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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples of the earth scattered in Babylon.
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/7/2009 10:04:30 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 289
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:
Any Scripture to support this world evangelism effort by the 144 thousand, or just to many Left Behind books and movies.
RCJames
Hmmmmmm...........yep! But I'm surprised you asked. I thought you could tell me.
Never have read the 'Left Behind' books. I see few movies.
Ever wonder what we can do for those that are left behind?
We will leave all of our material things behind. We won't be needing it. Do you suppose somehow we could see that select people could receive it instead of leaving to to just anyone? A silly thought, but just wondering.
BTW, I like your country preacher atmosphere and your picture!
bj
< Message edited by deborlie -- 7/7/2009 11:00:01 PM >
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/7/2009 10:29:38 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 289
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:
2) Second, the "Gospel" is NOT the "death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah," as many claim. (Erroneously taken from I Cor. 15:1-4.)
The "Gospel" is found in Isaiah's prophecy:
Isa 52:5-7
5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the Lord, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the Lord; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
Declaring peace; declaring rescue for His people! That is the "good tidings" or the "gospel." The ultimate words of good news are "Thy God reigneth!" or "Your God reigns!" But, to whom was the runner with the good news talking? "UNTO ZION!"
Are you following my line of reasoning here?
Roy
Wow, Roy,
Then what is 1 Cor 15: 1 - 4 in the Bible for?
???????????? bj
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/7/2009 10:33:12 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Roy…yes I agree…the requirement of Salivation is believing Christ to be the Son of God. I think that is quite clear in John 3:16
Repentance comes later, after we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Regarding the law, when we love God totally, we have fulfilled the law. So it seems what God wants is for us to love Him absolutely and understand that He sent his Son that we might be redeemed. Thus when we understand and believe Christ to be the Son of God, sent by God, then by the power of the Holy Spirit we grow to love God completely.
Maybe I haven’t framed this just right but yes I follow your line of reasoning.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/7/2009 10:49:31 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 289
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:
Hi Roy,
This is fun! Now a riddle for you......How can Christ come to an earthly throne (David"s) when there is no throne to come to?
The answer lies partly among the verses we have been discussing.
Cheers,
bj
This is just for the fun of it, Not biblical, just food for thought.
Queen Elizabeth, now sits on a throne in England.......her proven genealogical line goes back to David in two ways. Her history is a long one so I can't go into it here. Of course one would ask, how does David's throne get to England? How will it get back to Israel? I can't answer those questions with the Bible, except partly by the verses we were exploring (thru Ephraim, Benjamin and Judah, {the sticks!})......and I haven't the wherewith all, to answer the last one at all. This is future, but there is a throne of David unto this day.
I bow to the fact that God has His own idea about things, and He doesn't need me to try to solve this part of history for Him. Just thought the possibility interesting.
Cheers,
bj
_____________________________
He's still working on me!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/8/2009 6:43:35 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, BJ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
quote:
2) Second, the "Gospel" is NOT the "death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah," as many claim. (Erroneously taken from I Cor. 15:1-4.)
The "Gospel" is found in Isaiah's prophecy:
Isa 52:5-7
5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the Lord, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the Lord; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
Declaring peace; declaring rescue for His people! That is the "good tidings" or the "gospel." The ultimate words of good news are "Thy God reigneth!" or "Your God reigns!" But, to whom was the runner with the good news talking? "UNTO ZION!"
Are you following my line of reasoning here?
Roy
Wow, Roy,
Then what is 1 Cor 15: 1 - 4 in the Bible for?
???????????? bj
Simple. I Cor. 15:1-4 must be read in context:
1 Cor 15:1-20
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
...
KJV
Verse 3 is NOT to be read "I delivered unto you - first of all that which I also received..."; it's to be read "I delivered unto you first of all - that which I also received...." It's not that the Gospel was the first of all which Paul received; it's that Paul delivered to them first of all those whom he taught that which he also received. Of course, the whole chapter is devoted to the concept of the resurrection of the dead. Thus, Paul used the fact that the Messiah who was to be God's Representative as King, fulfilling the words "Thy God reigneth,' rose again from the dead after dying. Therefore, this was a VERY necessary PART of the Gospel, introducing the essential concept of resurrection.
THAT'S why these verses were included. It was related to John the Baptist's question: "Are you he that should come or should we look for another?" The question means "Is there one Messiah with two comings or are there two Messiahs each with one coming?"
This chapter attempts to show that Yeshua` the Messiah was RESURRECTED and that it was by this RESURRECTION that He can be just one Messiah with two comings, since the first coming "ends" with the Suffering Messiah dying. The point is that death was NOT the end for the Messiah and now He is free to be the Victorious Messiah when He comes the second time.
Understand?
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/8/2009 7:08:11 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Roy…yes I agree…the requirement of Salivation is believing Christ to be the Son of God. I think that is quite clear in John 3:16
Repentance comes later, after we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Regarding the law, when we love God totally, we have fulfilled the law. So it seems what God wants is for us to love Him absolutely and understand that He sent his Son that we might be redeemed. Thus when we understand and believe Christ to be the Son of God, sent by God, then by the power of the Holy Spirit we grow to love God completely.
Maybe I haven’t framed this just right but yes I follow your line of reasoning.
Bob
Good. Then, let me point out an OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECY truth:
Mic 6:7-8
7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
KJV
And one should not forget Daviyd's words in haTehillim (the Psalms):
Ps 32:1-2
A Psalm of David, Mas'-chil.
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
KJV
which is quoted in Romans 4:8 (within context):
Rom 4:6-17
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
KJV
So, you see what I'm driving at? It's NOT a "New Testament" concept nor is it a "Church" concept. So, my question to you is this:
Which came first, believing Jews or the "Church?" WHO is grafted into WHOM? Do believing Jews become part of the "Church?" OR, are believing Gentiles grafted into believing Jews? A clear understanding of the proper perspective MAY change your view on the reason for the Rapture!
Just some food for thought.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/8/2009 7:46:41 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, BJ!
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
quote:
Hi Roy,
This is fun! Now a riddle for you......How can Christ come to an earthly throne (David"s) when there is no throne to come to?
The answer lies partly among the verses we have been discussing.
Cheers,
bj
This is just for the fun of it, Not biblical, just food for thought.
Queen Elizabeth, now sits on a throne in England.......her proven genealogical line goes back to David in two ways. Her history is a long one so I can't go into it here. Of course one would ask, how does David's throne get to England? How will it get back to Israel? I can't answer those questions with the Bible, except partly by the verses we were exploring (thru Ephraim, Benjamin and Judah, {the sticks!})......and I haven't the wherewith all, to answer the last one at all. This is future, but there is a throne of David unto this day.
I bow to the fact that God has His own idea about things, and He doesn't need me to try to solve this part of history for Him. Just thought the possibility interesting.
Cheers,
bj
YES! I've heard this before, and it DOES seem to have some validity! Consider this, too:
The word for "covenant" in Hebrew is "B'rit" meaning "In cutting" talking about the ritual which is described about Avraham and God in Genesis (B'resheet) 15:6-21 where the representation of God passed between the pieces of meat without Avraham passing with Him, making it a one-sided, unilateral, unconditional covenant. The word for "man" in Hebrew is "`iysh." Thus, the "man of the covenant" is "B'rit-`iysh" or "Brittish!"
Of course, these are the arguments that Herbert W. Armstrong used for his concept of Brittish Israelism and perhaps he took things a little too far, but as I've already said, there IS some validity to the idea! Some also say that the "lion" in prophecy refers to Great Brittain while the "young lions" are its spin-off nations--USA, Canada, Australia,...
Now, the "throne of Daviyd" is a JUDGMENT seat, not a formal kingly throne of pomp. A dictionary of Bible terms I've read before (which one?) said that it was a "small, backless seat from which the king would pronounce judicial decisions." IF it's literally there in England, it will be a simple matter for returning Isra'elis with the authority over such a seat to take it with them when they make Aliyah. However, the term MAY refer to the RIGHT to so make judgment as a descendant of Daviyd.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/8/2009 10:01:02 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
Which came first, believing Jews or the "Church?" WHO is grafted into WHOM? Do believing Jews become part of the "Church?" OR, are believing Gentiles grafted into believing Jews? A clear understanding of the proper perspective MAY change your view on the reason for the Rapture!
Believing Jews of course...who was Abraham? And....we gentiles are grafted in, not the other way around. Did I pass this test? Don't worry...I'm still looking for the left hook. 
That being said...I'm not sure how it changes my thinking about the gathering of the saints.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/9/2009 12:13:08 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Shalom Roy...
Who was the congregation in the wilderness with Moses...
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church(ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:37-38 (KJV)
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/9/2009 9:57:19 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Shalom Roy...
Who was the congregation in the wilderness with Moses...
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church(ekkleesia) in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:37-38 (KJV)
Bob
RIGHT!!!  So, is this the "Church" that is removed at the Rapture?
If so, then how do the 144,000 Isra'elis fit in?
If not, then the "Church" has NOT been removed!
Think about it!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/9/2009 10:03:46 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, again, Bob.
Just a short PS:
REMEMBER THIS: The ones who have been justified by God are saved exactly the same way, no matter what age or dispensation they might have lived.
They are always "saved" 1) by God's grace, 2) through sacrificial blood, 3) by faith! There's no other way a person can be justified by God! Therefore, there is no difference between the Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints! The ONLY difference is that we now know that the true Sacrifice was the Lamb of God, the Messiah Himself! That's the ONLY difference!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/9/2009 10:11:05 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Once again Roy...total agreement; the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/9/2009 10:44:18 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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I'm glad we got that back on top of the table Roy...I think people lose sight of the fact at times, that there is only one means of salvation and that all men have and will be saved under the grace of the new covenant.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/11/2009 1:04:01 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 809
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shabbat shalom, Bob!
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I'm glad we got that back on top of the table Roy...I think people lose sight of the fact at times, that there is only one means of salvation and that all men have and will be saved under the grace of the new covenant.
Bob
Exactly so!
Have a GREAT Shabbat!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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