anyone who is not white, and so forth. To think God's institution of marriage is predicated upon these considerations is untenable.
I seriously doubt, and indeed you cannot and nobody has provided me one verse, where God has predicated his institution of marriage upon A.) state issuance of a marriage license and B.) the conditions the state predicates the receipt of a marriage license.
Furthermore, I might add the law does not say you need a "marriage license" to be married. Rather, the law says in order for a marriage to be officially recognized and recorded by the state, and recognized by the state, and its laws, a marriage license is needed. The two statements are not the same and the law does not say anything remotely close to what you attribute to it.
Here is another interesting point. Presently, 11 states recognize common law marriages, along with the District of Columbia. Other states, however, require a marriage license. The result is the interesting paradox of God recognizing the legitimacy of a marriage on the basis of different criteria! In one instance, according to your reasoning and that of RC James, God only recognizes marriages in which a marriage license is obtained, but apparently in another instance God does not require a marriage license in those jurisdictions where a common law marriage is recognized. I find this troubling since we are predicating God's institution of marriage on varying state laws.
< Message edited by NotreDame -- 6/26/2009 9:46:41 AM >
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 9:21:20 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 6345
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC
What verse(s) tell us that it is illegal to perform a marriage ceremony in the absence of a license? I don't believe marriage licenses existed in biblical times.
Not a verse Larry, but Oklahoma State Law., sorry I did not make that clear.
And Romans 13:1-3 tells us to obey the law of the land.
Thanks
RC
OK. In that case, Oklahoma law must be obeyed by conscientious Christians. I honestly don't know what the law is in Texas. I do know that if a church is a properly licensed religious "church," anyone can perform a marriage ceremony and it will be held to be legal if the appropriate paperwork is filed with the county. They don't have to have ministerial credentials. In such a situation, I don't know who would sign the spot on the license where the minister is supposed to sign.
Well, assuming any Oklahoma law exists prohibiting a wedding ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I am skeptical and doubtful any such law exists in Oklahoma or anywhere in the U.S.
However, as I stated previously, God created the institution of marriage, and it is subject to his dictates, not human secular law. I believe if two people, of the opposite sex, have a ceremony, in which they exchange vows to one another, in front of witnesses, and have this recognized in some form of a contract, then they are married in the eyes of God, regardless of the fact the state does not recognize the union as marriage under state law. So far nobody has provided me any verse in which these two people would not be married in God's eyes.
In fact, for the longest time, this is precisely how two people were married, in the U.S., and from the time of Moses, up to and after Jesus. A marriage license is not necessary for a couple to be married in God's view.
It really bothers me when someone from the legal profession makes a blanket statement about the laws in all States in the U.S. I do not know of a lawyer that is well versed in the laws of every state in the union.
Rcjames may be correct in his assertion that a marriage without a license is illegal in Oklahoma. I do not know as I have never lived in Oklahoma nor looked at their Statutes.
However Alabama laws does have such a provision and a penalty for those who ignore the law.
Just to save time, and because I know you are going to want to see the law, I have copied the appropriate statutes from the Code of Alabama, 1975, as amended.
Now according to the below quotes from the Code of Alabama, your statement is incorrect.
Section 30-1-9
Marriage not to be solemnized without license; issuance, effect and duration of license; solemnization of marriage when license void.
No marriage shall be solemnized without a license. Marriage licenses may be issued by the judges of probate of the several counties. The license is an authority to anyone qualified to solemnize marriage to join together in matrimony the persons therein named. Any license issued under the provisions of this section shall be invalid if the marriage for which it was issued has not been solemnized within 30 days from the date of issuance. No person now or hereafter authorized by law to solemnize marriages shall perform any ceremony or solemnize any marriage if the license issued for such marriage has become invalid. Said license shall have stamped or printed upon it the words: "This license is void after 30 days from date unless the marriage is solemnized within said time."
Section 30-1-11
Penalty for solemnization of marriage without license.
Any person authorized under this chapter to perform a marriage ceremony, who joins any persons in marriage without a license as required by this chapter or who goes out of the state and marries persons, one or both of whom reside in this state, without such license or a license from the state in which the marriage is celebrated, forfeits $1,000.00, one half to the use of the state, and the other half to the use of any person who may sue for the same.
_____________________________
Be what you is and not what you ain't. Cause if you ain't what you is, you is what you ain't. - Jeff Easter
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 9:48:44 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 6345
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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Computers are wonderful. The below Statute was copied and pasted from the Oklahoma Statutes.
§43-4.
§43-4.
No person shall enter into or contract the marriage relation, nor
shall any person perform or solemnize the ceremony of any marriage in
this state without a license being first issued by the judge or clerk
of the district court, of some county in this state, authorizing the
marriage between the persons named in such license.
Now NotreDame that is two states who have a law you doubt exist. Any more questions.
Goodmorning Rcj.
_____________________________
Be what you is and not what you ain't. Cause if you ain't what you is, you is what you ain't. - Jeff Easter
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 9:59:13 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 6345
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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The quotes below came from the Statutes of Indiana. Maybe you should stick to Constitutional and/or Criminal law. It appears Civil Law is not your forte.
IC 31-11-4-1
Marriage license required to marry
Sec. 1. Before two (2) individuals may marry each other, the individuals must obtain a marriage license under this chapter.
IC 31-11-4-3
County of residence or solemnization; place to obtain license
Sec. 3. Individuals who intend to marry must obtain a marriage license from the clerk of the circuit court of the county of residence of either of the individuals. If neither of the individuals who intends to marry is a resident of Indiana, the individuals must obtain the marriage license from the clerk of the circuit court of the county in which the marriage is to be solemnized.
IC 31-11-4-13
Duty to present marriage license to individual authorized to solemnize marriages
Sec. 13. Individuals who intend to marry each other must present a marriage license that is issued under this chapter to an individual who is authorized by IC 31-11-6 to solemnize marriages.
As added by P.L.1-1997, SEC.3.
IC 31-11-4-14
Marriage license as authorization of solemnization of marriage
Sec. 14. A marriage license that is issued under this chapter is the legal authority for an individual who is authorized to solemnize marriages to marry two (2) individuals.
_____________________________
Be what you is and not what you ain't. Cause if you ain't what you is, you is what you ain't. - Jeff Easter
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 10:16:07 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 6345
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From: Crimson Tide Country
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Your argument regarding Moses, the founding fathers of this country not having a license is moot. Marriage license, like all the other license required by the States, are relatively new. Anyone married prior to the enactment of the laws requiring a license would not have had one. My grandfather was born before they issued birth certificates. Does the lack of a birth certificate mean he was never born. Of course not.
Does God recognize marriages in the absence of a marriage license. I hesitate to even go there. But, I believe He did when the license was not a requirement of law. However, since my State, Rcjames' State, and your State seem to require a license now I am inclined to agree with Rcjames that those people without the proper license are just shacking up and not married and I "doubt" God recognizes those so-called marriages.
Because we are commanded to obey the law of the governments that God himself ordained.
_____________________________
Be what you is and not what you ain't. Cause if you ain't what you is, you is what you ain't. - Jeff Easter
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 10:26:42 AM
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bolt.
Posts: 1755
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
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Although, I believe God might recognize an undocumented marriage in a time/place where licence regulations exist, but are oppressive. That's not the case for legal residents of most western countries -- but it's not entirely uncommon the world-over.
Ethically, just how oppressive would licence regulations have to be before one would consider an undocumented marriage to be acceptable?
In that case would a minister/pastor participate in any sort of ceremony -- if they avoided the particular language of legal 'solemnization'?
Or would all of that be breaking the law and completely unacceptable in all cases?
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 10:31:33 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6793
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Computers are wonderful. The below Statute was copied and pasted from the Oklahoma Statutes.
§43-4.
§43-4.
No person shall enter into or contract the marriage relation, nor
shall any person perform or solemnize the ceremony of any marriage in
this state without a license being first issued by the judge or clerk
of the district court, of some county in this state, authorizing the
marriage between the persons named in such license.
Now NotreDame that is two states who have a law you doubt exist. Any more questions.
Goodmorning Rcj.
Roll on Tide!
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 10:34:16 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1454
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
Ethically, just how oppressive would licence regulations have to be before one would consider an undocumented marriage to be acceptable?
I would say when documented is unattainable.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 10:38:22 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
RC
What verse(s) tell us that it is illegal to perform a marriage ceremony in the absence of a license? I don't believe marriage licenses existed in biblical times.
Not a verse Larry, but Oklahoma State Law., sorry I did not make that clear.
And Romans 13:1-3 tells us to obey the law of the land.
Thanks
RC
OK. In that case, Oklahoma law must be obeyed by conscientious Christians. I honestly don't know what the law is in Texas. I do know that if a church is a properly licensed religious "church," anyone can perform a marriage ceremony and it will be held to be legal if the appropriate paperwork is filed with the county. They don't have to have ministerial credentials. In such a situation, I don't know who would sign the spot on the license where the minister is supposed to sign.
Well, assuming any Oklahoma law exists prohibiting a wedding ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I am skeptical and doubtful any such law exists in Oklahoma or anywhere in the U.S.
However, as I stated previously, God created the institution of marriage, and it is subject to his dictates, not human secular law. I believe if two people, of the opposite sex, have a ceremony, in which they exchange vows to one another, in front of witnesses, and have this recognized in some form of a contract, then they are married in the eyes of God, regardless of the fact the state does not recognize the union as marriage under state law. So far nobody has provided me any verse in which these two people would not be married in God's eyes.
In fact, for the longest time, this is precisely how two people were married, in the U.S., and from the time of Moses, up to and after Jesus. A marriage license is not necessary for a couple to be married in God's view.
Rcjames may be correct in his assertion that a marriage without a license is illegal in Oklahoma. I do not know as I have never lived in Oklahoma nor looked at their Statutes.
However Alabama laws does have such a provision and a penalty for those who ignore the law.
Just to save time, and because I know you are going to want to see the law, I have copied the appropriate statutes from the Code of Alabama, 1975, as amended.
Now according to the below quotes from the Code of Alabama, your statement is incorrect.
Section 30-1-9
Marriage not to be solemnized without license; issuance, effect and duration of license; solemnization of marriage when license void.
No marriage shall be solemnized without a license. Marriage licenses may be issued by the judges of probate of the several counties. The license is an authority to anyone qualified to solemnize marriage to join together in matrimony the persons therein named. Any license issued under the provisions of this section shall be invalid if the marriage for which it was issued has not been solemnized within 30 days from the date of issuance. No person now or hereafter authorized by law to solemnize marriages shall perform any ceremony or solemnize any marriage if the license issued for such marriage has become invalid. Said license shall have stamped or printed upon it the words: "This license is void after 30 days from date unless the marriage is solemnized within said time."
Section 30-1-11
Penalty for solemnization of marriage without license.
Any person authorized under this chapter to perform a marriage ceremony, who joins any persons in marriage without a license as required by this chapter or who goes out of the state and marries persons, one or both of whom reside in this state, without such license or a license from the state in which the marriage is celebrated, forfeits $1,000.00, one half to the use of the state, and the other half to the use of any person who may sue for the same.
quote:
Section 30-1-9
quote:
It really bothers me when someone from the legal profession makes a blanket statement about the laws in all States in the U.S. I do not know of a lawyer that is well versed in the laws of every state in the union.
Did I make a blanket statement, or did I carefully choose my words and qualify my remarks? Let's reminisce, shall we? I am skeptical and doubtful any such law exists in Oklahoma or anywhere in the U.S.
Being skeptical and doubtful any such law exists, anywhere in the U.S., is not the same as asserting such a law does not in fact exist. I made no such blanket statement as you contend. I specifically left open the possibility I may be wrong by use of the words "skeptical and doubtful" as opposed to the words of "absolutely certain" no such laws exist.
Now, let's look at the statute you cite, because the Alabama courts have narrowly construed the statute. It does not prohibit all solemnizations of marriages without a marriage license. Rather, the statute prohibits, "persons authorized by section 8995 to solemnize marriages, who perform such ceremony without a license, and does not embrace the solemnization of a marriage under a license issued by the judge of probate of a county....When so construed the penalty is levied against persons authorized by section 8995 to solemnize marriages Wallace v. Screws, 227 Ala. 183 (1923). Emphasis mine.
Here, the Alabama Supreme Court stated the statute held to impose penalty on persons authorized by statute to solemnize marriages who perform ceremony without marriage license. In other words, those mentioned in the statute who may solemnize a marriage may not solemnize a marriage without a marriage license. The statute is a restriction on those who may solemnize a marriage, and not a prohibition on all forms of solemnization of a marriage. The statute does not read, and has not been construed as a prohibition on any and all solemnizations of marriage.
Now, there is a particular provision worthy of mention and it is Alabama Code Section 30-1-7 (c) which provides "The people called Mennonites, Quakers, or any other Christian society having similar rules or regulations, may solemnize marriage according to their forms by consent of the parties, published and declared before the congregation assembled for public worship."
I have been searching the Alabama code and cases in determining the percise meaning of this part of the code. I have yet to find any cases interpreting this section.
The Alabama courts have held a marriage license is not necessary for marriage. "Marriage may be contracted by parties competent to so contract without ceremony or solemnization..." Rogers v. McCleskey. I reference this case for the express purpose of illuminating the Alabama code does not prohibit marriage in the absence of a marriage license.
I thank you though for the time and effort devoted to this issue. (This is not sarcasm).
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 10:45:13 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
The quotes below came from the Statutes of Indiana. Maybe you should stick to Constitutional and/or Criminal law. It appears Civil Law is not your forte.
Really? It is not my forte? Despite the fact I just eviscerated your legal analysis regarding the Alabama statute? The problem is you construed, rather erroneously I might add, the Alabama statute to be a prohibition against any and all kinds of solemnization. The Alabama statute you provide me does not make any such prohibition. The Alabama statute did not read, does not read, and has not been interpreted by the Alabama courts to read no solemnization of a marriage may ever transpire.
So, I say legal analysis, reading, and properly understanding what a law say is not your forte. Whatever your occupation may be, it certainly is not properly reading and understanding statutory law, as is evident by my correction of your misunderstanding of Alabama law. I suppose I must now devote time and energy in examining the Oklahoma and Indiana statutes to also correct your misreading of these statutes?
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 10:47:00 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 555
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Computers are wonderful. The below Statute was copied and pasted from the Oklahoma Statutes.
§43-4.
§43-4.
No person shall enter into or contract the marriage relation, nor
shall any person perform or solemnize the ceremony of any marriage in
this state without a license being first issued by the judge or clerk
of the district court, of some county in this state, authorizing the
marriage between the persons named in such license.
Now NotreDame that is two states who have a law you doubt exist. Any more questions.
Goodmorning Rcj.
Roll on Tide!
Thanks
RC
If misreading a statute is worthy of extending salutations, then he is certainly worth of the accolade.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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