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Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 9:28:38 AM
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TMeeks
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This aspect of how to interact with people who have hurt us is a bit different from the question of what constitutes forgiveness. But, it's equally important. And, that is the difference between forgiveness and trust.
When a person hurts us, it's usually because in some way that have betrayed our trust. So, not only do we have anger and hurt toward the person, they also lose our trust.
We can sometimes wonder why we still don't trust a person when we say we have forgiven them. And, we may think that means our forgiveness was not complete. But, that isn't the case at all. Trust is a separate quality. It is part of being prudent.
In a few years, a man that severely betrayed the trust of many, many caring people and myself will be getting out of jail for molesting a young eight year old girl. Having grown up in the church he knows the language of repentence, very, very well. And, in the past, he used that to manipulate those trying to help him.
When he comes out, he knows he needs help and I'm sure will express great remorse for the hurt he has caused and ask for forgivess... and, help to restart his life. But, will it be real? Only time will tell as the fruit of God's Spirit will either be demonstrated over time or not. So, when and how can trust be rebuilt even if all who were wounded by this man's betrayal of their earlier help have forgiven him?
Do we lack forgiveness because we do not instantly trust? This is certainly going to be his position. Or, does prudence dictate a more cautious stance? It's a tough call because not helping a sincere person might kill their chances for complete restorationa and helping an insincere person only enables their continued sin. 
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 11:19:29 AM
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URForgiven
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Would anyone allow their own 8 yr old girl to be alone with this man? Ever? This is the true test.
I couldn't care less how much good fruit he exhibits, what all interpreted as good fruit before he was caught, didn't turn out to be too good now did it? Anyone can fake good fruit. But, bad fruit, now who is going to fake that? And his fruit has been shown to be bad indeed.
He may well be restored to God, as God saves sinners. But, this man has lost his right to be trusted, at least by man.
Peace
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are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 11:48:32 AM
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navyblueret
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TMeeks, Shalom.
Complete forgiveness is difficult to accomplish. How would you have 'him' treat you? (I just canceled paragraphs of advice, and council)
You need to go to Jesus, and let the Holy Spirit guide you, and strengthen you, for the trial you are about to endure.
In Messiah, His Strength, and my prayers. Arley
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 12:25:37 PM
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LCannon
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"Talk is cheap show me your faith without obedience and I will show you my faith by my obedience." James 2:17,18
The only way trust is garnered is in the future looking forward. Forgiveness occurs in the past that leaves the present where we live. Prudence takes all those considerations, fears, dangers, growth potential and vulnerabilities into account. What kind of stance should prudence take? We(I wouldn't)shouldn't except trust without some level of accountability to the community on many levels. Remember, the(your)community was the victim; it's his to(try to)repair the lost trust(creditability). Sometimes the fruit of personal arrogance will remain til we die; such is the result of arrogance; even David suffered a stain to his character that never recovered after his attempted coverup ie:Bathsheba and Uriah.
< Message edited by LCannon -- 6/24/2009 6:02:24 PM >
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especially there; His hand will hold.' -Elisabeth Elliot-
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 12:40:54 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 1263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
This aspect of how to interact with people who have hurt us is a bit different from the question of what constitutes forgiveness. But, it's equally important. And, that is the difference between forgiveness and trust.
When a person hurts us, it's usually because in some way that have betrayed our trust. So, not only do we have anger and hurt toward the person, they also lose our trust.
We can sometimes wonder why we still don't trust a person when we say we have forgiven them. And, we may think that means our forgiveness was not complete. But, that isn't the case at all. Trust is a separate quality. It is part of being prudent.
In a few years, a man that severely betrayed the trust of many, many caring people and myself will be getting out of jail for molesting a young eight year old girl. Having grown up in the church he knows the language of repentence, very, very well. And, in the past, he used that to manipulate those trying to help him.
When he comes out, he knows he needs help and I'm sure will express great remorse for the hurt he has caused and ask for forgivess... and, help to restart his life. But, will it be real? Only time will tell as the fruit of God's Spirit will either be demonstrated over time or not. So, when and how can trust be rebuilt even if all who were wounded by this man's betrayal of their earlier help have forgiven him?
Do we lack forgiveness because we do not instantly trust? This is certainly going to be his position. Or, does prudence dictate a more cautious stance? It's a tough call because not helping a sincere person might kill their chances for complete restorationa and helping an insincere person only enables their continued sin.
This is a terrible situation, I couldn't imagine how hurt I would be.
That being said, I don't think forgiveness is reliant on trust. I can forgive someone who hurt me, yet not trust them. Trust has to be earned. Forgiveness is to be given freely.
You and all those involved have forgiven this man, he should appreciate that and do all that he can to earn your trust back, not just expect it to be given. If he thinks you all owe him trust just because you forgive, to me, that would show signs of untrue remorse.
JMHO.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
http://followtheleader-mat1624.blogspot.com/
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 1:00:08 PM
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rcjames
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Forgiving someone from the heart as we are insturcted to do for something someone done to us in the past; in no way indicates that we would have to trust the person in the future.
As we mature we learn to discern good from evil; Hebrews speaks to us concerning this trusting thingy;
(Heb 5:13) For everyone partaking of milk is unskillful in the Word of Righteousness, for he is an infant.
(Heb 5:14) But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, even those who because of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
We must use the good senses that God gave us, and that we get through growth in the Faith.
Naivete is not a fruit of the Holy Spirit, but is a trap of the devil.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 6/24/2009 5:58:01 PM >
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 1:11:19 PM
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TMeeks
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Actually, in one sense, no one has done me a bigger favor than this man. For it began a quest to find out WHY and HOW past hurts seem to have a stranglehold on people and HOW they can be truly lifted from that bondage.
Because of his actions, I've learned more about renewing the mind in these past two years than all my Bible College training and Christian studies of the past 40 years. So, while I will DEFINITELY have a rough time trusting him, and he has not asked for forgiveness from me, I have put him into God's hands and left any rancor toward him were it belongs... behind.
It's MUCH more fun looking and moving forward than it is looking backward. 
Sin ALWAYS has consequences and brings many forms of death. Death of trust is just one of them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Do we lack forgiveness because we do not instantly trust? This is certainly going to be his position. Or, does prudence dictate a more cautious stance? It's a tough call because not helping a sincere person might kill their chances for complete restorationa and helping an insincere person only enables their continued sin.
Ted,
I think of Jesus speaking to His disciples on several occasions regarding being shrewd, astute, making wise decisions. And He had the audacity (!) to say unrighteous men are more shrewd than the sons of light! So we need to listen up.
Forgiveness is necessary. Trust is not. God asks us to forgive as He forgives which means the person comes to repentance. You can hold forgiveness in your heart toward this man. Whether he ever truly repents and receives God's forgiveness or the forgiveness of any man is not dependent upon you. It is dependent upon him.
To trust this man would be unwise and we also know what God says about that. It does not mean you do not love this man. There are borders on the river of love. Love FOR this man requires you to place them for him when he cannot do it for himself.
No bitterness. No anger. I know it is hard. Your heart grieves for this young girl. But love protects and you must protect him as well as others.
Believe love and all will be well. Bless ya, my friend! LL
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 1:13:02 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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Lets see if I can put this a different way to stress my point, and you may have already thought about it in this way, but here it goes....
Say you are married, or in a serious relationship, your spouse or bf/gf cheats on you. They come to you asking forgiveness. You freely forgive. Does that mean you trust them also. Or do they have to earn that trust back from you.
Another example....say you have a roommate. He/she steals from your bedroom. He/she later apologizes, and maybe even makes restitution. They ask forgiveness, you forgive. Does that mean you don't keep your door locked from now on.
Wouldn't it be foolish of us to just act like nothing happened. Trust was broken, and needs to be mended.
Just because we are Christians doesn't mean we lie down and let people walk all over us.
And, in my opinion, what this guy did was far worse than the 2 examples I gave. So forgive, yes. Offer a helping hand, sure. That doesn't mean we just blindly give him trust back, and let him watch our daughters.
JMHO.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
http://followtheleader-mat1624.blogspot.com/
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 3:19:20 PM
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TMeeks
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
And, in my opinion, what this guy did was far worse than the 2 examples I gave. So forgive, yes. Offer a helping hand, sure. That doesn't mean we just blindly give him trust back, and let him watch our daughters.
JMHO.
That's for sure!
Pedophelia is one of those sin conditions that most associate with permanence. Which is why sex offenders are labeled sex offenders and forced to register as such. But, with recent discoveries concerning the plasticity of the brain, I'm not so sure. Certainly, it does not seem Biblical to label any person unredeemable... although at some point the Romans 1 does say that God gives certain people over to "their reprobate minds."
But, one surely doesn't want to give someone that has demonstrated that propensity the opportunity to demonstrate that they have NOT been delivered. It's better to never give the chance to fall for falling ALWAYS involves an innocent victim.
_____________________________
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Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 4:56:32 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
And, in my opinion, what this guy did was far worse than the 2 examples I gave. So forgive, yes. Offer a helping hand, sure. That doesn't mean we just blindly give him trust back, and let him watch our daughters.
JMHO.
That's for sure!
Pedophelia is one of those sin conditions that most associate with permanence. Which is why sex offenders are labeled sex offenders and forced to register as such. But, with recent discoveries concerning the plasticity of the brain, I'm not so sure. Certainly, it does not seem Biblical to label any person unredeemable... although at some point the Romans 1 does say that God gives certain people over to "their reprobate minds."
But, one surely doesn't want to give someone that has demonstrated that propensity the opportunity to demonstrate that they have NOT been delivered. It's better to never give the chance to fall for falling ALWAYS involves an innocent victim.
I agree with you TMeeks. I don't think anyone is irredeemable. God can save anyone and everyone, through Him all things can be overcome.
He is great that way, huh.
Yet I agree that there are some who will never look to change, never look to God for help. They may even say they are willing, but not show it with their lifestyle.
In the end, in this very moment, all glory to God the Father, He is good.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
http://followtheleader-mat1624.blogspot.com/
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 5:16:16 PM
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mvic
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Forgiveness and trust are totally separate entities.
Years ago someone hurt me badly. At the time I made the mistake of hating the hurt caused to me and the person who carried out the hurt.
Eventually I learnt to forgive the person; although I still remember the hurt caused to me and still hate it. I can't forget the hurt since I have its reminder with me for the rest of my days.
I have forgiven the person in as much that I do not wish them any harm any more.
However, I do not trust that person, because I know, given the chance that person would hurt me again and would hurt others too. So my lack of trust is fuelled by self-protection; not by any feelings of ill-will or hatred.
In the example you mention - another entity comes into play.
Responsibility.
We all have a God given responsibility to protect children.
So your lack of trust towards that person is a duty. You have no choice but to dis-trust him (if there is such a word. If there isn't; I've just invented it).
So as I was saying before I interrupted myself: Your lack of trust is a responsibility and a duty in order to protect young vulnerable children.
God has never asked us to forgive to the point of being reckless and putting someone else in danger.
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 6:03:20 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
I agree with you TMeeks. I don't think anyone is irredeemable. God can save anyone and everyone, through Him all things can be overcome.
I agree with both of you that God can save any of us, but that any of us can choose to sin, and that sin seems most often to be the favorite sin from before salvation.
As a young man before Christ I drank to much and got into bar fights, if I was to ever backslide into my former sin; It would probably put me in the hospital, but not hurt much of anyone else.
A pedeophile backslides; and whoopsie there goes another innocent life.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 7:27:42 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1352
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quote:
When he comes out, he knows he needs help and I'm sure will express great remorse for the hurt he has caused and ask for forgivess... and, help to restart his life. But, will it be real? Only time will tell as the fruit of God's Spirit will either be demonstrated over time or not. So, when and how can trust be rebuilt even if all who were wounded by this man's betrayal of their earlier help have forgiven him?
Do we lack forgiveness because we do not instantly trust? This is certainly going to be his position. Or, does prudence dictate a more cautious stance? It's a tough call because not helping a sincere person might kill their chances for complete restorationa and helping an insincere person only enables their continued sin.
When he comes out, will he be on parole? If so, will his parole (conditions of release) include particiaption in sex offender treatment? Does the sex offender treatment program ahve a community support component?
Forgiveness is up to the individual to let go of the pain, anger, and any emotions that eat at them. Trust has to be earned. Because of this man's conviction he can never be fully trusted again. To gain trust this man will have to not only demonstrate that he is a changed man, he will have to allow others into parts of his life that most people do not want to see. Transparency will be necessary of him in a way that most of us want in others but are not willing to expose ourselves.
quote:
Pedophelia is one of those sin conditions that most associate with permanence. Which is why sex offenders are labeled sex offenders and forced to register as such. But, with recent discoveries concerning the plasticity of the brain, I'm not so sure. Certainly, it does not seem Biblical to label any person unredeemable... although at some point the Romans 1 does say that God gives certain people over to "their reprobate minds."
One thing to note here. Pedophilia is the sexual attraction (a word used by most, the word should be "arousal") to prepubescent children. All too often the term "sex offender" brings to mind "pedohile." Not all who molest children (anyone under 18) are pedophiles. There are many categories of offenders. Frequently, the crimes are opportunistic. The underlying factor in the causation of criminal sexual conduct is thoughts that obejectify another person for self gratification. There is a school of thought that sex offenders are unredeemable. After several years of having worked with sex offenders, I no longer believe this as a general rule. There are some who, for whatever reason, absloutely refuse to let go of their sin. But, there are many more who, after probing the deepest, darkest parts of their soul, are transformed. It's a case by case basis and we tend to want to categorize to fit our own common understanding. In order to effect change in others, however, hard work is required of us. It will require a person to venture into very uncomfortable territory.
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/24/2009 11:00:23 PM
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LivingParadox
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Forgive(ness) - The act of; granting pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve.
Trust - reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, etc., of a person or thing; confidence.
Forgivess is giving up the claim of punishment -- Trust is the confidence that the individual will not harm you or another again.
IMO -- it is the loving thing to keep an individual like this person AWAY from children - YES -- you wouldn't take an alcoholic to a bar with an open tab, nor would you stock a diabetic's cupboard with cupcakes, ice cream and biscuits. So what is the loving thing or forgiving thing of putting someone who has been convicted of child molestation in the proximity of children? Also this particular sin is aim at harm to another -- not the person harming himself -- again the keyword, responsibility and wisdom.
Does this mean this person should never have a job or never have any kind of life -- no -- but based on good data there has to be realistic transparancy.
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You're dangerous 'cause you're honest ~U2
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/25/2009 2:03:44 AM
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Bountiful
Posts: 792
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Yes, we must forgive. He can be redeemed
Trust, however, is earned.
God forgives us, but we still often must suffer the consequences.
Lack of trust IS going to be one of his consequences.
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/25/2009 11:03:25 PM
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growingseed
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I trust God and forgive people.
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/28/2009 11:26:15 AM
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RustyCarr
Posts: 972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
This aspect of how to interact with people who have hurt us is a bit different from the question of what constitutes forgiveness. But, it's equally important. And, that is the difference between forgiveness and trust.
When a person hurts us, it's usually because in some way that have betrayed our trust. So, not only do we have anger and hurt toward the person, they also lose our trust.
We can sometimes wonder why we still don't trust a person when we say we have forgiven them. And, we may think that means our forgiveness was not complete. But, that isn't the case at all. Trust is a separate quality. It is part of being prudent.
In a few years, a man that severely betrayed the trust of many, many caring people and myself will be getting out of jail for molesting a young eight year old girl. Having grown up in the church he knows the language of repentence, very, very well. And, in the past, he used that to manipulate those trying to help him.
When he comes out, he knows he needs help and I'm sure will express great remorse for the hurt he has caused and ask for forgivess... and, help to restart his life. But, will it be real? Only time will tell as the fruit of God's Spirit will either be demonstrated over time or not. So, when and how can trust be rebuilt even if all who were wounded by this man's betrayal of their earlier help have forgiven him?
Do we lack forgiveness because we do not instantly trust? This is certainly going to be his position. Or, does prudence dictate a more cautious stance? It's a tough call because not helping a sincere person might kill their chances for complete restorationa and helping an insincere person only enables their continued sin.
Now that we/you have figured out how to proceed with forgiveness and trust, shouldn't we look back at this part of the OP(enlarged and bold) and examine possible reasons WHY this guy entered into such a dispicable and harmful sin?
Some questions to answer:
FOR THE CHURCH
1. Is the church training up men and boys who are strong leaders and participaters in teaching the gospel of the kingdom of God?
2. Did the kid have strong male role models who abhorred nonsense and loved God, family, friends, and neighbors?
3: Sin is the absence of love. God is love. Is sin FORCEFULLY preached against in the church? Is a "renewing of the mind" preached in the church?
4: What activities and programs are offered to upcoming generations in the church? Do the men of the church participate in field trips, picnics, camp outs, and job days/weeks (where young people can go to work at various trades to learn and gain exposure to the work environment).
5: What protections against nonsense and filth are being provided to upcoming generations for counteracting the government school "isms," Darwinism, Marxism, secular humanism?
6: What protections are taught and provided to counteract the influence of filthy entertainment media, games, etc?
7: What armor and reasonable protection are provided upcoming generations to lessen the peer pressure and exposure to unchurched "friends" and classmates?
8: Is the kingdom of God being properly taught? Christians have been called out of the fallen world and into the kingdom of God. The differences MUST be emphasized and lived in order to "see" the differences.
FOR HIS FAMILY
1: Is/was there a father in the home? If so, was this father equipped to love, lead, teach, provide for, and protect his family? Was the father worthy of love and respect? The Bible teaches us HOW to be worthy...
2: If yes to all above, did this father have other Christian fathers surrounding him who were equally equipped and trained in the knowledge of the kingdom of God, His wisdom, His Truth, and His love?
3: Is/was there a Christian mother in the home? Was she worthy of love and respect? Was she participating with other mothers to enhance and reinforce the fathers' teaching, leading, and loving?
So, you see? I think it is time we Christians started examining ourselves against scripture to determine if we are doing the role God has given us. My sense is, if were doing that role better, much of the troubles arrising from sin, societal depravity, peer pressure, etc., could be minimized and AVOIDED.
Blessings,
Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/30/2009 8:53:30 PM
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RustyCarr
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Two days and almost to the bottom of the page.....
Hey ladies, do you know of any men of courage on this forum who can answer the questions in my previous post in this thread?
What's up? Did I hit a nerve? Do you think the "men" in the churches ought to be loving, leading, and teaching better?
What does the Bible say we men ought to be doing?
Rusty
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 6/30/2009 10:17:08 PM
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TMeeks
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Let's start with the family questions...
quote:
ORIGINAL: RustyCarr
FOR HIS FAMILY
1: Is/was there a father in the home? If so, was this father equipped to love, lead, teach, provide for, and protect his family? Was the father worthy of love and respect? The Bible teaches us HOW to be worthy...
His father was one of the first and most famous protestant missionaries in Mexico. He won thousands of people to Christ. And, was very well-known in this country among evanglical leaders and churches. But, he was also a brutal man who believed that correcting his children required the rod... or, in his case a heater hose from a car. If I gave you his name and you Googled it, you would find 6 full pages of links.
So, to the church and the outside world, he was the ultimate soul winner, preaching the Gospel of Christ. But, at home, he was feared.
quote:
2: If yes to all above, did this father have other Christian fathers surrounding him who were equally equipped and trained in the knowledge of the kingdom of God, His wisdom, His Truth, and His love?
Yes. But, those who focus solely on soul winning sometimes miss the compassion of God for those closest to them.
quote:
3: Is/was there a Christian mother in the home? Was she worthy of love and respect? Was she participating with other mothers to enhance and reinforce the fathers' teaching, leading, and loving?
She's actually a wonderful woman. But, was much younger than her husband and endured the same anger that the children endured.
quote:
So, you see? I think it is time we Christians started examining ourselves against scripture to determine if we are doing the role God has given us. My sense is, if were doing that role better, much of the troubles arrising from sin, societal depravity, peer pressure, etc., could be minimized and AVOIDED.
Blessings,
Rusty
I agree, that is why I am constantly calling for ministers to understand that learning the compassion of Christ and resting in Him is every bit as important and actually MORE important than soul winning. Soul winning should be an outgrowth of our love for Jesus Christ not an excuse for control over people. When Christianity is twisted, the results are devastating.
These aren't the answers you were looking for. And, had I not had the opportunity to see the family dynamics from the INSIDE rather than the outside, I would be repeating what 6 pages of links to tributes say... "He was a wonderful Christian father and led thousands to Christ!"
You want to know what he could have done to save his son from his fate? Been there. He could have simply been there for him. And, rather than focus on a wrateful God ready to send people to hell unless they repented, he could have introduced him to the marvelous Creator and the loving Saviour that longs for all to come to Him. There is a subtle difference... but, that subtlety makes ALL the difference in the world over a lifetime.
The writers of Cat & Dog Theology described his father's life best. He was backing away from hell, not running toward heaven.
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 7/1/2009 11:50:22 AM
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RustyCarr
Posts: 972
Joined: 3/11/2009
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Wow! Great post TMeeks. I am sorry about this Christian father and missionary "missing the mark."
quote:
You want to know what he could have done to save his son from his fate? Been there. He could have simply been there for him. And, rather than focus on a wrateful God ready to send people to hell unless they repented, he could have introduced him to the marvelous Creator and the loving Saviour that longs for all to come to Him. There is a subtle difference... but, that subtlety makes ALL the difference in the world over a lifetime.
That subtle difference is "love." God is love, and this wayward son did miss out on God's True definition of Love from his father. They both missed out on a loving friendship in the full knowledge of the Truth, the kingdom of heaven/God. Compassion is part of love, so is wisdom, and a willing heart that SEES and wants to DO this wisdom. And when we get the whole picture, DOING His wisdom, we will find ourselves storing "treasure in heaven," which is happy memories "within you."
The theology around preaching and teaching the "Gospel of the kingdom of God" has been lacking for generations, "Few are they who find it." BUT IT IS THERE, IN THE BIBLE. AND IT WAS THE PRIMARY METHOD OF CONVERTING THE GENTILES AND THE JEWS.
Ac 28:31 Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.
Doesn't love and wisdom within us cause us to look for ways to teach our family without wrath and belittling? A wise father looks for ways to teach his children before going to wrath, just like our Father in heaven does us, but a wise father also knows when a firm rebuke is required. It sould be love that motivates us TO WANT to follow the Truth and do it, not fear and wrath. AND THE GREAT THING IS IF WE JUST START DOING THE TRUTH WE WILL BE MAKING GREAT MEMORIES WITH ONE ANOTHER TO STORE IN HEAVEN, which is "within you." Even memories of persecution by the lost world are a treasure... but the FIRST TREASURE is the Word written on your heart.
So, what is our choice? It is a simple choice, will we live our live in righteousness desiring to store great memories within us (Luke 17:21) or will we continue to be separated by a less than full and mutual understanding about the "Gospel of the kingdom of God?"
"Seek first His kingdom..."
Blessings,
Rusty
Gee, I wonder what things are possible when men know the Truth and place the Kingdom within them. Won't their courage multiply in order to stand against nonsense, lies, and deception? Will they be able to tell that mountain to throw itself into the sea? Faith (in the kingdom) the size of a mustard seed.... My cup is starting to run over as I write on... Father thank you for your kingdom, blessed be your name....
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 7/1/2009 1:02:52 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 1532
Joined: 1/27/2007
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quote:
Rusty
That subtle difference is "love." God is love, and this wayward son did miss out on God's True definition of Love from his father. They both missed out on a loving friendship in the full knowledge of the Truth, the kingdom of heaven/God. Compassion is part of love, so is wisdom, and a willing heart that SEES and wants to DO this wisdom.
I absolutely agree with you about BOTH of them missing that God is love.
I scarely know how to communicate this because I know it will be misconstrued by some. But, from very personal experience, both with this man and some other ministers with similar outlooks on living for God and ministry, many pastors use setting 'preaching the gospel' and 'soul winning' as the highest goal of Christianity to avoid the WHOLE GOSPEL in their own individual lives. It's a subtle trap; but, a trap none the less.
What I've seen is that these people pick the verses that allow themselves to be in control and on top while USING those selected verses by hiding behind them to permit their ignoring other verses that would require a personality change on their part. I know that is a convoluted sentence. But, each of us needs to really think through that concept.
Furthermore, it becomes and Mary vs. Martha thing. We can be so busy DOING things for Jesus that we fail to just sit and adore Him and drink in who He is. In so doing, a ministers life can become lopsided and distorted along with his view of the One that he serves.
Suppose we made a histogram of our obedience to the FULL GOSPEL OF CHRIST as found in the Scriptures... ALL the verses in ALL the Bible. A histogram is a chart of frequency of applying ALL Scripture would look balanced and widely spread from one pole to the other, like this.
Pole #1: Salvation
**
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*****
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Pole #2: Christian Living
But for pastors like the man's father and many who claim they "Preach the Gospel" the histogram is weighted in favor of salvation to the lost to the exclusion of the wider application of Scripture to their own lives.
Pole #1: Salvation
**************
***********
******
*****
**
*
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*
*
*
Pole #2: Christian Living
Thus, they preach the love of Christ to lost and fail miserably to LIVE the love of Christ to those around them. Ultimately most of the pastors tend to be very controlling people using intimidation in the form of selective Bible verses thrown out like machine gun bullets. Their "gospel" is not balanced and is weigthed toward making little or no demands on their own need for deep changes in their lives. After all, THEY are ALREADY saved and have reached the pinnacle as far as they are concerned.
When I think of the TRUE Gospel, it is EVERY WORD and it APPLIES TO ME more than it applies to others because it was given that I may KNOW HIM and the POWER of HIS RESURRECTION... and, that not only should I have LIFE (eternal); but, have it more ABUNDANTLY for both me and all those around me that Glory in God through His work in my life.
_____________________________
http://focusonliberty.blogspot.com
Is "Left" vs. "Right" really accurate?- Check out the Liberty Dial!
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 7/1/2009 5:28:59 PM
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jn1010lf
Posts: 493
Joined: 4/20/2005
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Hello TMeeks
I suppose there are several questions involved in your post. First, are we sure that the one that offended us intended to do so? Many times a person may not realize they are hurting you, or are reacting out of their hangups or mind set.
Another question is, can you go to the person that you feel offended you and talk it out. A search here might reveal so astounding things.
Finally, if a person that did indeed offend you show no desire to make amends, I would forgive him or her but remain aloof to being involved with them. There is nothing in scripture that does not say you can choose your friends wisely.
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 7/1/2009 7:04:48 PM
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RustyCarr
Posts: 972
Joined: 3/11/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Hello TMeeks
I suppose there are several questions involved in your post. First, are we sure that the one that offended us intended to do so? Many times a person may not realize they are hurting you, or are reacting out of their hangups or mind set.
Another question is, can you go to the person that you feel offended you and talk it out. A search here might reveal so astounding things.
Finally, if a person that did indeed offend you show no desire to make amends, I would forgive him or her but remain aloof to being involved with them. There is nothing in scripture that does not say you can choose your friends wisely.
I would like to tie this last statement into my previous post about "preaching the kingdom of God." FRIENDS IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD ARE OF ONE MIND FULL OF WISDOM, LOVE, AND CARE ABOUT OTHERS. THEY ARE OF ONE MIND, KNOWN BY THEIR LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER AND THEIR HUMILITY TOWARD GOD. This is mature Christianity.
Now, let me use an example to illustrate the kingdom of God/heaven. People construct their OWN "kingdom of heaven" within them. This is the normal way of the lost. They pick up pieces of Truth and toss out others that they don't believe, or that convict them. Statements that convict them upset their little kingdom within them and they often lash out in anger. I have a few homosexual friends. I am pleasant and friendly as I am usually doing home repairs for them. My time in their home is pleasant, although their efforts and remarks can be a little annoying. One of these homosexuals told me that he used to be a sunday school teacher, and He still considers himself a Christian. BUT HE DOESN'T HAVE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITHIN HIM -- Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1Co 6:9,10
My homosexual friend THOUGHT he had the Kingdom of heaven within him, but the kingdom he had/has is based on a lie. A lie that he believes. He believes that God created him homosexual. There are probably many other little lies and errors that he believes, but he is happy. He does what he wants to do.... he thinks he is a Christian.
THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN WITHIN YOU IS BASED ON THE FULL TRUTH OF GOD AND A HOLY SPIRIT OF LOVE FOR NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.
Does an adulterer have the kingdom of God within them? NO
Does the "Christian" who is carnal and ignorant of the Truth have the kingdom of God within them? NO, he lacks understanding and wisdom..He needs to ask God for more and humbly seek the full Truth...
Does the "Christian" politician who desires to take bread off the table of the rich to give to the poor have the kingdom of God within him? NO, socialism and government control will not usher in utopia and Jesus's kingdom on earth.
I have the kingdom of God within me. No one can take that away from me or get me to believe a lie. I only respond to God's Truth, scripture. If I am rebuked with scripture, I will humbly try to mend my ways, without becoming angry. I may get a little disturbed if someone tries to convince me of a lie, though.
The lost and the carnal will believe what they want to believe, but as for me, I will believe the Truth!
“If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know (love) the truth, and the truth (within you) will set you free.” Jn 8:31,32
I wish the church would get back to Preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God and and against sin and error.
Ac 28:31 Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessings,
Rusty
EDIT TO ADD THIS: Some people will give their lives and kill others in the defense of the lies they believe. 9/11 is an example, and Sadaam Hussien, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, are other examples. Sometimes an ignorant judge will destroy and family and multiple generations because he believes the the definition of "love your neighbor" includes taking children and income from a not-at-fault father and give them to an at-fault adulterous mother.
The battle is "Truth against lies, error, and ignorance." That is why the Christian needs to put on the full armor of God, the Truth..... How many Christians have the courage to give their lives for the Truth? Jesus gave His life....
< Message edited by RustyCarr -- 7/1/2009 7:18:18 PM >
_____________________________
It is better to obey God rather than men. The Truth, God's word, within is the lamp that guides our feet. -For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. Prov. 2:6-
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RE: Forgiveness vs. Trust - 7/2/2009 8:02:47 AM
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LoveSavesLives
Posts: 22
Joined: 7/2/2009
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I think this man could definitely be forgiven, but trust may never be regained. When something happens as horrible as what this man did, I'm not sure how someone could trust him again. I'm thankful I'm not God because I'm not sure I could forgive such a thing. In the same sense, when he's truly shown and proved he is ready to change his life and is involved with his aftercare plan and therapy and whatnot, then he can be forgiven. I'm not saying this would be easy, because like I said, I have a hard time forgiving people who do those sorts of things. I think that is the WORST crime a person could commit. But, that said, God calls us to forgive as He has forgiven us. God doesn't grade sin. In God's eyes, what this man did would be the same as if I stole a candybar. Sin is sin, we are all fallen from grace. But there's no way I would EVER trust him with a child. Forgiving is the easy part. We can ask God to help us forgive. But trusting takes time and evidence.
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Sorry, friend. 
