144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples of the earth scattered in Babylon.
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144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples of th... - 6/25/2009 3:03:47 AM
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yohannan
Posts: 265
Joined: 2/23/2009
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[/quote]
Who are the 144,000 referring too?
I understand what the numbers say I am asking how do you know that John meant for them to be taken literally?
[/quote]
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
8 "Judah, your brothers will praise you;
your hand will be on the neck of your enemies;
your father's sons will bow down to you.
9 You are a lion's cub, O Judah;
you return from the prey, my son.
Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
10 The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he comes to whom it belongs [c]
and the obedience of the nations is his.
11 He will tether his donkey to a vine,
his colt to the choicest branch;
he will wash his garments in wine,
his robes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes will be darker than wine,
his teeth whiter than milk. [d]
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
"Reuben, you are my firstborn,
my might, the first sign of my strength,
excelling in honor, excelling in power.
4 Turbulent as the waters, you will no longer excel,
for you went up onto your father's bed,
onto my couch and defiled it.
"Let Reuben live and not die,
nor [d] his men be few."
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
19 "Gad [h] will be attacked by a band of raiders,
but he will attack them at their heels.
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
20 "Asher's food will be rich;
he will provide delicacies fit for a king.
24 About Asher he said:
"Most blessed of sons is Asher;
let him be favored by his brothers,
and let him bathe his feet in oil.
25 The bolts of your gates will be iron and bronze,
and your strength will equal your days.
26 "There is no one like the God of Jeshurun,
who rides on the heavens to help you
and on the clouds in his majesty.
27 The eternal God is your refuge,
and underneath are the everlasting arms.
He will drive out your enemy before you,
saying, 'Destroy him!'
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
21 "Naphtali is a doe set free
that bears beautiful fawns.
23 About Naphtali he said:
"Naphtali is abounding with the favor of the LORD
and is full of his blessing;
he will inherit southward to the lake."
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
13 About Joseph he said:
"May the LORD bless his land
with the precious dew from heaven above
and with the deep waters that lie below;
14 with the best the sun brings forth
and the finest the moon can yield;
15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains
and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills;
16 with the best gifts of the earth and its fullness
and the favor of him who dwelt in the burning bush.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among [e] his brothers.
17 In majesty he is like a firstborn bull;
his horns are the horns of a wild ox.
With them he will gore the nations,
even those at the ends of the earth.
Such are the ten thousands of Ephraim;
such are the thousands of Manasseh."
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
5 "Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords [a] are weapons of violence.
6 Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed men in their anger
and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.
7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob
and disperse them in Israel.
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
5 "Simeon and Levi are brothers—
their swords [a] are weapons of violence.
6 Let me not enter their council,
let me not join their assembly,
for they have killed men in their anger
and hamstrung oxen as they pleased.
7 Cursed be their anger, so fierce,
and their fury, so cruel!
I will scatter them in Jacob
and disperse them in Israel.
8 About Levi he said:
"Your Thummim and Urim belong
to the man you favored.
You tested him at Massah;
you contended with him at the waters of Meribah.
9 He said of his father and mother,
'I have no regard for them.'
He did not recognize his brothers
or acknowledge his own children,
but he watched over your word
and guarded your covenant.
10 He teaches your precepts to Jacob
and your law to Israel.
He offers incense before you
and whole burnt offerings on your altar.
11 Bless all his skills, O LORD,
and be pleased with the work of his hands.
Smite the loins of those who rise up against him;
strike his foes till they rise no more."
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
14 "Issachar is a rawboned [e] donkey
lying down between two saddlebags.
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
13 "Zebulun will live by the seashore
and become a haven for ships;
his border will extend toward Sidon.
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
22 "Joseph is a fruitful vine,
a fruitful vine near a spring,
whose branches climb over a wall. [j]
23 With bitterness archers attacked him;
they shot at him with hostility.
24 But his bow remained steady,
his strong arms stayed [k] limber,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
25 because of your father's God, who helps you,
because of the Almighty, [l] who blesses you
with blessings of the heavens above,
blessings of the deep that lies below,
blessings of the breast and womb.
26 Your father's blessings are greater
than the blessings of the ancient mountains,
than [m] the bounty of the age-old hills.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among [n] his brothers.
13 About Joseph he said:
"May the LORD bless his land
with the precious dew from heaven above
and with the deep waters that lie below;
14 with the best the sun brings forth
and the finest the moon can yield;
15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains
and the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills;
16 with the best gifts of the earth and its fullness
and the favor of him who dwelt in the burning bush.
Let all these rest on the head of Joseph,
on the brow of the prince among [e] his brothers.
17 In majesty he is like a firstborn bull;
his horns are the horns of a wild ox.
With them he will gore the nations,
even those at the ends of the earth.
Such are the ten thousands of Ephraim;
such are the thousands of Manasseh."
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
"Benjamin is a ravenous wolf;
in the morning he devours the prey,
in the evening he divides the plunder."
12 About Benjamin he said:
"Let the beloved of the LORD rest secure in him,
for he shields him all day long,
and the one the LORD loves rests between his shoulders."
These numbers are 12 X 12 = 144 which is a perfect square multiplied by 1000 (10 X 10 X 10) and the Temple Measurements given in Revelation are a perfect square. Jesus Testifies to Peter that all during the seventy sevens Prophecy or seventy times seven, one should be patient and forgiving when ones neighbor has asked reconciliation in repentance as in the sign of Jonah which is what The Son of Man gave at the cross.
Jonah 2 (New International Version)
Jonah 2
Jonah's Prayer
1 From inside the fish Jonah prayed to the LORD his God. 2 He said:
"In my distress I called to the LORD,
and he answered me.
From the depths of the grave [a] I called for help, and you listened to my cry. (a triune Psalm Scripture of David)
3 You hurled me into the deep,
into the very heart of the seas,
and the currents swirled about me;
all your waves and breakers
swept over me.
4 I said, 'I have been banished
from your sight;
yet I will look again
toward your holy temple.'
Each tribe has an accorded Prophecy from Israel (Jacob) including Ephraim and Mannaseh who were given an inheritance at Prophecy as sons of Israel making the tribes for Prophecy to come to 14, although these are reckoned as 12 because Joseph Prophecy is The FirstFruits Prophecy spoken of here and with regards to the battle for Canaan the Levites were not given any specific borders for their inheritance was The Lord. Moses Prophesied concerning these tribes as well; and especially the Levites Priesthood.
Ephraim and Dan have other Prophecy in the Prophets and the ark of the covenant was at Shiloh in Dan in those days. Dan has the serpent biting at the heels of its enemies and all of these tribes together can be viewed as Dan who brings up the rear guard fulfillment of the Feast of The FirstFruits as written.
Ephraim is the helmet held in common is Psalm 60:7 and in Paul as the salvation and there was a gate of Ephraim in the days of Nehemiah.
Ephraim is reckoned in advancement Prophecy in Jeremiah as the hill from which Dan (which are the Princes Sons or Leaders or Lions) sounds the call for the disaster of the 3 1/2 years that were to come.
These had allied themselves with Aram which is the Assyrian and were conquered in the north first is the Prophecy. Jerusalem was taxed heavily and Jeremiah was present, though these had turned to their gods.
There will be a division between the north tribes Ephraim and the scepter of Judah in the land is written and they will turn to devour one another for a time of turmoil. Yet, they will be joined in reckoning in Ezekiel as one with the Scepter Judah in The Millennium.
Hosea has much Prophecy regarding Ephraim and the occurances of the Assyrian days and the unfolding Prophecy is that those among the 'samaria' which are the diaspora Judea will bring their kids to the 2/3 Prophesied amount of the culmination of the times of the troubles of Jacob which is also called tyre (which signifies the major Empire or nation banner construct over a gentile rulership) whose king is Prophesied concerning as the Dragon from days of old as a walled Island which is a nation in the Prophets.
However, the children of Eve are as those reckoned among the seed of Eve with enmity with evil and these are the samaria olive trees and branches as well spoken of as Ephraim and all the other tribes each according to their calling.
These are restored in Prophecy as one stick the Scepter Judah to be fulfilled at a later time, The Millennium. I have sheep from different folds and I Must Bring them also and there will be one flock and One Shepherd as written.
Also, when the High Priest Caiaphas Prophesied concerning Jesus' death in John 11:54, he withdraws to Ephraim with His Disciples to stay for the preparation of The Passover Celebration. For the religious leaders were seeking to kill Him already and they knew that He would come to be in attendance at this important Feast and had given orders for Him to be turned over. This is the sign for the diaspora peoples who are believers that they will be handed over is written in the Olivet discourse concerning the last days trials of the mark of the number of the name of the false prophet who is in the world and will appear soon.
< Message edited by lelseep -- 6/25/2009 5:16:56 PM >
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 6/25/2009 6:40:34 AM
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Aleric
Posts: 75
Joined: 10/31/2006
Status: offline
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I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're saying.
The Jews that were scattered have returned back to Israel from the corners of the world.
Exactly as the bible said they would.
But I'm probably off track here?
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 6/25/2009 2:23:50 PM
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navyblueret
Posts: 1971
Joined: 11/29/2008
From: S/W Nebraska
Status: offline
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lelseep, Shalom.
I probably should not make any comment, but I must say that I am totally unable to garner any logical Prophetic reasoning from your offering. As Aleric, I must also say that I am probably off track here, also.
Your thought process must be way beyond any comprehension level I posses.
Can you simplify the connective logic a bit, that we can begin to make Prophetic connection? I get the feeling that much of your thought process, leading up to the statements you offer, is missing, and we are unable to make that blind jump to the logicality you offer.
In Messiah. Arley
_____________________________
In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
Messiah, my Captain, and Helmsman.
(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/2/2009 10:01:07 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 289
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
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(I see you have been connecting the dots using the blessings that Israel gave to his sons just before his death. That is interesting. I need to look into that further.)
I believe the 144,000 servants to be literal. Taken 12,000 from each tribe as you describe. These 144,000 servants come on the scene after the two witnesses, who probably inspired them. These go out miraculously, supernaturally encircling the globe, preaching the
gospel of the kingdom, during the tribulation, saving tribulation people Because of God's
seal on them, they can not be harmed. Yes, there will be people saved during the tribulation.
The people, just as soon as they are saved, are most likely martyred , because of their
new belief.)
Sealed
Rev, 7:2. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the
living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it
was granted to harm the earth and the sea.
3 ........."Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the
servants of our God on their foreheads."
(This seal protects them from being killed, as with Cain, but will not take
away the cup of suffering.)
4. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and
forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.
( The tribes of the children of Israel. Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned, they traveled
into the northern part of Israel. They were the first ones to go into idolatry.)
These 144,000 of the 12 tribes were given a particular mission:
These 144,000 servants of God lead sacrificial lives, they are sent out with no provisions.
They need and get provisions and shelter from secret believers, who are putting their lives
on the line in doing this. Somewhat reminds one of those protecting the Jewish people during
the 11 World War. It probably will be worse for them.)
I believe a similar command was given the 70 disciples that Jesus sent out:
Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also and sent them
two by two before, His face into every city and place where He Himself
was about to go.
2. Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are
few, therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His
harvest.
3. "Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves.
4. "Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals, and greet no one
along the road.
5. "But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’
6. "And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it, if not, it will
return to you.
7."And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they
give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to
house.
8. "Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are
set before you.
9. "And heal the sick there, and say to them, "The kingdom of God has
come near to you.’
10. "But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into
its streets and say,
11. "The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you.
Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.’
13. "But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom
than for that city.
16. "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he
who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."
The believers in the tribulation, unless they had the mark of the beast, could not buy or sell.
Survival is on the very edge, yet there will be those who, taking their lives in their own hands,
will come to the aid of the 144,000..
I don't know if I have answered you in any way, but I have always thought this an interesting part in the whole story.
Cheers,
bj
_____________________________
He's still working on me!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/2/2009 10:26:47 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 805
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, bj.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
(I see you have been connecting the dots using the blessings that Israel gave to his sons just before his death. That is interesting. I need to look into that further.)
I believe the 144,000 servants to be literal. Taken 12,000 from each tribe as you describe. These 144,000 servants come on the scene after the two witnesses, who probably inspired them. These go out miraculously, supernaturally encircling the globe, preaching the
gospel of the kingdom, during the tribulation, saving tribulation people Because of God's
seal on them, they can not be harmed. Yes, there will be people saved during the tribulation.
The people, just as soon as they are saved, are most likely martyred , because of their
new belief.)
Sealed
Rev, 7:2. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the
living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it
was granted to harm the earth and the sea.
3 ........."Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the
servants of our God on their foreheads."
(This seal protects them from being killed, as with Cain, but will not take
away the cup of suffering.)
4. And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and
forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.
( The tribes of the children of Israel. Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned, they traveled
into the northern part of Israel. They were the first ones to go into idolatry.)
These 144,000 of the 12 tribes were given a particular mission:
These 144,000 servants of God lead sacrificial lives, they are sent out with no provisions.
They need and get provisions and shelter from secret believers, who are putting their lives
on the line in doing this. Somewhat reminds one of those protecting the Jewish people during
the 11 World War. It probably will be worse for them.)
I believe a similar command was given the 70 disciples that Jesus sent out:
Luke 10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also and sent them
two by two before, His face into every city and place where He Himself
was about to go.
2. Then He said to them, "The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are
few, therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His
harvest.
3. "Go your way; behold, I send you out as lambs among wolves.
4. "Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals, and greet no one
along the road.
5. "But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’
6. "And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it, if not, it will
return to you.
7."And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they
give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to
house.
8. "Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are
set before you.
9. "And heal the sick there, and say to them, "The kingdom of God has
come near to you.’
10. "But whatever city you enter, and they do not receive you, go out into
its streets and say,
11. "The very dust of your city which clings to us we wipe off against you.
Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near you.’
13. "But I say to you that it will be more tolerable in that Day for Sodom
than for that city.
16. "He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he
who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."
The believers in the tribulation, unless they had the mark of the beast, could not buy or sell.
Survival is on the very edge, yet there will be those who, taking their lives in their own hands,
will come to the aid of the 144,000..
I don't know if I have answered you in any way, but I have always thought this an interesting part in the whole story.
Cheers,
bj
Dan perhaps, but not Efraiym (Ephraim) for the tribe of Yosef (Joseph) which IS mentioned IS the tribe of Efraiym for the tribe of M'nasheh (Manasseh) is also mentioned:
Rev 7:4-8
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
KJV
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/2/2009 11:24:30 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2252
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
These 144,000 servants come on the scene after the two witnesses, who probably inspired them.
B.J….I’m not sure that the 144,000 come on the scene after the two witnesses. The 144,000 would seem to be disciples for Christ and the timing would be all wrong.
The two witnesses are killed just before the sounding of the 7th trumpet and the beginning of the bowls. I think that God was willing to accept those who turned to Christ up until the sounding of the seventh trumpet but with the starting of the bowls I think that time is over and it is nothing but wrath against those who belong to Satan from now on. The other thing is that the bowls will be played out in a very quick sequences…there is not much time left before the end.
Something to think about.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/4/2009 9:59:15 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 289
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
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Shalom Roy,
Rev. 7: 5. of the tribe of Judah
of the tribe of Reuben
of the tribe of Gad
6. of the tribe of Asher
of the tribe of Naphtali
of the tribe of Manasseh
7. of the tribe of Simeon
of the tribe of Levi
of the tribe of Issachar
8. of the tribe of Zebulen
of the tribe of Joseph
of the tribe of Benjamin
Ephraim is not mentioned by name at least.......could be the tribe of Joseph since Manasseh is named????????? What think you? I Know two of the tribes did not make it because of their turning to Idolatry.
BJ
_____________________________
He's still working on me!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/4/2009 10:02:17 PM
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deborlie
Posts: 289
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
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Hi Bob,
I'm thinking...lol
I'll have to get back to you.
bj
_____________________________
He's still working on me!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 2:13:53 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 805
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, BJ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
Shalom Roy,
Rev. 7: 5. of the tribe of Judah
of the tribe of Reuben
of the tribe of Gad
6. of the tribe of Asher
of the tribe of Naphtali
of the tribe of Manasseh
7. of the tribe of Simeon
of the tribe of Levi
of the tribe of Issachar
8. of the tribe of Zebulen
of the tribe of Joseph
of the tribe of Benjamin
Ephraim is not mentioned by name at least.......could be the tribe of Joseph since Manasseh is named????????? What think you? I Know two of the tribes did not make it because of their turning to Idolatry.
BJ
Sure! Yosef (Joseph) was the father of both Efraiym (Ephraim) and M'nasheh (Manasseh). Since M'nasheh is mentioned by name, then the tribe of Yosef that is mentioned here would be everyone else from Yosef NOT from M'nasheh. Who else would that be? The Scriptures here do NOT say that the two missing names are because of idolatry. Although that MAY be the reason for the omission, the tribe of Efraiym was simply renamed to his father's name.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 9:39:31 AM
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deborlie
Posts: 289
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
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Good Morning Roy,
I ran across this while looking up something for Bob.
Ezekiel 37:15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
16. "as for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: "For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions' Then take another stick and write on it. 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israelhis companions.'
17. "Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
18. "And when the children of your people speak in you, saying, 'Will you not show us what you mean by these?"
19. "say to them, Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand."'
Exactly how this interprets, I am not sure, but it sounds like it might connect with what we are discussing. Dan is still not mentioned. Ephraim is still in the picture.
bj
_____________________________
He's still working on me!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 10:11:45 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 805
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, BJ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
Good Morning Roy,
I ran across this while looking up something for Bob.
Ezekiel 37:15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
16. "as for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: "For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions' Then take another stick and write on it. 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israelhis companions.'
17. "Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.
18. "And when the children of your people speak in you, saying, 'Will you not show us what you mean by these?"
19. "say to them, Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand."'
Exactly how this interprets, I am not sure, but it sounds like it might connect with what we are discussing. Dan is still not mentioned. Ephraim is still in the picture.
bj
That's a good point! I think it DOES apply to what we are discussing. Thanks!
Right, Dan is still a bit of a mystery to me. It has always been the most northern of the 12 tribes and borders Syria (or Aram). It may have been one of the first to follow idolatry, although we read in the Bible more about the influence of Moav (Moab), Ammon (Jordan) and Esav (Esau or Edom) being the culprits that enticed the children of Isra'el into idolatry. Maybe it is somehow annexed by Syria?
I really don't know why it is missing from the list in Revelation. It's even possible that an older version of the book, either in Greek or even in Aramaic, included Dan, but we have no evidence either way. That tribe just isn't in any of our current versions, whatever the language.
Thank you again for the verses on Yosef.
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 10:34:35 AM
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deborlie
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quote:
B.J….I’m not sure that the 144,000 come on the scene after the two witnesses. The 144,000 would seem to be disciples for Christ and the timing would be all wrong.
Hi Bob,
I haven't forgotten you. I am having a real time at trying to answer. Other things taking over the computer. I'm beginning to think my puter is bugged, demon possessed. Ha!
Ok............In attempting to answer you. I'm going to my source of information outside the Bible. I'm kinda short on the smarts enough give you a convincing answer myself.
I'll try to give what this person says:
"Concerning the 144,000 we know we are at the mid-point of the Tribulation. When reading the book of Revelation instead of reading it in it's chronological order, you read it according to it's events. (this is the key, otherwise it leads you to confusion) At the mid point we have these two witnesses and have a great earthquake. Earlier the Anti-christ will come in and desecrate and defile the Temple at the mid-point. In Rev. Chapter 7, here again is a portion of Scripture that has been so completely perverted that we have a lot of confusion and it doesn't have to be. It is so plain. Now since these two witnesses are beginning to proclaim Godly things, and I think again just like Jesus said, they are going to be proclaming the King and the Kingdom is coming. Out of their preaching, almost immediately, they will have a response of their prophesying or speaking by the 144,000 young Jewish men that we find in Chapter 7. "
Then he goes on reading. on down to Rev. 7:4......He says..." So that there are no mistakes, He names them in verse 5-8 except for one. And that question comes up often. Why isn't Dan and Ephraim mentioned in these 12 tribes? Remember, they moved up into the northern part of Israel, and what were the tribes guilty of? They were the first ones to go into idolatry. And, consequently, they are left out of these 12 tribes. So we have 12,000 from each of the other 12 tribes all seaed and they are given a particualr mission. "
Hope this give you something..... I must hurry off or I am going to be late for church.
till next time,
bj
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 10:56:08 AM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, again, BJ.
I just went back and looked at the Complete Jewish Bible version and extended the range of what you quoted. Here's what I found:
Ezek 37:15-28
15 The word of Adonai came to me: 16 “You, human being, take one stick and write on it, ‘For Y’hudah and those joined with him [among] the people of Isra’el.’ Next, take another stick and write on it, ‘For Yosef, the stick of Efrayim, and all the house of Isra’el who are joined with him.’ 17 Finally, bring them together into a single stick, so that they become one in your hand. 18 When your people ask you what all this means, 19 tell them that Adonai Elohim says this: ‘I will take the stick of Yosef, which is in the hand of Efrayim, together with the tribes of Isra’el who are joined with him, and put them together with the stick of Y’hudah and make them a single stick, so that they become one in my hand.’ 20 The sticks on which you write are to be in your hand as they watch. 21 Then say to them that Adonai Elohim says: ‘I will take the people of Isra’el from among the nations where they have gone and gather them from every side and bring them back to their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Isra’el; and one king will be king for all of them. They will no longer be two nations, and they will never again be divided into two kingdoms.
23 “‘They will never again defile themselves with their idols, their detestable things, or any of their transgressions; but I will save them from all the places where they have been living and sinning; and I will cleanse them, so that they will be my people, and I will be their God. 24 My servant David will be king over them, and all of them will have one shepherd; they will live by my rulings and keep and observe my regulations. 25 They will live in the land I gave to Ya‘akov my servant, where your ancestors lived; they will live there — they, their children, and their grandchildren, forever; and David my servant will be their leader forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant. I will give to them, increase their numbers, and set my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My home will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 The nations will know that I am ADONAI, who sets Isra’el apart as holy, when my sanctuary is with them forever.’”
CJB
This is definitely a prophecy about the future because Yeshua` IS their last King, the "one king" who "will be king for all of them." Currently, the state of Isra'el does not own a king or a president. No one sits to "preside" over them, and no one currently "reigns" over them. Instead, they have a "prime minister" (often abbreviated "PM" in their newspapers). That means a "first servant." One who was a steward OF and would minister TO the One who could claim kingship!
It reminds me of The Lord of the Rings trilogy by J.R.R. Tolkien (and the movies made from that trilogy): Gondor was ruled by Denethor who was a prime minister or steward of the city. His job was to protect the city and manage it until one who could claim kingship could return and take his rightful place. The rightful king was Lord Aragorn, nicknamed "Strider" because He was a Ranger in the north country. But, he was the man who could lay claim to being the king of Gondor by descent, its rightful heir.
In reality, only Yeshua` can lay claim to kingship over Isra'el anymore. No one else has the credentials--the lineage of haMelek Daviyd (King David). God has not anointed any other. Yeshua` ALONE is the "Mashiach"--the "Messiah"--the "Christ"--the Anointed One to be King.
Oh, and by the way, if you'd like to really mess with your mind, ask yourself, "How can Daviyd be king over them if Yeshua` is King over them?" Some other things to consider in how you hash this out: Remember Yeshua`s question to the P'rushim (Pharisees) in Matt. 22:41-46 and Luke 20:41-44. Remember, too, that Yeshua` will be called "King of Kings and Lord of Lords" (I Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; and Rev. 19:16) just like Artaxerxes was called "king of kings" in Ezra 7:12 and Nebuchadnezzar was called "king of kings" in Ezekiel 26:7 and Daniel 2:37. Also, remember that this will occur AFTER the resurrection of the just, and surely Daviyd was justified by God.
Have fun!
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
_____________________________
Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 1:36:27 PM
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deborlie
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Hi Roy,
This is fun! Now a riddle for you......How can Christ come to an earthly throne (David"s) when there is no throne to come to?
The answer lies partly among the verses we have been discussing.
I'm glad you read the rest of the chapter.....I thought it had a lot more to say. It feels good to have solved what was an unknown before, at least thus far. Poor Dan, he didn't have the advantage that Ephraim had. But I guess his crowd is still around, anyway.
Cheers,
bj
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 1:40:16 PM
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bob97
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BJ…it would be my understanding that the 144,000 are sealed and begin their ministry at the point where the Day of the Lord starts, at the opening of the 7th seal and continues during the time of the first six trumpets. I know I will get a lot of opposition but I think this is a one year period (day of the Lord) and likely begins at Rosh Hashanah in the 6th year of the week. I think God is still calling some to Christ during this period.
In the Talmud, tractate on Rosh Hashanah, it states that three books of account are opened on Rosh Hashanah, wherein the fate of the wicked, the righteous, and those of an intermediate class are recorded. The names of the righteous are immediately inscribed in the book of life, and they are sealed "to live." The middle class are allowed a respite until Yom Kippur, to repent and become righteous; the wicked are "blotted out of the book of the living.
I really feel that the judgment will occur at Yom Kippur one year after Rosh Hashanah at the 6th year and that is when the bowls play out. I believe that the group of the first book, who have their names inscribed in the book of life are taken at Rosh Hashanah and the group of the second book are allowed the respite until Yom Kippur which will occur 1 year and 10 days later.
I know many will disagree but this is just the way I understand what will happen.
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 3:20:40 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, BJ.
Yes, it is fun! I would suppose that ANY throne upon which Daviyd sat first after his resurrection could be a throne that his Son (and his Lord) could inherit from him. Of course, some would say that it is just figurative for the right to rule and doesn't have to be a literal throne, but I'm not that way. I believe that the Scriptures are far more literal than many give it credit.
Thanks for the riddle! (I'll keep pondering it, just to make sure.)
In the Messiah's love,
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 6:25:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
I believe the 144,000 servants to be literal. Taken 12,000 from each tribe as you describe. These 144,000 servants come on the scene after the two witnesses, who probably inspired them. These go out miraculously, supernaturally encircling the globe, preaching the
gospel of the kingdom, during the tribulation, saving tribulation people Because of God's
seal on them, they can not be harmed. Yes, there will be people saved during the tribulation.
The people, just as soon as they are saved, are most likely martyred , because of their
new belief.)
Any Scripture to support this world evangelism effort by the 144 thousand, or just to many Left Behind books and movies.
Thanks
RC
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/5/2009 9:51:09 PM
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yohannan
Posts: 265
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
I believe the 144,000 servants to be literal. Taken 12,000 from each tribe as you describe. These 144,000 servants come on the scene after the two witnesses, who probably inspired them. These go out miraculously, supernaturally encircling the globe, preaching the
gospel of the kingdom, during the tribulation, saving tribulation people Because of God's
seal on them, they can not be harmed. Yes, there will be people saved during the tribulation.
The people, just as soon as they are saved, are most likely martyred , because of their
new belief.)
Any Scripture to support this world evangelism effort by the 144 thousand, or just to many Left Behind books and movies.
Thanks
RC
I believe, though, that there is some Testimony to be given through these in a non darbianistic viewpoint of looking at The Scriptures.
Those left behind series books were for a cursory introduction form of fiction work presentation of only one way of looking these verses for entertainment, more than guiding a more comprehensive study on the Works which is left; of course to the local appoint.
One can, also, present the various views so that one can negotiate to buy into what was important to know which was that these are taken by the false prophet's worldwide governance civil commerce warfare institution of worship through the means of the monetary exchange as evidences by the number of his name in mark form on the right hand or the forehead.
Mammon taken to the decision of the fulfillment cannot serve both God and Mammon which is greed and written to be on guard against for the believer for who wants to settle for these things alone?
Surely, there is a monetary exchange written about called the talents given by Jesus to every disciple. One gets taken, the others are left. One has his funding sent to the rich in that Kingdom instead.
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/6/2009 6:57:33 AM
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tony.nz
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It is interesting to recall that ten of the twelve tribes are "lost" - Since Jews mainly descend from Judah, not all Israel, this raises some interesting questions about the assumption that the 144,000 will be 'saved Jews". Of course, Benjamin was also supposed to be with Judah, along with some Levites and I think half the tribe of Manassah - just going on memory here, I may be wrong. Some descendants of the other tribes may have made it back to Judah, so it is perhaps possible that all should come from Judaism, but why should we make this assumption?
Looking at this last night, I was astonished to find that there is clear evidence (from oral history, traditions, and geneological research), that the Pathan people of Afghanistan are descendants of one of the lost tribes! There is also lots of information in regard to groups from Africa, Japan, India, and China, amongst others.
So, at least 120000 of the 144000 could come from anywhere. God of course, knows the genealogy of every person on the planet! There could be about one billion who are descendants of Israel, who knows?
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/6/2009 9:12:24 AM
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bob97
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quote:
So, at least 120000 of the 144000 could come from anywhere. God of course, knows the genealogy of every person on the planet! There could be about one billion who are descendants of Israel, who knows?
Well one thing we know it is not...it's not the Church, they need no protection so this eliminated this group.
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/6/2009 4:06:29 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
quote:
So, at least 120000 of the 144000 could come from anywhere. God of course, knows the genealogy of every person on the planet! There could be about one billion who are descendants of Israel, who knows?
Well one thing we know it is not...it's not the Church, they need no protection so this eliminated this group.
Bob
I question this conclusion. I assume by "the Church" you are talking about believers who may be either Jew or Gentile but have accepted Christ as their Savior. Am I right?
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/6/2009 8:42:04 PM
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bob97
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Yes Sir...that is correct...
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/6/2009 10:40:21 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, Bob.
Then, allow me to re-word my question a little: That would mean that you are talking about believers who may be either Jew or Gentile but have accepted the Messiah as their Rescuer. Am I still correct?
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/6/2009 11:25:34 PM
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bob97
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Shalom Roy...I am talking about those who have accepted Messiah as Savior, both Jew and Gentile.
Why do I feel like you have something up your sleeve? 
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: 144,000 of all of Israel among all of the peoples o... - 7/7/2009 8:59:44 PM
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Retrobyter
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Shalom Roy...I am talking about those who have accepted Messiah as Savior, both Jew and Gentile.
Why do I feel like you have something up your sleeve?
Bob
LOL! Because I do! 
The Jew (or any Isra'eli) should KNOW about their own Messiah! The Gentile, who is a foreigner, must be introduced to the Jewish Messiah.
Furthermore, the word "Savior" is also the same as a "Deliverer" or a "Rescuer." This begs the question, "From what did Yeshua` 'save,' 'deliver,' or 'rescue' us? OR, "From what WILL Yeshua` 'save,' 'deliver,' or 'rescue' us?"
The pat answer is "From our sins," but is that indeed how the word is used in Scripture?
Add to this two additional facts, and it sounds like we may need to re-work our stance on this.
1) First, consider I John 5:1-5:
1 John 5:1-5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
KJV
Where is the repentance? Where is the asking for forgiveness? Where is the guilt for our sins? Where is the asking Yeshua` to indwell us?
No, these things are not necessary to be "born of God." Much more simply, whoever believes that Yeshua` is the Messiah is born of God.
2) Second, the "Gospel" is NOT the "death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua` the Messiah," as many claim. (Erroneously taken from I Cor. 15:1-4.)
The "Gospel" is found in Isaiah's prophecy:
Isa 52:5-7
5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the Lord, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the Lord; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.
6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
Declaring peace; declaring rescue for His people! That is the "good tidings" or the "gospel." The ultimate words of good news are "Thy God reigneth!" or "Your God reigns!" But, to whom was the runner with the good news talking? "UNTO ZION!"
Are you following my line of reasoning here?
Roy
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Stick to the Scriptures! The minute you start to draw an analogy or explain what a Scripture means or give a particular view of theology, you've left the safety of Absolute Truth, and you're on your own!
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