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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 1:30:18 PM
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IwillseekHim
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bolt, that is just what i need. I will go check it out. Its kinda hard to follow through when a post comes thru with abbreviations I do not understand. Your brilliant in the way you help people around here, just want you to know. Now, i wont feel so computer illiterate, KWIM??? thank you
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 1:41:18 PM
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kohls356
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I have this book and need to read it because I want to see the movie as well. I don't know if this book is based on a true story or not. I do remember seeing a movie that is based on a true story where a couple had another child in hopes that she would be able to be a bone marrow donor to cure their other daughters leukemia. Their names were Anissa and Marissa Ayala.
I guess for me this is one those things I just don't know what I would do unless in that situation. Right now I do not think I would go through having a "genetically engineered" child to save another. If we had exhausted all other possibilities I might consider having another child but I just don't know.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 1:53:34 PM
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laura...
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This isn't fiction for my family. My husband's great nephew was born without an immune system. His parents chose to have another baby as soon as possible in order to provide a bone marrow donor. Only a sibling would be a close enough match. That was 9 years ago. Both children are thriving. They are very close. Little sister knows that her bone marrow saved her brother's life. From the time she was old enough to understand, she's known the truth. The two are very close. I've never seen any evidence that she feels any less loved or any less wanted.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 2:14:30 PM
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BlessedMamaofmany
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off topic, but I apologize Iwill. I'll be more prudent in the future with explaining my acronyms.
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Atheism: The belief that there was nothing, nothing happened to nothing, then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits that then turned into dinosaurs
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 2:22:09 PM
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Sideways
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I don't think they harvest from a newborn. They generally wait at least a few months, maybe more, unless the need is dire. It's still rough, but I can't bring myself to judge anyone who would do it. It would be an option "on the table" for me, but I can't say what I would absolutely do.
I'm glad to hear the children are doing well, Kath.
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 2:35:22 PM
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W.O.F.
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hmmm...tough one.
Obviously for me, I would not deliberately conceive a child to save another one...but then I have 5 kids so far so what are the odds that one of them would not match another one anyway (especially since all 5 have the same blood type anyway....)
As for having a child donate....that is tough. I think if they are old enough to make the decision with you...fine. If they were too young to understand...I'd almost rather it be done when they are really young (under 2) simply because there is less pain for them to remember later, and yet they can still feel wonderful about helping their family....in this case I am talking about bone marrow donation.
Organ transplants? that is tough. I'd rather become a living donor for my kids if possible for liver (they only take part of the liver...it grows by itself)...and kidney...no problem...the thing there is...an adult organ in a child can stunt a child..whereas a child organ "grows" with its recipient and does not affect growth pattern as much.
This is a tough one...I remember reading their story in Reader's Digest....and having a hard time with it at that time for a couple of reasons:
1) Having a child to save another child. No matter how you put it, that is putting one child in front of another.
2) The assumption that a new child could help with the loss of another child if things didn't work out.....NO child can ever replace another child. I think you keep on keeping on because you have other children...but they never take each other's places.
and I just thought of a third:
It opens the doors for so much in the way of testing to see if unborn baby matches, and then if not.......
I don't know.
I think it is easy to sit here in the armchair and "command the army"....
but having had a child who was chronically ill for several years when he was younger...I don't think I would or could have a baby just to save him.
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 2:59:47 PM
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laura...
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quote:
As for having a child donate....that is tough. I think if they are old enough to make the decision with you...fine. If they were too young to understand...I'd almost rather it be done when they are really young (under 2) simply because there is less pain for them to remember later, and yet they can still feel wonderful about helping their family....in this case I am talking about bone marrow donation.
Would it be better to have to explain a brother or sister's death because you didn't donate their bone marrow?
I would never donate one child's organs to save the other. There are more options when it comes to organ transplants anyway. But, bone marrow has to be a much closer match especially when treating a total lack of immune system. While harvesting the bone marrow is painful at the time, it's temporary and won't harm the donor.
quote:
1) Having a child to save another child. No matter how you put it, that is putting one child in front of another.
2) The assumption that a new child could help with the loss of another child if things didn't work out.....NO child can ever replace another child. I think you keep on keeping on because you have other children...but they never take each other's places.
I would suspect that in most cases, having another child to save a child is a matter of timing -- deciding when to have another child as apposed to if you have another child.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 3:12:26 PM
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W.O.F.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
As for having a child donate....that is tough. I think if they are old enough to make the decision with you...fine. If they were too young to understand...I'd almost rather it be done when they are really young (under 2) simply because there is less pain for them to remember later, and yet they can still feel wonderful about helping their family....in this case I am talking about bone marrow donation.
Would it be better to have to explain a brother or sister's death because you didn't donate their bone marrow?
I would never donate one child's organs to save the other. There are more options when it comes to organ transplants anyway. But, bone marrow has to be a much closer match especially when treating a total lack of immune system. While harvesting the bone marrow is painful at the time, it's temporary and won't harm the donor.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying...I was saying that I would rather it be done before they were old enough to remember the pain if they were too young to understand......not that I wouldn't do it....and one has to really weigh all the costs anyway. Bone marrow donors often get infections that can be fatal...what if you lost both children? Not something to ever take lightly.
quote:
quote:
1) Having a child to save another child. No matter how you put it, that is putting one child in front of another.
2) The assumption that a new child could help with the loss of another child if things didn't work out.....NO child can ever replace another child. I think you keep on keeping on because you have other children...but they never take each other's places.
I would suspect that in most cases, having another child to save a child is a matter of timing -- deciding when to have another child as apposed to if you have another child.
Perhaps...but in the case of this Ayella family...it was having a child TO save her...they were not planning on having any others until their then teenage daughter got deathly ill.
That said...they honestly do love their youngest daughter....and see her as a person in her own right.....
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 4:26:45 PM
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Sideways
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And I don't think anyone can say that it's better for that child to never have been born, considering she did save her sister's life, she can't remember any pain, and she is dearly loved and cherished by her entire family. Her sister can never have children due to her illness and has said that her sister 16 years younger then herself is like the daughter she will never bear.
_____________________________
Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. If you see a crocodile, don't forget to scream.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 4:30:38 PM
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laura...
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Jesus was conceived for the sole purpose of saving others.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 4:34:43 PM
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W.O.F.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
Jesus was conceived for the sole purpose of saving others.
yea...and it was GOD who decided that....not Jesus' earthly parents. I can't see any of us killing one of our children deliberately in order to save another one......nor will I put ANY of us in the same "worth" bracket as Jesus in that respect.....or as God in the parental aspect.
Like I said...when I read their story years ago...It bothered me and why. But...no one would wish her to not be here..and she did save her older sister...but the question is could I have a baby whose sole purpose (beyond being my child and being loved) is to save a sibling?
I don't know.
I don't know if I could plan out an unconceived child's life like that....
but as I also said.....it is easy to say "yes I would" or "no I wouldn't" when we are sitting in the armchair commanding the armies and not in the actual battle itself.....
Do I think they did the wrong thing? Not necessarily...just that it raises issues...and not a choice I am sure I would make......
_____________________________
Live your life in such a way that when your feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh no, she's awake."
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 4:51:30 PM
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sharonjef2007
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What are the other reasons for having a child though? What makes those reasons any different then this one? I would not call it selfish unless I were conceiving to save myself. And, there are a lot more selfish reasons to have a child then to potentially save another.
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my blog......Picture This.......
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 5:29:43 PM
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sharonjef2007
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Deciding to have a child could be as simple as timing sex as to maximize the chances of concieving. There are no guarantees EVER in regards to having children or not.
If handled properly, I don't see where this is an issue. If you "got pregnant" by happenstance when another child got sick and they could be a donor, would that make a difference?
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 5:30:00 PM
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JLovely
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Hi OneofHisJewels,
Thanks for the welcome and for cluing me in.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 5:45:52 PM
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10SNE1?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
What are the other reasons for having a child though? What makes those reasons any different then this one? I would not call it selfish unless I were conceiving to save myself. And, there are a lot more selfish reasons to have a child then to potentially save another.
I was thinking the same thing Sharon. How many people do you know who really only planned on having/wanted two kids but ended up with three because they were "trying for a boy"?
I would think that a child would much rather know that they were conceived in an attempt to save a life than to know that they were only necessary because baby number two was the "wrong" type...and think how baby number 2 feels. I have heard plenty of people say...well, we were only planning on two but Joe really wanted his boy.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 5:56:11 PM
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10SNE1?
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I'm not sure that I agree that this is a totally moot point for the QF families.
Would you cease BFing in order to speed up the return to fertility? Would you "try harder" to conceive? Does being QF mean that you are never purposeful in your attempts to have a child? Is it not being QF to chart one's cycle and take advantage of this knowledge of your cycle?
I honestly don't know, just asking 
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 6:35:44 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
Does being QF mean that you are never purposeful in your attempts to have a child?
Yes. For us it's openness, not attempts, either "to get" or "not to get". And we are living proof that oppenness to a lot of babies does not mean you'll get them, even with plenty of "opportunity". (I was told by someone with a misunderstanding of QF that I was sinning by nursing my babies because that caused infertility.  1. Not true, certainly not something to rely on if you want to avoid conception, and 2. My fertility did come back while I was still nursing pretty much full time anyway. It just took a long, long time. Much longer than I would have preferred, given my way.)
*If* God gave us another baby and *if* that baby was a match in some way for another sick child, I'd still be very unhappy about the prospect of using that child (because it is using them) and unwilling to do it unless it was absolutely the only alternative to death. Choosing to do so I would consider choosing an evil, but a lesser one than letting the other child die. I cannot imagine, were I deciding when to have children or not, or if I were "done" to decide to have just one more for the express purpose of using their body, particularly without their consent, for the benefit of another child. It is just very hard to wrap my head around that. 
quote:
I have heard plenty of people say...well, we were only planning on two but Joe really wanted his boy.
Different issue, but I think this is also kind of, eh...how to say it without being mean. Maybe it bothers me more because people *assume* that our third was our last try for a girl.  To me, that also smacks of selfishness in a big way.  Since when are children commodities to meet our needs and desires, even if our needs and desires are perfectly reasonable?
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The Ballad of Bad Biruk
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 6:42:56 PM
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bolt.
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I don't see it as 'using' the child. I see it as ensuring that they are doing the right thing, before they are old enough to know it is the right thing.
It's odd to me to think: "The baby has a choice between a moral act and an immoral act. Since the baby is too young to consent to the moral act, the right thing to do is to default to the immoral choice."
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Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 6:58:02 PM
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bolt.
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The idea that a new child might be of critical assistance to an older child's health might be a motivating factor, but it would never be the sole-and-only reason that a parent would choose to conceive. I believe that to be psychologically impossible (unless the parent ware profoundly dysfunctional). Everybody knows that babies are family members. They have advantages and drawbacks, so (many) people choose based on a variety of factors.
If a man in old-times had a farm that would take 3 men to farm, then he would want 2 sons, and he would go about conceiving them -- does that mean they were born as his slaves? No, it would just mean that he expected that his family members would be contributors to the family's good, and that his sons would very likely grow up to be helpful in the fields. It's fair enough. If he had a bigger farm, maybe he'd want 4 sons, if it was small, maybe only one, so there would be no contention of inheritance. Maybe he gets more land, so he goes ahead with some extra conceptions.
People make practical decisions about conception all the time. The donor-and-beloved-baby is no more utilitarian than those other reasons.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 8:16:23 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JLovely
Hi OneofHisJewels,
Thanks for the welcome and for cluing me in.
sure 
quote:
I'm glad to hear the children are doing well, Kath.
Actually, that post was from Laura.
Even though I am not QF, this is an area where I think the QFers and myself end up on the same page. Children are NOT commodities.
ETA...that is I agree with the QF families (namely Sandy and Maggie) who have posted here...who both agree that children aren't commodites...I have met QF families IRL who think that the more kids they have the more spiritual they are and if they have 7 kids they're better than people w/2, and if they have 11, they're better than people with 7..now THAT mentality IS viewing children as a commodity. It was actually the only type of QF people I'd ever met before coming here...so Sandy and Maggie's way of being QF was a breath of fresh air.
I guess I get a little more irate about these issues because I have a disabled sister.
Taking my 3 sisters and myself....let's use a "what if" scenario..
I'm the second of four girls (that's a fact)...now, let's do some fiction...
Let's just say that before my youngest sister was born, that my older sister had lukemia (she never did, but let's use our imaginations)...then let's say that the reason my parents had my youngest sister was to be a bone marrow match (although it wasn't). Then let's say my youngest sister came out like she did (disabled---that's a fact, she really IS disabled). If my parents' reasoning for having her had been to save another child's life (although it wasn't..but we're using imagination here), and then my sister came out disabled (that part of the story is TRUE), how do you think my parents would have felt?
< Message edited by OneOfHisJewels -- 6/24/2009 8:34:06 PM >
_____________________________
Wizard's rule #1 .People can be stupid and willfully deceived (that's from the book, not the show)..slightly edited for CW
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 8:34:40 PM
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bolt.
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From: Canada
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I expect they'd feel like now they had two challenges instead of one
If they had good theology, maybe they would come around to the idea that perhaps God had a lot of respect for their parenting abilities. If they had bad theolgy, perhaps they would be thinking God was punishing them.
I don't know that they would have had any particular feelings aside from the double portion of grief, that what might have been a double-joy (baby & cure) was instead the usual grief of a disabled baby, plus the diminished hope for help for the other sister. (But perhaps a disabled baby could still be a donor?) So, perhaps somewhat more grief than if they just went on to their fourth child with no particular hope.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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