|
|
|
|
|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 7:55:58 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
I have to say the current discussion in this thread is a bit moot, since the House added a 300 page amendment to the 1200 page bill the day of it's passage, and very few peiople voting on it (nor likely many of the people discussing it here) have any idea what it will actually do. From what is known, it will do almost nothing to reduce greehouse gasses; though it may create enough bureauctratic regulation to increase fuel costs and hurt businesses. Just another gift from our dreamy-eyed President and his know-nothing congress.
Even Obama's energy Czar has no idea what is in the bill.
The bold is what I am reading in that bill. I am also seeing many new regulations that the average joe is going to be "forced" to comply with. I believe these new regulations are going to hamper the average person's ability to save for the future, buy a home or even put their existing home on the market without spending a pot load of money up front.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 8:00:25 AM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1844
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
the thing that really bothers me is that market forces were already at work to push towards conservation. Energy costs have continued to rise and people are finding ways to conserve in light of that, they are making their homes more energy efficient, buying more efficient cars, there are windfarms sprouting up all over the place in the hill country of Texas of all places. So my question is, wouldn't a solution that developed out of natural market forces be a much more stable solution than one quickly implemented to satisfy a cap and trade regulation?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 8:00:57 AM
|
|
|
mikeman2
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LizzieJ.
quote:
I have to say the current discussion in this thread is a bit moot, since the House added a 300 page amendment to the 1200 page bill the day of it's passage, and very few peiople voting on it (nor likely many of the people discussing it here) have any idea what it will actually do. From what is known, it will do almost nothing to reduce greehouse gasses; though it may create enough bureauctratic regulation to increase fuel costs and hurt businesses. Just another gift from our dreamy-eyed President and his know-nothing congress.
Even Obama's energy Czar has no idea what is in the bill.
The bold is what I am reading in that bill. I am also seeing many new regulations that the average joe is going to be "forced" to comply with. I believe these new regulations are going to hamper the average person's ability to save for the future, buy a home or even put their existing home on the market without spending a pot load of money up front.
I heard that one of the provisions in the bill was that before you can sell your home, a member of the EPA gestapo must come out and survey your house to see if it is "environmentally friendly". Then if it is not, you will have to make it so before you can sell it no matter the cost to you.
_____________________________
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
-Winston Churchill.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 8:02:35 AM
|
|
|
mikeman2
Posts: 155
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
Does anyone know when the Senate votes on this bill?
_____________________________
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
-Winston Churchill.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 8:03:35 AM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1844
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikeman2
I heard that one of the provisions in the bill was that before you can sell your home, a member of the EPA gestapo must come out and survey your house to see if it is "environmentally friendly". Then if it is not, you will have to make it so before you can sell it no matter the cost to you.
You know this is already taking place in a way because the market demands energy efficiency and all without a massive regulation most likely with millions of dollars in pork attached.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 8:53:28 AM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 3052
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
Cap & Trade worked for reducing sulfur dioxide emissions and the resultant acid rain. So we have at least one example of the exact same sort of tax effectively "changing the weather."
-Dan.
While a cap and trade solution may have been successful in this case it doesn't hold that it will be successful in reducin CO2 at all.
That may be. I'm not arguing that it's the best solution for curbing CO2 emissions. What I have a problem with is the irrational handwaving; blindly saying that a tax can't change the weather is ignoring what's already been done.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
acid rain.
A total myth
Another lie pushed by the conservatives. If acid rain was a myth, why did the rain in Wheeling, WV in 1979 have a pH of 1.5-2.2? Why did the rain in Los Angeles in the 80's have a pH of 2.2-4.0? Source. Why has the acidity of the rainfall in NY State dropped from 4.2 in 1987 to 4.6 in 2007? Source
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikeman2
I heard that one of the provisions in the bill was that before you can sell your home, a member of the EPA gestapo must come out and survey your house to see if it is "environmentally friendly". Then if it is not, you will have to make it so before you can sell it no matter the cost to you.
I'd have to see the original bill before I believe that.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 8:59:37 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
I heard that one of the provisions in the bill was that before you can sell your home, a member of the EPA gestapo must come out and survey your house to see if it is "environmentally friendly". Then if it is not, you will have to make it so before you can sell it no matter the cost to you.
That is what I understood John Boehner to say when he read parts of the amendment. I believe the entire nation would fall under the same codes California does.......the state that is bankrupt and has some extremely high home/structure prices in part because of their outragous standards.
I also believe each city will be required to hire three full time people to help enforce these new rules if they need federal funds to help them meet the new standards. Small cities could face huge problems simply trying to live up to the new federal regulations. That translates into higher local, state and property taxes of all of us.
People are too focused on just the increase in direct energy cost. We need to be looking at the big picture and how much this will cost us in every area of our life. The cost of goods and services to the cost to now put our home on the market. We cannot afford this hike in living.
This is also going to cost us more money when we try to buy or build a new home or structure. The structures must meet these new higher standards. For people who are struggling to save the 20% down or those who desire to own or expand a business it could mean their dreams are going to be washed away.
I believe the amendment requires all real estate appraisers to be trained in these new standards and the state either test them or give them some sort of certification. (again more cost to those of us who want a home, building or pay taxes)
< Message edited by LizzieJ. -- 6/30/2009 9:11:15 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 9:05:23 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
I'd have to see the original bill before I believe that.
-Dan.
It is not in the origional bill. It is in the amendment they threw out hours before the vote.
< Message edited by LizzieJ. -- 6/30/2009 9:11:57 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 9:12:11 AM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 3052
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: LizzieJ.
quote:
I'd have to see the original bill before I believe that.
-Dan.
It's not in the origional bill. It's in the amendment they threw out hours before the vote.
Allow me to rephrase: I'd have to see the legislation, not just a single person's interpretation of it before I believe that.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 9:13:22 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
I'd have to see the legislation, not just a single person's interpretation of it before I believe that.
Be prepared to do some reading.
Don't believe it's "not" in there either. Read and study for yourself. I agree with that pro active stance!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 9:24:36 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
survey your house to see if it is "environmentally friendly". Then if it is not, you will have to make it so before you can sell it no matter the cost to yo
I don't believe this is limited to our homes. I believe the energy audit is going to be required before ANY structure can be sold. If the structure does not meet the new energy codes the owner (s) must pay out of pocket to have the structure meet the code before it can go on the market.
I fear this new standard will also effect mobile homes as well.
< Message edited by LizzieJ. -- 6/30/2009 9:40:15 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 10:01:19 AM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Allow me to rephrase: I'd have to see the legislation, not just a single person's interpretation of it before I believe that.
Well good luck on that Dan; sounds like if you did read it, you be one step ahead of the US House of Reps. Of course, if you don't like what you read, it's a little late in the game to do anything about it.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 10:32:55 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
I appreciate what John did. This is from his blog
An Unprecedented Filibuster in the U.S. House: Why Can't We Read the Bills We're Voting On? Posted by Rep. John Boehner on June 26, 2009
At 3:09 AM Friday, June 26, House Democrats released a 300-page amendment to Speaker Pelosi’s 1,200-page national energy tax. No one – not one single Member of Congress – has read the bill that the House will be voting on. Speaker Pelosi promised the American people at least 24 hours to read a bill before a vote in her “New Direction for America” document distributed in 2006 that remains on her website today.
Since Democrats planned to refuse lawmakers and the American public a chance to read the bill, I decided that I will read it – out loud … on the Floor of the U.S. House of Representatives. By tradition, there are three Member of the House who have the right to deliver unlimited Floor remarks – the Speaker, the Majority Leader and the Minority Leader. This is the House equivalent of a Senate filibuster. It may take a while, but Members of Congress and – more importantly – the American people have a right to know what is being voted on.
I watched John on CSpan reading portions of the amendment before the vote. I cheered his effort to let the American people KNOW how crooked this government is.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 11:32:04 AM
|
|
|
todd_t
Posts: 1887
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
|
quote:
Another lie pushed by the conservatives. If acid rain was a myth, why did the rain in Wheeling, WV in 1979 have a pH of 1.5-2.2? Why did the rain in Los Angeles in the 80's have a pH of 2.2-4.0? Source. Why has the acidity of the rainfall in NY State dropped from 4.2 in 1987 to 4.6 in 2007?
Yes, very true. I know for a fact that the Adirondack region of New York has had many lakes heavily damaged by acid rainfall since the 1980s.
_____________________________
Hail Cthulhu
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 11:35:00 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
Yes, very true. I know for a fact that the Adirondack region of New York has had many lakes heavily damaged by acid rainfall since the 1980s.
Todd,
Does it concern you that those who voted for this bill do not understand what they voted for?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 11:36:14 AM
|
|
|
todd_t
Posts: 1887
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
|
I haven't read the legislation myself, so I can't say what they voted for. As for this....
quote:
An Unprecedented Filibuster in the U.S. House: Why Can't We Read the Bills We're Voting On? Posted by Rep. John Boehner on June 26, 2009
At 3:09 AM Friday, June 26, House Democrats released a 300-page amendment to Speaker Pelosi’s 1,200-page national energy tax. No one – not one single Member of Congress – has read the bill that the House will be voting on. Speaker Pelosi promised the American people at least 24 hours to read a bill before a vote in her “New Direction for America” document distributed in 2006 that remains on her website today.
Boehner is being very disingenuous here. As bills are usually hundreds of pages long, were every House/Senate member given 10 days to read it cover to cover, it would bring the pace of legislation to a crawl.
As such, each member's staffers are usually given the task of reviewing each bill (often the executive summary), and reporting the nitty gritty back his/her boss who can vote accordingly - a practice which has been in place for a very long time in Capitol Hill regardless of which party was in control.
_____________________________
Hail Cthulhu
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 11:40:51 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
I haven't read the legislation myself, so I can't say what they voted for.
Does it concern you that they did not read the bill either and don't know what they voted for?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 11:49:47 AM
|
|
|
LizzieJ.
Posts: 257
Joined: 6/30/2009
Status: offline
|
quote:
Boehner is being very disingenuous here. As bills are usually hundreds of pages long, were every House/Senate member given 10 days to read it cover to cover, it would bring the pace of legislation to a crawl.
As such, each member's staffers are usually given the task of reviewing each bill (often the executive summary), and reporting the nitty gritty back his/her boss who can vote accordingly - a practice which has been in place for a very long time in Capitol Hill regardless of which party was in control.
If the staffers report to work at 8:00 am and discovered this 300 page amendment how much time do you believe is required for them to review these pages, understand them, write the report,seek clarification and run to numbers and allow the one voting on the bill to mull it over ?
When I pay someone to do a job. I demand they do the job to the best of their ability. This was a cram job.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 11:58:47 AM
|
|
|
todd_t
Posts: 1887
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
|
quote:
If the staffers report to work at 8:00 am and discovered this 300 page amendment how much time do you believe is required for them to review these pages, understand them, write the report,seek clarification and run to numbers and allow the one voting on the bill to mull it over ?
Once again, which is why the executive summary is often used.
_____________________________
Hail Cthulhu
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 11:59:24 AM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1844
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
As bills are usually hundreds of pages long, were every House/Senate member given 10 days to read it cover to cover, it would bring the pace of legislation to a crawl.
If only we could force legislation to a crawl just imagine how much we could save.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 12:00:28 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Boehner is being very disingenuous here. As bills are usually hundreds of pages long, were every House/Senate member given 10 days to read it cover to cover, it would bring the pace of legislation to a crawl.
As such, each member's staffers are usually given the task of reviewing each bill (often the executive summary), and reporting the nitty gritty back his/her boss who can vote accordingly - a practice which has been in place for a very long time in Capitol Hill regardless of which party was in control.
Well, yes, the massive, national revision of the way our energy infrastructure works should be dealt with at a snails pace, with great deliberation and complete, to use an Obaminism, transparency, don't you think?
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 12:01:18 PM
|
|
|
_jjp_
Posts: 1844
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
If the staffers report to work at 8:00 am and discovered this 300 page amendment how much time do you believe is required for them to review these pages, understand them, write the report,seek clarification and run to numbers and allow the one voting on the bill to mull it over ?
Once again, which is why the executive summary is often used.
which is a major failing with out legislative process and how so many useless little things end up in bills, often bringing a pay day for someone. I wish we had an amendment to the constitution requiring that all legislation stand on it's own and not be buried in 1200 page documents or tacked on to necessary bills.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 12:14:31 PM
|
|
|
its_GO_time
Posts: 554
Status: offline
|
quote:
Boehner is being very disingenuous here. As bills are usually hundreds of pages long, were every House/Senate member given 10 days to read it cover to cover, it would bring the pace of legislation to a crawl.
Works for me. As P.J. O'Roarke said, the wonder is not how the government works, but how to make it stop. 
All those who think this is so great, what possible benefit is there to this country, other than lining the pockets, of the Gore family, GE, and other Democrat cronies, in this bill?
_____________________________
"I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism." -Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 12:18:46 PM
|
|
|
todd_t
Posts: 1887
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
Status: offline
|
quote:
I wish we had an amendment to the constitution requiring that all legislation stand on it's own and not be buried in 1200 page documents or tacked on to necessary bills.
It would take forever for anything to get done then. Plus, both parties use riders all the time - both at the national and state level.
It's just the nature of the beast, like it or not.
_____________________________
Hail Cthulhu
|
|
|
|
|
RE: :: House passes climate-change bill - 6/30/2009 12:26:19 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 4497
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
It would take forever for anything to get done then. Plus, both parties use riders all the time - both at the national and state level.
It's just the nature of the beast, like it or not.
Yes, much better to rush and pass a bill that does nothing of substance and costs everyone dearly rather than eventually passing a thoughtful one which might do something useful.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
