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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 10:54:07 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
Computers are wonderful. The below Statute was copied and pasted from the Oklahoma Statutes.
§43-4.
§43-4.
No person shall enter into or contract the marriage relation, nor
shall any person perform or solemnize the ceremony of any marriage in
this state without a license being first issued by the judge or clerk
of the district court, of some county in this state, authorizing the
marriage between the persons named in such license.
Now NotreDame that is two states who have a law you doubt exist. Any more questions.
Goodmorning Rcj.
quote:
Now NotreDame that is two states who have a law you doubt exist. Any more questions.
Yes...why exactly did you misread the Alabama statute, because it does not say what you assert it does. Consequently, at the moment you have tentatively provided one state, Oklahoma, which has a law on the books I doubt exists. So, before you attempt to or begin polishing your laurels, you may want to reconsider what exactly the Alabama law says, as it does not say what you think it does.
My question to you is the following. Will I find, upon further research and investigation, the Oklahoma statute does not say what you think it does, and has not been construed by the court to say what you attribute to it?
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 11:20:09 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
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From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
Ethically, just how oppressive would licence regulations have to be before one would consider an undocumented marriage to be acceptable?
You bring up a very good point, one which I previously entertained in a prior post to another poster. Let's ask your question differently.
What if in one state the marriage of two people of the different sex is recognized so long as both of them are 14 but another state does not. So, in the state of Cantebury, people may marry at the age of 14, so long they are of the opposite sex. So, we have two 14 year olds marry in the state of Cantebury as soon as they turn 14. They subsequently move to the state of Camelot. In the state of Camelot, nobody below the age of 18 may marry or enter into marriage, and any such marriages are void. Is this couple's marriage now illegitimate according to God? So, when the couple resided in Cantebury God acknowledged the marriage as legitimate, but as soon as they moved to a state which does not recognize their marriage, then God considered their marriage as illegitimate. So, they became sinners by the mere act of moving to a state which does not recognize their marriage?
Is this really what we want to predicate God's institution upon?
Let's use another example. Suppose, for a moment, we have a nation called Miscegenation. In the nation of Miscegenation, no one may marry anyone of the opposite race and any such marriages between people of the opposite race is void. Here in the U.S., where we have bi-racial marriages, a couple decides to move to the nation of Miscegenation. The husband received a job offer he could not refuse. Or we could even say the couple is not permanently living their but only moving there temporarily, for approximately 5 years, to perform some job for the mother/sister company in which the husband is employed.
As soon as they step a foot on Miscegenation's soil, within its jurisdiction, their marriage is void under the laws of the nation of Miscegenation. Did their marriage go from legitimate to illegitimate in God's eyes? Does God consider them as no longer married?
These are but a few problems with taking the approach of predicating God's institution of marriage upon state laws and recognition of it.
I will say, however, I am no prophet, I am no apostle, I am not God, so I could be wrong. However, I just do not think I am wrong. I think God would honor a marriage ceremony, in front of witnesses, with the exchanging of vows, documented by paper, regardless of whether any state or nation recognized the marriage.
< Message edited by NotreDame -- 6/26/2009 11:31:59 AM >
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 11:22:18 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 6322
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I did not misread nor misinterpret the law. I qouted word for word from the statute. I admitted a few posts back that my state is on of the few, about 20 I think, that recognizes a common law marriage.
My posts were referring to you saying you doubt any such law exist in Oklahoma or any other state. Whether they are enforced or not and whether there are various court cases involving said statutes they still exist. Even in Indiana.
But I am afraid this is straying way to far off-topic so this is my last post along these lines.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 11:39:24 AM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
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You did misread the Alabama statute. You referred me to an Alabama statute and indicated the statute prohibited any and all solemnizations of marrige. The Alabama statute does not and is not a prohibition on any and all solemnizations of marriage. The statute places a restriction, not on solemnization of marriage, but on individuals who may under the statute solemnize a marriage. The statute leaves unregulated all other kinds, types, and forms of solemnized marriage/marriage. The statute does not prohibit, preclude, deny anyone from being married without a license, as you contended. You misread the Alabama statute. Period.
I suspect there are probably similar if not identical limitations upon the Indiana and Oklahoma statutes you provided, which in other words means these statutes do not state a marriage without a license is prohibited or solemnizing a marriage without a license is prohibited. It took some time for me to research the Alabama law, time I do not have in regards to the Oklahoma/Indiana laws.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 11:42:57 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I did not misread nor misinterpret the law. I qouted word for word from the statute. I admitted a few posts back that my state is on of the few, about 20 I think, that recognizes a common law marriage.
My posts were referring to you saying you doubt any such law exist in Oklahoma or any other state. Whether they are enforced or not and whether there are various court cases involving said statutes they still exist. Even in Indiana.
But I am afraid this is straying way to far off-topic so this is my last post along these lines.
isn't that the way Qtman, someone gets on the short end of a discussion; they start changing direction.
We have a saying here in Oklahoma that some folks are so stubborn that they will agrue with a fence post; seems apropos to me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 11:58:28 AM
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Qtman
Posts: 6322
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That is a problem quite common on here.
The thing is YOU said YOU could not perform a wedding ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. Notredame said..
Really? I would be most interested in reading the Oklahoma law prohibiting a marriage ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I'd like to read the statute which states no pastor, minister, preacher, clergy member, nun, priest, bishop, cleric, pope, etcetera may perform a wedding ceremony in the absence of a license. I do not think any such law exists, quite simply because such a law would likely have been challenged by now as being an unconstitutional infringement upon the First Amendment's Free Exercise of Religion Clause, and quite simply I have never, not in undergraduate school, law school, or my years of practice, ever heard or read any such law existing anywhere in the U.S.
So I am skeptical Oklahoma has a law prohibiting a wedding ceremony in the absence of a marriage license.
Both the Oklahoma and Alabama statutes says YOU(Rcjames) as a minister and as someone authorized by law to solemnize a marriage can't do so in the abesnce of a marriage certificate.
Please note: This does not preclude a Common Law Marriage or any marriage otherwise authorized by law. It simply says that Rcjames was right. He is forbidden by the very statute that authorizes him to perform the cermony from doing so with out the couple first obtaining a license to marry. That is the statute pure and simple.
BTW Notredame there are many peolpe posting on here claiming to have one occupation or another which I sometimes doubt. I am convinced however, you really are a lawyer.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 12:06:55 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
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From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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I did not change any direction. The two of you are apparently confused as to the direction of the dialogue.
Qtman was seeking to provide for me statutes which prohibited marriage without a marriage license. Qtman then referred me to an Alabama statute. The only problem is, however, the Alabama statute does not prohibit marriages without a marriage license. He misread the statute, as the Alabama statute does not say what he thinks it does. Hence, correcting him on the statute was and remains germane to the dialogue.
What is apropo here is both of you seem to vastly misunderstand what is germane to the dialogue.
quote:
We have a saying here in Oklahoma that some folks are so stubborn that they will agrue with a fence post
So, how many fence posts have you argued with then?  (friendly banter).
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 12:12:39 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
That is a problem quite common on here.
The thing is YOU said YOU could not perform a wedding ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. Notredame said..
Really? I would be most interested in reading the Oklahoma law prohibiting a marriage ceremony in the absence of a marriage license. I'd like to read the statute which states no pastor, minister, preacher, clergy member, nun, priest, bishop, cleric, pope, etcetera may perform a wedding ceremony in the absence of a license. I do not think any such law exists, quite simply because such a law would likely have been challenged by now as being an unconstitutional infringement upon the First Amendment's Free Exercise of Religion Clause, and quite simply I have never, not in undergraduate school, law school, or my years of practice, ever heard or read any such law existing anywhere in the U.S.
So I am skeptical Oklahoma has a law prohibiting a wedding ceremony in the absence of a marriage license.
Both the Oklahoma and Alabama statutes says YOU(Rcjames) as a minister and as someone authorized by law to solemnize a marriage can't do so in the abesnce of a marriage certificate.
BTW Notredame there are many peolpe posting on here claiming to have one occupation or another which I sometimes doubt. I am convinced however, you really are a lawyer.
quote:
I am convinced however, you really are a lawyer.
Touche...very witty remark. Very witty.
For the record though, I am a lawyer. I am a prosecuting attorney and constitutonal lawyer.
quote:
Please note: This does not preclude a Common Law Marriage or any marriage otherwise authorized by law. It simply says that Rcjames was right. He is forbidden by the very statute that authorizes him to perform the cermony from doing so with out the couple first obtaining a license to marry. That is the statute pure and simple.
Oh we will eventually get to the Oklahoma statute. Hopefully, the statute is as you say so. I already see some language in the statute which would undermine your position but I will not speak further on it until I have had sufficient time to research it as I did the Alabama statute.
However, thank you for being congenial towards me in your posts.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 12:24:26 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
I did not change any direction. The two of you are apparently confused as to the direction of the dialogue.
Qtman was seeking to provide for me statutes which prohibited marriage without a marriage license. Qtman then referred me to an Alabama statute. The only problem is, however, the Alabama statute does not prohibit marriages without a marriage license. He misread the statute, as the Alabama statute does not say what he thinks it does. Hence, correcting him on the statute was and remains germane to the dialogue.
What is apropo here is both of you seem to vastly misunderstand what is germane to the dialogue.
quote:
We have a saying here in Oklahoma that some folks are so stubborn that they will agrue with a fence post
So, how many fence posts have you argued with then? (friendly banter).
Geeze. I really don't like talking to lawyers. My boss included.  (as you say Friendly banter)
quote:
Geeze. I really don't like talking to lawyers.
Neither does my wife. She will often ask me to speak to her as her husband, not a lawyer.
As for the other remarks, I edited this post to reflect and take into consideration your most recent post. Please disregard this post if you so happen to read it before I made my replies in the post immediately following this one.
< Message edited by NotreDame -- 6/26/2009 12:31:27 PM >
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 12:29:38 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
However, thank you for being congenial towards me in your posts.
I see no need to be ugly.
Now for what God recognizes and accepts you have your opinion, Rcjames has his opinion and I have mine. None of us are necessarily right and none of us are necessarily wrong. It's just our opinion and we won't get kicked out of Heaven over it.
BTW I am proud to say that during my 30 year career I have probably spent more time in a court room either as the investigating officer, assisting the prosecuting attorney or as an expert witness, than most of the members of the Alabama Bar Association. Even studied law foa a while.
quote:
I think you and I may be misunderstanding each other.
Yes, we are, primarily because I forgot about the comment I made about RC James being precluded from marrying some people. On this point, you did correctly provide me a statute which does restrain certain people from solemnizing a marriage. This is one point, separate and distinct from the issue of when does God recognize a marriage. As you noted below, the other point is when does God recognize a marriage?
quote:
Now for what God recognizes and accepts you have your opinion, Rcjames has his opinion and I have mine. None of us are necessarily right and none of us are necessarily wrong. It's just our opinion and we won't get kicked out of Heaven over it.
Emphasis mine.
This was the other issue.
quote:
BTW I am proud to say that during my 30 year career I have probably spent more time in a court room either as the investigating officer, assisting the prosecuting attorney or as an expert witness, than most of the members of the Alabama Bar Association. Even studied law foa a while.[:
Wow....I am a newbie next to you. You, however should be commended for your many years of public service. I have profound respect for those who devote their lives to serving others. Why did you give up the study of law?
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 12:32:51 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6322
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NotreDame
quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
However, thank you for being congenial towards me in your posts.
I see no need to be ugly.
Now for what God recognizes and accepts you have your opinion, Rcjames has his opinion and I have mine. None of us are necessarily right and none of us are necessarily wrong. It's just our opinion and we won't get kicked out of Heaven over it.
BTW I am proud to say that during my 30 year career I have probably spent more time in a court room either as the investigating officer, assisting the prosecuting attorney or as an expert witness, than most of the members of the Alabama Bar Association. Even studied law foa a while.
quote:
I think you and I may be misunderstanding each other.
Yes, we are, primarily because I forgot about the comment I made about RC James being precluded from marrying some people. This is one point, separate and distinct from the issue of when does God recognize a marriage, as you noted below, the other point being when does God recognize a marriage?
quote:
Now for what God recognizes and accepts you have your opinion, Rcjames has his opinion and I have mine. None of us are necessarily right and none of us are necessarily wrong. It's just our opinion and we won't get kicked out of Heaven over it.
Emphasis mine.
This was the other issue.
quote:
BTW I am proud to say that during my 30 year career I have probably spent more time in a court room either as the investigating officer, assisting the prosecuting attorney or as an expert witness, than most of the members of the Alabama Bar Association. Even studied law foa a while.[:
Wow....I am a newbie next to you. You, however should be commended for your many years of public service. I have profound respect for those who devote their lives to serving others. Why did you give up the study of law?
Just to inconvenient. There was no law school closer than 200 miles from my house and I had a family to support. So........I became the other half of Law and Order.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 12:35:12 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
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From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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And, seeing as you testified as an expert, you apparently excelled at your job. As I said, if tipping hats towards another person was still the norm, then I tip my hat towards you for your long devoted work to the public sector.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 12:55:19 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 664
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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Notre,
I am really confused as to what you are TRYING to say.
Let me make it clearer on what I believe:
1. In the United States of America it's easy to get a marriage license. You can obtain a marriage license for a heterosexual couple. It is required in most states to obtain a license, there are some that allow common law marriages, and in those states you must meet the requirements for having a common law marriage.
2. If you live in a state that doesn't allow common law marriage (the only legal way to have an undocumented marriage) then you must follow procedures in that state or legal juristiction to become married.
3. Because God set up government and allows it to function (even a government in Opposition to him) we have to follow the law of the land even in this.
4. So in most cases in the United States marriage needs to have a license which means it's documented.
5. If you get married in a place (another country) that doesn't document marriages as we do, then you follow the laws of their land, and that marriage will be valid.
6. If you move to the united states from a country that does not document marriages, then your marriage will be undocumented, so in other words you will be married but it won't be legally recognized. to get it recognized by the government you must get a license and go through the legal process in this country.
So in summary there really are only 2 reasons i see where undocumented marriages could exist in this country. Common law marriage (not all states participate) and someone moving from a country that doesn't document marriages.
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:08:52 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6322
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
Notre,
I am really confused as to what you are TRYING to say.
Let me make it clearer on what I believe:
1. In the United States of America it's easy to get a marriage license. You can obtain a marriage license for a heterosexual couple. It is required in most states to obtain a license, there are some that allow common law marriages, and in those states you must meet the requirements for having a common law marriage.
2. If you live in a state that doesn't allow common law marriage (the only legal way to have an undocumented marriage) then you must follow procedures in that state or legal juristiction to become married.
3. Because God set up government and allows it to function (even a government in Opposition to him) we have to follow the law of the land even in this.
4. So in most cases in the United States marriage needs to have a license which means it's documented.
5. If you get married in a place (another country) that doesn't document marriages as we do, then you follow the laws of their land, and that marriage will be valid.
6. If you move to the united states from a country that does not document marriages, then your marriage will be undocumented, so in other words you will be married but it won't be legally recognized. to get it recognized by the government you must get a license and go through the legal process in this country.
So in summary there really are only 2 reasons i see where undocumented marriages could exist in this country. Common law marriage (not all states participate) and someone moving from a country that doesn't document marriages.
G
I agree with most everything you posted except the bold part. In this country and in most states there are provisions for recognizing things like this that was properly done under the laws of another state or country. So I think the marriages would be recognized as legal if they werer legal under the country they used to liive in. The only exception I can think of would be same sex marriages. I know my state will not recognize them at all.
BTW I do not think they should.
_____________________________
At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:10:44 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 6733
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
2. If you live in a state that doesn't allow common law marriage (the only legal way to have an undocumented marriage) then you must follow procedures in that state or legal juristiction to become married.
Here in Oklahoma the state does recognize common law marriage (sometimes). The operative work is "Recognize"; for this to take place a court has to do the recognizing, and then it becomes documented just like getting a license documents marriage.
So two folks shacking up, does not a common law marriage make here in Oklahoma; the State still has to be involved.
So when I run across folks who are shacking up; I encourage them to repent of fornication and get married.
you make a good point about the laws (and customs) of other countries. I was a full time missionary in 8 different countries for over 20 years, and they seem to all be different; but there was always some procedure to go through (how ever simple or complicated that procedure is) before the couple become "Married".
Just deciding to scratch an itch, doen not a marriage make.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:11:35 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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DP
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:13:08 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
Notre,
I am really confused as to what you are TRYING to say.
Let me make it clearer on what I believe:
1. In the United States of America it's easy to get a marriage license. You can obtain a marriage license for a heterosexual couple. It is required in most states to obtain a license, there are some that allow common law marriages, and in those states you must meet the requirements for having a common law marriage.
2. If you live in a state that doesn't allow common law marriage (the only legal way to have an undocumented marriage) then you must follow procedures in that state or legal juristiction to become married.
3. Because God set up government and allows it to function (even a government in Opposition to him) we have to follow the law of the land even in this.
4. So in most cases in the United States marriage needs to have a license which means it's documented.
5. If you get married in a place (another country) that doesn't document marriages as we do, then you follow the laws of their land, and that marriage will be valid.
6. If you move to the united states from a country that does not document marriages, then your marriage will be undocumented, so in other words you will be married but it won't be legally recognized. to get it recognized by the government you must get a license and go through the legal process in this country.
So in summary there really are only 2 reasons i see where undocumented marriages could exist in this country. Common law marriage (not all states participate) and someone moving from a country that doesn't document marriages.
G
Are you taking the position God does not acknowledge a marriage unless it conforms to state law, because this is the issue. Under what circumstances does God recognize a marriage? RC James and a few others have postulated the idea as far as God and the Bible are concerned, a marriage in the U.S. is not a marriage according to God unless it is recognized by state law or the laws under the state. Is this your contention as well?
quote:
3. Because God set up government and allows it to function (even a government in Opposition to him) we have to follow the law of the land even in this.
The law does not prohibit the existence of marriages without a license, or the solemnization of a marriage without a license. What the law states, unequivocally, is for some marriage to exist as an entity, a legal entity, under the laws of the state, thereby entitled to the privileges, rights, and immunities of marriage under state law, requires a marriage license. This does not state, however, no person can be married without a marriage license.
quote:
2. If you live in a state that doesn't allow common law marriage (the only legal way to have an undocumented marriage) then you must follow procedures in that state or legal juristiction to become married.
This rests upon the assumption in order for God to recognize a marriage, then the marriage must be legally recognized by the state or legal jurisdiction in which the marriage takes place. I do not subscribe to such a view.
In addition, the following examples illuminate some of the implications of this reasoning.
What if in one state the marriage of two people of the different sex is recognized so long as both of them are 14 but another state does not. So, in the state of Cantebury, people may marry at the age of 14, so long they are of the opposite sex. So, we have two 14 year olds marry in the state of Cantebury as soon as they turn 14. They subsequently move to the state of Camelot. In the state of Camelot, nobody below the age of 18 may marry or enter into marriage, and any such marriages are void. Is this couple's marriage now illegitimate according to God? So, when the couple resided in Cantebury God acknowledged the marriage as legitimate, but as soon as they moved to a state which does not recognize their marriage, then God considered their marriage as illegitimate. So, they became sinners by the mere act of moving to a state which does not recognize their marriage?
Let's use another example. Suppose, for a moment, we have a nation called Miscegenation. In the nation of Miscegenation, no one may marry anyone of the opposite race and any such marriages between people of the opposite race is void. Here in the U.S., where we have bi-racial marriages, a couple decides to move to the nation of Miscegenation. The husband received a job offer he could not refuse. Or we could even say the couple is not permanently living their but only moving there temporarily, for approximately 5 years, to perform some job for the mother/sister company in which the husband is employed.
As soon as they step a foot on Miscegenation's soil, within its jurisdiction, their marriage is void under the laws of the nation of Miscegenation. Did their marriage go from legitimate to illegitimate in God's eyes? Does God consider them as no longer married?
These are but a few problems with taking the approach of predicating God's institution of marriage upon state laws and recognition of it.
Resting God's recognition of marriage upon whether the state or nation recognizes the marriage is problematic and not Biblically supported.
< Message edited by NotreDame -- 6/26/2009 1:21:11 PM >
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:19:39 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 664
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
Are you taking the position God does not acknowledge a marriage unless it conforms to state law, because this is the issue.
I do take this position because God says obey the laws of the Land. In this land it says this, this and this are a requirement. Unless THAT is CONTRARY to God's word then we need to follow the law of the land. Getting a marriage license for instance is not in opposition of God's word. now if the government said only homosexual couples could get married, which is CONTRARY to God's word then undocumented marriage would be ok, because there would be no legal way to fill what God intended for man and woman.
G
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:22:39 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 6322
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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quote:
The law does not prohibit the existence of marriages without a license, or the solemnization of a marriage without a license. What the law states, unequivocally, is for some marriage to exist as an entity, a legal entity, under the laws of the state, thereby entitled to the privileges, rights, and immunities of marriage under state law, requires a marriage license. This does not state, however, no person can be married without a marriage license
I am trying hard not to be argumentative here but you keep repeating this. If you qualify it I have no problem with it. But the law does in fact prohibit it in some cases. The Alabama law says any person authorized under this section to solemnize marriage is prohibited from doing so without a license.
As I said before there are exceptions made but they are exceptions not the rule.
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At one time Jesus was my co-pilot. Things are much better now that He and I have changed seats.
<Me & my happyplate at Lobster Hut
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:29:17 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
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DP
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:30:58 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
quote:
Are you taking the position God does not acknowledge a marriage unless it conforms to state law, because this is the issue.
I do take this position because God says obey the laws of the Land. In this land it says this, this and this are a requirement. Unless THAT is CONTRARY to God's word then we need to follow the law of the land. Getting a marriage license for instance is not in opposition of God's word. now if the government said only homosexual couples could get married, which is CONTRARY to God's word then undocumented marriage would be ok, because there would be no legal way to fill what God intended for man and woman.
G
quote:
I do take this position because God says obey the laws of the Land. In this land it says this, this and this are a requirement.
They are requirements for legal recognition and acknowledgment of a marriage, and not marriage in general or within the religious realm. You are comparing apples to oranges.
quote:
Unless THAT is CONTRARY to God's word then we need to follow the law of the land.
Great...since God's word says nothing about discriminating on the basis of race, hair color, or other criteria, the following examples are derivative of your reasoning.
What if in one state the marriage of two people of the different sex is recognized so long as both of them are 14 but another state does not. So, in the state of Cantebury, people may marry at the age of 14, so long they are of the opposite sex. So, we have two 14 year olds marry in the state of Cantebury as soon as they turn 14. They subsequently move to the state of Camelot. In the state of Camelot, nobody below the age of 18 may marry or enter into marriage, and any such marriages are void. Is this couple's marriage now illegitimate according to God? So, when the couple resided in Cantebury God acknowledged the marriage as legitimate, but as soon as they moved to a state which does not recognize their marriage, then God considered their marriage as illegitimate. So, they became sinners by the mere act of moving to a state which does not recognize their marriage?
Let's use another example. Suppose, for a moment, we have a nation called Miscegenation. In the nation of Miscegenation, no one may marry anyone of the opposite race and any such marriages between people of the opposite race is void. Here in the U.S., where we have bi-racial marriages, a couple decides to move to the nation of Miscegenation. The husband received a job offer he could not refuse. Or we could even say the couple is not permanently living their but only moving there temporarily, for approximately 5 years, to perform some job for the mother/sister company in which the husband is employed.
As soon as they step a foot on Miscegenation's soil, within its jurisdiction, their marriage is void under the laws of the nation of Miscegenation. Did their marriage go from legitimate to illegitimate in God's eyes? Does God consider them as no longer married?
quote:
now if the government said only homosexual couples could get married, which is CONTRARY to God's word then undocumented marriage would be ok, because there would be no legal way to fill what God intended for man and woman.
Yeah, and pray tell how exactly A.) Marriage would exist in such a context for heterosexual couples and B.) Under what circumstances would God then recognize a marriage under such circumstances?
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:36:00 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 664
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: offline
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quote:
They are requirements for legal recognition and acknowledgment of a marriage, and not marriage in general or within the religious realm. You are comparing apples to oranges.
So you believe that marriage as a legal entity and marriage of a religious entity are exclusive of each other?
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/26/2009 1:36:34 PM
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NotreDame
Posts: 566
Joined: 4/14/2009
From: 5 hours south of the Golden Dome of Notre Dame
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
quote:
The law does not prohibit the existence of marriages without a license, or the solemnization of a marriage without a license. What the law states, unequivocally, is for some marriage to exist as an entity, a legal entity, under the laws of the state, thereby entitled to the privileges, rights, and immunities of marriage under state law, requires a marriage license. This does not state, however, no person can be married without a marriage license
I am trying hard not to be argumentative here but you keep repeating this. If you qualify it I have no problem with it. But the law does in fact prohibit it in some cases. The Alabama law says any person authorized under this section to solemnize marriage is prohibited from doing so without a license.
As I said before there are exceptions made but they are exceptions not the rule.
quote:
I am trying hard not to be argumentative here but you keep repeating this. If you qualify it I have no problem with it. But the law does in fact prohibit it in some cases.
It is carefully qualified. Let's review my statement.
The law does not prohibit the existence of marriages without a license, or the solemnization of a marriage without a license.
A restriction on X people from solemnizing a marriage in the absence of a license is not the same as stating a law does not prohibit the existence of marriages without a license, or the solemnization of a marriage without a license. The law only prohibits X people from solemnizing, not solemnization.
_____________________________
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution.
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