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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 1:04:17 PM
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trainfan
Posts: 2377
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From: The land of confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
The problem is that there are at least 2 kinds of weddings.
1. there are the simple weddings, it doesn't take a lot to put together, the bride and groom aren't demanding. The church as it is is adequate and it doesn't take a lot of time or resources.
2. The you have very complicated weddings. The people don't like the arrangement or seating in the sanctuary, so that has to be moved. The stage has to be emptied and the isles haver to be changed. The wedding is at 4 pm but they need in the church at 530.
The lighting has to be just perfect and the sound has to be just perfect. The wedding is gonna last 2 hours because everyone and their mom is involved which means the rehearsal will last at least 3 hours if not more.
The mom of the bride is demanding...
Well i think you get the picture, it's not like these weddings any more are simple. I think through the years people probably have abused the churches. People didn't much as say thank you for those that busted their butts getting their wedding together, and working hard.
It seems that many weddings aren't about the commitment to each other but a show of extravagance.
Maybe we need to be simpler people. If people want "free" then they need to understand this is what you get and maybe the compromise here is that the church will just have that out lined. And if yuo want the extravagance then you will certainly pay.
GH
The 2 types of weddings is right on! It seems that 98% that I worked at were of the complicated variety. The bolded text in the quote is what I normally had to deal with. Maybe that is where the disconnect is happening in this thread. The group who feels they should be free is used to simple weddings while those on the other side are used to the very complicated type.
_____________________________
Disappoints are inevitable, discouragment is a choice.
Dr. Charles Stanley.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 1:26:19 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
quote:
What if the church you attend doesn't work that way? Would you not feel obligated to pay the people for doing the work?
I would not attend a church like that. If it had to function like that it would be a sign of other things that I didn't think were right in a church. I am not begrudging a reasonable cost (a couple hundred maybe) but not $100's or even $1000's.
This goes back to my earlier comment about what it costs to hire people. People are expensive. An organist, a minister, and a janitor have to put in at least 6 hours of work a piece. That's 18+ hours of labor, 2/3 of which could be considered "skilled." Even at $20/hr (which is really low), that's $360.
quote:
However, I do think a local church should be such that we are willing to serve each other in cleaning after a wedding/etc.
That's all well and good, except that the reception usually follows the wedding ceremony, so any attendees are going to be at the party, not at the church cleaning. Which leaves the church janitor. If the janitor is on salary as trainfan was, then he's essentially working for free. Your idea sounds good in theory, but in the real world, church cleaning often gets done by the same handful of people over and over again. Expecting them to put in extra work for free is, IMO, selfish and insulting.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 1:59:56 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7962
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That goes back to what I've said but maybe not put into these words: doing weddings should be part of the job description of being "staff" at a church. That's what happens when you are salaried: sometimes you have to work extra hours without pay. If you are a salaried accountant you don't expect to work 9-5 the first two weeks of April and you don't get paid extra. THe same thing is true when you work for a church: sometimes you have to do extra duties for no extra pay. Either that or the church should take into account that when there's a wedding they will have to pay someone extra to come work but it's something that should be done for the members of the congregation.
quote:
That's all well and good, except that the reception usually follows the wedding ceremony, so any attendees are going to be at the party, not at the church cleaning.
As I've said before the people attending the wedding aren't expected to stick around and clean up. However, that's part of the job description of being the janitor and part of being part of God's family. If someone is getting married at my church and I don't know them well enough to be attending I should still be willing to help out if necessary.
IOW: members of the same local body should be there to serve each other...not worry about making money off others. OTOH, if someone is repeatedly taking advantage of a church that should be dealt with too.
If there are so many weddings that this is an every weekend occurrence then I would argue that the church is too large to effectively do what it needs to.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 2:18:35 PM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2085
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
This goes back to my earlier comment about what it costs to hire people. People are expensive. An organist, a minister, and a janitor have to put in at least 6 hours of work a piece. That's 18+ hours of labor, 2/3 of which could be considered "skilled." Even at $20/hr (which is really low), that's $360.
Harvie's post is basically what started this thread. I think she said $1,000 to use the church; mandatory $500 to a church wedding coordinator whose work was never apparent or found out; $500 to the pastor who makes $150,000/yr, and $250 to the organist. I think it's more fair to pay for the janitors maybe, and for general labor of others; but $2,250 seems to be too much for a church to charge a member, IMO. I don't see why the pastor needs half a grand to perform the ceremony. I can understand maybe a small fee.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 2:29:08 PM
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Ps103
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Every church I have ever attended (a whole host of denominations) had "open church weddings," meaning that the entire congregation was invited to attend. Because every church I have ever attended considered marriages to be a family affair--ie church family--as well as a religious service.
I have been to weddings where the reception was held elsewhere and was not open to all, but frankly not to many. But big receptions with sit-down dinners are not really a function of the church, but an optional party. Personally, I would not want to have a wedding with and "A" list and a "B" list, but that is just my opinion. I would rather have cake and punch for everyone rather than have to choose who is and is not invited to the reception. I have been to both kinds and do not consider the "big, expensive affairs" to be any more enjoyable. But I digress...
And in every church I have ever attended, everyone has been more than willing to chip in and help. If the florist is coming at 1pm and no one in the couple's family is available, all they have to do is pick up the phone and make a call--someone will be happy to go let the florist in. Most of the churches (but not all) have committees of people, called Parish Life committees or Fellowship committees that handle weddings and other life occurrences.
I have never been in a church where the seating was movable, so I am having a hard time even imagining someone requesting that the seating be changed. If someone did, I see nothing wrong with telling them "no," though.
I also have no problem with the couple's paying the custodian to clean up, unless the custodian is a full-time employee. In that event, I would consider keeping the church clean to be a part of the job, and weddings to be an expected occurrence at a church. I know of very few churches that employ full-time custodians, though, so this is not really something I have given a lot of thought to. If there *is* a full-time custodian, though, that employee should be able to handle the florist, bakery, etc when deliveries are made.
Even in theatres, light and sound equipment have two settings: on and off. It should not require a special team to come in and turn on the lights. If someone wants spotlights, special gels and effects, personally, I would just tell them no, but if they require such they should pay for it. It should not be a matter of course though, to pay someone to turn on the lights. And again, if these are full-time employees, this should be considered a part of their jobs and taken into account when they are negotiating their salaries. If someone is unwilling or unable to perform duties that would normally be a part of working in a church, they need to seek employment elsewhere. My opinion. Take it for what it is worth.
In my experience, not all employees of churches are members of said church, especially in the maintenance and clerical areas. So any duties they are expected to perform as a part of their employment need to be spelled out in hiring. For churches, I would think that it would be expected that there be extra work involved with weddings (and funerals, etc) as these are necessary parts of church life.
Now, I do not think that every whim of every bride (or mother thereof) must be indulged, and have absolutely no problem with telling people firmly what is and is not allowed. And I have never seen a church that did not have some sort of board that can come up with a written set of rules to be adhered to. And if some bride mistakes her church for the Winter Garden, I would say the pastor needs to have a long talk with her. Most parents do not indulge selfishness and tantrums in their children, and neither should churches indulge selfishness, ostentation or tantrums in their church families. Sometimes people do need to be informed that they are not a Disney princess  .
This is today's sermonette from station KATE. Take it for what you paid for it.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 2:32:42 PM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2085
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
That goes back to what I've said but maybe not put into these words: doing weddings should be part of the job description of being "staff" at a church. That's what happens when you are salaried: sometimes you have to work extra hours without pay. If you are a salaried accountant you don't expect to work 9-5 the first two weeks of April and you don't get paid extra. THe same thing is true when you work for a church: sometimes you have to do extra duties for no extra pay. Either that or the church should take into account that when there's a wedding they will have to pay someone extra to come work but it's something that should be done for the members of the congregation.
quote:
That's all well and good, except that the reception usually follows the wedding ceremony, so any attendees are going to be at the party, not at the church cleaning.
As I've said before the people attending the wedding aren't expected to stick around and clean up. However, that's part of the job description of being the janitor and part of being part of God's family. If someone is getting married at my church and I don't know them well enough to be attending I should still be willing to help out if necessary.
IOW: members of the same local body should be there to serve each other...not worry about making money off others. OTOH, if someone is repeatedly taking advantage of a church that should be dealt with too.
If there are so many weddings that this is an every weekend occurrence then I would argue that the church is too large to effectively do what it needs to.
I agree with most of this. There were times at my smaller church when we had weddings and showers and people just cleaned up. I used to clean up after some of them... other people after other things. I never was upset I wasn't paid, but there it was more like you just help out when you can... I guess cause no one had to force anyone else-- people just stepped up. Someone always did it, usually a few people would stay each time. I think at this larger church I attend, people are salaried and weddings, etc. are included in that salary.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 2:59:29 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Even in theatres, light and sound equipment have two settings: on and off.
??? In what theater is this? I guess all those mixing consoles, lighting boards, and (for the old timers) giant dimmer panels in every theater I've ever been in were just for show? I'll admit, I don't have much experience with weddings (had one of my own, been in a couple others, only recall working one for a friend), but I do know a thing or two about pro audio equipment (and to a lesser extent, lighting).
You should NEVER leave a live sound system in use and unattended. That's a good way to get something broken. What, nobody can hear the vows? Uncle Larry gets up to turn up the microphone, but doesn't know what he's doing - next thing you know, your FOH speakers start feeding back and the drivers get blown. You're lucky if the pastor even knows how to turn on the PA system. Yes, there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. Depending on how the system is configured, doing it the wrong way could blow up your speakers. The bigger the system, the more complicated it can be. If you've got multiple audio sources (e.g. cd, lav mic, musicians), then you absolutely need somebody back there. If the chapel has a digital console, let's see Uncle Larry try to figure that one out.
Lighting may or may not need a separate tech, it depends on the church and what they have for stage lighting. In smaller churches, that probably won't be the case, but in bigger (particularly tech-heavy) churches, it may very well be. If the stage lights are only controlled through a lighting board, and not a dimmer on the wall, then you'll at least need someone who knows how to turn the things on. Depending on the configuration, that may not be as easy as it sounds.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 3:00:12 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 534
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quote:
doing weddings should be part of the job description of being "staff" at a church. That's what happens when you are salaried:
I've said this over and over but don't seem to be getting through. The only salaried employee at most weddings is the pastor. The rest of the people who work these weddings are not salaried, they are paid by the hour.
It is ILLEGAL to have a part time person be "salaried". According to the U.S. Department of Labor:
"The minimum salary for a properly classified exempt (salaried) employee is $23,660 annually, which works out to $455 per week, under federal law. Even a part-time "exempt" employee must be paid this amount. The employer's only alternatives are to pay the full $23,660 to the part-time employee, or to pay the employee on an hourly basis, with overtime as applicable."
I don't think any church can afford to pay the technical employees who run sound, lights, plan weddings, musicians, etc. $455 a week when most of them only work 5-10 hours a week (and don't work every week). The only alternative is for them to non-exempt (hourly) employees who, again by law, MUST be paid for the hours they work and MUST receive overtime if they work more than 40 hours a week.
Because of the employment laws in this country, churches incur specific, incremental costs for having these people there to work weddings - it cannot be part of their job description.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 3:04:56 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 665
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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PS103,
What you describe is a SIMPLE WEDDING. Most weddings of people I know who are my age in church and out of church want more elaborate weddings.
G
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 3:15:17 PM
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trainfan
Posts: 2377
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: The land of confusion
Status: offline
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quote:
That goes back to what I've said but maybe not put into these words: doing weddings should be part of the job description of being "staff" at a church. That's what happens when you are salaried: sometimes you have to work extra hours without pay. If you are a salaried accountant you don't expect to work 9-5 the first two weeks of April and you don't get paid extra. THe same thing is true when you work for a church: sometimes you have to do extra duties for no extra pay. Either that or the church should take into account that when there's a wedding they will have to pay someone extra to come work but it's something that should be done for the members of the congregation.
Thanks for the definition of what salaried means, but I already knew that b/c on the weeks of Christmas and Easter and if it snowed a lot I usually had to put in 40+ hours at the church. So there were many times I did extra work and a ton of it for no extra pay.
quote:
As I've said before the people attending the wedding aren't expected to stick around and clean up. However, that's part of the job description of being the janitor and part of being part of God's family. If someone is getting married at my church and I don't know them well enough to be attending I should still be willing to help out if necessary.
Wait, the whole church is supposed to be at the wedding from what you have already posted, they are your family. So who is left to clean up? Your posts are not adding up here. From what I gather from your other posts if you don't know them well enough to attend their wedding then to put it in your own words your church is not functioning properly.
quote:
IOW: members of the same local body should be there to serve each other...not worry about making money off others. OTOH, if someone is repeatedly taking advantage of a church that should be dealt with too.
I just think people should be paid a fair wage for the work they are doing.
quote:
If there are so many weddings that this is an every weekend occurrence then I would argue that the church is too large to effectively do what it needs to.
So only small churches are "effective"?
_____________________________
Disappoints are inevitable, discouragment is a choice.
Dr. Charles Stanley.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 3:34:58 PM
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trainfan
Posts: 2377
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: The land of confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
PS103,
What you describe is a SIMPLE WEDDING. Most weddings of people I know who are my age in church and out of church want more elaborate weddings.
G
I was going to post a reply to that too but this sums it up perfectly.
Also iluvator is right on with the lighting and sound. The lighting control at the church where I worked was programable and only 2 people knew how to do that. There were regular lights above the platform but you couldn't use the spotlights unless you paid the lighting person to be there (much to the chagrin of photographers I might add).
_____________________________
Disappoints are inevitable, discouragment is a choice.
Dr. Charles Stanley.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 3:36:06 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 803
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From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
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quote:
Because of the employment laws in this country, churches incur specific, incremental costs for having these people there to work weddings - it cannot be part of their job description.
Though, our church has its own "wedding ministry".....with a "Director", and 5 coordinators on staff.
They are 6 VERY VERY busy people!
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 3:53:55 PM
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myka
Posts: 981
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quote:
Because of the employment laws in this country, churches incur specific, incremental costs for having these people there to work weddings - it cannot be part of their job description.
I think weddings can be part of the job description; however, churches would still incur costs for people there if they were not able to be classified as salaried employees.
Also, there are 'ways' that churches try to get out of paying people properly (like paying a set fee for certain projects rather than an hourly wage). That's bad practice, too.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 4:01:43 PM
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trainfan
Posts: 2377
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: The land of confusion
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quote:
And in every church I have ever attended, everyone has been more than willing to chip in and help. If the florist is coming at 1pm and no one in the couple's family is available, all they have to do is pick up the phone and make a call--someone will be happy to go let the florist in. Most of the churches (but not all) have committees of people, called Parish Life committees or Fellowship committees that handle weddings and other life occurrences.
I was thinking about this part of this post and had to say that in theory this sounds great but at the church where I worked the people (even some of the staff) could not be depended upon to shut off the lights and lock the door when they left. The janitors had to go check every night to make sure all the doors were locked and the lights were off. There were a number of times when not only found doors unlocked but proped wide open.
_____________________________
Disappoints are inevitable, discouragment is a choice.
Dr. Charles Stanley.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 4:08:10 PM
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gcsmithjr
Posts: 534
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
I think weddings can be part of the job description; however, churches would still incur costs for people there if they were not able to be classified as salaried employees.
You're right, thanks for pointing that out. They can be part of the job description but hourly employees still have to be paid by the hour for the time they work on them.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 4:45:26 PM
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solo_soprano23
Posts: 2085
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trainfan
quote:
And in every church I have ever attended, everyone has been more than willing to chip in and help. If the florist is coming at 1pm and no one in the couple's family is available, all they have to do is pick up the phone and make a call--someone will be happy to go let the florist in. Most of the churches (but not all) have committees of people, called Parish Life committees or Fellowship committees that handle weddings and other life occurrences.
I was thinking about this part of this post and had to say that in theory this sounds great but at the church where I worked the people (even some of the staff) could not be depended upon to shut off the lights and lock the door when they left. The janitors had to go check every night to make sure all the doors were locked and the lights were off. There were a number of times when not only found doors unlocked but proped wide open.
I think the question is, SHOULD a church be like that? I go to churches like Ps103 describes, and it works well for us... I'm glad we have people to give of their time volunarily for celebrations (weddings, baptisms, funerals) without pay, but it is right for members of a church family to have to have money for what celebrations they help with every time? I think that's more the question here... or maybe it's how much people are being charged for things as well. I'd hate to think I'd need to pay my sisters and parents and cousins for helping with my wedding on the day of and/or night before the wedding... that's my family and I'd do it for them. Why is the church family different? Or should we be expected to pay our relatives for what they do for us on the wedding day? I think I do have some family members who'd charge me for that.  
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 5:02:27 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: trainfan
quote:
And in every church I have ever attended, everyone has been more than willing to chip in and help. If the florist is coming at 1pm and no one in the couple's family is available, all they have to do is pick up the phone and make a call--someone will be happy to go let the florist in. Most of the churches (but not all) have committees of people, called Parish Life committees or Fellowship committees that handle weddings and other life occurrences.
I was thinking about this part of this post and had to say that in theory this sounds great but at the church where I worked the people (even some of the staff) could not be depended upon to shut off the lights and lock the door when they left. The janitors had to go check every night to make sure all the doors were locked and the lights were off. There were a number of times when not only found doors unlocked but proped wide open.
I think that, in general, we've got one group of people talking about things from the perspective of a very small church, and another talking about things from the perspective of a rather large church. The overhead at a large church is a lot bigger/higher than it is at a small church; as such "little things" like turning on the lights, setting up chairs, and cleaning the floor can be more difficult (or at least laborious). My parents church can seat maybe 200 people if you're ambitious; all of the lights and windows and both of the doors can be checked in under a minute - maybe 2-3 minutes if some windows have to be closed. OTOH, a large church like kerns' has over a dozen outside doors, dozens of classrooms, hundreds of windows and lights, and a multi-zone security system - just checking the windows and doors could take a half-hour or more. My parents' church is cleaned with a broom and a mop; kerns' uses professional floor cleaners (I don't know how to use those, do you?). The sound system in my parents' church has a 24 channel mackie mixer and one amp and can be turned on with one switch; kerns' church has a Yamaha PM1D in one room and a pair of Midas Legend 3000's in another. My parents' church has a half-dozen light switches and a couple wall-mounted dimmers; kerns' church has over a thousand dimmers and a $57,000 grandMA lighting console (can you get around on one of those? I can't).
BTW: Kerns - if you guys ever upgrade and don't know what to do with your old stuff, I'm sure your church plant in Cambridge would be glad to take it off your hands.
-Dan.
< Message edited by iluvatar -- 7/7/2009 5:23:15 PM >
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 5:12:05 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 665
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
I think that, in general, we've got one group of people talking about things from the perspective of a very small church, and another talking about things from the perspective of a rather large church
I agree and to add the simple and complex weddings.
As I said before i think people miss the fact of how complicated weddings can become. It's really not a 3 hour (including rehearsal event). I have been in wedding parties and helped in weddings that have taken upwards of 20 hours of time at the church the day before and the day of and the bride and groom still weren't happy.
I am all for an hour rehearsal and a short wedding be free or very cheap. But I know that if many women came to their wedding day and realized that there was no adjustment on the sound system, or the lighting system, moving things around. if people would keep it simple i think we would not be in this situation.
g
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 5:24:31 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano23
I think the question is, SHOULD a church be like that? I go to churches like Ps103 describes, and it works well for us... I'm glad we have people to give of their time volunarily for celebrations (weddings, baptisms, funerals) without pay, but it is right for members of a church family to have to have money for what celebrations they help with every time? I think that's more the question here... or maybe it's how much people are being charged for things as well. I'd hate to think I'd need to pay my sisters and parents and cousins for helping with my wedding on the day of and/or night before the wedding... that's my family and I'd do it for them. Why is the church family different? Or should we be expected to pay our relatives for what they do for us on the wedding day? I think I do have some family members who'd charge me for that.
I think it's just a difference between a big church and a small church. In a small church, most people are qualified to do most of the jobs. As a church grows in size, the staff has to be more specialized. In a small church, you can leave the paper towels in the kitchen unlocked w/o worrying about them disappearing. In a large church, you give a couple maintenance personnel keys to a locked supply room, or else you'll potentially have hundreds of congregants, sunday school teachers, and other staff raiding the supplies, leaving them a disorganized mess.
As jobs within a church become more specialized, it becomes more difficult for outsiders to do them properly w/o screwing things up. If you rely solely upon the regular staff, then as the church gets busier, those people are going to get more and more overworked.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 5:33:25 PM
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trainfan
Posts: 2377
Joined: 7/26/2007
From: The land of confusion
Status: offline
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quote:
As jobs within a church become more specialized, it becomes more difficult for outsiders to do them properly w/o screwing things up. If you rely solely upon the regular staff, then as the church gets busier, those people are going to get more and more overworked.
Exactly when I started cleaning at the church it was 1 night a week as the church grew and moved and then built their own building and moved into it and then got progressivly busier I was eventually working 5 nights a week and part of Sunday afternoon and evening. That is assuming there were no weddings that weekend. A wedding automatically added Saturday to the mix even if the wedding was on Friday night as you couldn't do the Friday night work then, since there was a wedding.
There was cleaning equipment that not just anyone could run like the spray buffer we used on the tiled floors and the carpet cleaner we used to clean up spills on the carpet.
_____________________________
Disappoints are inevitable, discouragment is a choice.
Dr. Charles Stanley.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 6:18:08 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 7962
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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quote:
Wait, the whole church is supposed to be at the wedding from what you have already posted, they are your family. So who is left to clean up? Your posts are not adding up here. From what I gather from your other posts if you don't know them well enough to attend their wedding then to put it in your own words your church is not functioning properly.
quote:
IOW: members of the same local body should be there to serve each other...not worry about making money off others. OTOH, if someone is repeatedly taking advantage of a church that should be dealt with too.
I just think people should be paid a fair wage for the work they are doing.
I never said that I expected the whole church to be at the wedding.
As for being paid: I do believe that there should be volunteer committees or such that take care of these things. If these extra people need to be paid then THAT SHOULD BE PART OF THE CHURCH BUDGET FOR MEMBERS. If the need to be paid, so be it but the church should provide those funds for their members.
As for being efficient. I don't think only small churches are efficient but I think they are more efficient and that large churches have certain drawbacks that prevent them from being able to minister to everyone.
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L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 7:22:32 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3044
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
As for being efficient. I don't think only small churches are efficient but I think they are more efficient and that large churches have certain drawbacks that prevent them from being able to minister to everyone.
Not to get too OT, but I don't necessarily think that large churches are any more or less efficient than small churches, nor are the any more or less effective at ministering to everyone. For example: Kerns' church has over 10K people and a sound system that costs $1.2M, which is the same per-person cost as a church with 100 people spending $12K. They have 6 people on staff to handle weddings, which comes out to 1 wedding coordinator for every 1700 members. Those are both below average (i.e. more efficient) and I guarantee that their $1.2M system serves their 10K people more effectively than a $12K system would a church of 100. I don't have figures, but I'd also bet that commercial-scale heating and cooling units are more efficient per person than are the consumer-grade units found in a small church.
In my experience, small churches generally do well serving younger children, middle-aged parents, and grandparents, while older teens, college students, and young married couples often go forgotten or at least under-represented and under-supported. They also seem to cater more to blue-collar workers than to highly-educated professionals. A single 26 yr old financial analyst or research scientist would likely feel out of place. However, due to local demographics, my small church (~250/wk) is an exception to that rule: we have an overwhelming number of college students, young couples, and professionals, but very few children and no teenagers I can think of. It's a great place for that 26 yr old research scientist, but not so great for his 14 yr old cousin.
Big churches, OTOH, usually have a more diverse congregation and the financial resources to minister to a wider variety of subgroups. Yes, they can have their drawbacks and feel impersonal, but so can small churches and IMO, it's more a matter of effective execution than of a problem inherent to the church's size.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 9:14:19 PM
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pruned
Posts: 1582
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Actually, I think we're talking about more than just church size, we've begun discussing church culture. When someone describes church as something should be done to be effective, and someone else disagrees, then in my view, that's not about size, the argument is about the way things are done. That's culture.
In some cultures, having everyone there and everyone pitch in and clean up... well, that's just the way it's done. It might be a very small church, although it could be much larger. I doubt that this kind of culture could carry over to a congregation that's a small-medium size church, though. One of the posters suggested that if the bridal couple needed the building unlocked for the florist, for example, they just needed to pick up the phone and call someone. In even a small-medium size church (say 250 attendance), I daresay that most everyone actually does not have a key to the building. Further most in a church that size don't want one. I've never had a key to a church building unless I was on staff there. At every church I've been a member, I've been an active leader in many capacities. I wouldn't, however, have a key and be able to let in the florist or baker even if I wanted to.
Another comment was made about inviting the whole church. I've been a member of those churches, too. Again, most of the churches I have attended are the same size as mentioned above. a small-medium size congregation. Not every person gets their own invitation... there's one pinned to the bulletin board. We did this for my son's HS graduation party. Clearly not everyone came, just a few of our closest friends. It's a courtesy as well as notification of the event. The average church member looks and says, "Hey, pruned's son's graduating!" And they go on their way with nary another thought about it, even though it was clearly an invitation to the event. Those who are making the invitation are usually aware of this, so they can easily guess how many "generic" folks will attend and compensate accordingly.
I think from this thread one can make some observations. For example, there is more than one right way to do a thing. Sometimes the way one church handles its events is different than the way another church does theirs. That doesn't mean one is better or more effective. It means they make decisions about how their church, their church events, their church staff, their member volunteers, their budget, and their church buildings will be used under their own set of unique circumstances and church values. Each church is called of God to do certain things. There is a whole forum to discuss what a church's role is. But the bottom line is, each congregation gets to choose, to decide what and how to do what God has called them to do. And if that means charging for weddings and personnel while another church does not, that simply means they both are doing what they know to do and they are both doing it well.
I know this post is long but please bear with me for one more thought.
It seems to me this thread has become very contentious. Let's try to find some common ground, encourage one another, and build each other up in the Lord. I challenge us... find something someone said from "the other side", appreciate their point of view and applaud them for doing well.
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I owe more to the fire, and the hammer, and the file, than anything else in the Lord's workshop. -- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 10:37:17 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10572
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
The problem is that there are at least 2 kinds of weddings.
Maybe we need to be simpler people. If people want "free" then they need to understand this is what you get and maybe the compromise here is that the church will just have that out lined. And if yuo want the extravagance then you will certainly pay.
Well said! I don't think most of us really have a clue the incredible amount of work folks put into weddings. I've seen weddings where the wedding coordinator and custodian spent more than 12 hours in one day working - and only got yelled at and snarked at.
I've known custodians who make little more than minimum wage (because when you work for a church, you shouldn't be properly compensated because you're working for a church  ) who have worked until 3 or 4am cleaning up and resetting everything from a wedding, only to have to get up early the next morning before the rest of us even get out of the shower to have church ready for Sunday services... Say what you will about the way things "should be", the reality is, we live in a fallen world and people can be morons to each other - even in the church. And unfortunately, some of the cruelest stuff is taken out on church staff because it's their "job"...
And maybe it's the area I live in, but I grew up in a small church where my parents did EVERYTHING. I've actually experience more giving and community in the bigger churches. The fact is the size of a church says NOTHING about how "good" it is. There are great small ones and lousy small ones, great big ones and lousy big ones. Sad, but true.
quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
Also, there are 'ways' that churches try to get out of paying people properly (like paying a set fee for certain projects rather than an hourly wage). That's bad practice, too.
Unfortunately it's quite common and is generally pushed by the church members who feel that paying church staff anything aside from the minimum is only because church staff are greedy because they should be working for "free" since this is a church...
Scripture has something different to say on the matter though: It tells us a worker is due his wages and it doesn't have an exception for church workers.
quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
As for being efficient. I don't think only small churches are efficient but I think they are more efficient and that large churches have certain drawbacks that prevent them from being able to minister to everyone.
Wow. 
I guess what is rocking my little world here is that I am a member of a large church and maybe I don't get most of this thread because I have been blessed beyond words by my church and don't feel I'm owed anymore by my church. I feel in debt to my church for all the ways I have been ministered too - why should I expect them to do even more for me?
To be honest, I've never attended a small church that ever felt like my family, but I've attended 3 different large church (different places) who my heart will always belong to. I'm not dissing small churches, because I know there are many amazing small churches out there - just dissing the idea that all large churches are impersonal and incapable of community.
quote:
ORIGINAL: pruned
I think from this thread one can make some observations. For example, there is more than one right way to do a thing. Sometimes the way one church handles its events is different than the way another church does theirs. That doesn't mean one is better or more effective. It means they make decisions about how their church, their church events, their church staff, their member volunteers, their budget, and their church buildings will be used under their own set of unique circumstances and church values. Each church is called of God to do certain things. There is a whole forum to discuss what a church's role is. But the bottom line is, each congregation gets to choose, to decide what and how to do what God has called them to do. And if that means charging for weddings and personnel while another church does not, that simply means they both are doing what they know to do and they are both doing it well.
Exactly!!!!!!! We're trying to fit every church into the same mold and it doesn't work that way! What works for one, doesn't work for all... And it's not because one is better than the other - it just means we're different!
Alleluia!!!!!
quote:
It seems to me this thread has become very contentious. Let's try to find some common ground, encourage one another, and build each other up in the Lord. I challenge us... find something someone said from "the other side", appreciate their point of view and applaud them for doing well.
Well said and you are right!
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One final thought of something I just thought of - Part of the disconnect here (and I do believe we have a disconnect in this thread) could very well be strictly practical. If someone from a small church wants the big to-do, they won't get married in their church - they'll get married at a large church or hotel. Consequently, those in small churches probably only see the simple weddings because an elaborate wedding could not be held at their church.
On the other hand, folks I know who wanted a small and simple wedding at my church tend to get married at someone's house or rent a small chapel (a small wedding would be overwhelmed by the size of our facility). The only folks who tend to want to get married in my church (with it's very large sanctuary) are those who want the big hooplah. So, we see issues that those in a small church simply won't see - and we see them on a consistant enough basis that the church has HAD to address them.
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~Kristin~
Did you ever notice there are no recipes for leftover chocolate?
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RE: Churches / pastors charging $$$ for weddings? - 7/7/2009 10:46:07 PM
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draexo
Posts: 121
Joined: 1/26/2007
From: Saratoga County, New York
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
No charge for the sanctuary or the fellowship hall.
And I never charge for any of my service.
Thanks
RC
I agree with you on this. I just don't see Jesus charging for a wedding... it sounds like consumerism Christianity. And I am not really sure why someone would get married at another church - a wedding is not about the building, its about a relationship between a man and a wife.
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The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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