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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/30/2009 3:53:29 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 1631
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Look at the first marriage: woman presented to man in the sight of God, vows were made, they were together until death.
I do not see where vows were exchanged between Adam and Eve. Can you point that out for me, please? I did use the word marriage in the context in was given. Exodus being the first time the word marriage is used. So, where did I go wrong? (I'm not being snotty, I really want to know!  )
I didn't mean you were wrong, just expanding on why the conjugal, um, blessings were included. 
As for the other:
Genesis 2:21-24 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; [22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. [23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. [24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Note I said vows were given, not exchanged. I really should have pointed it out better but I was pressed for time when posting. My fault there. I probably would have made the same assumption. Basically, Adam is saying, both literally and figuratively, that the woman and man shall be together and remain so since one came from the other.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 6/30/2009 4:51:49 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 1805
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Note I said vows were given, not exchanged. I really should have pointed it out better but I was pressed for time when posting. My fault there. I probably would have made the same assumption. Basically, Adam is saying, both literally and figuratively, that the woman and man shall be together and remain so since one came from the other.
Thank you! I can see that now!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/15/2009 5:59:50 AM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
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Hey, thanks so much for such great topic but I have more questions about that. What about if it didn't happen in the States. It happens in a pagon country. This is the true story: An asian married to an African-american in Asia (you know most asian countries are not Christian countries, but idol worshipping nations), and their marriage ceremony were conducted by an american pastor in the church, however, they never did any registration with the government. After married for several years, the african-american (who happens to be a man of God) told his asian woman that he was married before in the States with an african-american sister and he decided to go back to his african-american wife. The asian woman was heart-broken!
So how do you consider this? The asian woman was not aware of this in the past few years, and she had decided to leave the man after she was told. She is the vicitim of the whole thing and she decided to live right for God.
After things happened, she went for some counselings from that pastor who conducted their ceremony, however, the american pastor told her that ceremony was only for formality, as long as it's not registered with the governmet agency, they were not married.
So will you consider she is married or she could be married in the future?
I'd love to hear what's your view?
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/15/2009 6:08:35 AM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
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My point is now that the african-american pastor is now with his african-american wife, and they still pastor their church, however, it has gradually become a obsticle when she has some opportunities to make some christian friends. People have different reaction toward this issue, and people tend to cut the friendship with her because of what she experienced.
So is it her fault or just because she is not an american?
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 12:26:42 AM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I must post my disagreement with you on this one.
The Pastor does not "Marry" the couple; the pastor only "Officiates" the ceremonial part. The marriage is made legal by the license issued by the State, and the subsequent filing of that completed and signed license in the Court. That is what makes it legal.
No license, no legal marriage, so in my opinion the couple is committing fornication, and the Pastor that preformed the ceremony without a liscense is aiding and abetting that fornication, and will have to answer to God for it.
Thanks
RC
RCJames, please read the true story I posted yesterday. As a man of God, how would you council this asian woman? I mean before she left the african-american man, the man had told the church they have divorced, but nothing had been done. She realized that she has been cheated for years, however, after she was told about the reality, she left the man and re-start her life. So in reality, I really don't think that she is bounded to that man anymore, just like to said "No license, no legal marriage!"
I welcome everyone who concern this issue!
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 1:02:22 AM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
When we disobey the laws of our earthly nation we dishonour God by disobeying the specific command that he has given to us -- that we should live in proper submission to our governing authorities.
Question, bolt: so do you think the couple is still husband and wife, if they never go through the legal process?
Like the true story I just provided yesterday, can the asian woman marry in the future as long as she is transparent to her future husband?
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 1:08:44 AM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
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[/quote]
No. If two people who are honest with the preacher and all the other Christians who witness it, a ceremony to live with each other for life before God and community is not sin just because they don't sign a license. However, it sounds suspicious to me that people are unwilling or unable for some reason to document it. There is waaayyyy too much room for deception if they do it. Suppose one party has implicit trust in the other but later discovers a genuine legal marriage happened previously. Or, suppose one of them marries legally later. What is to hold them to it legally? Nothing, apparently.
Sometimes, the law holds us accountable in ways that our word cannot. An undocumented marriage gives too much chance for unaccountability.
[/quote]
That's my point, so in reality, do you think the asian woman is bounded to african-american man since he lied to her and later join her african-american wife?
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 8:39:35 AM
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laura...
Posts: 3395
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lhtytlp
Hey, thanks so much for such great topic but I have more questions about that. What about if it didn't happen in the States. It happens in a pagon country. This is the true story: An asian married to an African-american in Asia (you know most asian countries are not Christian countries, but idol worshipping nations), and their marriage ceremony were conducted by an american pastor in the church, however, they never did any registration with the government. After married for several years, the african-american (who happens to be a man of God) told his asian woman that he was married before in the States with an african-american sister and he decided to go back to his african-american wife. The asian woman was heart-broken!
So how do you consider this? The asian woman was not aware of this in the past few years, and she had decided to leave the man after she was told. She is the vicitim of the whole thing and she decided to live right for God.
After things happened, she went for some counselings from that pastor who conducted their ceremony, however, the american pastor told her that ceremony was only for formality, as long as it's not registered with the governmet agency, they were not married.
So will you consider she is married or she could be married in the future?
I'd love to hear what's your view?
Am I understanding this correctly: The A/A man married the Asian woman but he was still/currently married to another woman. If that is true, the man is a bigamist and the Asian woman was never married to him.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 9:01:30 AM
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bolt.
Posts: 1755
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
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quote:
Question, bolt: so do you think the couple is still husband and wife, if they never go through the legal process?
Like the true story I just provided yesterday, can the Asian woman marry in the future as long as she is transparent to her future husband?
In your case-study, I think it is perfectly clear that the man intentionally avoided proper legal processes, for the fully intentional purpose of tricking his 'intended' into making a commitment to him and sleeping with him.
This was not a case of, "We want desperately to do this the proper way, but we physically could not." -- Rather it was a case of, "Let's not bother doing this the proper way."
Therefore, it think the woman in question was tricked and lead mostly-unknowing, blindly 'in love' into committing the sin of fornication -- because she could have (and should have) insisted on a legal marriage before she allowed anyone to be having intercourse with her...
I don't consider her to be bound to him as a married-but-abandoned woman would be. I do consider her to be free to marry, properly, once she has repented of her sins in this situation, and once she has grieved and recovered from the depth of the deception and abuse that was visited upon her.
(But then I'm not sure what the difference would be, since I don't consider a woman who really was married, but her husband left her and took up a sexual relationship with another woman to be still husband-and-wife with him any more either. She too, once the divorce was finalized, would be free to take up a new marriage, since the divorce was on grounds of infidelity.)
I would, though, consider her to have committed additionally, the sins of (1) lawlessness, (2) making inappropriate vows and (3) breaking those vows.
The only situation where I might consider people to be married without proper legal formalities is if they were prevented from obtaining that status by something beyond their control... or perhaps if they had a strong conviction against it that was consistent through their entire personal spirituality and theology.
People who avoid it for convenience or any other reason are simply displaying that they are not interested in actually taking on the true commitment of actual marriage -- and as such whatever words they might say about making a marriage commitment are hollow and full of deceit. Those people are just looking for a veil to draw over their "shacking up".
And the "pastor" that married them! It would have been better for him to drown with a millstone around his neck than to have lead that 'little one' (the naive woman) to sin. It turns my stomach.
_____________________________
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 8:22:06 PM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
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[[/quote]
Am I understanding this correctly: The A/A man married the Asian woman but he was still/currently married to another woman. If that is true, the man is a bigamist and the Asian woman was never married to him.
[/quote]
You got it, he was married to A/A and has a son from her, ran away from her while she was pregnant, then went to asia to meet the asian woman and have the ceremony conducted in the church but never registered.
After about 5 years, he just told the asian woman that his A/A located his position ....
So that's the story ...
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 8:38:46 PM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
Like the true story I just provided yesterday, can the Asian woman marry in the future as long as she is transparent to her future husband?
In your case-study, I think it is perfectly clear that the man intentionally avoided proper legal processes, for the fully intentional purpose of tricking his 'intended' into making a commitment to him and sleeping with him.
The only situation where I might consider people to be married without proper legal formalities is if they were prevented from obtaining that status by something beyond their control... or perhaps if they had a strong conviction against it that was consistent through their entire personal spirituality and theology.
People who avoid it for convenience or any other reason are simply displaying that they are not interested in actually taking on the true commitment of actual marriage -- and as such whatever words they might say about making a marriage commitment are hollow and full of deceit. Those people are just looking for a veil to draw over their "shacking up".
Blot, I agree what you have said, the man was never serious for what he was doing in the relationship. This happened to be my friend. I mean the man naturally couldn't yield any female temptation.
However, from the asian woman side, she had gotten council the american pastor who conducted their ceremony, the pastor told her that ceremony was just a formality, as long as it's not registered with the government. She had completed out of man's life and been has reconciled with God. I mean for God and men, she has done what she could to keep her integrity and maintain her spiritual life. If truly you learn the story from this asian woman, you will know the kind of love God had for her. Thank God the whole ceremony was never documented with the government, otherwise, this issue would become more complicated.
From that man's story, he didn't want to let the asian woman go, wanted to maintain the relationship with her while he already has his wife by him. I mean, I don't have any right to judge this man, the judgment comes from God, but what kind of man of God? He never satisfied with one woman, how he is going to lead the church?
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 11:50:34 PM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline
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[[/quote]
However, as I stated previously, God created the institution of marriage, and it is subject to his dictates, not human secular law. I believe if two people, of the opposite sex, have a ceremony, in which they exchange vows to one another, in front of witnesses, and have this recognized in some form of a contract, then they are married in the eyes of God, regardless of the fact the state does not recognize the union as marriage under state law. So far nobody has provided me any verse in which these two people would not be married in God's eyes.
In fact, for the longest time, this is precisely how two people were married, in the U.S., and from the time of Moses, up to and after Jesus. A marriage license is not necessary for a couple to be married in God's view.
[/quote]
NotreDame, what is your openion and recommendation about the true story I just provided?
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/16/2009 11:56:33 PM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
I do take this position because God says obey the laws of the Land. In this land it says this, this and this are a requirement. Unless THAT is CONTRARY to God's word then we need to follow the law of the land. Getting a marriage license for instance is not in opposition of God's word. now if the government said only homosexual couples could get married, which is CONTRARY to God's word then undocumented marriage would be ok, because there would be no legal way to fill what God intended for man and woman.
G
That's a very good point, I agree you from the biblical point.
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/17/2009 12:05:11 AM
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lhtytlp
Posts: 413
Joined: 6/6/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
If people despise her because a man committed fraud against her and then abandoned her, those people have some serious problems. 
What you said is true, however, some are these are the ones we called Christians as well. I mean my friend was going to hell during that time, truly only God's grace carried her through.
The Bible says, "Truth shall make you free", however, not everyone really love the reality even though they say so.
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and song ....... I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.
Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
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RE: Undocumented marriage - 7/17/2009 12:29:46 AM
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relady
Posts: 759
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
It is rather simple and I have articulated it in post after post. Let's suppose we have two people, a male and female, who are in a church, before witnesses, exchange vows, make promises to each other, and then have a piece of paper, which is signed by the two, signed by witnesses, signed by the person marrying them, dated, and you are telling me they are not married in the eyes of God unless and until the state officially recognizes it? If this is the case, then newlyweds should not have sex until the license has been filed at the courthouse, correct? Because THAT is when it becomes officially "recognized" by the state. Just signing the license doesn't make it "legal". It has to be filed and that can take a few days. So I suppose thousands of newlyweds are still committing fornication on their wedding night? LOLOL.
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