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[Poll]
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Is pornography really adultery?
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| yes it is adultery- I am not married. |
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| no it is not adultery- I am not married |
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| yes it is- I am married/have used pornography |
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| no it isn't- married/ have used pornography |
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| yes it is- married/ neither have used pornography |
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| no it isn't- married/neither have used pornography |
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| yes it is- married/ spouse has used pornography |
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| no it isn't-married/spouse has used pornography |
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| other |
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Total Votes : 50
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(last vote on : 9/7/2009 10:28:41 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 8:17:07 PM
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p31mom
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Reading around in the marriage section has made me curious of the general consensus.
Is pornography really adultery?
For the purpose of the thread we can define pornography as the use of pornographic materials for gratification.
What would not be considered pornography for the purposes of this thread would be a graphic scene in an R rated movie that was seen without the intent of gratification.
Edit to add: For clarification, a good definition should be "intentionally having sex with an image"
I gave a lot of choices, so choose the best option. I am wondering if having dealt with this before affects ones opinion.
For the record. I believe that pornography is very rampant in the Christian community because we allow it to be. I believe it is absolutely adultery.
Thanks for your opinion and thoughts.
< Message edited by p31mom -- 6/27/2009 6:36:01 AM >
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 8:20:30 PM
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BlessedMamaofmany
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yes.it.is.
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:28 Jesus didn't say anything He didn't mean. Just because the christian community has gone soft on immodesty and lustful attitudes in general doesn't negate scripture.
I say this as someone who has btdt in her own marriage...both consensually before we were saved, and my husband in secret after we were saved. It is adultery.
_____________________________
Atheism: The belief that there was nothing, nothing happened to nothing, then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits that then turned into dinosaurs
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 8:29:17 PM
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pruned
Posts: 1582
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Yes. It is adultery. I am divorced as a direct result of my ex's addiction. Pornography is rreeeaaalllllyyy ugly.
(BTW... the poll didn't seem to be working... I couldn't answer.)
_____________________________
I owe more to the fire, and the hammer, and the file, than anything else in the Lord's workshop. -- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 9:02:40 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10981
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From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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[I fixed the poll. be sure the box, "no deadline," is checked when setting up the poll.]
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(Avatar: Turkeys are all saying "Moo")
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 9:10:27 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3045
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
yes.it.is.
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:28 Jesus didn't say anything He didn't mean. Just because the christian community has gone soft on immodesty and lustful attitudes in general doesn't negate scripture.
I think that interpretation somewhat misses the point that Jesus was making. He was trying to say that lust is also a sin. 1 John 3:15 also says that "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer" but I don't think too many people will argue that hating someone is as bad as actually killing them.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 9:37:08 PM
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BlessedMamaofmany
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
yes.it.is.
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:28 Jesus didn't say anything He didn't mean. Just because the christian community has gone soft on immodesty and lustful attitudes in general doesn't negate scripture.
I think that interpretation somewhat misses the point that Jesus was making. He was trying to say that lust is also a sin. 1 John 3:15 also says that "Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer" but I don't think too many people will argue that hating someone is as bad as actually killing them.
-Dan.
Sin is sin. In God's eyes, hating your brother IS as bad as killing them. In God's eyes lusting after a woman (in this thread, via porn) IS as bad as actually having sex with her.
_____________________________
Atheism: The belief that there was nothing, nothing happened to nothing, then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits that then turned into dinosaurs
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 9:48:02 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1037
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Hmm.
So, shall we go to church on Sunday, identify all the the people who have ever used pornography as adulterers, and go have a big stone-them-to-death party in the parking lot?
I must admit, I've always been a little confused about the whole "you can get a divorce if your spouse committed adultery". They were supposed to be stoned to death, which would make divorce rather a moot point, wouldn't it?
quote:
Sin is sin. In God's eyes, hating your brother IS as bad as killing them. In God's eyes lusting after a woman (in this thread, via porn) IS as bad as actually having sex with her.
Sin is sin, yes... but if any man keepeth the whole law, and yet offendeth in ONE point, he is guilty of all... so if you've ever told a lie, then technically you're also guilty of adultery.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 9:54:52 PM
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BlessedMamaofmany
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Hmm.
So, shall we go to church on Sunday, identify all the the people who have ever used pornography as adulterers, and go have a big stone-them-to-death party in the parking lot?
I must admit, I've always been a little confused about the whole "you can get a divorce if your spouse committed adultery". They were supposed to be stoned to death, which would make divorce rather a moot point, wouldn't it?
quote:
Sin is sin. In God's eyes, hating your brother IS as bad as killing them. In God's eyes lusting after a woman (in this thread, via porn) IS as bad as actually having sex with her.
Sin is sin, yes... but if any man keepeth the whole law, and yet offendeth in ONE point, he is guilty of all... so if you've ever told a lie, then technically you're also guilty of adultery.
of course not  ...uh hello? Forgiven in the blood?? 
Fine then. I am guilty of breaking the whole law. I am a worthless sinner...covered by the blood. I'm not sure why some think that scripture is wavering here. Sin IS sin. We ARE all guilty of the most grievous sin. No matter what it is. This ''sliding scale'' to grade sin is not biblical...based upon the scripture YOU just referenced. 
_____________________________
Atheism: The belief that there was nothing, nothing happened to nothing, then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits that then turned into dinosaurs
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 9:59:52 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1037
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The first part wasn't replying to you mama.
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The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 10:04:36 PM
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pruned
Posts: 1582
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Hmm.
So, shall we go to church on Sunday, identify all the the people who have ever used pornography as adulterers, and go have a big stone-them-to-death party in the parking lot?
No. But if they choose to identify themselves, and they are repentant about their sin, we should restore them gently.
quote:
I must admit, I've always been a little confused about the whole "you can get a divorce if your spouse committed adultery". They were supposed to be stoned to death, which would make divorce rather a moot point, wouldn't it?
Let's be clear. I didn't divorce my husband solely because he was viewing pornography. He was looking at child pornography, caught, charged, and heavily fined. He was so involved with pornography he couldn't go to work for being on his computer, and he could get very ugly with my son. Eventually we left because of the abuse. This is why I said porn is really ugly. Like any addiction, it is an ugly downward spiral. People wondered why I waited so long to leave. In retrospect, I did wait too long.
I looked at it like this.. the Bible gives us permission to get a divorce for adultery, not a mandate. I stayed because I didn't find the clause "for richer or poorer, for better for worse, in sickness or in health... but when it gets really bad, pruned, you can quit." I think we give up on marriages and our spouses too easily.
_____________________________
I owe more to the fire, and the hammer, and the file, than anything else in the Lord's workshop. -- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 10:13:07 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1037
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I wasn't really referring to your comment pruned, my apologies if you thought I was commenting negatively on your divorce. I always just found that odd, in the Old Testament, that people could get a divorce if their spouse had committed adultery, but that they were supposed to have stoned them anyway, so it would seem that such a "divorce pass" would be unnecessary.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 10:22:21 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 2213
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
So, shall we go to church on Sunday, identify all the the people who have ever used pornography as adulterers, and go have a big stone-them-to-death party in the parking lot?
So if we got all the people who've sinned in any way, who would be left to throw the stones? Like playing volleyball with everyone on the same side of the net.
quote:
I must admit, I've always been a little confused about the whole "you can get a divorce if your spouse committed adultery". They were supposed to be stoned to death, which would make divorce rather a moot point, wouldn't it?
Hahaha! Good point. That would take more study than I'm up to tonight (this heat is killing me and I've been prepping a church for a wedding. Exhausting); but some sexual sin resulted in fines. I may be thinking of singles, though.
quote:
Sin is sin, yes... but if any man keepeth the whole law, and yet offendeth in ONE point, he is guilty of all... so if you've ever told a lie, then technically you're also guilty of adultery.
Yes, and when this was given, it was the only means of salvation: moral perfection*. Now we depend on the shed blood of God's Perfect Lamb for our salvation, and that blood washed us from our guilt. It doesn't mean we didn't sin, it just means it's forgiven. We are free to love God and obey Him willingly instead of being scared to death of losing our salvation and fighting for it in our own (failing) strength.
Is adultery still sin? Sure is. But we have unsaved people who live continuously in sin, and we have people who believe in God, have been saved by God and are being sanctified by God: their sins are forgiven and turned away from. As God works on our sanctification, we avoid the big sins like the sexual kind, and start turning away from the smaller and smaller ones.
When we know we're not supposed to do something as obvious as adultery, we can avoid the first step of the dance and never go any further.
If a person claimed to be saved and kept doing adultery, I'd question his relationship with God. If a person claimed to be saved and kept getting mad because his kid threw rocks through the window, I'd figure God was working on his anger.
*unless you read between the lines and realized the Old Testament promised the Messiah would come as God's sacrifice for sin for us. King David knew that, but I'm not sure how he ever figured it out. It's not obvious. At least some of the OT prophets knew it, too, and really wanted to know the details. Of course, they didn't get them, but we do now.
The question of whether porn is adultery could be simplified by does the person get a sexual thrill from someone other than their mate, especially if the porn results in a climax. That's real obvious then.
_____________________________
"Through Gates of Splendor" by Elizabeth Elliot
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www.biblegateway.com for online concordance (I use it daily)
"Passion and Purity" by Elizabeth Elliot
And I think chickens are really funny
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 10:27:19 PM
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pruned
Posts: 1582
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I wasn't really referring to your comment pruned, my apologies if you thought I was commenting negatively on your divorce. I always just found that odd, in the Old Testament, that people could get a divorce if their spouse had committed adultery, but that they were supposed to have stoned them anyway, so it would seem that such a "divorce pass" would be unnecessary.
I've learned over time that I have to defend my actions among Christians. We don't talk about pornography in Christian circles, let alone in healthy and healing ways. We don't support those whose lives have been affected, changed, damaged or used. Instead, I've found that we judge and point fingers self righteously. My husband was not only not repentent, even when he was found guilty by a judge in a court of law, he refused to acknowledge he had done anything unlawful let alone immoral.
I'll have to take a look at those OT passages again.
_____________________________
I owe more to the fire, and the hammer, and the file, than anything else in the Lord's workshop. -- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 10:33:49 PM
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p31mom
Posts: 23
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
I wasn't really referring to your comment pruned, my apologies if you thought I was commenting negatively on your divorce. I always just found that odd, in the Old Testament, that people could get a divorce if their spouse had committed adultery, but that they were supposed to have stoned them anyway, so it would seem that such a "divorce pass" would be unnecessary.
Jesus reaffirms this in the new testament.
Matthew 19: 3-8
3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?"
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."
Of course the reason it is important to define what is adultery is because of whether or not it allows for divorce.
Edit to add: I would hope though that to be true to scripture we would all define for ourselves what adultery is or is not without letting the potential ramifications of that decision to influence us. We should define adultery based on God's standards. I think people tend to excuse this sin so much because they see the potential for a lot of divorces.
quote:
Deermousie said:
The question of whether porn is adultery could be simplified by does the person get a sexual thrill from someone other than their mate, especially if the porn results in a climax. That's real obvious then.
In the OP that is how I defined pornography...as using something for intentional gratification. I wanted to rule out instances where people were tempted by lust and trying to fight against it when they see something unintentional (like something on TV or in a movie)
< Message edited by p31mom -- 6/26/2009 10:57:24 PM >
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 11:06:44 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3045
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
Sin is sin. In God's eyes, hating your brother IS as bad as killing them. In God's eyes lusting after a woman (in this thread, via porn) IS as bad as actually having sex with her.
Yes, in God's eyes, you're correct, because to Him, all sin is equally bad. To him, a cross word to your spouse is just as sinful as beating them with a crowbar. However, that doesn't mean that from a practical, terrestrial perspective, both sins should be handled in the same way.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 11:39:45 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
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From: The South
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quote:
BlessedMamaofmany:
Jesus didn't say anything He didn't mean. Just because the christian community has gone soft on immodesty and lustful attitudes in general doesn't negate scripture.
I say this as someone who has btdt in her own marriage...both consensually before we were saved, and my husband in secret after we were saved. It is adultery.
I'll ditto this. Very well said (especially the bolded phrase) and is similar to my own experience.
There are people who are unsaved, people who are saved and being sanctified (trying to live righteously), and there are people who call themselves "Christians" who embrace sexual immorality. Deermousie explains the difference so well here:
quote:
But we have unsaved people who live continuously in sin, and we have people who believe in God, have been saved by God and are being sanctified by God: their sins are forgiven and turned away from. As God works on our sanctification, we avoid the big sins like the sexual kind, and start turning away from the smaller and smaller ones.
When we know we're not supposed to do something as obvious as adultery, we can avoid the first step of the dance and never go any further.
If a person claimed to be saved and kept doing adultery, I'd question his relationship with God. If a person claimed to be saved and kept getting mad because his kid threw rocks through the window, I'd figure God was working on his anger.
Frankly, I find it quite surprising that some Christians don't view porn as being adultery. Receiving sexual gratification using another person's image is getting sexual satisfaction from a source other than your spouse which is cheating which is adultery. Our sexuality is supposed to be reserved for our spouses.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/26/2009 11:47:09 PM
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Zhi
Posts: 1037
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Mmm.
I'm finding it interesting that even in the OP, people are already caveating away... R movies don't count, it doesn't really count if you're struggling against it, it may not count if you don't climax, etc. Jesus didn't really specify whether the thought was "fleeting" or not.
So I'll throw another wrench in.
What about women who read smutty romance novels, or fantasize about attractive actors/singers/models?
And, perhaps more importantly...
Do you really think Jesus basically gave permission to anyone to divorce their spouse if their spouse so much as had a single lustful thought?
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/27/2009 12:33:42 AM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
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From: The South
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Mmm.
I'm finding it interesting that even in the OP, people are already caveating away... R movies don't count, it doesn't really count if you're struggling against it, it may not count if you don't climax, etc. Jesus didn't really specify whether the thought was "fleeting" or not.
So I'll throw another wrench in.
What about women who read smutty romance novels, or fantasize about attractive actors/singers/models?
And, perhaps more importantly...
Do you really think Jesus basically gave permission to anyone to divorce their spouse if their spouse so much as had a single lustful thought?
Don't you think there is a big difference in the heart of a person who had a single lustful thought and the heart of a person who lives a life filled with lust? It's all about the heart.
And yes, women who read smut and fantasize about anyone other than their spouse are wrong to do so.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/27/2009 12:36:44 AM
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MowTin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
Do you really think Jesus basically gave permission to anyone to divorce their spouse if their spouse so much as had a single lustful thought?
Good point.
Here is another:
If lust is adultery then anger is murder.
So, if you catch your husband looking at pornography and get angry then you have committed murder.
If you don't use common sense when interpreting the Bible you get absurdity and dangerous distortion. The false teaching that pornography is equivalent to adultery leads to divorce.
Viewing some magazine lustfully every Thursday is not equivalent to sleeping with your secretary every Thursday. You can't get your magazine pregnant. You can't destroy your magazine's life. You can't catch an STD from your magazine and pass it on to your wife. You can't run away and marry your magazine.
What Jesus clearly meant is that there is no difference between a man who lusts after another man's wife but has no opportunity and a man who lusts and gets the opportunity to satisfy his lust. The lust has to be such that if given the opportunity you would act on it. The same with anger. Anger has to be so intense that if given the opportunity you would murder.
But of course none of us can be sure what we would do if given the opportunity. So, we should avoid lust and anger because they can lead to adultery and murder. But that in no way means that they are equivalent. That certainly wasn't Jesus' intent.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/27/2009 12:45:40 AM
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Zhi
Posts: 1037
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quote:
Don't you think there is a big difference in the heart of a person who had a single lustful thought and the heart of a person who lives a life filled with lust? It's all about the heart.
Absolutely. But don't you think there's a big difference between someone who looks at porn and someone who actually goes out and has sex with other women?
It's kind of an all or nothing thing. If we're taking what Jesus said to the barest, most literal sense, then there apparently really IS NOT a difference between someone who had a single lustful thought and a person who went out and had sex with someone who is not his wife. If we're taking what Jesus said as indicative of how holy and high God's standards are, and what we should aspire to and struggle towards, then we can be a little more sensible about things. Including not pushing for murder convictions for anyone who's had a hateful thought toward a brother.
quote:
And yes, women who read smut and fantasize about anyone other than their spouse are wrong to do so.
I didn't ask if it was wrong. I asked if it was adultery.
_____________________________
The optimist says the glass is half full. The pessimist says the glass is half empty. The engineer says the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/27/2009 6:27:59 AM
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p31mom
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I wasn't trying to create caveats for the purpose of excusing sin. Obviously watching anything that is impure and that the Holy Spirit convicts us about is sin.
I was trying to establish the difference between watching something unintentionally which is unavoidable and watching something with the intention of having sex with that image. I think that is a fair and neccessary distinction.
quote:
Absolutely. But don't you think there's a big difference between someone who looks at porn and someone who actually goes out and has sex with other women?
It's kind of an all or nothing thing. If we're taking what Jesus said to the barest, most literal sense, then there apparently really IS NOT a difference between someone who had a single lustful thought and a person who went out and had sex with someone who is not his wife. If we're taking what Jesus said as indicative of how holy and high God's standards are, and what we should aspire to and struggle towards, then we can be a little more sensible about things. Including not pushing for murder convictions for anyone who's had a hateful thought toward a brother.
I agree that there is a real spectrum of sin and where is the line drawn? Is it only sexual intercourse or is it one lustful thought? It is all sin, but is it all adultery? The next question would be, if the use of pornography is not adultery then when is that line crossed and why is the line drawn there?
I think that the key goes back to my distinction in the OP. Are you intentionally having sex with an image?
God certainly thinks that worshiping an image is idolotry...you don't have to worship an actual being for it to count.
< Message edited by p31mom -- 6/27/2009 7:01:49 AM >
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/27/2009 6:37:44 AM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 681
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zhi
quote:
Don't you think there is a big difference in the heart of a person who had a single lustful thought and the heart of a person who lives a life filled with lust? It's all about the heart.
Absolutely. But don't you think there's a big difference between someone who looks at porn and someone who actually goes out and has sex with other women?
In their hearts they are the same, there is no difference.
quote:
quote:
And yes, women who read smut and fantasize about anyone other than their spouse are wrong to do so.
I didn't ask if it was wrong. I asked if it was adultery.
Yes, it is adultery. There is no difference between that and men who use porn.
Lusting after someone other than your spouse is sin. Jesus said it's the same as committing adultery in your heart. Seems He takes it pretty seriously and so should we.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Is pornography really adultery? - 6/27/2009 8:32:12 AM
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BlessedMamaofmany
Posts: 1709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
Sin is sin. In God's eyes, hating your brother IS as bad as killing them. In God's eyes lusting after a woman (in this thread, via porn) IS as bad as actually having sex with her.
Yes, in God's eyes, you're correct, because to Him, all sin is equally bad. To him, a cross word to your spouse is just as sinful as beating them with a crowbar. However, that doesn't mean that from a practical, terrestrial perspective, both sins should be handled in the same way.
-Dan.
I didn't say they should be handled the same way...but it's important to remember that because sin is sin, it shouldn't be dismissed or treated as less then because it's ''not as bad''
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ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
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ORIGINAL: Zhi
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And yes, women who read smut and fantasize about anyone other than their spouse are wrong to do so.
I didn't ask if it was wrong. I asked if it was adultery.
Yes, it is adultery. There is no difference between that and men who use porn.
Lusting after someone other than your spouse is sin. Jesus said it's the same as committing adultery in your heart. Seems He takes it pretty seriously and so should we.
I agree. It is the same for men and women (though shamefully, most don't view it that way..)
_____________________________
Atheism: The belief that there was nothing, nothing happened to nothing, then nothing magically exploded for no reason, creating everything, then a bunch of everything magically rearranged itself into self-replicating bits that then turned into dinosaurs
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