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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 8:38:04 PM
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10SNE1?
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
People make practical decisions about conception all the time. The donor-and-beloved-baby is no more utilitarian than those other reasons.
Agreed! Just today I had lunch with a friend whose son-in-law is deployed to Iraq. Both her dd and SIL are very young and haven't been married long. My friend was telling me that the pressure on her daughter from other Marine wives to have a baby is intense. DD says there is this, often-spoken, mentality that one should have a child " just in case" the worst happens, so as to have something of your husband to carry on.
I also know a couple who had a baby after he admitted to an extra-marital affair. The baby was meant to strengthen their commitment in the reconciliation process.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 8:38:28 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
So, perhaps somewhat more grief than if they just went on to their fourth child with no particular hope.
Yeah, and why put yourself through that? I clearly remember they were grieved enough as it was. Don't get me wrong, they've been the best parents to her a disabled child could ask for, but they were greatly grieved and shocked at the beginning.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 8:44:47 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 10SNE1?
quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
People make practical decisions about conception all the time. The donor-and-beloved-baby is no more utilitarian than those other reasons.
Agreed! Just today I had lunch with a friend whose son-in-law is deployed to Iraq. Both her dd and SIL are very young and haven't been married long. My friend was telling me that the pressure on her daughter from other Marine wives to have a baby is intense. DD says there is this, often-spoken, mentality that one should have a child " just in case" the worst happens, so as to have something of your husband to carry on.
I also know a couple who had a baby after he admitted to an extra-marital affair. The baby was meant to strengthen their commitment in the reconciliation process.
That's why I don't agree with having a child for any of those reasons..as I said before..not to have a a boy, not to have a girl..not to strengthen a marriage.....none of that..only to give a child love, and to teach them God's love..you can plan to love your child and teach them about God (though, yes, I know, they can turn from God)...but all other plans can fall through.
_____________________________
Wizard's rule #1 .People can be stupid and willfully deceived (that's from the book, not the show)..slightly edited for CW
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 11:05:09 PM
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sharonjef2007
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Ok, here is a problem I'm having with the "using" or "commodity" issue..... It is said by many on here that EVERY child that is concieved was done so because God made it so. He did it. Every child is a blessing and a gift from God, even if the child is concieved through some type of sin (premarital sex, rape, ect)
So, say a couple has a child who needs a donor of some sort. They try to conceive a child in order to have a donor for the first. If they do concieve, doesn't that mean that God is making that child, just like every other? Is there really that big of difference? What if God meant for that 2nd child to be a help to the first?
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 11:13:01 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
The idea that a new child might be of critical assistance to an older child's health might be a motivating factor, but it would never be the sole-and-only reason that a parent would choose to conceive. I believe that to be psychologically impossible (unless the parent ware profoundly dysfunctional). Everybody knows that babies are family members. They have advantages and drawbacks, so (many) people choose based on a variety of factors.
A woman in our bible study is a pediatric oncology nurse, she will tell you that it has, in fact, been the SOLE purpose of conceiving for more then one family that she has seen/known.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 11:22:34 PM
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sharonjef2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
The idea that a new child might be of critical assistance to an older child's health might be a motivating factor, but it would never be the sole-and-only reason that a parent would choose to conceive. I believe that to be psychologically impossible (unless the parent ware profoundly dysfunctional). Everybody knows that babies are family members. They have advantages and drawbacks, so (many) people choose based on a variety of factors.
A woman in our bible study is a pediatric oncology nurse, she will tell you that it has, in fact, been the SOLE purpose of conceiving for more then one family that she has seen/known.
Does that automatically mean though that the child is less loved or of less worth?
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/24/2009 11:54:54 PM
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bolt.
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So, if the sole purpose of the conception is for donation, then those parents won't mind sending the baby to the hospital incinerator once their job is done? Or perhaps it will be 'OK' to keep the child, since it's there, and it's been useful?
Maybe it can have a bedroom in the closet under the stairs like Harry Potter?
No -- there is a difference between "primary motivation" and "sole purpose" -- no matter what the motivation, I expect all parents who do this have the purpose of having another small person join their family as a regular child just like their other children. This person will be a help, even a life saver, and the parents may not have tried to conceived him/her if that had not been the case -- but all of them acknowledge that the new baby will have a place and a life's purpose that goes beyond that. (Mental illness not-withstanding.)
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 3:29:38 AM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
Ok, here is a problem I'm having with the "using" or "commodity" issue..... It is said by many on here that EVERY child that is concieved was done so because God made it so. He did it. Every child is a blessing and a gift from God, even if the child is concieved through some type of sin (premarital sex, rape, ect)
So, say a couple has a child who needs a donor of some sort. They try to conceive a child in order to have a donor for the first. If they do concieve, doesn't that mean that God is making that child, just like every other? Is there really that big of difference? What if God meant for that 2nd child to be a help to the first?
But NO ONE on these threads EVER said the rape or incest (or whatever bad circumstance) in and of itself was good....and this thread really isn't about if a CHILD conceived for the sake of another child is valuable...of course that child still has great value in God's sight, and I don't think anyone here would deny that...but this thread isn't really about if such a child is valuable or not...this thread is about a DECISION that would be made by parents (or not, as the case may be).
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Wizard's rule #1 .People can be stupid and willfully deceived (that's from the book, not the show)..slightly edited for CW
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 6:20:35 AM
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10SNE1?
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Not to give away too much of the story for those who have not yet read the book/seen the movie but:
While I thought it was a good beach read, the points BOLT make are exactly why I didn't think the book was all that realistic. In the book, the mom really does seem to look at this second ( third in this case) child as "spare parts".
I suppose it is possible that the grief of a dying child would cause enough psychiatric trauma as to totally override any sense of reason regarding most courses of action/treatment.
However, I think "maternal instinct" would prevent the extremes portrayed in this work of fiction. And that is why so many people don't have a problem with this. In real life,these children are loved and cherished by their parents. They are not looked at as "a means to an end" or without worth and value in their own right.
That is the reality that many observed when they have actually known a real-life family which made the decision to conceive again under these circumstances
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 6:25:22 AM
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Memaw.
Posts: 1581
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sharonjef2007
Ok, here is a problem I'm having with the "using" or "commodity" issue..... It is said by many on here that EVERY child that is concieved was done so because God made it so. He did it. Every child is a blessing and a gift from God, even if the child is concieved through some type of sin (premarital sex, rape, ect)
So, say a couple has a child who needs a donor of some sort. They try to conceive a child in order to have a donor for the first. If they do concieve, doesn't that mean that God is making that child, just like every other? Is there really that big of difference? What if God meant for that 2nd child to be a help to the first?
In the book My Sisters Keeper, the parents have a "designer baby" genetically manipulated to match the DNA profile needed, then implanted solely for the purpose of using that child to help the ill child.
That is what I would never have considered doing.
Is it really God who created at that point or what?
I'm not really sure what I believe regarding that.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 8:59:17 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
this thread is about a DECISION that would be made by parents (or not, as the case may be).
Exactly.
For someone who is fine with controlling their own fertility, is it then ethical then for them to concieve another child only because they need a genetic match for another child? "We're done! No more for us!.....Ooops, first kid is sick, lets see if we can make a match for him with a baby".  That means another child would have been unwanted, but for it's potential to fix an already born child. And what do you do if this otherwise unwanted child cannot, for some reason, fix the problem? I don't believe for a second that in every case it would be "Oh well, we tried", when the original motivation was so entirely selfish. If they didn't consider the needs of the child they were trying to concieve in the first place, why would they suddenly be selfless and happy with that child when their plan for it's use failed?
Any child concieved would be created by God, and valued by God, IMO.  That's not the issue. God works all kinds of good from all kinds of evil.
The issue is the heart attitude of the parents in making such a decision. If you believe you are in control of conception or not, can you then ethically make a decision that would result in pain and danger for a new child because some part of that child's anatomy is needed for the medical issues of another child? And what if the only way is to do genetic manipulation before implantation of that baby? What happens if in utero it's discovered that the baby is not a match? Abortion? Have that one, be disappointed, and try for a baby who's "right"?
< Message edited by 3cappuccinosmom -- 6/25/2009 9:06:58 AM >
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 9:17:46 AM
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bolt.
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Well, I would still do it, even though we are currently 'done' (and fixed), and I don't think I would be feeling or acting in those terrible ways.
There is no reason any child would be unwanted in my home, just because I'm currently comfortable with what I've got, and would be most content if it stayed that way. If somebody's life is in danger my 'most content' goes out the window and a new child is more than welcome. The medical situation is nothing more than an extra prod to up my family size and enjoy another adventure of parenting the new child that I might have otherwise missed out on.
Lots of parents deeply love the 'ooops I thought we were fixed' baby that graces their home unexpectedly. Perhaps some truly are unwanted -- but most are welcomed with open arms, even though the conception was undesirable at first. I think this is the most likely scenario to compare real life scenarios to, rather than the spare-parts model.
This was supposed to be a 'what would you do' thread, and I think it's my fault that we're now in a debate. I'll try to back it off after this one... Really, I will.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 9:20:51 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
For someone who is fine with controlling their own fertility, is it then ethical then for them to concieve another child only because they need a genetic match for another child?
Not ethical for me, or any of the people in our bible study. We talked about it last night, lol.
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Ryanne- trying hard to be my husband's girlfriend and my daughter's mother.
I'll keep my guns, freedom, and money- you can keep "the change."
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 9:29:34 AM
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Sideways
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I would view it as unethical under the "spare parts" scenario, if the child was unloved or unwanted. If the child was loved and cherished for who they were and not for their DNA, then I find it hard to condemn the couple.
Like Pam said, lots of parents have another child after they think they are done, but circumstances change, life happens. So maybe the baby is born to be a match to their sibling, but after the donation they can still be treated like a wonderful addition to the family, even if they were unplanned by their human parents.
I mean, I was unplanned, too, but my parents have always been wonderful to me. I was never treated as less wanted or loved then my brother who most certainly was planned.
And I did say in the OP that I wasn't even asking about those who would keep aborting until they got the right one, just if you would try and have another baby.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 9:34:57 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
A baby concieved for medical reasons is not an "oops". It's a person deliberately created to use for the benefit of another person. A child who would not be wanted otherwise.
I think we're going in circles here. Children who are oops babies (like me) might fall under the "would not be wanted" banner, but their parents see them as blessings.
Donor children can also be viewed as blessings, and not just for their DNA. Parents who never planned on a 3rd child most often will love that baby to the ends of the Earth, regardless of the circumstances that brought that child into the world, whether it was cancer or an "oops".
I think it's all on how that baby is treated, not the reason they were conceived.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 9:39:46 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
People aren't always lackadaisical and easily mollified when their plans go awry, either, whether that's a baby born after they think they are done, or a "savior" baby who turns out to be unable to save anybody.
Well sure, and if parents are having another baby to "try for a boy" the same sort of argument applies. I don't have an issues with parents having another baby hoping for a boy, as long as they are willing to joyfully accept a girl, too.
If the parents of a kid with cancer have another baby, hoping for a match, are still willing to love and cherish a baby who isn't a match, then I don't see a huge problem.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 9:42:19 AM
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bolt.
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Both the 'ooops' baby and the intentionally conceived for medical reasons baby are equally 'unwanted' before conception. In many cases both are equally welcome after the fact. (Yes, and cherished!)
(In some cases of either situation, dysfunction occurs.)
How about this situation: A fertility-management family runs into this no-donor-match situation, and thinks, "Well, my QF friend has 7 children, and if this happened to them, I bet they'd not have a problem finding a match, and if they didn't have one yet, well, a match would come along eventually." So, then seeing that perhaps God designed large families with lots of siblings to have this advantage, so then they think that large families must be an important part of God's plan. That leads them to decide QF is for them, and they go on to have 3 to 12 more kids, one of whom turned out to be the desirable match.
Where do the motives differ from the spare-parts conception plan?
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Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 9:45:06 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
How do you cherish a person you didn't want originally, and only want to meet a specific requirement?
Seems easy to me, actually. Before a third baby was only a concept, an idea. Now it's a living child in your arms, staring into your eyes.
People adjust to a new set of circumstances and quickly can't imagine life without their newest addition. Doesn't seem at all hard to imagine.
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RE: Conceiving one child to save another - 6/25/2009 9:50:08 AM
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Sideways
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So, I ask my husband...
Me: Do you want a third child?
dH: No, not really.
Me: If I did get pregnant, would you love that child and care for him as you do Nathan and Beth?
dH: Of course I would.
And he would, there's no dichotomy at all in his opinions/feelings.
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