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1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 9:22:12 AM
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jjbird
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What system of theological checks and balances do you use to determine that the 1,000 yrs in Revelation are literal years? How do determine them being literal theologically?
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 10:32:30 AM
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Montana Marv
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
What system of theological checks and balances do you use to determine that the 1,000 yrs in Revelation are literal years? How do determine them being literal theologically?
If a number is used in the sentence, it can mean nothing other than the number given, not more, not less.
Now for the physical thousand year reign of Christ here on earth, Rev 20: 1-7 mentions "1,000 years" 6 times.
Look at the sentence structure: v2 - Satan bound in the abyss for 1,000 years; v3 - until the 1,000 years have ended; v4 - they came to life and reigned with Christ a 1,000 years; v4 - the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended; v6 -but they will be priests of God and Christ and will reign with him for a 1,000 years; v7 - when the 1,000 years are over Satan will be released from his prison.
If not 1,000 years, How long of a time period is it. Be precise.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 10:49:28 AM
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yohannan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
What system of theological checks and balances do you use to determine that the 1,000 yrs in Revelation are literal years? How do determine them being literal theologically?
This is the lexicon number 5507 which has usage in Revelation 12:6 to signify an exact number of days, even though this number is held to be a potentially non exact quantity in the root form by 'replacement' believers to signify the time periods of the Churches written in Revelation Prophecy in 1-7 to completion.
Chilioi or Chilia.
Chilia is the Lady noun form for one thousand years.
Chilioi is the number for the days of The Word who is Living and Active and sharper than any double edged Sword. This Word tense is for an adjective which modifies and describes a noun, this form signifies the First Resurrection of the Kingdom and Priests who are Blessed with this reward and given the honor of being counted among them among whose numbers include the 144,000 chosen FirstFruits of God chosen from among all peoples, nations, and languages to be reckoned as the fulfillment tribe of the seed of Eve carried forward through the seed of Abraham reckoning in Isaac as sporting and fulfilled in Jesus Christ Messiah. The numbering of the years seems a description for it is the fulfillment of the feast of the FirstFruits in accordance with Moses' Testimony and they are joint rulers along with Christ as well as their reward in Paradise and He is timeless; The First and The Last. For The Lord was sporting to peoples and especially to those among Judea in allowing peoples to vye for this cherished Laurel and Isaiah says that I Will Choose some of these also to be my Priests. For many are called, but few are chosen for some laurels is written in that the vying requirements for testing to become approved are different. That they may be one as We are One and that the love that you Love Me with may be in them and The Father wants to give these the same is the parable for it is His Great Pleasure to give peoples The Kingdom of God at The Right Hand of God and The Power of God in Spirit and in Truth.
The time for the testing for all of the peoples on the earth will be coming soon at the rise of the mark of the number of the name of the false prophet who, along with ten worldwide leaders, implements this as the commerce worship that one cannot take or face the trumpet and seal Judgment desolation decrees as written. This is a struggle of civil proportions worldwide and also for 42 months he will attack Judea and trample it until the Time of the Testimony of The Two Witnesses is fulfilled.
< Message edited by lelseep -- 6/23/2009 6:14:31 PM >
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 12:29:27 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 506
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Montana Marv
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
What system of theological checks and balances do you use to determine that the 1,000 yrs in Revelation are literal years? How do determine them being literal theologically?
If a number is used in the sentence, it can mean nothing other than the number given, not more, not less.
Now for the physical thousand year reign of Christ here on earth, Rev 20: 1-7 mentions "1,000 years" 6 times.
Look at the sentence structure: v2 - Satan bound in the abyss for 1,000 years; v3 - until the 1,000 years have ended; v4 - they came to life and reigned with Christ a 1,000 years; v4 - the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended; v6 -but they will be priests of God and Christ and will reign with him for a 1,000 years; v7 - when the 1,000 years are over Satan will be released from his prison.
If not 1,000 years, How long of a time period is it. Be precise.
In Christ
Montana Marv
I appreciate your response but you did not answer the question.
Psalm 50:9-11
9 I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the creatures of the field are mine.
So does this mean that the cow on the 1001st hill does not belong to God?
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 2:23:56 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
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jjbird, Shalom.
Interesting, as you asked a question about how 1,000 is used in Revelation:
"What system of theological checks and balances do you use to determine that the 1,000 yrs in Revelation are literal years? How do determine them being literal theologically? "
And then you deny the answer by using Psalm 50:
"I appreciate your response but you did not answer the question.
Psalm 50:9-11
9 I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,
10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.
11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the creatures of the field are mine.
So does this mean that the cow on the 1001st hill does not belong to God?"
Perhaps I misread, but me-thinks you forgot what you asked. Both answers, above are correct, using Greek, 'kilaia,' G05507.
Psalm 50:10, on the other hand uses:
"H505
אלף
'eleph"
('al-eph//as//), in conjunction with the word: H3605, 'kole,' which, when used as meaning 'every,' the Aleph stands as a multiple of one, which is 1,000, since the number 100 is designated by using the letter: 'kuph.'
The conglomerate number of one thousand is required by the plurality of Aleph, therefore: One (aleph) thousand (plurality required by (kole)).
Do not hold me to that as an expert, but as a dilettante, learning Hebrew.
In Messiah. Arley
PS: You ask: "So does this mean that the cow on the 1001st hill does not belong to God? " Of course it does, because He didn't count one of the other hills, that didn't have any cows on it.  //as// OH, yes: In Greek the thousand is specific, but as used in the Hebrew, the thousand in Ps 50:10, indicates that it can be any number, and uses the word thousand to indicate 'large' number.//as//
< Message edited by navyblueret -- 6/23/2009 2:33:13 PM >
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 3:33:47 PM
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jjbird
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Never said I denied the answer by using Psalm 50......just wondering if people would take that literally as well.
You still did not answer the question either.
I have a feeling no here will be able too. But I could be wrong
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 3:47:47 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
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jjbird, Shalom.
You say: "You still did not answer the question either. "
I thought I had, but in the PS portion, where I typed:
" ...but as used in the Hebrew, the thousand in Ps 50:10, indicates that it can be any number, and uses the word thousand to indicate 'large' number.//as// "
I realize that the answer is short, but in Hebrew, if I am correct, when using 'thousand,' thousand can mean 'many,' unless used the singular/specific is used. Sorry, I need more learning to respond in a more complicated manor.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 3:59:14 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
What system of theological checks and balances do you use to determine that the 1,000 yrs in Revelation are literal years? How do determine them being literal theologically?
jjbird,
For me, I try to keep things as literal as possible. Usually, through context, it can be derived if literal is improper. When I have doubts remaining, I go to the Greek or Hebrew lexicons to make more sense of it. I am in agreement with Arley on what he has posted concerning the 1000. I am no scholar, but I do not think that God tried to make the bible hard to understand. That is why I choose a literal interpretation first.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 4:09:49 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 506
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
What system of theological checks and balances do you use to determine that the 1,000 yrs in Revelation are literal years? How do determine them being literal theologically?
jjbird,
For me, I try to keep things as literal as possible. Usually, through context, it can be derived if literal is improper. When I have doubts remaining, I go to the Greek or Hebrew lexicons to make more sense of it. I am in agreement with Arley on what he has posted concerning the 1000. I am no scholar, but I do not think that God tried to make the bible hard to understand. That is why I choose a literal interpretation first.
First of all thank you so much for your kind and patient reply.
I think my issue is that people are taking apocalyptic literature in an absolutely wooden literal sense.
I believe the epistles and gospels you can take numbers literally.
It boils down to proper hermeneutics.
I would never take apocalyptic genres of scripture as literal.....to me that is irresponsible.
Just because I do not take it literally does not mean that I do not believe it to be true.
I believe it conveys a spiritual truth that is real.
The ancient Jews so often used numbers to convey ideas and thoughts instead of actual literal amounts of measurements.
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 6:20:46 PM
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yohannan
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Hello navyblueret:
It is my belief that the fulfillment of Psalm 50 regarding the one thousand hills is the joint rulers along with Christ as Priests and Kingdom for one thousand years on the hill at Jerusalem. These are the chosen Martyrs who die in civil commerce or open warfare battle bearing Testimony and the 144,000 chosen; especially for this Honor.
quote:
ORIGINAL: navyblueret
jjbird, Shalom.
You say: "You still did not answer the question either. "
I thought I had, but in the PS portion, where I typed:
" ...but as used in the Hebrew, the thousand in Ps 50:10, indicates that it can be any number, and uses the word thousand to indicate 'large' number.//as// "
I realize that the answer is short, but in Hebrew, if I am correct, when using 'thousand,' thousand can mean 'many,' unless used the singular/specific is used. Sorry, I need more learning to respond in a more complicated manor.
In Messiah. Arley
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 6:52:23 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
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From: S/W Nebraska
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lelseep, Shalom.
You delve into Psalms much deeper than do I. I have begun doing some considering in this realm, but there seems to be so many students of Psalms, I devoted more of my time and energy into the Prophets, and Revelation. Most of what I know about Psalms, I learn from other students. I guess, what I am trying to say, is: Uh, OK, Uh, you are above my thought range with your hypothesis. I kind of understand, but not to a degree where I could discuss intelligently.
I will there-fore set out on this.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 7:25:35 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 2558
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Never said I denied the answer by using Psalm 50......just wondering if people would take that literally as well.
You still did not answer the question either.
I have a feeling no here will be able too. But I could be wrong
You have been answered, but for some reason you don't like the answer, so you are being obstinate.
The answer is of course context. The phrase "the cattle on a thousand hills", as Arley already stated, is a Hebrew expression meaning "unlimited resources". It was an expression known to Jewish readers, and context indicates that it doesn't mean God is limited to only a thousand hills.
When we move forward to the book of Revelation, as Montana Marv already showed you, the number given is 1,000, and it means 1,000. The context doesn't ask for the number to be symbolic, and it isn't a Greek expression.
Question answered.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/23/2009 10:18:48 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Never said I denied the answer by using Psalm 50......just wondering if people would take that literally as well.
You still did not answer the question either.
I have a feeling no here will be able too. But I could be wrong
You have been answered, but for some reason you don't like the answer, so you are being obstinate.
The answer is of course context. The phrase "the cattle on a thousand hills", as Arley already stated, is a Hebrew expression meaning "unlimited resources". It was an expression known to Jewish readers, and context indicates that it doesn't mean God is limited to only a thousand hills.
When we move forward to the book of Revelation, as Montana Marv already showed you, the number given is 1,000, and it means 1,000. The context doesn't ask for the number to be symbolic, and it isn't a Greek expression.
Question answered.
I have not been answered.....Go back and reread my question.
John was a Hebrew writing to a church made up of largely Hebrews using imagery taken from the Hebrew scriptures like Exodus, Daniel, Isaiah & Ezekiel.
The ancient Hebrews at a long history of using numbers for meanings that were not literal. That is a fact!
So it is not unreasonable for exegesis to say that the numbers in Revelation are to be taken figuratively.
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 8:12:57 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 506
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
I have not been answered.....Go back and reread my question.
John was a Hebrew writing to a church made up of largely Hebrews using imagery taken from the Hebrew scriptures like Exodus, Daniel, Isaiah & Ezekiel.
The ancient Hebrews at a long history of using numbers for meanings that were not literal. That is a fact!
So it is not unreasonable for exegesis to say that the numbers in Revelation are to be taken figuratively.
You are correct that Hebrew writers used numbers symbolically at times. However, they also knew how to use real numbers, believe it or not 
There is just no reason to apply symbolism in this case.
But how do you know in this case that the numbers are supposed to be literal? That is what I am trying to figure out from people here and no one can answer me that question.
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 8:50:37 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
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quote:
But how do you know in this case that the numbers are supposed to be literal? That is what I am trying to figure out from people here and no one can answer me that question.
Good morning, jjbird!
Another consideration that I failed to add to my reasons is the frequent use of certain numbers to denote things. For instance, the numbers 7, 40, etc. are used many times to mean very specific things, so when I see those numbers, I consider that while reading the scriptures. Regarding the 1000, it is used both ways, so it is not so concrete at times. It requires more delving. At any rate, this is not a salvic discussioin, so we can disagree without problems.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 9:07:22 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 506
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
But how do you know in this case that the numbers are supposed to be literal? That is what I am trying to figure out from people here and no one can answer me that question.
Good morning, jjbird!
Another consideration that I failed to add to my reasons is the frequent use of certain numbers to denote things. For instance, the numbers 7, 40, etc. are used many times to mean very specific things, so when I see those numbers, I consider that while reading the scriptures. Regarding the 1000, it is used both ways, so it is not so concrete at times. It requires more delving. At any rate, this is not a salvic discussioin, so we can disagree without problems.
Morning Wes
I agree that it is not a salvation issue however an improper view I think can take focus off of God's intention of encouragement of perseverance. We don't want to miss the spiritual lesson by being consumed with when this war is coming and when the 1,000 yr reign will start.....etc
I believe the kingdom is spiritual not not physical.
If we allow the bible to interpret itself genres of scripture that uses imagery we can see that the number 1,000 is not literal.
Just like there is no literal dragon since we all know that dragons do not exist. Just like there are no beasts that resemble a leopard that have feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion! (Rev.13)
They are images to convey ideas and truths but not literal ones.
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 9:38:45 AM
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WesP
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quote:
I believe the kingdom is spiritual not not physical.
If we allow the bible to interpret itself genres of scripture that uses imagery we can see that the number 1,000 is not literal.
Just like there is no literal dragon since we all know that dragons do not exist. Just like there are no beasts that resemble a leopard that have feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion! (Rev.13)
They are images to convey ideas and truths but not literal ones.
I will be pondering this thread today. For some reason, it captures my interest.
Regarding the kingdom, am I understanding you correctly in saying that there will be no physical existence after the Judgment? If that is so, why will our bodies be resurected? Granted, they will be changed, but to completely disregard a dimension that has been a focus for quite some time seems incorrect. Perhaps, I am mistaken.
Hopefully, I will have something further to add later.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 9:45:12 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 506
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
I believe the kingdom is spiritual not not physical.
If we allow the bible to interpret itself genres of scripture that uses imagery we can see that the number 1,000 is not literal.
Just like there is no literal dragon since we all know that dragons do not exist. Just like there are no beasts that resemble a leopard that have feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion! (Rev.13)
They are images to convey ideas and truths but not literal ones.
I will be pondering this thread today. For some reason, it captures my interest.
Regarding the kingdom, am I understanding you correctly in saying that there will be no physical existence after the Judgment? If that is so, why will our bodies be resurected? Granted, they will be changed, but to completely disregard a dimension that has been a focus for quite some time seems incorrect. Perhaps, I am mistaken.
Hopefully, I will have something further to add later.
That brings up another question........what makes you think that Revelation is primarily about end time events?
At the beginning of the book and the end of the book John says these things are going to happen soon or near.
He would have been lying to the first century church if he was speaking primarily about something to happen thousands of years later and besides how would that encourage the Christians undergoing immense persecution by Rome by telling them that thousands and thousands of years from now Jesus will triumph?
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 9:49:40 AM
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ta_mosquito
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jjbird - are you a preterist?
If so, you may ONLY discuss your end-time views in the "All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread."
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 9:55:15 AM
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WesP
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quote:
He would have been lying to the first century church if he was speaking primarily about something to happen thousands of years later and besides how would that encourage the Christians undergoing immense persecution by Rome by telling them that thousands and thousands of years from now Jesus will triumph?
I do not see it that way. He speaks to the Christians of an eternity in heaven. He speaks from the viewpoint of God, so the timeframe is not necessarily mandated as our view of time. John also clarified to the Christians that they had not missed the second coming. He made sure they knew that Christ is coming back. That was their reassurance. Most of Revelation is viewed as future to us because many signs have not been fulfilled. Without them, subsequent actions will not occur.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 9:56:50 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
jjbird - are you a preterist?
If so, you may ONLY discuss your end-time views in the "All Preterism All The Time - One Stop Thread."
I am a spiritualist who tends to lean towards the historical background view.
Neither a preterist or a futurist
< Message edited by jjbird -- 6/24/2009 10:05:57 AM >
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 10:00:51 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
He would have been lying to the first century church if he was speaking primarily about something to happen thousands of years later and besides how would that encourage the Christians undergoing immense persecution by Rome by telling them that thousands and thousands of years from now Jesus will triumph?
I do not see it that way. He speaks to the Christians of an eternity in heaven. He speaks from the viewpoint of God, so the timeframe is not necessarily mandated as our view of time. John also clarified to the Christians that they had not missed the second coming. He made sure they knew that Christ is coming back. That was their reassurance. Most of Revelation is viewed as future to us because many signs have not been fulfilled. Without them, subsequent actions will not occur.
How do you know they have not been fulfilled? And how do you know they are signs about the future to begin with?
Just curious......I am not saying you are wrong but just curious how you can be sure just like I am curious how people can know that the number 1,000 is without a doubt absolutely meant to be taken literally.
When taken literally it creates a bunch of holes in the theology that is one reason there is a red flag when I see people take it literally.
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 10:05:50 AM
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Montana Marv
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
But how do you know in this case that the numbers are supposed to be literal? That is what I am trying to figure out from people here and no one can answer me that question.
Good morning, jjbird!
Another consideration that I failed to add to my reasons is the frequent use of certain numbers to denote things. For instance, the numbers 7, 40, etc. are used many times to mean very specific things, so when I see those numbers, I consider that while reading the scriptures. Regarding the 1000, it is used both ways, so it is not so concrete at times. It requires more delving. At any rate, this is not a salvic discussioin, so we can disagree without problems.
Morning Wes
I agree that it is not a salvation issue however an improper view I think can take focus off of God's intention of encouragement of perseverance. We don't want to miss the spiritual lesson by being consumed with when this war is coming and when the 1,000 yr reign will start.....etc
I believe the kingdom is spiritual not not physical.
If we allow the bible to interpret itself genres of scripture that uses imagery we can see that the number 1,000 is not literal.
Just like there is no literal dragon since we all know that dragons do not exist. Just like there are no beasts that resemble a leopard that have feet like a bear and a mouth like a lion! (Rev.13)
They are images to convey ideas and truths but not literal ones.
jjbird
All is not spiritual, Much is physical. Look at Zech 8:3 This is what the Lord Almighty says: I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem. Then Jerusalem will be called the City of Truth and the mountain of the Lord Almighty will be called the Holy Mountain. and then v22. And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him.
The Lord Almighty will Dwell in Jerusalem, Physically. So when is Christs Return. He came the first time Physically. so shall He come the second time Physically. How long does He physically reign here on earth at Jerusalem: Look at Rev 20: 4c - They came to life and reigned with Christ 1,000 years, and v6. - and will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
Now look at 1 Thes 4: 17b - And so we will be with the Lord forever, v18. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now forever is a very, very, very long time. But 1,000 years is just that, a 1,000 years.
In Christ
Montana Marv
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RE: 1,000 years literal or figurative? Why? - 6/24/2009 10:22:36 AM
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WesP
Posts: 1440
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
How do you know they have not been fulfilled? And how do you know they are signs about the future to begin with?
Just curious......I am not saying you are wrong but just curious how you can be sure just like I am curious how people can know that the number 1,000 is without a doubt absolutely meant to be taken literally.
When taken literally it creates a bunch of holes in the theology that is one reason there is a red flag when I see people take it literally.
I know because Christ is not here now in a physical sense. If you demand a spiritual existence, I still have to require what is promised in Revelation. I do not have it as yet, so it cannot be past. Even if you spiritualize everything there, tell me how those things have come to pass. This existence is nothing like what the bible tells us existence in heaven will be. If all had come to pass, this existence would not be possible.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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