Undocumented marriage (Full Version)

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sueshine30 -> Undocumented marriage (6/22/2009 10:12:57 PM)

Hello everyone,I want to know about your views in undocumented marriage?I felt so confused,I know someone who's a Christian and she had an undocumented marriage officiated by a pastor just because they don't want to commit fornication,they asked a pastor to have an undocumented marriage meaning without the Government's permit.I felt like being judged by seeing my boyfriend and she told me that I have to fix my status first before committing sexual acts with him.but the day before she had that undocumented marriage she already committed sexual act. Can you tell me if she didn't commit a sin or being self righteous?



ta_mosquito -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/22/2009 10:17:59 PM)

Moving from FaithWalk to Morality & Ethics.


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ta_mosquito -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/22/2009 10:20:36 PM)

- There's no law that says you must have a governmental marriage license. Therefore, getting married by a pastor, in front of witnesses, and announcing you're married is OK in my opinion. No sin there.

- Yes, you should be married before indulging in sexual acts.

- She committed a sin by being sexual before marriage.

- I cannot tell if she's being self righteous or not. If she repented of her premarital sex, then chances are she's simply sharing the truth with you. If she is thinking she's better than you for some reason, then she's being hypocritical.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 4:31:25 AM)

Why was the marriage undocumented? Can she *not* obey the law of the land while obeying God, or is she refusing to obey the law of the land?

Her life is seperate from yours. Whether she's self righteous or not it is sin for you to have sex before marriage. If you feel that undocumented marriage is unacceptable, get married properly and save sex for when it's legitimate in God's eyes, *after* the marriage.



rcjames -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 9:42:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

- There's no law that says you must have a governmental marriage license. Therefore, getting married by a pastor, in front of witnesses, and announcing you're married is OK in my opinion. No sin there.


I must post my disagreement with you on this one.

The Pastor does not "Marry" the couple; the pastor only "Officiates" the ceremonial part. The marriage is made legal by the license issued by the State, and the subsequent filing of that completed and signed license in the Court. That is what makes it legal.

No license, no legal marriage, so in my opinion the couple is committing fornication, and the Pastor that preformed the ceremony without a liscense is aiding and abetting that fornication, and will have to answer to God for it.

Thanks
RC



WesP -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 10:01:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

- There's no law that says you must have a governmental marriage license. Therefore, getting married by a pastor, in front of witnesses, and announcing you're married is OK in my opinion. No sin there.


I must post my disagreement with you on this one.

The Pastor does not "Marry" the couple; the pastor only "Officiates" the ceremonial part. The marriage is made legal by the license issued by the State, and the subsequent filing of that completed and signed license in the Court. That is what makes it legal.

No license, no legal marriage, so in my opinion the couple is committing fornication, and the Pastor that preformed the ceremony without a liscense is aiding and abetting that fornication, and will have to answer to God for it.

Thanks
RC


I am certainly no pastor, but I thought this, too. Thanks, RC!



ta_mosquito -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 10:35:58 AM)

There are provisions in the law for getting married without a license. So I would still consider such an act as "legal."

If you get married in a church, merge accounts, change one's name, etc., then even by the law it's a marriage, as far as I know.

I could be wrong. If the law says you MUST have a license, then I agree with you - one should get the license.

But like Maggie said, one person's "undocumented" marriage doesn't mean sex outside of marriage is now OK for another couple.

Edit to add: the longer I think about this, the more I think that I am wrong. [8|] Here in Canada (or is it just Ontario?), you can legally get married without a license by having the banns read in church. Come to think of it, that may be the only provision outside of a license, and the States don't have that provision. So... I could very well be wrong.



bolt. -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 11:26:13 AM)

I think 'undocumented marriage' might might be an option if, say, someone was an illegal immigrant, or perhaps if they were one of those rabid anti-government-al-ists, or if there were some other compelling reason to keep the law at arm's-length... maybe persecution? To me there is a smidgen of space there for really good reasons... maybe.

I don't think a covenant of marriage needs official documentation theologically -- and most places have no laws against co-habitation without an official marriage certificate (so they would not be disobeying the law of the land). But there would have to be some truly compelling reason to keep one's true marital status hidden from the powers that be.

An example that crosses my mind is say, in China during previous harsh persecution, if a person was a known Christian, and as such was in hiding on pain of death/imprisonment... but the person had (by revealing their location), plus the life of the new spouse (by association) and probably the whole extended family of the new spouse too (by association). In such a case, I would consider an undocumented marriage to be an option to be looked at and prayerfully considered.



rcjames -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 12:30:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Edit to add: the longer I think about this, the more I think that I am wrong. [8|] Here in Canada (or is it just Ontario?), you can legally get married without a license by having the banns read in church. Come to think of it, that may be the only provision outside of a license, and the States don't have that provision. So... I could very well be wrong.


ta_mosquito. I did not realize that you were from Canada; so we may very well both be correct.

Some states here in the USA recognize common law marriage, but this in only after a length of time (7 years in some states) of living together and presneting themselves as man and wife.

The legality covers only from the time it is declared, not retroactive to the time they started shacking up.

So they would be living in sin (fornication) until it became legal.

Or at least that is the way I see it.

Thanks
RC



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 12:34:05 PM)

I know there is a church group/homeschool ministry in the USA who refuses to get marriage liscences from the State. Primarily not wanting to share marriage with perverts, as they say, since we seem to be heading towards legal gay marriage rather quickly.

There are some countries that do not legally permit marriage between Muslims and Christians, and to make it more difficult, they do not allow someone to change their religion legally. So if a person converts, they'll still have Muslim on their ID card, and cannot marry someone with Christian on their ID card. In that case, there is no other option but undocumented, "illegal" marriage. [:(]



ta_mosquito -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 12:36:10 PM)

quote:

ta_mosquito. I did not realize that you were from Canada; so we may very well both be correct.

I'm FROM Minnesota. I've lived in Canada for 3.5 years, since I married my wonderful Canadian husband. [8D]



Qtman -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 12:48:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Edit to add: the longer I think about this, the more I think that I am wrong. [8|] Here in Canada (or is it just Ontario?), you can legally get married without a license by having the banns read in church. Come to think of it, that may be the only provision outside of a license, and the States don't have that provision. So... I could very well be wrong.


ta_mosquito. I did not realize that you were from Canada; so we may very well both be correct.

Some states here in the USA recognize common law marriage, but this in only after a length of time (7 years in some states) of living together and presneting themselves as man and wife.
The legality covers only from the time it is declared, not retroactive to the time they started shacking up.

So they would be living in sin (fornication) until it became legal.

Or at least that is the way I see it.

Thanks
RC


I think there are fewer than 20 states that recognize a common law marriage. Just for informational purposes Alabama(My state) and Oklahoma (your state) are among the ones that do.

Contrary to popular belief there is not exact time specified by any of the states that the two should live together. Most just say a significant time. The main requirement is that they hold themsl=elves out to the public as being married, ie, same last name, joint bank accounts and tax returns referring to each other as husband and wife etc.

Law class over.[:D]



Bluethread -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 1:16:14 PM)

Well, in a no-fault, community property state, a "legal" marrage has not effect anyway. Either spouse can act just about any way they want with regard to the marrage and there are no consequences. They can just walk away with half of the assets that they have not already squandered before "seperation". It is a sad state of affairs, pardon the pun. However, the only way to really have a biblical marrage is to have a seperate document and a community that is willing to enforce it. That is if the government will allow it to be enforced.



rcjames -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 2:06:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

Well, in a no-fault, community property state, a "legal" marrage has not effect anyway. Either spouse can act just about any way they want with regard to the marrage and there are no consequences. They can just walk away with half of the assets that they have not already squandered before "seperation". It is a sad state of affairs, pardon the pun. However, the only way to really have a biblical marrage is to have a seperate document and a community that is willing to enforce it. That is if the government will allow it to be enforced.


Yea bluethread most states take a dim view of stoning someone for adultery.

But take heart, with the continuing and growing influence of Islam on our laws that may Change.[8D]

Thanks
RC



Bluethread -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 4:48:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Yea bluethread most states take a dim view of stoning someone for adultery.

But take heart, with the continuing and growing influence of Islam on our laws that may Change.[8D]

Thanks
RC


That is not what I am saying. In many states the adulteror is given half the value of the remaining assets after the adulteror has spent the family savings on the lover. Though adultery is not a factor in determining custody of the children anatomy is. Therefore, if an innocent man wishes to parent their own children, he must follow his estranged adultorious spouse from town to town as she moves to improve her carreer, regardless of any ill effects on his carreer.

More importantly, the state will do little or nothing to encourage responsible parenting and healthy marrages. In fact, many of the government programs encourage divorce. However, a biblical community can take steps to encourage healthy families, if the parties to the marrage are permitted to develop a proper marrage contract and that community takes their role as witnesses to the marrage seriously.

However take heart, with the continuing and growing influence of multiculturalism and license on our laws that change may never take place.



rcjames -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/23/2009 6:11:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Yea bluethread most states take a dim view of stoning someone for adultery.

But take heart, with the continuing and growing influence of Islam on our laws that may Change.[8D]

Thanks
RC


That is not what I am saying. In many states the adulteror is given half the value of the remaining assets after the adulteror has spent the family savings on the lover. Though adultery is not a factor in determining custody of the children anatomy is. Therefore, if an innocent man wishes to parent their own children, he must follow his estranged adultorious spouse from town to town as she moves to improve her carreer, regardless of any ill effects on his carreer.

More importantly, the state will do little or nothing to encourage responsible parenting and healthy marrages. In fact, many of the government programs encourage divorce. However, a biblical community can take steps to encourage healthy families, if the parties to the marrage are permitted to develop a proper marrage contract and that community takes their role as witnesses to the marrage seriously.

However take heart, with the continuing and growing influence of multiculturalism and license on our laws that change may never take place.


You are correct.

Thanks
RC



dbark -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 2:31:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

- There's no law that says you must have a governmental marriage license. Therefore, getting married by a pastor, in front of witnesses, and announcing you're married is OK in my opinion. No sin there.


I must post my disagreement with you on this one.

The Pastor does not "Marry" the couple; the pastor only "Officiates" the ceremonial part. The marriage is made legal by the license issued by the State, and the subsequent filing of that completed and signed license in the Court. That is what makes it legal.

No license, no legal marriage, so in my opinion the couple is committing fornication, and the Pastor that preformed the ceremony without a liscense is aiding and abetting that fornication, and will have to answer to God for it.

Thanks
RC


I definitely agree that a pastor does not "marry" a couple, only officiates the ceremony - where I think our opinions differ is that I believe that means that it is God's domain alone to join a man and woman and make them one flesh (in a spiritual sense - not sexually).

While I have a traditional (legal) marriage and am very happy with my choices, I see no reason to believe that the government has some role in preventing me from committing the sin of fornication. God joins a couple and they are married - whatever the gov't thinks of that - I couldn't care less.

Marriage certificates are nothing but paper. If a man and a woman truly make a promise - a covenant - to one another and to God to be faithful to each other till death, then in my mind they are married and a marriage ceritficate and big expensive church wedding adds nothing but formality and ritual to that covenant.

Obviously, it is the covenant that makes you married and not the certificate.



sueshine30 -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 8:14:25 AM)

Okay here, that pastor was being questioned by other pastors and that undocumented marriage was hidden from US embassy when she was interviewed for a fiancee visa application,how can it be acceptable in Christianity?If it's outside the law how can it be considered for a couple to live as husband and wife without committing fornication?I just cant believe her if she herself committed this, and justified herself from being righteous through this kind of marriage.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 8:45:26 AM)

The marriage being right before God and deliberately hiding one's marital status are two different things. They are not fornicating, but married. But they are sinning in trying to decieve the government for their own benefit. That's hypocritical. It still doesn't release *you* to fornicate. Other people's misbehavior does not justify your own. [;)]

We actually had a situation like that, my husband and I. We gave up on getting a visa, and married in his country. A week later he was calld to the embassy and handed a fiance visa. [8|] When he said "But I just got married! I can't use this" The US embassy said we would just have to go to the States and go through the formalities again. There was no way to get an American wedding "certification" in his country, or to document it in any way while in his country, and there was no "registration" that we had to fill out for his government, but we did not hide that we had already married in the church, during the whole process.



rcjames -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 9:17:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dbark
Marriage certificates are nothing but paper.


And compliance with God's Word on obeying the law.

Thanks
RC



DwB37 -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 6:30:47 PM)

I know this may be a bit off the topic,but I was wondering about the issue of fraudulent marriages with illegal immigrants. I was recently offered such a proposition with a Christian lady from Africa who now lives in America. Long story short,her Visa has long since expired and she must marry a U.S. citizen in order to become legal herself. I was offered $1500 up front and over $2500 more over a 2 year period.
Basically it is a federal offense to marry in such a manner for the sole purpose of gaining citizenship,for both parties. But not paying taxes is in the same category,and that's an option some Christians actually take.

But she really wants this more for her kids so she can bring them over to America. The real problem with this for me was not so much the dishonesty involved but the fact you would have to be married for at least 2 years,though you wouldn't have to live together. But you would have to lie to the immigration officials about this,in order to make it seem like a legit union. Ok, I know the Bible says we are not to lie,but the Ten Commandments is talking about bearing "false witness" AGAINST someone else. And most examples in the New Testament are referring to lying to one another as fellow believers. But taking marriage VOWS is a big problem for me!

Anyway,I personally know of someone who sets these types of "unions" up and has not even come close to being caught. My only question is why aren't the immigration officials at all suspicious of all these marriages between whites and black foreigners.
Apparently they don't care,so then why should I?
Just wondering if anyone could give me any advice that I am not already aware of. Other than being frowned at for even considering this which I have been by those semi-bigoted types. Or maybe I simply need to make up my own mind regardless?
I just need to know I am right in not helping this nice lady in her distress over possibly losing her sons,but then what kind of mother leaves her children behind without any guarantee of ever seeing them again?
Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
DB



GrahamCracker -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 7:09:14 PM)

I cannot say that an undocumented marriage is in and of itself is sin. But it sure makes one wonder. For example, if one of the parties is still legally married, how would the pastor and new partner know?? People do lie. People have enough trouble establishing trust without discovering later on that one of the partners is hiding something like a previous marriage. That's not to mention the papers you have to sign on marriage licenses stating that you are not legally married to someone else. One could skip town and truthfully answer that question, "yes." "Legally" is a critical word.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 7:34:16 PM)

DB - if you're marrying her FOR LIFE (you know, "for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; until death parts us") that's one thing. I won't get into whether that's right or wrong right now.

If you're marrying her for 2 years, DON'T. It's making a mockery of marriage.



rcjames -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 9:17:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

DB - if you're marrying her FOR LIFE (you know, "for better, for worse; for richer, for poorer; until death parts us") that's one thing. I won't get into whether that's right or wrong right now.

If you're marrying her for 2 years, DON'T. It's making a mockery of marriage.


And it is against the law, and probably a sin in the breaking the law part and the deception.

Thanks
RC



rcjames -> RE: Undocumented marriage (6/24/2009 9:21:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

I cannot say that an undocumented marriage is in and of itself is sin. .


I am speaking of in the United Stater here;

Larry do I understand your postion correctly; that two folks can just move in with each other have sex and you do not think that is a sin?

Where I come from shacking up is fornication.

Thanks
RC



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